PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

[dad]

As I said, the prophecy indicates the general time at which Christ would come, which was 483 Weeks of Years after the decree of King Artaxerxes (457 BC). This is one possible scenario, based on Ezra 7, I believe. This would take us approx. to the year 26 AD, which is approx. the time when Jesus began his ministry.

The prophecy also indicates that Christ would be cut off, which is precisely what happened to Jesus when executed by the Romans. And the prophecy also indicates an "Abomination of Desolation" would lead to the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple soon after, which is precisely what Jesus said would happen in the Olivet Discourse. The pagan Roman Army, an "abomination," arrived to destroy Jerusalem due to a Jewish insurrection.

So you think the abomination of desolation was history. OK

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.


2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.


4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.


5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.


6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?


7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?


9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.


10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

You really think all that happened in history?

The fact the "70th Week" witnesses the termination of offering in the midst of a 7 year period indicates that a major Messianic event takes place at that time, when we already know he was to be "cut off," or killed. So my conclusion is that Jesus' ministry was approx. 3.5 years after which he was "cut off." This is the time many scholars believe that Jesus lived and died.

So those in the dust of the earth were delivered in Jesus' time on earth? You think there was a time of trouble such as never was, or as Jesus said, never will be again in the first century? Sorry. Not even close.

 

[David in NJ]

Says who? The second coming return to earth is one event. The coming to gather the dead and living believers to be with Him is another event. There is no fusing the two. Those who try to weld them together inside their heads have a confused blob of misunderstanding and jumbled screws loose there as a result.

No. He does not come to earth then and no verse in the bible says He does.

Your confused mess of a theory, glued together by inapplicable and off target scriptures shows nothing but your lack of understanding. The term second coming is found where in the bible? Chapter and verse? The place where the gathering of believers in the air is called the second coming where? Jesus comes down to the earth when He calls us UP, in what part of the verse? etc etc etc.

The Scriptures only speak of one Second Coming.

Saying that His Coming are separate events is a lie and is not found in Scripture.

One Second Coming: 1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians ch15, Matt ch24, 2 Thess ch2, 1 John 3:1-3, Hebrews 9:28, Prophet Daniel

 

[David in NJ]

So those who claim the 3.5 years of His ministry is the fulfillment of Dan 9 are talking through their hat. OK

You need to read carefully and study the Book of Daniel.

Christ came and was crucified in the 70th week.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So you think the abomination of desolation was history. OK

Yes, I believe there were 2 AoDs--not just 1. We read of the Roman AoD in Dan 9.27. And we read of the Syrian AoD/Antiochus 4 in Dan 8 and 11-12.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.


2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.


4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.


5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.


6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?


7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?


9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.


10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

You really think all that happened in history?



So those in the dust of the earth were delivered in Jesus' time on earth? You think there was a time of trouble such as never was, or as Jesus said, never will be again in the first century? Sorry. Not even close.

No, I don't believe the resurrection of Dan 12.2 took place in history. It takes place, in my view, at the 2nd Coming and perhaps later. We are told there are 2 resurrections in Rev 20--not just 1 resurrection. The 1st resurrection takes place for the righteous at the 2nd Coming.

I'm not here to convince you to change your thinking, but only to share my views in case you're interested? My views are based on a different ordering of the mentioned prophecies. I'll give you the whole thing in a nutshell, so you can look at how I see the big picture. Then it may or may not make sense to you why I believe as I do?

Dan 2 lists 4 great empires that lead to the 2nd Coming. Thes 4 took place largely in the time before Christ, but the 4th empire was the Roman Empire, whose culture continues to exist in modern Europe. It will be re-consolidated as a pagan Empire under Antichrist. That is set forth in Dan 7. The Little Horn is the Antichrist who reigns over 7 kings and 10 kingdoms, all forming an empire under him.

Dan 8 speaks of a couple of the ancient empires leading up to Antiochus 4, who represented a threat to Israel more immediate in time to ancient Israel than the Antichrist. As such, Antiochus appears to be a precursor of Antichrist, or a foreshadowing of the same.

Dan 9 speaks of a period that leads to the earthly ministry and death of Christ, followed by the end of temple worship by the Romans, the Abomination of Desolation.

Dan 11 speaks again of the ancient empires leading up to Antiochus 4 in greater detail. Dan 12 immediately leaps into the endtimes out of discussion of Antiochus 4 because that is when Rome succeeded the 3rd Empire, Greece. And Rome is where Christ was killed, and the Jewish temple worship brought to an end.

According to Dan 12.1 this is when the Great Tribulation begins, which I define as the Jewish Diaspora of the entire NT era. That is how Jesus defined it in Luke 21.

Luke 21. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

But immediately after this is mentioned in Dan 12.1-3 Daniel's attention is turned back to an overview of major events that concern Israel in the more immediate as well as in the distant future. 2 events are mentioned--the 1st event is 3.5 years, which relate back to the reign of Antichrist mentioned in Dan 7. The 2nd event is the more immediate event of Antiochus 4, relating back to Dan 8 and 11. Both these events were to be major concerns for Israel in history, in terms of their survival as a people.

It was immediately after Antiochus 4 is mentioned that the angel Michael appears to protect Israel. The period after Antiochus is the Roman period, during which Israel experiences her Great Tribulation, the worst punishment in her history. It began with the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and her temple. And it has continued throughout history in the form of the Jewish Diaspora, ending with the Reign of Antichrist.

This is how I order things in my thinking about Daniel. You can devise your own scheme, if you wish? I base all of my beliefs on how I view the book of Daniel, particularly as it relates to the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation.

 

[dad]

The Scriptures only speak of one Second Coming.

Yet where is a verse that says 'second coming'? Let's see it if you didn't make it up. Then we can look at that.

Saying that His Coming are separate events is a lie and is not found in Scripture.

Unless in the air is the same as not in the air at all, you have no point whatsoever.

One Second Coming: 1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians ch15, Matt ch24, 2 Thess ch2, 1 John 3:1-3, Hebrews 9:28, Prophet Daniel

You conflate events and spam verses you cannot discuss or defend.

 

[dad]

You need to read carefully and study the Book of Daniel.

Christ came and was crucified in the 70th week.

Not even close. Total pet doctrine that is unsupportable.

 

[dad]

Yes, I believe there were 2 AoDs--not just 1. We read of the Roman AoD in Dan 9.27. And we read of the Syrian AoD/Antiochus 4 in Dan 8 and 11-12.

Neither were 3 1/2 years before Jesus returned to earth.

No, I don't believe the resurrection of Dan 12.2 took place in history. It takes place, in my view, at the 2nd Coming and perhaps later. We are told there are 2 resurrections in Rev 20--not just 1 resurrection. The 1st resurrection takes place for the righteous at the 2nd Coming.

Except the time we go up in the air cannot be the same time we return from the air.

Dan 2 lists 4 great empires that lead to the 2nd Coming. Thes 4 took place largely in the time before Christ, but the 4th empire was the Roman Empire, whose culture continues to exist in modern Europe. It will be re-consolidated as a pagan Empire under Antichrist. That is set forth in Dan 7. The Little Horn is the Antichrist who reigns over 7 kings and 10 kingdoms, all forming an empire under him.

Thes 4? You don't mean 1 Thes 4? If so, perhaps you did a typo? (as obviously that is about Him coming to get us)

Dan 8 speaks of a couple of the ancient empires leading up to Antiochus 4, who represented a threat to Israel more immediate in time to ancient Israel than the Antichrist. As such, Antiochus appears to be a precursor of Antichrist, or a foreshadowing of the same.

Looking at Dan 8 we see this

Daniel 8:23

And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

That is obviously talking about the end.

Dan 9 speaks of a period that leads to the earthly ministry and death of Christ, followed by the end of temple worship by the Romans, the Abomination of Desolation.

No it covers the time till the end when everlasting righteousness comes in. That was the idea to tell Daniel the future.

Dan 11 speaks again of the ancient empires leading up to Antiochus 4 in greater detail. Dan 12 immediately leaps into the endtimes out of discussion of Antiochus 4 because that is when Rome succeeded the 3rd Empire, Greece. And Rome is where Christ was killed, and the Jewish temple worship brought to an end.

Except the prophesy leaps into the very end at some point in Dan 11 talking about the final days and king.

According to Dan 12.1 this is when the Great Tribulation begins, which I define as the Jewish Diaspora of the entire NT era. That is how Jesus defined it in Luke 21.

It begins in the end as just mentioned.

Luke 21. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Still future.

But immediately after this is mentioned in Dan 12.1-3 Daniel's attention is turned back to an overview of major events that concern Israel in the more immediate as well as in the distant future. 2 events are mentioned--the 1st event is 3.5 years, which relate back to the reign of Antichrist mentioned in Dan 7. The 2nd event is the more immediate event of Antiochus 4, relating back to Dan 8 and 11. Both these events were to be major concerns for Israel in history, in terms of their survival as a people.

Except there is no mention or reference to Antiochus whatsoever in that chapter.

It was immediately after Antiochus 4 is mentioned that the angel Michael appears to protect Israel. The period after Antiochus is the Roman period, during which Israel experiences her Great Tribulation, the worst punishment in her history. It began with the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and her temple. And it has continued throughout history in the form of the Jewish Diaspora, ending with the Reign of Antichrist.

Except that it states clearly when it is talking about in the end of chapter 11

"

Daniel 11:40
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. There are also other crystal clear earmarks of the final leader it is talking about there.

Your view is basically a denial of prophesy and the most important prophetic time in history and the bible.

 

[Keraz]

In the newest of all the end times prophecies, there is no such event where 3 kings/leaders are defeated or overthrown. In Rev, all ten horns remain intact through the entire period until the entire beast is destroyed.

Randy is right, both Prophesying the same thing, each with more info about it.

Says who? The second coming return to earth is one event. The coming to gather the dead and living believers to be with Him is another event.

The Bible only prophesies one Return. Nowhere does the Bible say He will come before then to take out the Church.
That the Lord's holy people are present right up to the actual Return of Jesus, is proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7

 

[dad]

The Bible only prophesies one Return. Nowhere does the Bible say He will come before then to take out the Church.
That the Lord's holy people are present right up to the actual Return of Jesus, is proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7

Except the one up in the air cannot be the one on the earth. Neither for Him nor us. You do not get to wave one away. Holy people exist after the Rapture.

 

[David in NJ]

Yet where is a verse that says 'second coming'? Let's see it if you didn't make it up. Then we can look at that.


Unless in the air is the same as not in the air at all, you have no point whatsoever.


You conflate events and spam verses you cannot discuss or defend.

pre-trib rapture is a made up fable by religious men, there is not one scripture in the entire Bible that supports it.


Hebrews 9:27-28
Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many;
and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.

1 Thess 1:10
and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

Titus 2:11-13
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared(past tense) to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for(future) the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

1 John 3:1-3
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

 

[David in NJ]

Not even close. Total pet doctrine that is unsupportable.

Your lack of understanding scripture is quite evident.

This is typical of most as they believe doctrines of men not knowing the scriptures.

Luke 24:25-27
"Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?”
And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself."

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, I believe there were 2 AoDs--not just 1. We read of the Roman AoD in Dan 9.27. And we read of the Syrian AoD/Antiochus 4 in Dan 8 and 11-12.

No, I don't believe the resurrection of Dan 12.2 took place in history. It takes place, in my view, at the 2nd Coming and perhaps later. We are told there are 2 resurrections in Rev 20--not just 1 resurrection. The 1st resurrection takes place for the righteous at the 2nd Coming.

I'm not here to convince you to change your thinking, but only to share my views in case you're interested? My views are based on a different ordering of the mentioned prophecies. I'll give you the whole thing in a nutshell, so you can look at how I see the big picture. Then it may or may not make sense to you why I believe as I do?

Dan 2 lists 4 great empires that lead to the 2nd Coming. Thes 4 took place largely in the time before Christ, but the 4th empire was the Roman Empire, whose culture continues to exist in modern Europe. It will be re-consolidated as a pagan Empire under Antichrist. That is set forth in Dan 7. The Little Horn is the Antichrist who reigns over 7 kings and 10 kingdoms, all forming an empire under him.

Dan 8 speaks of a couple of the ancient empires leading up to Antiochus 4, who represented a threat to Israel more immediate in time to ancient Israel than the Antichrist. As such, Antiochus appears to be a precursor of Antichrist, or a foreshadowing of the same.

Dan 9 speaks of a period that leads to the earthly ministry and death of Christ, followed by the end of temple worship by the Romans, the Abomination of Desolation.

Dan 11 speaks again of the ancient empires leading up to Antiochus 4 in greater detail. Dan 12 immediately leaps into the endtimes out of discussion of Antiochus 4 because that is when Rome succeeded the 3rd Empire, Greece. And Rome is where Christ was killed, and the Jewish temple worship brought to an end.

According to Dan 12.1 this is when the Great Tribulation begins, which I define as the Jewish Diaspora of the entire NT era. That is how Jesus defined it in Luke 21.

Luke 21. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

But immediately after this is mentioned in Dan 12.1-3 Daniel's attention is turned back to an overview of major events that concern Israel in the more immediate as well as in the distant future. 2 events are mentioned--the 1st event is 3.5 years, which relate back to the reign of Antichrist mentioned in Dan 7. The 2nd event is the more immediate event of Antiochus 4, relating back to Dan 8 and 11. Both these events were to be major concerns for Israel in history, in terms of their survival as a people.

It was immediately after Antiochus 4 is mentioned that the angel Michael appears to protect Israel. The period after Antiochus is the Roman period, during which Israel experiences her Great Tribulation, the worst punishment in her history. It began with the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and her temple. And it has continued throughout history in the form of the Jewish Diaspora, ending with the Reign of Antichrist.

This is how I order things in my thinking about Daniel. You can devise your own scheme, if you wish? I base all of my beliefs on how I view the book of Daniel, particularly as it relates to the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation.

The Final AoD occurs just prior to the Second Coming of Christ = 2 Thess ch2

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Final AoD occurs just prior to the Second Coming of Christ = 2 Thess ch2

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

That is a reasonable position. I personally think the AoD were the 2 items I mentioned, Antiochus 4 and the Roman Army of 69-70 AD. But I'm sure Antichrist will cause "desolations," as well, and also be an "abomination." Acceptable interpretation to me.

 

[David in NJ]

That is a reasonable position. I personally think the AoD were the 2 items I mentioned, Antiochus 4 and the Roman Army of 69-70 AD. But I'm sure Antichrist will cause "desolations," as well, and also be an "abomination." Acceptable interpretation to me.

God is in control of world history, even throughout the 'rebellion'.
Therefore Scripture dictates and interprets world history for us.


We can see that the Book of Daniel covers the First Coming of Messiah and His Second Coming.

Look at this from your post: "The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed."

Compare to Matt ch24 - You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

The Final Act - Zechariah 14 - His Second Coming
Behold, a day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence. 2For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
3Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south. 5You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him.

The LORD did not go out and fight against the Romans in 70AD nor has He since then = Prophecy yet to be fulfilled concerning Jerusalem

Now consider this - Daniel 2:36-45 as this is the The End of the rebellious kingdom of men.

Therefore based on the entire revelation from the Prophet Daniel, we have been given the complete 1st and 2nd Advents of LJC.

Conclusion: Certain Prophecy, as in Daniel(Jerusalem) will repeat until all things are fulfilled = Zechariah ch14, Matt ch24, Revelation

Peace and have a Great Day

 

[Randy Kluth]

Neither were 3 1/2 years before Jesus returned to earth.

Dan 7.25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.
Dan 12.
6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”
7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time.

Many believe the "time, times and half a time" refer to 3.5 years of Antichrist's Reign, immediately before Christ returns to earth. This same period is reiterated in the book of Revelation as 1260 days, 42 months, or 3.5 years.

Except the time we go up in the air cannot be the same time we return from the air.

Actually, that is exactly what I do believe! We are told the "Rapture" will take place in a "moment." This means we are heaven bound and return from heaven in the same second of time. It is a transformation of our bodies in heaven at the same moment Christ descends from heaven.

Many think this is like a 2 stop flight, 1st to heaven, and then back, after changing planes. But in reality, the emphasis is not on the flight, but on the transformation. We go to heaven in a second of time simply to show that we are being transformed in heaven in order to return with Christ to rule in his Kingdom.

Thes 4? You don't mean 1 Thes 4? If so, perhaps you did a typo? (as obviously that is about Him coming to get us)

Did I even mention Thes 4? I was speaking of the 4 great empires of Dan 2.

Looking at Dan 8 we see this

Daniel 8:23

And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

That is obviously talking about the end.

The words "the end" do not always refer to the end of the age. Sometimes it refers to the end of a Kingdom, or the end of an historical period of time, or the end of a judgment. It is context that determines what "the end" refers to. In this case, Dan 8 is speaking of the "latter time of their kingdom," ie the latter part of the Greek era. This was just before the Roman era.

Except that it states clearly when it is talking about in the end of chapter 11

Daniel 11:40
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. There are also other crystal clear earmarks of the final leader it is talking about there.

Again, this is the "end" of the Greek era, just before the Roman era. Context matters when we interpret words. The same word "end" can apply to the end of the Greek era as can apply to the end of the age. The word "end" does not carry its context with it wherever it goes. It must be defined in each place the word is used.

 

[Randy Kluth]

God is in control of world history, even throughout the 'rebellion'.
Therefore Scripture dictates and interprets world history for us.


We can see that the Book of Daniel covers the First Coming of Messiah and His Second Coming.

Look at this from your post: "The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed."

Compare to Matt ch24 - You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

The Final Act - Zechariah 14 - His Second Coming
Behold, a day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence. 2For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
3Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south. 5You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him.

The LORD did not go out and fight against the Romans in 70AD nor has He since then = Prophecy yet to be fulfilled concerning Jerusalem

Now consider this - Daniel 2:36-45 as this is the The End of the rebellious kingdom of men.

Therefore based on the entire revelation from the Prophet Daniel, we have been given the complete 1st and 2nd Advents of LJC.

Conclusion: Certain Prophecy, as in Daniel(Jerusalem) will repeat until all things are fulfilled = Zechariah ch14, Matt ch24, Revelation

Peace and have a Great Day

You said the same thing in post #303! I already commented on that (#309).

 

[David in NJ]

You said the same thing in post #303! I already commented on that (#309).

Yes, but it seems that you are overiding scripture(Post 333) by saying 2 AoDs have occurred and fulfilled scripture.

 

[Truth7t7]

The LORD did not go out and fight against the Romans in 70AD nor has He since then = Prophecy yet to be fulfilled concerning Jerusalem

We Agree, 70AD played no part in fulfillment of Matthew 24

Daniel's AOD, the great tribulation, fulfilling of the gentiles, and the second coming are "Future" events unfulfilled

 

[David in NJ]

We Agree, 70AD played no part in fulfillment of Matthew 24

Daniel's AOD, the great tribulation, fulfilling of the gentiles, and the second coming are "Future" events unfulfilled

If we keep agreeing on scripture, ALL of it, then we walk in harmony with the Spirit of Truth.

For it is written: "no lie is of the truth"

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, but it seems that you are overiding scripture(Post 333) by saying 2 AoDs have occurred and fulfilled scripture.

Yes, your post #303 emphasized (to me) that there is the 70 AD interpretation of the Olivet Discourse, along with reference to the "end of the age." And Daniel, of course, would do the same. This is not Preterism. This is an historical interpretation of the Olivet Discourse, with reference to the end of the age and the 2nd Coming, as well.

How we interpret the AoD is of little consequence in this respect. So repeating your argument about the Olivet Discourse and Daniel being about both the end of the age and 70 AD seems irrelevant. We agree on that.

As I said, the AoD, in my view, is treated differently in Dan 9.27 than it is in Dan 8 and 11-12. I get this from referencing a good number of commentaries, as well as the histories surrounding the reign of Antiochus 4.

In my view, Antiochus 4 fits perfectly well in Dan 8 as the "fierce king" towards the end of the Greek Kingdom. According to the account he will cause "great devastation" as well as destroy God's People. As a pagan out of the heritage of the Greek Empire he is an "abomination." And as a destroyer he "desolates." That is, he is an "abomination of desolation."

This is confirmed in ch. 11, where he is called a "contemptible person," setting up the Abomination of Desolation. In "setting up" the AoD he is not the AoD, but rather, a force imposing desecration upon the temple worship.

Finally, this is reiterated as an important event in the life of Israel in ch. 12, where Antiochus 4 is assigned a specific number of days, 1290 days. This has been historically verified by some. This is different from the 1260 days, or the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign--Dan 7 and Dan 12.7.

But the Abomination of Desolation mentioned in Dan 9 is very different. It is not mentioned to be the "fierce king" or the "contemptible person." And he doesn't "set up" the AoD--rather, the AoD is an Army.

It is the *people* of the prince to come that is the AoD, which is obviously an army coming to destroy, or desolate, Jerusalem and its temple. It doesn't "set up" the AoD--it *is* the AoD!

That took place in 70 AD. It was an abomination because it was a pagan army issuing out of the Roman Empire, and it "desolated" the city and the sanctuary. This is precisely what Jesus referred to in his Olivet Discourse, in which armies surround Jerusalem like "vultures"--Luke 21.20. This could only have referred to the 70 AD event, in my view.