PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

[David in NJ]

Of course, that's not how I see it. The marriage happens after our transformation into immortals. And that happens at Christ's 2nd Coming. It is a metaphor for our getting to be "with the Lord forever" at his coming for us on the last day.

In fact, Revelation proves your statement as truthful according to His Revelation.

 

[dad]

You're going down the wrong rabbit trail. Once again, this is a *collection* of signs that together describe a particular event, the 2nd Coming of Christ.

The collection may not be what you thought.

They include all of these signs. I'm not arguing that any of these signs cannot be associated with another event. But *together,* they describe the 2nd Coming in more than once place. We see it in the Olivet Discourse and we see it here in 1 Thes 4. If the Olivet Discourse describes this in a postrib context, then 1 Thes 4 is also taking place in a postrib context.

Not if you realize what is what and that there is a Bride Rescue Operation before the trouble begins.

There's a problem with this, from my pov. The very same argument used to prove Christians *can't* be here during the "Great Tribulation" explains that Christians "left behind" are here to be beheaded by the Antichrist. If Christians cannot be here to suffer the "time of wrath" then why do you say that Christians "left behind" must suffer the time of wrath? Something doesn't smell right!

The people who get saved during the Tribulation period were probably for the most part already alive at the Rapture. Yet they never chose or had the opportunity to be saved yet. So they have no option but to be here. Because they are here at the time. Believers today if we are near the time of the bride rescue operation or dead in Christ, have already made their choices and are saved.

And so, Christians who suffer under Antichrist are demeaned as those "left behind," while the Scriptures themselves praise the martyrs under Antichrist as *heroes!* Something's wrong with your theology, in my view!

No Christian is left behind. (aside from so called christians who were never saved and didn't know Him but in name only) So the ones who get saved will suffer because of the time they live in. They are brethren as well. They are saints. They are just not saints who were in Christ before the rescue operation. Kind of like ambassadors being recalled before a big war.

 

[dad]

Of course, that's not how I see it. The marriage happens after our transformation into immortals. And that happens at Christ's 2nd Coming. It is a metaphor for our getting to be "with the Lord forever" at his coming for us on the last day.

Revelation 19:1
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven ..


Revelation 19:7
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready

How would that work in the yo yo theory? Jesus lands on earth, grabs the bride, returns to heaven, gets married, and then returns to earth?

It was after that marriage that we see Jesus coming to earth


Revelation 19:11
And I saw heaven opened ...

 

[Keraz]

Except the one up in the air cannot be the one on the earth. Neither for Him nor us. You do not get to wave one away. Holy people exist after the Rapture.

The meeting in the clouds. 1 Thess 4:17, IS at the Return.
The faithful people who prove their trust in the Lord's protection during all the end time events, will be transported thru the atmosphere to Jerusalem, where Jesus will be.

 

[dad]

The meeting in the clouds. 1 Thess 4:17, IS at the Return.
The faithful people who prove their trust in the Lord's protection during all the end time events, will be transported thru the atmosphere to Jerusalem, where Jesus will be.

So a wedding in the clouds after He returns to earth and then takes us up to the clouds -only to have us all go back down to earth within minutes? That sounds like a fly by night theory. That doesn't fit. He is coming in vengeance to destroy the wicked and He is coming WITH His saints!

 

[Keraz]

So a wedding in the clouds after He returns to earth and then takes us up to the clouds -only to have us all go back down to earth within minutes? That sounds like a fly by night theory. That doesn't fit. He is coming in vengeance to destroy the wicked and He is coming WITH His saints!

The marriage supper of the Lamb, Revelation 19:5-9, will be on earth as per Matthew 8:11 Many will come from the east and the West to sit with the Patriarchs at the banquet for the Kingdom of heaven.
This will happen after Jesus has Returned to reign for the Millennium; as heaven on earth.

Jusus Returns accompanied by ONLY the angel army of Heaven. Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14.
Thinking that humans will be in heaven to return with Him, is about the most fanciful and incredible idea possible. Not Biblical and not going to happen.

 

[Keraz]

Go ask Corrie ten Boom.

Letter from Corrie Ten Boom - 1974

"The world is deathly ill. It is dying. The Great Physician has already signed the death certificate. Yet there is still a great work for Christians to do. They are to be streams of living water, channels of mercy to those who are still in the world. It is possible for them to do this because they are overcomers. Christians are ambassadors for Christ. They are representatives from Heaven to this dying world. And because of our presence here, things will change.

My sister, Betsy, and I were in the Nazi concentration camp at Ravensbruck because we committed the crime of loving Jews. Seven hundred of us from Holland, France, Russia, Poland and Belgium were herded into a room built for two hundred. As far as I knew, Betsy and I were the only two representatives of Heaven in that room.

We may have been the Lord's only representatives in that place of hatred, yet because of our presence there, things changed. Jesus said, "In the world you shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." We too, are to be overcomers – bringing the light of Jesus into a world filled with darkness and hate.

Sometimes I get frightened as I read the Bible, and as I look in this world and see all of the tribulation and persecution promised by the Bible coming true. Now I can tell you, though, if you too are afraid, that I have just read the last pages. I can now come to shouting "Hallelujah! Hallelujah!" for I have found where it is written that Jesus said,

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things:
and I will be His God,
and he shall be My son."

This is the future and hope of this world. Not that the world will survive – but that we shall be overcomers in the midst of a dying world.

Betsy and I, in the concentration camp, prayed that God would heal Betsy who was so weak and sick.
"Yes, the Lord will heal me,", Betsy said with confidence.
She died the next day and I could not understand it. They laid her thin body on the concrete floor along with all the other corpses of the women who died that day.

It was hard for me to understand, to believe that God had a purpose for all that. Yet because of Betsy's death, today I am traveling all over the world telling people about Jesus.

There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

"We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution, rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,
how to stand when the tribulation comes,
– to stand and not faint."

I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it.
We are next.

Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus' sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, "Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation." Then I write it down and learn it by heart.

When I was in the concentration camp, a camp where only twenty percent of the women came out alive, we tried to cheer each other up by saying, "Nothing could be any worse than today." But we would find the next day was even worse. During this time a Bible verse that I had committed to memory gave me great hope and joy.

"If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye;
for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you;
on their part evil is spoken of,
but on your part He is glorified."
(I Peter 3:14)

I found myself saying, "Hallelujah!
Because I am suffering, Jesus is glorified!"

In America, the churches sing, "Let the congregation escape tribulation", but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

Several years ago I was in Africa in a nation where a new government had come into power. The first night I was there some of the Christians were commanded to come to the police station to register. When they arrived they were arrested and that same night they were executed. The next day the same thing happened with other Christians. The third day it was the same. All the Christians in the district were being systematically murdered.

The fourth day I was to speak in a little church. The people came, but they were filled with fear and tension. All during the service they were looking at each other, their eyes asking, "Will this one I am sitting beside be the next one killed? Will I be the next one?"

The room was hot and stuffy with insects that came through the screenless windows and swirled around the naked bulbs over the bare wooden benches. I told them a story out of my childhood.

"When I was a little girl, " I said, "I went to my father and said,
"Daddy, I am afraid that I will never be strong enough to be a martyr for Jesus Christ."
"Tell me," said Father,
"When you take a train trip to Amsterdam,
when do I give you the money for the ticket?
Three weeks before?"

"No, Daddy, you give me the money for the ticket just before we get on the train."

"That is right," my father said, "and so it is with God's strength.
Our Father in Heaven knows when you will need the strength to be a martyr for Jesus Christ.
He will supply all you need – just in time…"

My African friends were nodding and smiling.
Suddenly a spirit of joy descended upon that church and the people began singing,

" In the sweet, by and by,
we shall meet on that beautiful shore."

Later that week, half the congregation of that church was executed.
I heard later that the other half was killed some months ago.

But I must tell you something. I was so happy that the Lord used me to encourage these people, for unlike many of their leaders, I had the word of God. I had been to the Bible and discovered that Jesus said He had not only overcome the world, but to all those who remained faithful to the end, He would give a crown of life.

How can we get ready for the persecution?

First we need to feed on the Word of God, digest it, make it a part of our being. This will mean disciplined Bible study each day as we not only memorize long passages of scripture, but put the principles to work in our lives.

Next we need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not just the Jesus of yesterday, the Jesus of History,
but the life-changing Jesus of today who is still alive
and sitting at the right hand of God.

We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it.

In the coming persecution we must be ready to help each other and encourage each other.
But we must not wait until the tribulation comes before starting.
The fruit of the Spirit should be the dominant force of every Christian's life.

Many are fearful of the coming tribulation, they want to run. I, too, am a little bit afraid when I think that after all my eighty years, including the horrible Nazi concentration camp, that I might have to go through the tribulation also.
But then I read the Bible and I am glad.

When I am weak, then I shall be strong, the Bible says. Betsy and I were prisoners for the Lord, we were so weak, but we got power because the Holy Spirit was on us. That mighty inner strengthening of the Holy Spirit helped us through. No, you will not be strong in yourself when the tribulation comes. Rather, you will be strong in the power of Him who will not forsake you. For seventy-six years I have known the Lord Jesus and not once has He ever left me, or let me down.

"Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him", (Job 13:15)

for I know that to all who overcome,
He shall give the crown of life.
Hallelujah!"

- Corrie Ten Boom - 1974

 

[Randy Kluth]

The collection may not be what you thought.
Not if you realize what is what and that there is a Bride Rescue Operation before the trouble begins.

You obviously have nothing to bring--just quips.

The people who get saved during the Tribulation period were probably for the most part already alive at the Rapture. Yet they never chose or had the opportunity to be saved yet. So they have no option but to be here. Because they are here at the time. Believers today if we are near the time of the bride rescue operation or dead in Christ, have already made their choices and are saved.

Amazing. The Church is gone in a Pretrib Rapture, leaving people to get saved how? Under the threat of death, new babes in Christ find the strength to mature in a year or two, in order to witness with almost no knowledge of Scriptures? I don't think so.

There's not a single Scripture indicating this "escape" with yet-to-be-born saints "left behind" unless you read it into some symbolic vision. And that doesn't warrant faith in it.

I need explicit theology. 2 Thes 2 is explicit Postrib theology.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Revelation 19:1
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven ..


Revelation 19:7
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready

How would that work in the yo yo theory? Jesus lands on earth, grabs the bride, returns to heaven, gets married, and then returns to earth?

It was after that marriage that we see Jesus coming to earth


Revelation 19:11
And I saw heaven opened ...

Are these Scriptures supposed to prove something? These visions are not chronological in fulfillment, but only in the time frame in which John saw them. John saw them one after another, but that doesn't mean each fulfillment is fulfilled sequentially. If that was true, then Jesus will come many times, because a number of the visions, and not just one, have Jesus coming!

Have you ever heard of a "prolepsis?" These visions are prolepses. They portray, in vision form, what is coming as if it is already here or in the process of coming.

John sees the Kingdom coming, but this vision is just a prolepsis. It isn't coming yet.

John sees the Marriage of the Lamb. It isn't here yet--it is just a vision. The fact Babylon is shown after that vision does not mean the fall of Babylon follows the Marriage of the Lamb. It is just another vision, all adding component aspects to what is coming, the return of Christ and his marriage to the Church.

This is what happens when one fails to see the nature of these visions. It is thought that because there is a single narrative that each vision takes place sequentially in time. But they don't. Quite often they speak of the same time period. Sometimes they are flashbacks into the past. Often they look ahead into the future, as in a prolepsis, as I said. You really need to see these visions as many, rather than one chronological sequence, in my opinion.

 

[dad]

The marriage supper of the Lamb, Revelation 19:5-9, will be on earth as per Matthew 8:11 Many will come from the east and the West to sit with the Patriarchs at the banquet for the Kingdom of heaven.
This will happen after Jesus has Returned to reign for the Millennium; as heaven on earth.

That verse says nothing about the marriage of the Lamb. Looks like you aere really scraping the bottom of the barrel for random spam verses.

Jusus Returns accompanied by ONLY the angel army of Heaven. Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14.
Thinking that humans will be in heaven to return with Him, is about the most fanciful and incredible idea possible. Not Biblical and not going to happen.

Jude actiually points out the saints come with Him. Sorry that is news to you. Angels also! You have a lobotomized, myopic view based on a part of the equation.

 

[dad]

Are these Scriptures supposed to prove something? These visions are not chronological in fulfillment, but only in the time frame in which John saw them. John saw them one after another, but that doesn't mean each fulfillment is fulfilled sequentially. If that was true, then Jesus will come many times, because a number of the visions, and not just one, have Jesus coming!

Have you ever heard of a "prolepsis?" These visions are prolepses. They portray, in vision form, what is coming as if it is already here or in the process of coming.

John see the Kingdom coming, but this vision is just a prolepsis. It isn't coming yet.

John sees the Marriage of the Lamb. It isn't here yet--it is just a vision. The fact Babylon is shown after that vision does not mean the fall of Babylon follows the Marriage of the Lamb. It is just another vision, all adding component aspects to what is coming, the return of Christ and his marriage to the Church.

This is what happens when one fails to see the nature of these visions. It is thought that because there is a single narrative that each vision takes place sequentially in time. But they don't. Quite often they speak of the same time period. Sometimes they are flashbacks into the past. Often they look ahead into the future, as in a prolepsis, as I said. You really need to see these visions as many, rather than one chronological sequence, in my opinion.

Except you made that up, nowhere does it say that the scene in heaven where Jesus came from to go to earth and the marriage supper was going on, was 'after' He landed on earth! How dare you accuse others of being unbiblical when you make things up whole of cloth.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Except you made that up, nowhere does it say that the scene in heaven where Jesus came from to go to earth and the marriage supper was going on, was 'after' He landed on earth! How dare you accuse others of being unbiblical when you make things up whole of cloth.

I didn't make anything up. I'm interpreting things based on Scriptural facts. You're the one trying to work out and coordinate all of the events so they fit together according to your preconceived Pretrib ideas! And Pretrib has no theology upon which to base that belief!

I believe the Scriptures teach the Marriage of God to His People to be a matter of covenant. Israel was viewed as married to God under the Law.

Isa 54.6 The Lord will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit— a wife who married young, only to be rejected,” says your God.

The Jews perceived the resurrection to be the apex of their hope.

Matt 22.8 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”

Eze 37.12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.

The Church is now viewed as the Bride of Christ, although we are taught that the marriage will not be fully consummated until the resurrection and our transformation to be "like him."

1 John 3.2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

1 Thes 4.17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The visions of heaven are not trying to literalize metaphors, such as marriage, by creating an order of events, an itinerary. It is left for believers to understand parables and metaphors as they apply to our lives and to our eternal hope. "Marriage" signifies a completion of what up to now has only been a down payment on our eternal inheritance.

We therefore do not need to have it explained what is meant. Marriage in heaven reflects upon the completion of our covenant hope in Christ. We know when that is fulfilled, at the resurrection and at our transformation. And we are told that happens when Christ comes back to destroy Antichrist. 2 Thes 2. Rev 19.

We should not try to impose a timing order, or a sequence of events, on the book of Revelation, based on numerous visions that have no intention of creating a single sequence of fulfillment, from one vision to the next.

TV episodes do this, but not apocalyptic visions! Daytime soaps may continue from episode to episode, but the visions of Revelation all speak of a single apocalyptic event, describing it in manifold ways. It is up to us to recognize that the "marriage" is the consummating event, and not just one step along the way.

In OT prophecy, the marriage depicted the final fulfillment of Israel's hope. It obviously is not a preliminary event. Is is a kind of national "resurrection," a "marriage." That's why Israel is depicted as suffering punishment throughout the entire course of the NT age. It's because the marriage only takes place after the trouble is ended, when the New Age begins.

Isa 62.4 No longer will they call you Deserted, or name your land Desolate. But you will be called Hephzibah, and your land Beulah; for the Lord will take delight in you, and your land will be married.

It does not need to be explained what "marriage" is in the book of Revelation, and where it belongs in the sequence of events. It is the culminating event, when Jesus comes back to defeat Antichrist, establish his Kingdom, and have a marriage supper with his glorified people.

Obviously, the vision of the saints rejoicing in heaven (Rev 19) indicates that when the Church is caught up to meet the Lord, there will be rejoicing. But when it speaks of the marriage taking place, replete with its supper, the whole event blurs into a single episode of Christ's return from heaven to earth to enjoy supper with his people on the earth. It is all virtually simultaneous, as in the "twinkling of an eye."

Matt 26.29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Rev 19.9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

 

[n2thelight]

If no rapture,who are they that come with Christ at his coming in Thessalonians?

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

The next five verses lay the foundation to what is called the "rapture theory". That is all it is, is a theory; and unproven idea. As we study our Father's Word; set aside all preconceived ideas you have about a rapture, and let's see what Paul is trying to tell the Thessalonians.

It is from these verses that the "rapture theory" was born. Let's see just how willing you are to bet your soul on it, when we take a fresh look at what Paul really said. Because that is what you are doing when you rely on it in the last days.

After Paul told the Thessalonians to live right in the community, and search their souls for sin in their lives, they were then to repent of any sin. Paul moved next to what happens when death comes to this flesh body. This topic is important to Paul, for it is the stabilizing factor to the Christian life. It removes the fear that comes from the unknown of ones death. Paul gives this information for one reason, and that is, that we not be ignorant as the heathen are. In other words, Paul doesn't want Christians stupid.

This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.

Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.

Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.

1thess4 (theseason.org)

 

[ewq1938]

So a wedding in the clouds after He returns to earth and then takes us up to the clouds -only to have us all go back down to earth within minutes? That sounds like a fly by night theory.

No, it does not. Do you even know what that means? Do you even know what the purpose of the rapture is? The biblical rapture not what is commonly taught that it is.

(hint: the rapture is VERY brief and VERY temporary!)

 

[dad]

I didn't make anything up. I'm interpreting things based on Scriptural facts. You're the one trying to work out and coordinate all of the events so they fit together according to your preconceived Pretrib ideas! And Pretrib has no theology upon which to base that belief!

I see. So what verse says Jesus lands, and then takes off again for a short wedding before having us and Him come right back down to earth again? Ha

I believe the Scriptures teach the Marriage of God to His People to be a matter of covenant. Israel was viewed as married to God under the Law.

Yet there is a real marriage supper and a bride.

Isa 54.6 The Lord will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit— a wife who married young, only to be rejected,” says your God.

The Jews perceived the resurrection to be the apex of their hope.

Right. So you have a problem with that?

Matt 22.8 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”

Eze 37.12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.

The Church is now viewed as the Bride of Christ, although we are taught that the marriage will not be fully consummated until the resurrection and our transformation to be "like him."

Which is when we go up in the air. Otherwise called the Rapture.

1 John 3.2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

1 Thes 4.17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The visions of heaven are not trying to literalize metaphors, such as marriage, by creating an order of events, an itinerary. It is left for believers to understand parables and metaphors as they apply to our lives and to our eternal hope. "Marriage" signifies a completion of what up to now has only been a down payment on our eternal inheritance.

In other words you do not believe in a real party with real people and Jesus celebrating etc. You think it just 'signifies' something.

We therefore do not need to have it explained what is meant. Marriage in heaven reflects upon the completion of our covenant hope in Christ. We know when that is fulfilled, at the resurrection and at our transformation. And we are told that happens when Christ comes back to destroy Antichrist. 2 Thes 2. Rev 19.

Ah, so the marriage is in heaven, you just don't believe it is real. OK

We should not try to impose a timing order, or a sequence of events, on the book of Revelation, based on numerous visions that have no intention of creating a single sequence of fulfillment, from one vision to the next.

Why not. The order is pretty clear. There is a sequence of events. The culmination of which is the return of Jesus to earth. Before that there was an evil ruler, witnesses,plagues etc etc. Trumpets and vials that all came in...wait for it...order!

TV episodes do this, but not apocalyptic visions! Daytime soaps may continue from episode to episode, but the visions of Revelation all speak of a single apocalyptic event, describing it in manifold ways. It is up to us to recognize that the "marriage" is the consummating event, and not just one step along the way.

In other words you do not understand the order or believe it so you wave it away.

In OT prophecy, the marriage depicted the final fulfillment of Israel's hope. It obviously is not a preliminary event. Is is a kind of national "resurrection," a "marriage." That's why Israel is depicted as suffering punishment throughout the entire course of the NT age. It's because the marriage only takes place after the trouble is ended, when the New Age begins.

I do not recall any event that was a Jewish marriage supper in prophesy?

Isa 62.4 No longer will they call you Deserted, or name your land Desolate. But you will be called Hephzibah, and your land Beulah; for the Lord will take delight in you, and your land will be married.

We got that beat, it is not our land that marries Jesus it is us!

It does not need to be explained what "marriage" is in the book of Revelation, and where it belongs in the sequence of events. It is the culminating event, when Jesus comes back to defeat Antichrist, establish his Kingdom, and have a marriage supper with his glorified people.

Who asked for an explanation? It seems obvious. A great marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven.

Obviously, the vision of the saints rejoicing in heaven (Rev 19) indicates that when the Church is caught up to meet the Lord, there will be rejoicing. But when it speaks of the marriage taking place, replete with its supper, the whole event blurs into a single episode of Christ's return from heaven to earth to enjoy supper with his people on the earth. It is all virtually simultaneous, as in the "twinkling of an eye."

Nothing blurs. Your yo yo theory blurs.

Matt 26.29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Rev 19.9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

So when we are told from heaven by an angel about a marriage supper and that this is true does not that tell you something??

 

[dad]

No, it does not. Do you even know what that means? Do uyou even know what the purpose of the rapture is? The biblical rapture not what is commonly taught that it is.

(hint: the rapture is VERY brief and VERY temporary!)

No one asked you for a thesis of opinion on what you think the Rapture is. Why not just believe that Jesus raises up believers to be like and with Him in the air forever as it says?

 

[ewq1938]

No one asked you for a thesis of opinion on what you think the Rapture is.

I don't think you know what a thesis is.

Why not just believe that Jesus raises up believers to be like and with Him in the air forever as it says?

So people just hanging out with Jesus FOREVER in the clouds of the Earth? Really? That's what you think the bible says the eternity will be?

 

[dad]

I don't think you know what a thesis

I guess you missed the point. No one needs some drawn out spiel about what you think The Rapture is or represents yada yada yada
It is a matter of believe it or not.

So people just hanging out with Jesus FOREVER in the clouds of the Earth? Really? That's what you think the bible says the eternity will be?

If that is your actual opinion of what it means to be with Jesus forever, don't project. we go upp in the air to meet Him and be with Him forever. Not in some coordinate in space. So when He returns to the Father's house after that...we go with Him. When He opens heaven and comes on down to earth later, we come with Him. Did you really not comprehend or was that some pitiful attempt to sound clever?

 

[David in NJ]

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

The next five verses lay the foundation to what is called the "rapture theory". That is all it is, is a theory; and unproven idea. As we study our Father's Word; set aside all preconceived ideas you have about a rapture, and let's see what Paul is trying to tell the Thessalonians.

It is from these verses that the "rapture theory" was born. Let's see just how willing you are to bet your soul on it, when we take a fresh look at what Paul really said. Because that is what you are doing when you rely on it in the last days.

After Paul told the Thessalonians to live right in the community, and search their souls for sin in their lives, they were then to repent of any sin. Paul moved next to what happens when death comes to this flesh body. This topic is important to Paul, for it is the stabilizing factor to the Christian life. It removes the fear that comes from the unknown of ones death. Paul gives this information for one reason, and that is, that we not be ignorant as the heathen are. In other words, Paul doesn't want Christians stupid.

This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.

Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.

Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.

1thess4 (theseason.org)

Simple Truth that a Child of God can understand = thank you for posting


Matt 18:1-5
At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

2 Corinthians 11:1-4
"Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly—and indeed you do bear with me. For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!"

 

[David in NJ]

I guess you missed the point. No one needs some drawn out spiel about what you think The Rapture is or represents yada yada yada
It is a matter of believe it or not.

If that is your actual opinion of what it means to be with Jesus forever, don't project. we go upp in the air to meet Him and be with Him forever. Not in some coordinate in space. So when He returns to the Father's house after that...we go with Him. When He opens heaven and comes on down to earth later, we come with Him. Did you really not comprehend or was that some pitiful attempt to sound clever?

TRUTH = 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

TRUTH = The Second Coming of Christ whereby He descends from Heaven with the spirits/souls of the saints and resurrects their dead bodies from the graves.
AFTER that He catches up( raptures) the alive remaining saints to gather them together with those who have been resurrected.

Anyone who speaks against this TRUTH that came from God is ignorant of the TRUTH of His Coming and the Resurrection.

Anyone who, after reading the Scriptures and boasts against this TRUTH does so by a willful deceived heart, mind and spirit.