And another thing, not every believer on the earth is killed before the fiery return of Christ.
Some are kept by the power of God, and some martyred for their faith.
Some are kept by the power of God, and some martyred for their faith.
Pre-Trib Dispensationalism IS False
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Taken
Well-Known Member
Empty accusation.
WHO is “we”?
“Endure” WHAT
“Caused” by WHOM?
“end” of WHAT?
The TRUTH is simple…Scriptural Knowledge
The UNDERSTANDING beyond a human Mind to determine.
Rev 12:
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Does this passage Reveal a remnant “Converted IN Christ”…Because they Believe IN God and have a Bible?
Rev 13:
[7] And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Is a Believer IN God “a saint”?
Those verses prove the rapture as post trib.
As Mark 13 says.
Why would God separate the brides body. Rapture one part away and then have a second bride?
As they say after such an early rapture there is no more church, no more Christ's body, no more Christ's bride on the earth
The church is one body, God does not raise a second church body after rapturing the first church body.
The true church is one in the faith. All share alike in one body.
There is only one bride of Christ and one bridegroom
Romans 12:5
so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.
1 Cor 12
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink [g]into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no [h]schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
Ephesians 5
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might [g]sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, [h]of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Scripture itself warns…a Carnal Mind (where Logic is desiphered) is wholly unsuitable for Understanding Spiritual things.
The Rapture…only applies to Those IN Christ, His Church, (Aka The Church”) WHOM have Already Been MADE WHOLE…(by the Word, Seed, Power of God).
Their;
* Body crucified (with) Jesus
* Forgiven (for previously been against God)
* Soul restored / saved.
* Spirit born again / quickened.
Their “purpose” ON Earth for the last 2,000 + years….(as exhaustively revealed in Scripture), HAS Been to speak, teach, preach the Word of God and Glorify God through their works.
What IS their “purpose” ON Earth…
During the Tribulation and Wrath, sent down from Heaven?
I find … an ESCAPE and DELIVERANCE from Tribulations sent Down from Heaven taught.
I find … the WAY, HOW, WHOM, WHY, an ESCAPE and DELIVERANCE can Apply to an individual manKIND of being.
I find …
* 144,000. (Of the Tribes of ISRAEL);
* Expressly 2 witnesses;
* 1 holy angel;
Expressly Appointed to speak, teach, preach the word of God to the people upon the face of the earth DURING the Tribulations and Wrath sent down from Heaven….
With the “Church”, having such a long history of appointment, of speaking, teaching, preaching the word of God…
Curiously…THERE is NO Mention of The Church, During The Trib; speaking, teaching, preaching the word of God…
Why not?
What is the Church (ie. IN Christ) Doing?
Where are they?
Where was “Noah”… (and family), when Gods Tribulations and Wrath was being sent down from Heaven upon all inhabitants upon the face of the earth?
Hint. “above the earth” Gen 7:17
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Ecc. 1:9
Noah “prepared” an ark and entered “IN” and was Escaped / delivered FROM Gods Trib and Wrath.
Men “prepare” and enter “IN” Christ and are Escaped / delivered FROM Gods Trib and Wrath.
1Thes 1:
[10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Glory to God,
Taken
There will be Christians during the great tribulation. There will be those who are martyred and those who survive it.
There will also be Christians who escape going through the great tribulation by being raptured out of the world before it begins.
Taken, your posts are confusing to read. The above sentence, as one example. Please express yourself with normal grammar and without all the caps.
Taken
Well-Known Member
The all caps don't offend me. But the way you employ them in your sentences is unnecessary and makes your posts not understandable and unpleasant to read.
I once had a person say to me - "write as you would speak". All caps, generally speaking, gives the impression of yelling at the reader.
Normal grammar is what we are taught in high school by our English teachers.
For example, this sentence of yours...
"I find … the WAY, HOW, WHOM, WHY, an ESCAPE and DELIVERANCE can Apply to an individual manKIND of being."
...could be re-written as...
I find... the "way", "how", "whom", "why" terms, as well as "escape" and "deliverance" can apply to an individual human man or some other being.
Even re-written, I don't know what you are referring to or mean. My general suggestion is to minimize the use of all caps and try to work on making your sentences communicate better what you mean.
Taken,
I re-wrote your above sentence, as...
The rapture only applies to those "in Christ", i.e. His church (aka "the Church" ). Whom, those in Christ, have already been made whole - by the Word, Seed, Power of God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our souls are redeemed the second we receive Christ as our savior. Saved, ensured of eternal life, at that point. Born again. We eagerly await the redemption of our bodies in the rapture/resurrection event. The blessed hope of Jesus coming for us.
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Hebrews 9:27 is referring to Jesus coming for the rapture/resurrection event. Jesus's coming for that purpose completes our salvation - by which, our bodies are redeemed.
Our souls are redeemed the second we receive Jesus as our savior. Born again. Ensured of eternal life.
Now that we are saved, we eagerly await the redemption of bodies in the rapture/resurrection event.
...............................................
There is difference of opinion among Christians as to the timing of the rapture/resurrection event. My view is that the rapture/resurrection must happen before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thesslanonians2:4 which will trigger the beginning of the day of Christ (the Lord) when God's wrath will be poured out.
Christians are not appointed to wrath, but unto salvation....
1Thessalonians5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
The rapture/resurrection event is in verse 10, above. The rapture could happen anytime between right this very second and the day the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.
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9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Correct that God has not appointed us to experience His wrath.
But the devil comes in great wrath to cause tribulations for the church, right up until the return of Christ.
We see trials and tribulations right now; the church is not immune from that.
John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
Correct that God has not appointed us to experience His wrath.
But the devil comes in great wrath to cause tribulations for the church, right up until the return of Christ.
We see trials and tribulations right now; the church is not immune from that.
John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
The Light
Well-Known Member
Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.
Israel was found as grapes in the wilderness. The fathers of Israel were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest but they served Baalpeor. The fig tree has two harvests. The Gentiles are now the first harvest. After the rapture of the Church, there are 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel that are the first fruits of the second harvest.
Jacob had two brides and the second one was the chosen bride. And so it will be.
Taken
Well-Known Member
thank you for the lesson in proper written communication this manner is most convenient for me from my phone
Keraz
Well-Known Member
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Just a dream of the deceived and confused.
There is no scripture which says the Lord will rapture His people to heaven. Only the 2 Witnesses, and they do not go to live in heaven.
Many Prophesies tell us how the Lord will protect those who call upon His Name. We Christians 'escape' His Fiery wrath, by protection. Psalms 91, Isaiah 43:2, +
The Light
Well-Known Member
Yeah. Good point. The secret rapture to heaven will be the protection for the Church.
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Of course, believers do not experience wrath from God, there is another source of wrath believers do experience, from this guy.
Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
- Daniel 7:21
“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, - Revelation 13:7
It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
Taken
Well-Known Member
Post Trib is about Resurrection.
Rapture is about Redemption.
Anciently, God divided many things, including mankind.
Historically, God offered a way, for the divided not with God and those who were with God but wandered to others ways and gods, to choose to become made permanently once and forever with God, by, through, Christ the Lord Jesus.
Key words, permanently once and forever, equated to a marriage, with the separation of death, no longer applicable.
There is no second bride scenario.
The living who are with God, by their own power can leave God, as some have anciently, historically, modernly.
The living who are with Jesus, by their own power as well can leave Jesus.
The living IN Christ, are kept IN Christ, by the power of God, who is Christ; and why that scenario is permanent.
That scenario is revealed in Scripture as the difference between, tasting (which is trying something, and rejecting it by spitting it out)
And eating something (by tasting, liking, eating).
An individual mankind of being becoming Made IN Christ, is Gods offering of an expressly unique transformation, which such Making and timing of the benefits, only applies to those such specific individuals.
All individuals, can choose whatever specific options God has offered for mankind to choose. And for every option an individual elects to choose, the consequence is clearly revealed.
The option of an individual choosing IN Christ, clearly reveals the choice to be everlasting and the consequence to be perfect.
Heb 10:
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
No.
Glory to God,
Taken
Keraz, define what you mean by "His people". Are you referring to Christians ?
Christians will go to heaven in the rapture/resurrection event - such that to forever be with the Lord where ever He is at.
1Thessalonains5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
Right now Jesus is in heaven. At the end of the great tribulation, Jesus will return to earth, and reign here on earth 1000 years.
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Taken
Well-Known Member
There was no church on earth in the beginning and in the ending days Tribulations from Heaven, there is no church present on the Earth.
Glory to God,
Taken
If there is no church at the end on earth, then you're saying those believers saved during the great tribulation are not part of the body of Christ. Sorry can't accept that, it's unscriptural.
Those who do not bear good fruit to God are cast into the lake of fire
Romans 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
Ephesians 3
5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
And the promise of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
Ephesians 4
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in [c]you all.
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