Pre-Trib Rapture Danger To Your Soul

[Davy]

So for example . . . some will say that the sheep/goats judgment is the same as the great white throne judgment, however, the timing is not allowed in that prophecy. So they ignore the timing. Or some call it a parable, but that ignores the prophetic narrative. I mean, does anyone take Jesus' coming in power and glory to be just parable?

Much love!

Yeah, some do believe that false idea. They are called 'Full Preterists'. Those of men's false doctrine of Full Preterism do not believe in a literal bodily return of Lord Jesus Christ. They even believe the second coming happened back at the time when Jesus appeared among His Apostles.

It should be easy to figure out why those false prophets push that idea and who they work for (not Christ). The devil has no other world to rule over than this present world. So of course he wants us to believe in a Utopia world today, which is actually what the 'Kingdom Now' ideas along with "one world government" are about, because Jesus said His Kingdom is not of this present world time. And Jesus in His Revelation warned us about Satan's coming one-world kingdom established over all nations for the end of this world, prior to Christ's coming to destroy it and setup His Kingdom.

 

[Davy]

It must be said that the different schools of modern eschatological interpretation all contain half truths. They explain and interpret well some texts. The problem lies in consistency and balance. Often there is a set of presuppositions which use the biblical text to fill in the pre-set theological skeleton. The Bible does not reveal a logical, chronological, systematic eschatology. It is like a family album. The pictures are true, but not always in order, in context, in a logical sequence. Some of the pictures have fallen out of the album and later generations of family members do not know exactly how to put them back. The key to proper interpretation of Revelation is the intent of the original author as revealed in his choice of literary genre. Most interpreters try to carry their exegetical tools and procedures from other genres of the NT into their interpretations of Revelation. They focus on the OT instead of allowing the teachings of Jesus and Paul to set the theological structure and let Revelation act as illustrative. See Fee and Stuart, How To Read the Bible for All Its Worth, pp. 249-264.

I must admit that I approach my commentary on the Revelation with some fear and trepidation, not because of the curse of Rev. 22:18-19, but because of the level of controversy the interpretation of this book has caused and continues to cause among God's people. I love God's revelation. It is true when all men are liars (cf. Rom. 3:4; see SPECIAL TOPIC: THE BIBLE (its uniqueness and inspiration)! Please use my exegetical commentary as an attempt to be thought provoking and not definitive, as a sign post and not a road map, as a "what if," not a "thus says the Lord." I have come face to face with my own inadequacies, biases, and theological agenda. I have also seen those of other interpreters (see Four Views on the Book of Revelation, 1998, and The Meaning of the Millennium, several authors, 1977). It almost seems that people find in Revelation what they expect to find. The genre lends itself to abuse! However, it is in the Bible for a purpose. Its placement as the concluding "word" is not by accident. It has a message from God to His children of each and every generation. God wants us to understand! Let us join hands, not form camps; let us affirm what is clear and central, not all that may be, might be, could be true. God help us all!

I have a deep respect for someone who can say-"I don't know it all"-especially on eschatology-like my pastor-and not take a dogmatic stance-but I'm out of this thread-too much disagreements.
I have also learned-from experience-the majority don't "read" properly, speed or skim reading is the norm.
Shalom
Johann.

There is so much... that is wrong... with what you are saying.

Per Isaiah 28, God revealed 'how'... to study His Word, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little. And every word is to be confirmed by two or more Scripture witnesses. That... is the example He set.

Thus the Christian does NOT have to attend some school of intellectualism in order to stay in the simplicity that is God's Word. The level of public education which the majority received today, especially in the Christian west, is adequate in order for each person to open up God's written Word and study while asking God through His Son for understanding by The Holy Spirit.

That last step, asking God for understanding given through The Holy Spirit is what intellectualism most miserably fails to do. It doesn't matter how educated one is in man's schools, that will NOT guarantee a PROPER understanding in God's written Word per His Truth (look at Saul who was a scholar). ONLY by The Holy Spirit can the believer be 'directed' properly into God's Truth, and not by us, but ONLY by God Himself through His Son Jesus Christ, via The Holy Spirit. All we can do is plant seeds of God's Word, but it's only God Who can make them grow.

 

[marks]

Just as the Jew has a covering over their minds whenever the Scriptures are read, so also does a person who believes in pre-trib rapture.

That covering was placed there by 'falsehood' and because the heart believes it to be true, the mind cannot/will not accept the actual Truth.

Interesting thing to say. My mind is veiled?

Naw . . . it's yours! ;)

But forget that . . . I don't think that way . . . nor do I talk that way. It's just accusatory, therefore divisive, and only speaks opinions about others.

Naturally if you hold Idea A to be true, then you won't hold Idea B to be true, but that doesn't mean one is intellectually dishonest, unwilling to look at other ideas. We could all go around saying that of each other. Oh, wait, there are many who do!

Much love!

 

[marks]

You mean some, like me? ;)

Are you amillennial?

Much love!

 

[marks]

That 'wrath' of 1 Thessalonians 1:10 is the same "wrath" of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 which Apostle Paul pointed to. It is GOD's WRATH upon the wicked and deceived on the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus returns to gather His faithful Church.

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 KJV
9) For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10 KJV
8) But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10) Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

How do you know this is speaking of the final day when Jesus appears?

And are you talking about wrath before or after when His angels gather the elect? Before or after the judgment of the nations? How do you see this exactly?

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Interesting thing to say. My mind is veiled?

Naw . . . it's yours! ;)

But forget that . . . I don't think that way . . . nor do I talk that way. It's just accusatory, therefore divisive, and only speaks opinions about others.

Much love!

YES, our minds have coverings over them that are only removed by God = this is not divisive but literal Truth

Visit this thread and ask me again so that you may see the Holy Scriptures for your reference.

The Covering Dynamic

This thread is for Blood Washed Born-Again Believers in Jesus Christ our LORD Acceptance or rejection of this thread does not question your Salvation in Christ. Here is your first evidence to know that pre-trib rapture is not Truth and never came from God = 'timing' The entire Scriptures...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[marks]

Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-33 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Timing is specified to be at the time Jesus returns in power and glory, and then He sits on the throne of His glory, and judges the nations.

Revelation 20:7-12 KJV
7) And when the thousand years are expired . . .

11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

These are clearly different, if you accept the specific wording of each passage for what it is saying.

Much love!

 

[marks]

YES, our minds have coverings over them that are only removed by God.

I don't see that in the Bible. What I do see is this,

2 Corinthians 3:13-16 KJV
13) And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15) But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16) Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

When a Jew turns their heart to God, the veil is removed.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Interesting thing to say. My mind is veiled?

Naw . . . it's yours! ;)

But forget that . . . I don't think that way . . . nor do I talk that way. It's just accusatory, therefore divisive, and only speaks opinions about others.

Much love!

YES, our minds have coverings over them that are only removed by God.

Visit this thread and ask me again so that i may give you the Holy Scriptures for your reference.

The Covering Dynamic

This thread is for Blood Washed Born-Again Believers in Jesus Christ our LORD Acceptance or rejection of this thread does not question your Salvation in Christ. Here is your first evidence to know that pre-trib rapture is not Truth and never came from God = 'timing' The entire Scriptures...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[marks]

YES, our minds have coverings over them that are only removed by God.

That may be a way to look at it, but this isn't Biblical teaching.

2 Corinthians 3:12-16 KJV
12) Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13) And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15) But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16) Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

The veil is concerning the Jews, not gentiles, and concerns unbelievers. "The vail is upon their heart, nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

I'm going to stick with that.

Do you have another passage in mind that our minds are covered to prevent us from seeing/understanding?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Visit this thread and ask me again so that i may give you the Holy Scriptures for your reference.

I always like it when people actually show the passage to which they refer. Why not post the verses at the start?

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

That may be a way to look at it, but this isn't Biblical teaching.

2 Corinthians 3:12-16 KJV
12) Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13) And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15) But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16) Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

The veil is concerning the Jews, not gentiles, and concerns unbelievers. "The vail is upon their heart, nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

I'm going to stick with that.

Do you have another passage in mind that our minds are covered to prevent us from seeing/understanding?

Much love!

This is a SPECIFIC VEIL that covers the mind from SEEING Christ/Messiah from the OT Scriptures.

 

[marks]

This is a SPECIFIC VEIL that covers the mind from SEEING Christ/Messiah from the OT Scriptures.

Yes, that's my point. Were there other passages about veils or coverings you had in mind?

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, that's my point. Were there other passages about veils or coverings you had in mind?

Much love!

Not part of this thread.

They are posted on 'The Covering Dynamic'

 

[marks]

Not part of this thread.

They are posted on 'The Covering Dynamic'

OK. We're done there. We'll just stick to rapture on this thread.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you amillennial?

Yes. We've had discussions before and I made that clear then. I guess you forgot.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-33 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Timing is specified to be at the time Jesus returns in power and glory, and then He sits on the throne of His glory, and judges the nations.

Revelation 20:7-12 KJV
7) And when the thousand years are expired . . .

11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

These are clearly different, if you accept the specific wording of each passage for what it is saying.

Much love!

This was clearly intended for me since I'm the only amil in this thread who believes those are talking about the same judgment, so I will respond. First of all, those passages don't contain any contradictory information that would prevent them from being about the same event. Two passages not having all the same details doesn't mean they are speaking of different events.

Explain how this...

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

...can be a different event than this:

Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[marks]

Yes. We've had discussions before and I made that clear then. I guess you forgot.

I had thought so, but it's hard to keep track sometimes, so I like to ask if I'm not certain.

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ronald, are you on Marijuana Gummies for pain?

READ more carefully, next time...

Listen,
the verse i posted says that God's Wrath, remains on the UNBELIEVERS.

"its a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the LIVING GOD"< ...= having died as never born again : A Christ Rejector.

Well with you it is always hard to tell. YOu write obscurely and evasively so I didn't know which part of the verse or both parts you were referring to. But thank you for the clarification.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Is that so? I've thought up to now that this verse could be speaking of the wrath during the 70th week, or the wrath of final judgment. So now I've got some studying to do!

Much love!

Hi Marks: The verse is specifically referring to the 70th week of Daniel.