Pre-Trib Rapture Danger To Your Soul

[Ronald Nolette]

What is the wrath this verse is speaking of?

John 3:36 KJV
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Much love!

I am convinced it is referring to the general wrath god has for sin. Because these are unbelievers and have not had their sin removed, Gods wrath on their sin abides on them for they still have it.

 

[Behold]

Well with you it is always hard to tell. YOu write obscurely and evasively so I didn't know which part of the verse or both parts you were referring to. But thank you for the clarification.

What i post is clear as a bell, if you can hear it.


And here is the idea..

You wrote..,"the bible does not say the lake of fire is the Wrath of God"

I wrote, The Lake of Fire is the execution of the Wrath of God against Unbelievers.
Its their 2nd Death.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What i post is clear as a bell, if you can hear it.


And here is the idea..

You wrote..,"the bible does not say the lake of fire is the Wrath of God"

I wrote, The Lake of Fire is the execution of the Wrath of God against Unbelievers.
Its their 2nd Death.

How can anyone deny this in light of what it says here:

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

This is a reference to the lake of fire and it is called "the wrath of God". It's so clearly stated that it's not even debatable.

 

[teamventure]

2 Corinthians 11 about being presented to Christ as "a chaste virgin". You need to read that.

Isaiah 54 about 'blessed are the barren', which Jesus repeated to the crying Jewish women on His way to be crucified.

GOD is sending this coming pseudo-Christ first that will work supernatural miracles, right here on earth, in plain sight. It is to be a test upon those who disregard the Truth of His Word, and instead heed other things, particularly those who misplace their trust in men's doctrines instead of His written Word.

In the Isaiah 54 parable, God 'spiritually' used the idea of a barren womb for one who remains a faithful "chaste virgin" waiting on His return. For those who don't wait, but fall to the false one that comes first, they will not... be found by Christ as a chaste virgin, but as a spiritual harlot. That is the actual idea of the parable which God gave there. I'm not making this up.

Luke 23:27-30
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children."
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, "Fall on us"; and to the hills, "Cover us."
KJV

The day will come when those "Daughters of Jerusalem" will say, "Blessed are the barren,..." It will be because only those who remained as "a chaste virgin" waiting on Christ's return will not be in shame. This is why in the 30th verse those daughters of Jerusalem will wish for the mountains and hills to fall upon them, because of their shame when Jesus returns.

Lord Jesus warned about that shame too in the Revelation 16:15 verse where He said He comes "as a thief".

So don't... try and tell me what one believes about the events leading up to our Lord Jesus' coming don't matter. That kind of thinking is hogwash, and guarantees deception.

So by your own logic, if you are wrong about the rapture then you will fall for the antichrist.

 

[teamventure]

2 Corinthians 11 about being presented to Christ as "a chaste virgin". You need to read that.

Isaiah 54 about 'blessed are the barren', which Jesus repeated to the crying Jewish women on His way to be crucified.

GOD is sending this coming pseudo-Christ first that will work supernatural miracles, right here on earth, in plain sight. It is to be a test upon those who disregard the Truth of His Word, and instead heed other things, particularly those who misplace their trust in men's doctrines instead of His written Word.

In the Isaiah 54 parable, God 'spiritually' used the idea of a barren womb for one who remains a faithful "chaste virgin" waiting on His return. For those who don't wait, but fall to the false one that comes first, they will not... be found by Christ as a chaste virgin, but as a spiritual harlot. That is the actual idea of the parable which God gave there. I'm not making this up.

Luke 23:27-30
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children."
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, "Fall on us"; and to the hills, "Cover us."
KJV

The day will come when those "Daughters of Jerusalem" will say, "Blessed are the barren,..." It will be because only those who remained as "a chaste virgin" waiting on Christ's return will not be in shame. This is why in the 30th verse those daughters of Jerusalem will wish for the mountains and hills to fall upon them, because of their shame when Jesus returns.

Lord Jesus warned about that shame too in the Revelation 16:15 verse where He said He comes "as a thief".

So don't... try and tell me what one believes about the events leading up to our Lord Jesus' coming don't matter. That kind of thinking is hogwash, and guarantees deception.

I didn't say they don't matter but that belief in a certain timing of the rapture is not a salvation issue it is a secondary issue.

 

[teamventure]

The names of the deceived are not written, otherwise they would not be able to be deceived.

Listen to Christ...

Matt 24:23-24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
KJV

That "if it were possible" phrase Jesus used means it ain't... possible for His "very elect" to be deceived.

Do you recall in Matthew 13 when His disciples asked Him why He spoke to the multitudes in parables, and He said it was given for His Apostles to know the 'mysteries of the kingdom of heaven', but to the multitudes, it is NOT given?

Per Jesus' parable of the ten virgins we also know there will be a Christian group that will be deceived known as the five foolish virgins. He will shut the door on those when He comes.

Funny you mention the parable of the ten virgins, the wise virgins were the ones who were expecting the bride groom to return at any moment. The irony is wild.

 

[Johann]

There is so much... that is wrong... with what you are saying.

You haven't read it properly @Davy or if you did it goes against the grain.

Thus the Christian does NOT have to attend some school of intellectualism in order to stay in the simplicity that is God's Word. The level of public education which the majority received today, especially in the Christian west, is adequate in order for each person to open up God's written Word and study while asking God through His Son for understanding by The Holy Spirit.

This has nothing to do with intellectualism-and no one on earth can claim they have a full, precise epignosis on what stands written.

That last step, asking God for understanding given through The Holy Spirit is what intellectualism most miserably fails to do. It doesn't matter how educated one is in man's schools, that will NOT guarantee a PROPER understanding in God's written Word per His Truth (look at Saul who was a scholar). ONLY by The Holy Spirit can the believer be 'directed' properly into God's Truth, and not by us, but ONLY by God Himself through His Son Jesus Christ, via The Holy Spirit. All we can do is plant seeds of God's Word, but it's only God Who can make them grow.

Again, nothing to do with intellectualism-and correct-we should be Spirit taught-does it mean the Ruach will spell each and every word to us re the writings of the prophets-or the whole of Scripture?
So we have it "tugged" and neatly wrapped up-no need to learn via the Spirit?

Johann.

 

[teamventure]

That is exactly... what those pre-trib rapture preachers are doing per Ezekiel 13, divination by saying, "God said...", and He DID NOT SAY.

Ezek 13:1-6
13 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2 "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;

3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.

5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, "The LORD saith": and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
KJV


The "house of Israel" today is scattered among the Gentiles, particularly in the Christian West where they mainly migrated to, and became the founders of the western Christian nations. So this is about US.

That "day of the Lord" connection is about the last day when Jesus comes to fight the nations that will come up against Jerusalem on that day, per Zechariah 14 and Revelation 16 on the 7th Vial.

That means this Ezekiel 13 prophecy is about the 'end', our times.

That passage is about false prophets, not about people who have a different enterpretation of scripture than you.

You are misusing and abusing scripture as a weapon towards fellow believers. God will hold you accountable for that, you better repent.

 

[Davy]

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 KJV
9) For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10 KJV
8) But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10) Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

How do you know this is speaking of the final day when Jesus appears?

Because of the subject Apostle Paul BEGAN that 1 Thessalonians 5 chapter with, which by the way, your pre-trib rapture preachers do not teach you:

1 Thess 5:1-4
5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV

Paul was pointing to 2 major events by that; 1) the final day of this world with that "day of the Lord", and 2) Christ's coming on that day "as a thief", which is NOT to take those in Christ by surprise.

On that same "day of the Lord" when Jesus' coming is, that "sudden destruction" upon the wicked and deceived is to happen, and that... is the "wrath" (God's Wrath) that Paul was pointing to on that day.

 

[Davy]

And are you talking about wrath before or after when His angels gather the elect? Before or after the judgment of the nations? How do you see this exactly?

Much love!

God's Wrath is on the last day of this world, and is the 7th Vial of Revelation 16.

Rev 16:15-21
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

This is within the 6th Vial timing, Jesus warning His Church that He comes "as a thief", and for His Church to be WATCHING, and keep their garments (of white), unless they instead walk spiritually naked and in shame at His coming.

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

That's the Old Testament prophecy of the "day of the Lord" event of the battle that Jesus with His army will fight on the 'last day' when He comes, His only coming. (see Zechariah 14:2; Joel 3:9-14; Revelation 17:14; Revelation 19:17-21; and Zephaniah 3:8) Those armies are gathered against Jerusalem on that day of His coming, so this 16th verse is showing the prep for that battle.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."

On that 7th Vial is when that battle will actually occur. And as per Revelation 10:7, when the 7th angel (7th Trumpet) sounds, the mystery of God will be finished (for this present world), according to His prophets. Thus the 7th Trumpet & 7th Vial both happen on the same day.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV

 

[Davy]

Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So why didn't you NOTE that timing above that Jesus gave for those events... "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."? Why did you bypass that timing He gave us?

 

[Davy]

So by your own logic, if you are wrong about the rapture then you will fall for the antichrist.

IF you know the timings of the coming of both the Antichrist, and Lord Jesus, according to His written Word, then you will also know beyond all doubt the order for Jesus' coming to gather His Church. You won't be in confusion at all. And He will prepare you to make a 'stand' for Him against the coming one-world beast.

If you believe men's word instead, like men's pre-trib rapture theory, then you won't have any idea about the true Biblical order of events for the coming of the Antichrist, and Lord Jesus' single coming thereafter to destroy that Antichrist.

All believers on Jesus Christ have been given the true order of events per His written Word. Some heed it as written, and others do not but listen to men instead, putting their trust in THIS world with men's credentials, and not in Jesus Christ's Own Word. It's as simple as that.

 

[Davy]

I didn't say they don't matter but that belief in a certain timing of the rapture is not a salvation issue it is a secondary issue.

It definitely IS... a Salvation issue, to know the order of events of the end. Otherwise Lord Jesus would NOT have given that order of events about the 'end' to us. And He gave that order in the Book of Daniel, and in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, and in His Book of Revelation. Then there are other pointers to the order of events in the writings of Christ's Apostles.

So no believing Christian living at the end of this world that can read has any excuse.

 

[Davy]

Funny you mention the parable of the ten virgins, the wise virgins were the ones who were expecting the bride groom to return at any moment. The irony is wild.

You just ADDED to that Matthew 25 Scripture to SUIT your false pre-trib rapture fantasy. That's all you did.

1. ALL... 10 virgins fell asleep at the 11th hour, the time just before midnight.

2. When the Bridgroom's coming was announced, ONLY the five wise virgins that HAD PREPARED with an EXTRA VESSEL OF THE OIL, were ready to go meet the Bridegroom.

That reveals right there that the 'five wise virgins' had done something to PREPARE beforehand. They had MORE of the OIL, which represents The Holy Spirit from God.


And when the 'five foolish virgins' were told to go get their own extra Oil, they actually thought they could go to market and BUY the OIL (Holy Spirit)!

So once one knows what those symbols really represent, then it's impossible to get around the fact that the 'five foolish virgins' had put their trust in the world. And what do we see the majority of pre-trib rapture preachers preaching on TV today? PROSPERITY, LIVING IT UP, HAVING A GOOD OLE' TIME, because their false doctrine says, "just be ready", and they don't have clue HOW, because they reject Christ's warnings of the SIGNS of the end He gave His faithful Church to be WATCHING leading up to the day of His return!

 

[Davy]

You haven't read it properly @Davy or if you did it goes against the grain.

No, I did not read it wrong.

This has nothing to do with intellectualism-and no one on earth can claim they have a full, precise epignosis on what stands written.

Your phrases like "precise epignosis" is NOT going to be understood by the majority. It's just confusion with men's intellectualism, trying to create a false sense of credibility.

TRUE CREDIBILITY with helping others in God's Word is to cover it in simplicity so others can understand. That is why God's Word uses so many expressions, metaphors, and parables, because peoples in ALL languages can relate.

And many brethren have had men's seminary ideas and intellectual academia thrown at them so much, which 'men created' loosely based on The Bible, that they can't even understand those simple Bible expressions and metaphors God gave in His Word to make it easier to understand.

 

[teamventure]

It definitely IS... a Salvation issue, to know the order of events of the end. Otherwise Lord Jesus would NOT have given that order of events about the 'end' to us. And He gave that order in the Book of Daniel, and in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, and in His Book of Revelation. Then there are other pointers to the order of events in the writings of Christ's Apostles.

So no believing Christian living at the end of this world that can read has any excuse.

Well then you don't have an excuse in believing the wrong order of events. Every person I've come accross who aren't pre-trib have had less eschatology under their belt than those who are.

 

[Davy]

That passage is about false prophets, not about people who have a different enterpretation of scripture than you.

You are misusing and abusing scripture as a weapon towards fellow believers. God will hold you accountable for that, you better repent.

You are RIGHT that Ezekiel 13 chapter is about FALSE PROPHETS in the Church. And like GOD said there (not me), those false prophets CLAIM that God said, and He did not!

Do you even know what the word 'divining' means? The way God is using the idea there is like those false prophets just dream up stupid ideas out of 'thin air'.

And God's hatred is of the false pre-trib rapture theory of men is STRONGLY SHOWN there when God said He is against those who hunt the souls TO MAKE THEM FLY! That is all about the idea of ESCAPE, which is what the false pre-trib rapture theory teaches, which is NOT going to happen in the last days. Christ showed His coming to gather His saints is NOT until AFTER the tribulation, so there is NO escaping it!

 

[teamventure]

You just ADDED to that Matthew 25 Scripture to SUIT your false pre-trib rapture fantasy. That's all you did.

1. ALL... 10 virgins fell asleep at the 11th hour, the time just before midnight.

2. When the Bridgroom's coming was announced, ONLY the five wise virgins that HAD PREPARED with an EXTRA VESSEL OF THE OIL, were ready to go meet the Bridegroom.

That reveals right there that the 'five wise virgins' had done something to PREPARE beforehand. They had MORE of the OIL, which represents The Holy Spirit from God.


And when the 'five foolish virgins' were told to go get their own extra Oil, they actually thought they could go to market and BUY the OIL (Holy Spirit)!

So once one knows what those symbols really represent, then it's impossible to get around the fact that the 'five foolish virgins' had put their trust in the world. And what do we see the majority of pre-trib rapture preachers preaching on TV today? PROSPERITY, LIVING IT UP, HAVING A GOOD OLE' TIME, because their false doctrine says, "just be ready", and they don't have clue HOW, because they reject Christ's warnings of the SIGNS of the end He gave His faithful Church to be WATCHING leading up to the day of His return!

Oh please, those who focus on Christ's coming sanctify themselves for his return. Those who live for now focus on prosperity. The pre-trib view leads to holiness and focusing on the next life.

 

[Davy]

Well then you don't have an excuse in believing the wrong order of events.

Nah, it is YOU... that has NO EXCUSE, simply because you REFUSE CHRIST'S SIGNS FOR THE END THAT HE GAVE IN HIS OLIVET DISCOURSE, WHICH ARE ALSO THE SEALS OF REVELATION 6!

And just HOW SICK is your vain attempt to falsely try to turn that around against The Word of God? You reveal you're not really interested in The Word of God as written, but are just playing church.

Every person I've come accross who aren't pre-trib have had less eschatology under their belt than those who are.

FYI... the MAJORITY of Christians in the world DO NOT BELIEVE ON A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE.

And your statement is a FLAT LIE, because as pre-tribbers reveal by their own Biblical illiteracy, THEY DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND THE SIGNS OF THE END LORD JESUS GAVE! Their false pre-trib rapture leaders even tell them the lie that Christ's Olivet discourse isn't even for His Church!

 

[Davy]

Oh please, those who focus on Christ's coming sanctify themselves for his return. Those who live for now focus on prosperity. The pre-trib view leads to holiness and focusing on the next life.

How CRAZY a statement is that??? A believer on men's false notions sanctify themselves by following them? That's ignorant!