Pre-Trib Dispensationalism IS False

[Keraz]

Keraz, define what you mean by "His people". Are you referring to Christians ?

Yes.
His Chosen peoples, Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10

Christians will go to heaven in the rapture/resurrection event - such that to forever be with the Lord where ever He is at.

An unscriptural assumption, that will never happen.
Those who have proved their trust and faith during all the Prophesies things before Rev 19:11, will be gathered, Matthew 24:30-31, when Jesus Returns and will then be with Him for the Millennium.

 

[Douggg]

If there is no church at the end on earth, then you're saying those believers saved during the great tribulation are not part of the body of Christ.

I would refer to believers saved during the great tribulation as the "great tribulation saints".

Based on the use of the word "saints' during that time of persecution, such as in Revelation 13:7 and Daniel 7:21.

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The Jews, Israel corporately speaking, do not presently believe in Jesus. After the times of the gentiles ends, it is said all Israel will be saved, Romans 11:25-26. So, the Jews will turn to Jesus at the time of the great tribulation.

I would equate the Church age as being the time of the gentiles. And the Church taken out of the world before the great tribulation begins.

And those saved during the great tribulation, which will include the Jews corporately speaking as Israel, as the great tribulation saints.

 

[Douggg]

An unscriptural assumption, that will never happen.

Why is it unscriptural when it says right in the text...

1Thessalonians5:
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Take a look at the ending verse of 1Thessalonian4:18...

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Do you see how Paul is repeating himself in 1Thessalonains5:10-11 ?

 

[Douggg]

Those who have proved their trust and faith during all the Prophesies things before Rev 19:11, will be gathered, Matthew 24:30-31, when Jesus Returns and will then be with Him for the Millennium.

Keraz, the Church does not go through the great tribulation. The Jews, i.e. Israel corporately speaking, will go through the great tribulation, becoming believers in Jesus during that time.

Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect is referring to the Jews, fulfilling a promise God made to the children of Israel in Deuteronomy 30:1-6. kjv.


1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I would refer to believers saved during the great tribulation as the "great tribulation saints".

Based on the use of the word "saints' during that time of persecution, such as in Revelation 13:7 and Daniel 7:21.

This is a very weak argument. Nowhere is such a concept taught in scripture. Not even close. Do you not know that we in the church are referred to as saints?

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Anyone who ever belongs to Christ and is saved is part of His church. The idea of there being "great tribulation saints" who aren't in the church is ridiculous.

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The Jews, Israel corporately speaking, do not presently believe in Jesus. After the times of the gentiles ends, it is said all Israel will be saved, Romans 11:25-26. So, the Jews will turn to Jesus at the time of the great tribulation.

I would equate the Church age as being the time of the gentiles. And the Church taken out of the world before the great tribulation begins.

And those saved during the great tribulation, which will include the Jews corporately speaking as Israel, as the great tribulation saint.

None of this nonsense is taught in scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why is it unscriptural when it says right in the text...

1Thessalonians5:
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Take a look at the ending verse of 1Thessalonian4:18...

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Do you see how Paul is repeating himself in 1Thessalonains5:10-11 ?

He was referring specifically to the idea of Christians going to heaven at that point. That is what is unscriptural.

 

[Keraz]

He was referring specifically to the idea of Christians going to heaven at that point. That is what is unscriptural.

Right, The idea of a rapture to heaven of the Church, is not scriptural.

@Douggg has said that his beliefs are set in concrete.
Seems we need explosives to change his mind... Oh wait! That is just what the Lord has said He will do, on His soon to happen; great Day of fiery wrath.
Isaiah 35:4-5 Be strong fear not, for the Lord comes to save you, with His vengeance and retribution. THEN the eyes of the blind will be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped.

 

[Douggg]

Anyone who ever belongs to Christ and is saved is part of His church. The idea of there being "great tribulation saints" who aren't in the church is ridiculous

Does the text of Revelation in Revelation 13:7 and Daniel 7:21 say "church" or "saints" ?

Paul in his letters referred to persons of the church located in Rome, Corinth, Ephesus, Colosse, as saints. And I have no disagreement with the concept or labeling them as such.

But all saints are not the church. It says "saints" in Revelation 13:7 and Daniel 7:21 and not church, because the church does not go through the great tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

Right, The idea of a rapture to heaven of the Church, is not scriptural

Keraz, when does this event take place ?

1Thessalonians4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Keraz]

Keraz, when does this event take place ?

1 Thess 4:16-18, is a Prophecy about the glorious Return of Jesus, as King of Kings and Lord of Lords
He will send out His angels to gather His people, manly those who will be in the place of safety. Rev 12:14 They will meet Him, then be with Him in Jerusalem.

But all saints are not the church. It says "saints" in Revelation 13:7 and Daniel 7:21 and not church, because the church does not go through the great tribulation.

You cannot differentiate between Gods people. John 17:20-23 ONE people of God. Saints, Church, Gods people; all the same.
The main body of Christians do not experience the Great Trib, because they will be in the place of safety, on earth. But Revelation 12:17 clearly says that some Christians must remain in the holy Land, during the 3 1/2 year GT.

 

[Douggg]

1 Thess 4:16-18, is a Prophecy about the glorious Return of Jesus, as King of Kings and Lord of Lords
He will send out His angels to gather His people, manly those who will be in the place of safety.

Matthew 24:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It does not say anything about a resurrection of the dead in Christ in Matthew 24:30-31. According to 1Thessalonians4:16-18, the dead in Christ rise first in verse 16. Followed by the rapture of the living in Christ in verse 17.

So the gathering of the elect by the angels is not the rapture. And there is no resurrection of the dead in Christ in Matthew 24:30-31.

 

[Taken]

If there is no church at the end on earth,

I said, “in the ending days Tribulations from Heaven”.

then you're saying those believers saved during the great tribulation are not part of the body of Christ.

No, I did not say that.

Sorry can't accept that, it's unscriptural.

Those who do not bear good fruit to God are cast into the lake of fire

The Creator Created, Made and Established all things.
Heaven / Earth (habitats)
Out of the Habitats, God created beings.
Out of Heaven, God created angels and Made them holy.
Out of Earth, God created animals and Made them good.
Out of Earth, God created man and Made him good.

God Established Freewill and the concept of Rulership, gods, kings, governors, relationships, fathers, etc. for His Creations.

God Established, Himself Lord God Almighty, Above all.
His Habitat / Estate “Above” the Heavens.
(Pss 113: 4)
And the Heaven His Throne.
(Isa 66: 1)

God has provided His Creations Order, Ways, Means, to Be with Him forever and Freewill to choose to Be without Him Forever.

Rules, Laws, Commands, Statutes, Precepts, Temple, Church, Tribulations, Belief, Trust, Obedience, Comfort, Submission;
all play pivotal roles regarding what individual Angel beings and Mankind beings Freely Choose.

Angels were created “holy” (saints), meaning, With, Having Gods Truth.
(Their Freewill to keep or Reject).

Mankind was / is created “unholy”, meaning, Without, Having the Truth.
(Their Freewill to hear, believe, trust, accept, submit allegiance to Gods Truth, become Made “holy” (saints), for their submitted allegiance to Gods Truth (or not).

The Present Goal, is for mankind to choose from all the Orders, Ways, Means to Forever be With or Without The Lord God Almighty.

The Ultimate Goal, for mankind, is for Mortality to cease, Death to cease. The with and without God become Separated. The with, with God Forever, and the without made lifeless, destroyed and forgotten.

The means (forgiveness, church, rituals, etc,) no longer necessary, of HOW they Became Made with God.
The goal is achieved:
God be their God, and all men with Him be His People, Gods Temple.

Regarding angels, (they Are spirits, and can not cease to exist living). They become permanently separated from God.

Remembering, God has prepared a Place for every individual being He has Created and Made.

2Cor 6:
[16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Does the text of Revelation in Revelation 13:7 and Daniel 7:21 say "church" or "saints" ?

LOL. What difference does that make? I showed you several verses where people in the church are called saints. Are you just going to ignore that?

Paul in his letters referred to persons of the church located in Rome, Corinth, Ephesus, Colosse, as saints. And I have no disagreement with the concept or labeling them as such.

So, why do you try to act as if the reference to saints in Revelation 13:7 can't be to those who are in the church when other references to saints are references to those who are in the church? This comes across strongly as you yet again trying to make scripture say what you want it to say.

But all saints are not the church.

LOL. Where do you come up with this stuff? How can someone be considered a saint and not be in the church? You make nothing but unfounded claims. How can anyone take you seriously when that is the case? It's impossible.

It says "saints" in Revelation 13:7 and Daniel 7:21 and not church, because the church does not go through the great tribulation.

Total nonsense. You are doing less than NOTHING to back up your claims here. I used scripture to back up my claim that saints refer to those who are in the church. You respond with nothing but your own words that you can't back up with scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It does not say anything about a resurrection of the dead in Christ in Matthew 24:30-31.

This is not how to interpret scripture, Doug. How can you relate any two verses together if they can only relate if they contain all the same details? That is ludicrous.

Do you believe that Matthew 24:30-31 is the same event as Revelation 19:11-21? There's no reference to angels gathering the elect in Revelation 19:11-21, so using your flawed logic, I guess that means those two passages can't be referring to the same event?

 

[Taken]

1 Thess 4:16-18, is a Prophecy about the glorious Return of Jesus, as King of Kings and Lord of Lords
He will send out His angels to gather His people, manly those who will be in the place of safety. Rev 12:14 They will meet Him, then be with Him in Jerusalem.

You Don’t recognize the Order, thus skip the Order.

* Gods Estate, Glory, Self is Above the Heavens, where angels, men can not go.
* who was there IN God Was Gods Word.
* when God sent forth His Word out of His mouth, His Word continued to Remain IN Gods mouth.
* Gods Word, ministered, taught Angels in their habitat, Heaven.
* Gods Word, ministered, taught men in their habitat, Earth.
* Gods Word, Returned to God (above the Heavens), where no Earthly man can go.
* Celestial created Angel beings and Terrestrial mankind beings have Freewill, to elect and choose to be With or Without God, by, through, of Gods Word.
* Mankind is mortal, subject to and shall, must bodily die. It’s body’s life is blood, which must die.
* Mankind must Elect choose To be With God, BEFORE his body’s Life (blood) dies.
* Mankind, who Makes no choice, by default, remains Against God, and Will bodily die, and be forever without God.
(Matt 12:30)
* Ancient mankind, revealed their desire and allegiance to be With God, by “their word” (Ex 19:8) and “their obedience” (by their own power) to Obey His Word.
* Historical mankind, was offered “A better testament” (Heb 7:22) Option to Freely Choose.
* Individuals Freely Choose as they Desire.
* The Better Testament Option;
- Mans Belief ( in their Heart), not mind.
(Rom 10:9-10)
- Mans Confessed Belief, To Gods Word.
- Mans willingness to be crucified (body accounted dead) (Rom 4:17) with Jesus’ body.
(One death satisfied) ( Heb 9:27)
Repent and Forgiven (Col 1:14)
- Receive Restoration / Salvation of their soul
(Pss 23:3)
- Receive the Seed of God. ( mans spirit rebirthed from natural to spiritual, never again subject to death, never again able to stand Against God ( because of the Power of God IN them).
(1John 3:9)

Not every individual chooses the Option of the “new better testament”…particularly, noteworthy, Gods People ISRAEL..rather the majority who choose that option are Gentiles.

That Option…expressly involves The Works of the Lamb of God, by, through, of His Authority to Baptize those men willingly having chosen that Option (offering of God).

The end of days Tribulations AND Wrath sent down from Heaven upon the inhabitants of the whole World…(Rev 3:10)

Trib BEGINS with the WRATH of the Lamb of God…(Rev 6:1)
Who is the Lamb of God ANGRY with and Why?

They who did submit to “his” baptism?
Or they who rejected “his” baptism?

And “Where” are those individuals who did (Before the Tribulations sent down from heaven) submit to the Lamb of Gods Baptism?

Can you find in Scripture the answers?

You cannot differentiate between Gods people.

Sure I can. God does…UNTIL…the Division and Separation Has come into fruition. THEN is there …
No difference between all that are in The Lords hand and in Gods hand…Gods people, Gods inheritance.

John 17:20-23 ONE people of God. Saints, Church, Gods people; all the same.
The main body of Christians do not experience the Great Trib, because they will be in the place of safety, on earth.

On Earth? no.
No more than During the First great Trib sent down from heaven, was Faithful Noah and his family “on Earth”.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Pre tribbers explain that by saying the rapture is a secret return

I have responded to people saying a secret return, but do not explain that defines the Rapture.

and that verse you show is the return when all see Him.

No.
1 Thes is the text regarding those IN Christ being summoned up to meet their “Lord” in the clouds.

Men ON Earth, Souls IN Heaven, Souls under the Earth…shall all SEE, the One who was Sent…walked the Earth…was Seen by earthly men…was testified of being Seen leaving and returning from whence He came (heaven)…and His Return all shall see Him…who was sent, called, the Son of man.

Rev 14:
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

But then you must explain away there being only a second coming of Christ and also believe in a third coming of Christ, and scripture only speaks of a second time when He returns. There is no third time.

Gods Order and Way.
Remember God is Omnipresent.
Remember God has multiple names, descriptions, titles….THAT WHICH each DOES Particular things.
( Just like men, have multiple names, descriptions, titles…as example;
A Child calls their male parent dad, not by his name or titles or Mr.___, Dr.___, Pres___, Officer____….even though their dad may be any or those things.

Remember…Earth is Dry Land.

Who was sent, and who shall return…For ALL to See?…”Son of man”.

The “Lord” descending from Heaven to the clouds…? Clouds / air is not Earth.
Exclusive for Christs Church members to attend.

The “Lamb” on mt. Sion (Zion), with 144,000 of the Tribes of ISRAEL (Rev 14:14), during the Trib ministering to ISRAEL (the Tribes) who have been summoned There.
Exclusive for Israel (Tribes) to attend.

The Works of the Lord…is per THAT Title, as used in Scripture.

The Works of the Lamb…is per THAT Title, as used in Scripture.

The First time The Son of man was Sent to Earth…He came AS a humble Servant of God ( in the LIKENESS AS a human ma, IN a body God Prepared For Such EVEN of He Coming TO Earth, He having Particular Things to Accomplish….and Did So.
He was Seen by many humans and for 2,000 + years has His appearance On earth been talked about, testified across the globe.

The NEXT time He returns ALL for themselves shall See Him.

The Next Time He Returns…He does Not come humbled, meek, but rather WITH Power, Might, Authority, Title of Nobility, of Authority and shall be Seated in His Throne (ie king Davids everlasting throne in JERUSALEM), IN His Kingdom (ie Abraham’s promised Land, ) with Christ the Lords Church, His holy angels. The Remnant of (mortals, believers (not converted, not killed, during the Trib) shall begin again building towns, cities, nations…and subject to and of their King…Ada the Son of man, who has returned WITH Power and Throne and Kingdom. ( for 1,000 years… then more to happen).
Why did and does He come AS the Son of man? So human men “could” SEE Him.

Hebrew 9
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Yes. Correct.
And When a man…freely, willingly, is CRUCIFIED with Jesus’ body…God accounts that body Dead, and expressly WHY, such individual CAN receive, Forgiveness for having been Naturally born Against God, Receive Salvation of his soul, Receive The Baptism of Lamb of God, Receive the Seed of God, Receive circumcision of his Heart, Receive the Spirit of Truth…ALL before their PHYSICAL BODILY death…
* Called Gods new better testament offering.
And men Who reach out and willingly TAKE Gods Offering…are guaranteed to Never again be separated from the Lord God Almighty….AND Never Again Stand Against (Sin) God…because the Power of God (ie Christ) Is IN Them….ie CHRISTS Church

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Keraz]

On Earth? no

The proof of where the place of safety is, can be shown by how the 'serpent sends a 'flood', [an army] after them, but the earth opens up and swallows them. Revelation 12:15-16
The Christian peoples are not in heaven, as you so fondly desire. No scripture ever says we go there, After the Millennium, God and heaven will come to us. Rev 21:1-7

 

[Taken]

The proof of where the place of safety is, can be shown by how the 'serpent sends a 'flood', [an army] after them, but the earth opens up and swallows them. Revelation 12:15-16

Earth is dry land.
(Gen 2:10)

Heaven is above the Earth.
(Pss 104:11)

The Earth shall have Tribulations.
(John 16:33)

Peace is in Heaven.
(Luke 19:38)

The Christian peoples are not in heaven, as you so fondly desire. No scripture ever says we go there,

You obviously are unfamiliar with the Term; HeavenS (plural), and where (They) are, while (They) are expressly mentioned nearly 150 times in Scripture!

And also you appear to be unfamiliar with a place mentioned in Scripture 8 times, That being “Above the HeavenS”.

Human Earthly Terrestrial men HAVE gone upward into “the lower Heaven” (clouds),
Since the Day of Noah, in a ship (Ark) to modern days of air ships (Air planes, Jets, Rockets)…even Anciently, historically and modernly, climbing up mountains, feet on holy ground and head in holy heaven.
(Ex 3:5) (Acts7:33)

And Prophecy;
Before God SENDS His “Great” Tribulations to Earth;
So also shall, Those men ON Earth, Baptized by The Lamb of God, IN Christ, be Called up, Rise up, (by the Power which IS IN Them…which is Christ the Power of God, (which there is no “greater” power), To the lower Holy Heaven, above the Earth, in the clouds, unseen by human men ON Earth.

(Gods Tribulations to be sent to Earth are Called “Great”, because they are are so much more devastating, compared to the Tribulations On Earth men have been whining and crying about for centuries).

Surely you must know you can see clouds from your view point being On Earth, but you can not See IN the clouds.
And you definitely shall Not See those IN Christ raised up IN the clouds…because their Body’s have been “Made” glorified, (invisible to natural human eyes).

If you are Not a participant in That Event, you will Not be Privy to SEE that Event occurring, thus the Actual Event will be a Secret to your human Eyes, and process ability of your Logical Thinking Carnal Mind to Understand.

Keraz

After the Millennium, God and heaven will come to us. Rev 21:1-7

Not news or challenged …
The “us” is debatable.

 

[Douggg]

The Christian peoples are not in heaven, as you so fondly desire. No scripture ever says we go there, After the Millennium, God and heaven will come to us. Rev 21:1-7

Keraz, there are 3 elements to the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:16-18.

1. the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
2. the changing of the living in Christ.
3. to forever be with the Lord, where-ever He is.


Matthew 24:31 lacks the resurrection of the dead in Christ. So the gathering of the elect in that verse is not part of the rapture/resurrection event.

Since in 1Thessalonians5:9-11, it says Christians are not appointed to God's wrath to be poured out. Then the rapture/resurrection has to happen before the great tribulation begins. And where is Christ when the great tribulation begins ? In heaven.

So the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:16-18 takes place before the great tribulation begins, and Christians are taken to to heaven to be with Christ, while the great tribulation takes place here on earth.

 

[Davy]

Matthew 24:31 lacks the resurrection of the dead in Christ. So the gathering of the elect in that verse is not part of the rapture/resurrection event.

That statement of course is FALSE. In Matthew 24:31 Jesus was pointing to the SAME IDEA that Apostle Paul covered about the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 verses...

Matt 24:31
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

1 Thess 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV

What does that gathering by Jesus of the saints "from one end of heaven to the other" mean? That's about the "asleep" saints being resurrected and then gathered FROM HEAVEN by Lord Jesus and He brings with Him FROM HEAVEN when He comes! EASY!

What's that 1 Thess.4:14 "even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him"? That's the SAME IDEA Jesus taught in that Matt.24:31 verse about the asleep saints who had already died being gathered by Him, FROM HEAVEN!

Now for those actually CARE about true study in God's Word, if you take a look at what Lord Jesus said in Mark 13:27 with the last phrase about WHERE He gathers the saints from, you will notice it says they are gathered FROM THE EARTH! Did Apostle Paul cover that in 1 Thess.4? YEAH! He did! That is about those of us still alive when Jesus comes, being "caught up" to Him FROM THE EARTH!

This means Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 was REPEATING WHAT JESUS TAUGHT IN HIS OLIVET DISCOURSE about His future gathering of His Church!