PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

[Randy Kluth]

Ah, so the marriage is in heaven, you just don't believe it is real. OK

I never said it wasn't real. It is the moment we are united, when we are called up "in an instant" to be transformed into Jesus' sinless, immortal likeness. The "supper" indicates a literal celebration that follows. Obviously, the celebration follows the marriage.

So the rejoicing begins when the Church becomes immortal in heaven, knowing that the marriage is being consummated. But this takes place in an instant even though it is depicted, by the vision, as "rejoicing in heaven." I imagine the rejoicing begins among the departed saints in heaven even before it takes place, knowing that it is about to take place "in an instant."

So the celebration follows this instant transformation, and likely happens on the earth, after Jesus comes back. The rejoicing begins in heaven, and the supper takes place on the earth. You seem all caught up on the itinerary, but this isn't normal "travel!" ;)

Nothing blurs. Your yo yo theory blurs.

Actually it does, because a consummating event taking place "in an instant" is, by definition, a "blur." The vision takes place in heaven, and the rejoicing begins in heaven, but it is in anticipation of an event. The invitation is to an event that follows the instant the marriage is consummated *in heaven.* That's where our transformation takes place.

The event, ie the "supper," is important because it signifies the beginning of our eternal inheritance. Our eternal inheritance starts with a transformation in heaven, but actually begins to be lived out on earth, which is where our inheritance is consummated.

And this is important because our eternal existence in fellowship with God must start out on the right feet. Our inheritance *of the earth* must begin on the earth, taking place *after* the Rapture to heaven. Again, this takes place in less than a second.

So no, the supper does not take place in heaven. The rejoicing begins among the departed saints in heaven, and the vision is in heaven. But the inheritance begins here on earth, because it is here on earth that we will begin to enjoy our inheritance forever. The "supper: signifies the beginning of our inheritance of this promised hope, to be "with the Lord forever" in His eternal Kingdom.

Israel is fully restored to her land, and the nation becomes fully dedicated to Christianity at Christ's Coming. In the same way and at the same time, the Church is glorified to show Israel what the Christian hope is. The departed saints who have died and who have lived for Christ enjoy the promise of unbroken fellowship with God. Christianity is the way for Israel to obtain her eternal inheritance of land on the earth.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Except you made that up, nowhere does it say that the scene in heaven where Jesus came from to go to earth and the marriage supper was going on, was 'after' He landed on earth! How dare you accuse others of being unbiblical when you make things up whole of cloth.

All that is proclaimed at this time *in heaven* points to what is about to take place at the Return of Christ *to earth.* The proclamation begins in heaven, but the wedding itself, including the ceremony, takes place on the earth, following the Return of Christ to the earth.

I do not see where the "marriage supper was going on," as you say, while the saints were still in heaven. That is where the initial union takes place, and that's where the initial celebration begins, as well as the announcement of an *invitation* to the supper *to follow.*

Our transformation begins in heaven, but in a second is consummated on the earth, in the same moment of time. So working out an itinerary from beginning to rejoice in heaven to consummating a supper on earth is a needless task for you to engage in.

The important thing is to know what your inheritance will be. You will be united with Christ in an instant, and your inheritance then will be instantly realized in the eternal Kingdom of Christ on earth!

As I said before, Paul gets his statement, "and so we shall be with the Lord forever," from Dan 7, where Christ comes back in a Postribulational context, defeating Antichrist, and granting inheritance of the earth to God's saints. This is our eternal inheritance. This is where we shall "be with the Lord forever." So this, also, is where our marriage celebration really commences--where the marriage supper celebrates the beginning of this eternal inheritance.

 

[Randy Kluth]

TRUTH = 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

TRUTH = The Second Coming of Christ whereby He descends from Heaven with the spirits/souls of the saints and resurrects their dead bodies from the graves.
AFTER that He catches up( raptures) the alive remaining saints to gather them together with those who have been resurrected.

Anyone who speaks against this TRUTH that came from God is ignorant of the TRUTH of His Coming and the Resurrection.

Anyone who, after reading the Scriptures and boasts against this TRUTH does so by a willful deceived heart, mind and spirit.

Agreed. One little set of words Pretribbers cannot get around--Jesus "descends from heaven." The famous Rapture Passage in 1 Thes 4 is therefore not Pretrib at all, which often states that Jesus only comes *part-way down from heaven,* stopping at the clouds! ;)

The Scripture actually indicates that Jesus *descends from heaven,* which means he *leaves heaven* and comes to the earth! This is based on Dan 7 where the Son of Man comes with the clouds and establishes God's Kingdom *on the earth!*

1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Jesus told his disciples not to be deceived. The true sign of his Coming is not an earthly coming, as though a cult group in the present age declares itself a present fulfillment of God's Kingdom.

Rather, Jesus indicated the true sign was to be a coming down from heaven *to the earth,* revealing himself in full glory, as the lightning shines from east to west. It is his *appearance* in glory, and not a so-called "Secret Coming," as so many Darbyites seem to believe. It is the realization of God's Kingdom on earth, and not just some isolated proclaimed "Secret Event" that indicates a change has truly come.

It isn't some current cult on earth, proclaiming itself to be "God's Kingdom." Nor is it a proclaimed "Secret Coming." Rather, it is a transformative event that changes the administration of the earth's political forces from domination by Satan to domination by Christ. It requires *Christ's own appearance on earth,* and not just a "Partial Return" to the clouds!

 

[David in NJ]

Agreed. One little set of words Pretribbers cannot get around--Jesus "descends from heaven." The famous Rapture Passage in 1 Thes 4 is therefore not Pretrib at all, which often states that Jesus only comes *part-way down from heaven,* stopping at the clouds! ;)

The Scripture actually indicates that Jesus *descends from heaven,* which means he *leaves heaven* and comes to the earth! This is based on Dan 7 where the Son of Man comes with the clouds and establishes God's Kingdom *on the earth!*

1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Jesus told his disciples not to be deceived. The true sign of his Coming is not an earthly coming, but a coming down from heaven *to the earth,* revealing himself in full glory, as the lightning shines from east to west. It is his *appearance* in glory, and not a so-called "Secret Coming," as so many Darbyites seem to believe.

pre-fib belief leads to pre-trib theory leads to the yo-yo theory

It actually gets quite amusing in their desperation to keep it going.

The sad and harmful part is when they deliberately twist God's words to keep their idol erect.

And then they transition away from scripture(because there are no pre-trib passages) and begin the intellectual argument phase.

Which also backfires on their theory.

This is why the FATHER sent the Holy Spirit to us = so that we stay on course with "It is written".

 

[Randy Kluth]

TRUTH = 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

TRUTH = The Second Coming of Christ whereby He descends from Heaven with the spirits/souls of the saints and resurrects their dead bodies from the graves.
AFTER that He catches up( raptures) the alive remaining saints to gather them together with those who have been resurrected.

Anyone who speaks against this TRUTH that came from God is ignorant of the TRUTH of His Coming and the Resurrection.

Anyone who, after reading the Scriptures and boasts against this TRUTH does so by a willful deceived heart, mind and spirit.

Yes, it is both the *descent from heaven* and the *resurrection of the saints* that is constantly referred to in the New Testament as our Hope! It is, in fact, the *realization of Christ's Kingdom on earth* that is given to be our Hope. Thank you for your true words!!

 

[Randy Kluth]

pre-fib belief leads to pre-trib theory leads to the yo-yo theory

It actually gets quite amusing in their desperation to keep it going.

The sad and harmful part is when they deliberately twist God's words to keep their idol erect.

And then they transition away from scripture(because there are no pre-trib passages) and begin the intellectual argument phase.

Which also backfires on their theory.

This is why the FATHER sent the Holy Spirit to us = so that we stay on course with "It is written".

All truth begins with the acknowledgement that "truth" belongs to God--not us. We must submit to it--truth will not submit to us.

I used to hold to Pretrib eschatology, because that is what my church at the time taught, and that is what all my friends taught. But when I memorized 2 Thessalonians entirely, I recognized Paul was actually explicitly teaching Postrib Theology!

That's the truth--that's when I changed my eschatology from Pretrib to Postrib. That was back in 1972, I believe.

Since then I've read just about every argument that exists for Pretrib. Not only do all of its arguments fail, being predicated on symbolism, and without explicit theology, but it has no history! Pretrib was never taught in the Early Church.

If it existed in some form at all, it was not substantial enough to constitute an actual movement. The closest thing to Pretrib Theology in the historic Church has been belief in the Imminence of Christ's Coming, that he could come soon.

But that sense of the nearness of Christ's Coming never indicated an effort to prove that "Jesus could come today." It was never meant to imply that Christ's Coming would precede the Antichrist.

It was strictly an effort to urge people to convert to Christ today, since we could die tomorrow. It was showing the relative nearness of God's Kingdom to the behavior of men in their present lives so that they do not delay their repentance and so be taken as by a "thief in the night."

It has always been taught, by contrast, that Antichrist's appearance must precede the Return of Christ. From Dan 7 to Rev 19, Christ always comes in the context of Antichrist's destruction. That is the explicit message of Paul in 2 Thes 2. And Pretrib Theology turns that upside down!

 

[David in NJ]

All truth begins with the acknowledgement that "truth" belongs to God--not us. We must submit to it--truth will not submit to us.

I used to hold to Pretrib eschatology, because that is what my church at the time taught, and that is what all my friends taught. But when I memorized 2 Thessalonians entirely, I recognized Paul was actually explicitly teaching Postrib Theology!

That's the truth--that's when I changed my eschatology from Pretrib to Postrib. That was back in 1972, I believe.

Since then I've read just about every argument that exists for Pretrib. Not only do all of its arguments fail, being predicated on symbolism, and without explicit theology, but it has no history! Pretrib was never taught in the Early Church.

If it existed in some form at all, it was not substantial enough to constitute an actual movement. The closest thing to Pretrib Theology in the historic Church has been belief in the Imminence of Christ's Coming, that he could come soon.

But that sense of the nearness of Christ's Coming never indicated an effort to prove that "Jesus could come today." It was never meant to imply that Christ's Coming would precede the Antichrist.

It was strictly an effort to urge people to convert to Christ today, since we could die tomorrow. It was showing the relative nearness of God's Kingdom to the behavior of men in their present lives so that they do not delay their repentance and so be taken as by a "thief in the night."

It has always been taught, by contrast, that Antichrist's appearance must precede the Return of Christ. From Dan 7 to Rev 19, Christ always comes in the context of Antichrist's destruction. That is the explicit message of Paul in 2 Thes 2. And Pretrib Theology turns that upside down!

You said:
"All truth begins with the acknowledgement that "truth" belongs to God--not us. We must submit to it--truth will not submit to us."

This is where we all belong = at the feet of JESUS = the WORD

 

[dad]

TRUTH = 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

TRUTH = The Second Coming of Christ whereby He descends from Heaven with the spirits/souls of the saints and resurrects their dead bodies from the graves.

No problem, we can call the Rapture the second coming and the return to earth of Jesus the third coming? Either that or show us some verse that mentions second coming?

AFTER that He catches up( raptures) the alive remaining saints to gather them together with those who have been resurrected.

Right, He comes in the air, raises us up to be with Him. WE are caught up as opposed to the return of Christ to the earth when we come down from heaven with Him. The difference is a simple as this, so meditate on this for awhile. UP and DOWN

Anyone who speaks against this TRUTH that came from God is ignorant of the TRUTH of His Coming and the Resurrection.

Anyone that says down is up is out of their gourd

Anyone who, after reading the Scriptures and boasts against this TRUTH does so by a willful deceived heart, mind and spirit.

Anyone that still pretends their yo yo theory that doesn't know up from down is in Scripture or the truth is shooting blanks. You might as well take the verse that says Judas hung himself, and say it means he flew to the moon to do it and then also shot himself in the back and head four times. Misusing the bible grossly is not cool

 

[Timtofly]

7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time.

Many believe the "time, times and half a time" refer to 3.5 years of Antichrist's Reign, immediately before Christ returns to earth. This same period is reiterated in the book of Revelation as 1260 days, 42 months, or 3.5 years.

They are wrong. It was from Daniel's time until the GWT event in Revelation 20.

So far it has been about 2500 years. There are 1000 more years to go. The Day of the Lord is still part of this astonishing prophecy. Most still don't understand the Day of the Lord. This is still considered a mystery to many even at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet:

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

"And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."

 

[dad]

I never said it wasn't real. It is the moment we are united, when we are called up "in an instant" to be transformed into Jesus' sinless, immortal likeness. The "supper" indicates a literal celebration that follows. Obviously, the celebration follows the marriage.

So you think the Rapture is the marriage supper? Funny. What else would we expect from a conflationist I guess.

So the rejoicing begins when the Church becomes immortal in heaven, knowing that the marriage is being consummated. But this takes place in an instant even though it is depicted, by the vision, as "rejoicing in heaven." I imagine the rejoicing begins among the departed saints in heaven even before it takes place, knowing that it is about to take place "in an instant."

Having fun making stuff up? Nowhere does it say the marriage supper of the Lamb lasts one second!

So the celebration follows this instant transformation, and likely happens on the earth, after Jesus comes back. The rejoicing begins in heaven, and the supper takes place on the earth. You seem all caught up on the itinerary, but this isn't normal "travel!"

So the scene is heaven, BEFORE heaven is opened and Jesus returns to earth is...on earth? Totally made up and I hate to say it but....as usual.

Actually it does, because a consummating event taking place "in an instant" is, by definition, a "blur." The vision takes place in heaven, and the rejoicing begins in heaven, but it is in anticipation of an event. The invitation is to an event that follows the instant the marriage is consummated *in heaven.* That's where our transformation takes place.

Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.Sn

Does that sound like an event that lasts a fraction of a second? I guess we can disagree on that.

Since you hazarded a guess, I will too. I would see it more as lasting the whole time more or less of the Tribulation. Several years. All believers finally reunited in heaven and rejoicing, and before we all come back down to earth with Jesus on His return.

Jude 14
14 ... Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints
15 To execute judgment upon all

!

The event, ie the "supper," is important because it signifies the beginning of our eternal inheritance. Our eternal inheritance starts with a transformation in heaven, but actually begins to be lived out on earth, which is where our inheritance is consummated.

What does eating a meal have to do with some trans event on earth?

And this is important because our eternal existence in fellowship with God must start out on the right feet. Our inheritance *of the earth* must begin on the earth, taking place *after* the Rapture to heaven. Again, this takes place in less than a second.

Inheriting the earth comes after we return to it. Your one second marriage ceremony idea is about as sound as your yo yo gathering in the air idea.

So no, the supper does not take place in heaven.

There we have it an outright statement from you. Thanks for that, the verses were already posted showing the scene was in heaven and before Jesus returned! I might as well be debating with the marx brothers or three stooges here.

The rejoicing begins among the departed saints in heaven, and the vision is in heaven. But the inheritance begins here on earth, because it is here on earth that we will begin to enjoy our inheritance forever. The "supper: signifies the beginning of our inheritance of this promised hope, to be "with the Lord forever" in His eternal Kingdom.

A marriage supper is an inheritance? I would think it is more about rejoicing and celebrating being together forever.

Israel is fully restored to her land, and the nation becomes fully dedicated to Christianity at Christ's Coming. In the same way and at the same time, the Church is glorified to show Israel what the Christian hope is. The departed saints who have died and who have lived for Christ enjoy the promise of unbroken fellowship with God. Christianity is the way for Israel to obtain her eternal inheritance of land on the earth.

Israel is restored after He returns to earth which is after the marriage supper. Not connected really.

 

[Timtofly]

It does settle the matter if it's a fact that nothing in the Scriptures explicitly teaches a Pretrib Rapture of the Church. Often it is pointed out that 1 Thes 4 speaks of a Rapture of the Church. But every symbol used in that passage is based on a given Postrib context. For example, we have...
1) a loud command
2) the archangel
3) the trumpet
4) a resurrection
5) eternal life

1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

All of those things appear in the Olivet Discourse where Jesus describes a Postribulational 2nd Coming of the Son of Man.
Matt 24.29 “Immediately after the distress of those days...
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven....they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The coming with "power and great glory" refers back to the Postribulational context of the coming of the Son of Man in Dan 7...
Dan 7.26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’ "

It is true that sometimes the saints are given to escape various kinds of tribulation, including God's wrath against sinners. But we are not promised an immediate escape from problems in this world. And there is certainly no escape from a time when God's wrath is poured out upon sinners in the time of Antichrist. Saints have always had to go through times like this, such as when the Prophet Jeremiah went through persecution at a time when God poured out His wrath on Israel.

Matthew 24 does not say after the great time of distress. Is says after the distress of those days. The distress towards the church starting with the persecution in Jerusalem, putting Peter in jail, and stoning Stephen.

Of course the Second Coming did not happen at Pentecost, a pre-trib rapture. The church had to endure great tribulation for the last 19993 years. The Second Coming is after the church's trib, those days, and prior to Jacob's trouble, the GT.

 

[dad]

All that is proclaimed at this time *in heaven* points to what is about to take place at the Return of Christ *to earth.*

Nevertheless it is in heaven. From heaven that then opens, Jesus and us return to earth.

The proclamation begins in heaven, but the wedding itself, including the ceremony, takes place on the earth, following the Return of Christ to the earth.

Except once again you made that up whole of cloth.

I do not see where the "marriage supper was going on," as you say, while the saints were still in heaven.

We go to be where He is, in the Father's house which is what we call heaven. From heaven Jesus comes down to earth as do we with Him

That is where the initial union takes place, and that's where the initial celebration begins, as well as the announcement of an *invitation* to the supper *to follow.*

Says who? What part of the marriage supper has come tells you it actually is coming soon and back on earth? (as much as you might desire to have it last a fraction of a second to fit your yo yo theory)

Our transformation begins in heaven, but in a second is consummated on the earth,

Says who? Our transformation takes a twinkling of the eye. Then we will forever be like that. You simply assault verses at will to try and pretend they fit your one second yo yo theory and then spam verse to pretend they agree!

in the same moment of time. So working out an itinerary from beginning to rejoice in heaven to consummating a supper on earth is a needless task for you to engage in.

When you pretend the marriage and the gathering in the air and the return to earth all involve less time than a snap of your fingers, yes. Sorry but fantasy is not bible study or sound doctrine.

The important thing is to know what your inheritance will be. You will be united with Christ in an instant, and your inheritance then will be instantly realized in the eternal Kingdom of Christ on earth!

A different instant than the one we are gathered up in the air? So how does that work, are there three instants (Rapture, Marriage ceremony, and return to earth of Jesus) all taking a second or so in total!? Hilarious.

As I said before, Paul gets his statement, "and so we shall be with the Lord forever," from Dan 7, where Christ comes back in a Postribulational context, defeating Antichrist, and granting inheritance of the earth to God's saints.

Except I just looked at Dan 7 and saw no such words or thoughts or anything remotely similar. Funny, that.

This is our eternal inheritance. This is where we shall "be with the Lord forever." So this, also, is where our marriage celebration really commences--where the marriage supper celebrates the beginning of this eternal inheritance.

Yes we will rule with Him one day. Not sure how this is supposed to be some explantionn or the marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven!

 

[dad]

Matthew 24 does not say after the great time of distress. Is says after the distress of those days. The distress towards the church starting with the persecution in Jerusalem, putting Peter in jail, and stoning Stephen.

Of course the Second Coming did not happen at Pentecost, a pre-trib rapture. The church had to endure great tribulation for the last 19993 years. The Second Coming is after the church's trib, those days, and prior to Jacob's trouble, the GT.

Except the actual time Jesus spoke of will not be like any other time at all.

 

[dad]

They are wrong. It was from Daniel's time until the GWT event in Revelation 20.

Couldn't resist this one. So the precise time given in the book covering the end time and that has a special blessing on those who read it (Revelation) are total coincidence?! The times that are the same in Dan 'reeealllly' mean thousands of years!? What a contortion.

 

[David in NJ]

No problem, we can call the Rapture the second coming and the return to earth of Jesus the third coming? Either that or show us some verse that mentions second coming?

Right, He comes in the air, raises us up to be with Him. WE are caught up as opposed to the return of Christ to the earth when we come down from heaven with Him. The difference is a simple as this, so meditate on this for awhile. UP and DOWN


Anyone that says down is up is out of their gourd

Anyone that still pretends their yo yo theory that doesn't know up from down is in Scripture or the truth is shooting blanks. You might as well take the verse that says Judas hung himself, and say it means he flew to the moon to do it and then also shot himself in the back and head four times. Misusing the bible grossly is not cool

Hebrews 8:27-28
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

OT Prophecy = Life of Joseph

OT Prophecy = Book of Daniel

Apostles writings = 1 Thess & 2 Thess , 1 Cor ch15 , 1 John ch2 & ch3

Gospel

and there is even more

 

[Randy Kluth]

No problem, we can call the Rapture the second coming and the return to earth of Jesus the third coming? Either that or show us some verse that mentions second coming?

The 2nd Coming is indicated as the Hope of Israel, the coming of Messiah for Salvation. We all know Jesus initially came in his Earthly Ministry to die, to provide an atonement for sin, and to initiate the preaching of the Gospel so that men know of this atonement for sin before final judgment. The Coming of Messiah for Salvation is to deliver those who accepted the Gospel.

Heb 9.28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Mat 23.39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

To come "again" is to come a *2nd time.*

John 16.22 So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy.

Anyone that says down is up is out of their gourd

Trouble is, nobody is saying "down is up," except you! That is how you *wish* to characterize those you disagree with. But nobody is saying that.

I do, however, say that when people await the coming of a dignitary, they go out to the gates to meet him when he comes. And when they join him in the procession it can be said that they went to join him in his *coming.* This is the sense in which the saints gather to Jesus in the clouds at his *coming.* They join him in his procession, and this takes place, according to Scripture, "in the twinkling of an eye."

Call Paul "out of his gourd?" We must be glorified by being transformed into Christ's likeness. This happens by our being seized from our earthly existence to join in Christ's heavenly existence so that we may return triumphantly with him.

The idea is not "going up" so much as being "transformed by heaven." You dwell on an earthly process, as in a travel itinerary, trying to work out the details of travel to heaven. This is purely a distraction from the point, which is that in order to join with Christ in his earthly inheritance we must 1st be transformed by heaven.

We must return from the place where Christ presently reigns, so that we may return with him. And it only takes a second for us to be transformed in heaven and return with him. It takes place "like lightning." Don't get bogged down with "gourds." Those are your thoughts--not God's thoughts.

 

[Randy Kluth]

They are wrong. It was from Daniel's time until the GWT event in Revelation 20.

So far it has been about 2500 years. There are 1000 more years to go. The Day of the Lord is still part of this astonishing prophecy. Most still don't understand the Day of the Lord. This is still considered a mystery to many even at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet:

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

"And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."

We disagree.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So you think the Rapture is the marriage supper?

What I said is that the commencement of the marriage and the supper virtually blur into a single event. However, I believe the rejoicing that begins in heaven is the commencement of the marriage.

The practical outcome is not a celebration in heaven, but rather, an initiation of celebration on earth as the beginning of an eternal inheritance of the earth begins.

The supper obviously follows the marriage. The marriage is our immortalization. The supper is our inheritance of the earth, ie its beginning.

Having fun making stuff up? Nowhere does it say the marriage supper of the Lamb lasts one second!

Nor did I say the supper lasts one second. I said, the marriage begins in heaven, but for all practical purposes is celebrated on earth, since we meet Christ in heaven for less than a second before he is revealed on earth.

So the scene is heaven, BEFORE heaven is opened and Jesus returns to earth is...on earth? Totally made up and I hate to say it but....as usual.

You seem to have issues misrepresenting what I say. We are caught up to heaven to become immortal--this commences our eternal marriage to God. The rejoicing has, however, already begun, even before the marriage, by departed saints. Their joy is completed with the Rapture of the Church to become immortal.

Within the same instant Christians are glorified with Christ in heaven they appear on the earth with Christ. We only go to Christ for that one second because we must show that we receive our immortality *from him in heaven.*

So time is not the focus, but rather, it is what happens to us and where we get this from. We get immortality, and we get it from Christ in heaven. We do not obtain it for ourselves on earth. We must get it from Christ who is in heaven before his Kingdom comes to earth.

It is not an itinerary that matters when considering how we get to heaven, or how long it takes for us to get there, and how long we must remain there before coming back. It all takes place, according to Scripture, in the twinkling of an eye. We simply must go to heaven 1st as a priority to show that we return with Christ in bodies that are glorified as a free gift from Christ in heaven, because that's where Christ presently is.

We have the marriage supper on earth because that is where we begin our glorified existence. And that is where the Kingdom of Christ is to be realized. What began in heaven is actually celebrated on earth. You need to understand my position properly before trying to attack it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Matthew 24 does not say after the great time of distress. Is says after the distress of those days.

How ludicrous! The "great time of distress" is synonymous with the "distress of those days."

I've also heard it argued that "distress" in one account is not the same as "tribulation" in another account. There is in the Bible the use of *synonyms!* It amazes me as to how far people go in trying to prove an untenable position! T

 

[dad]

Hebrews 8:27-28
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

The other verses you listed do not say a second coming. In the verse in Hebrews it says this

It is actually Heb 9 not chapter 8 and verse 27 is about Paul.

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

When He appears to gather us in the air to have new eternal bodies, that is the salvation spoken of. We already are saved in spirit. So when is that? Obviously the Rapture.

As usual and expected absolutely nothing to do with the yo yo theory. Do you consider that honest discussion?