PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

[dad]

pre-trib rapture is a made up fable by religious men, there is not one scripture in the entire Bible that supports it.

Oh really? Guess that settles it then

Hebrews 9:27-28
Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many;
and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.

What else would you call it when not only our spirits but bodies are saved and raised up?

1 Thess 1:10
and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

So we are raised before the coming period of wrath. Thanks for that.

Titus 2:11-13
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared(past tense) to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for(future) the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

What sort of blessed hope would it be for the Bride of Christ to go through the hellish Great Tribulation? Our hope is Jesus raising us in the air to forever be with Him where He is. That includes coming back down to earth when He does!

1 John 3:1-3
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

All the verses you post support my position.

 

[dad]

Your lack of understanding scripture is quite evident.

This is typical of most as they believe doctrines of men not knowing the scriptures.

Luke 24:25-27
"Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?”
And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself."

Try not to be a sore loser. It is obvious your position was indefensible. Come on over to the winning side. The water is fine here.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Oh really? Guess that settles it then

It does settle the matter if it's a fact that nothing in the Scriptures explicitly teaches a Pretrib Rapture of the Church. Often it is pointed out that 1 Thes 4 speaks of a Rapture of the Church. But every symbol used in that passage is based on a given Postrib context. For example, we have...
1) a loud command
2) the archangel
3) the trumpet
4) a resurrection
5) eternal life

1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

All of those things appear in the Olivet Discourse where Jesus describes a Postribulational 2nd Coming of the Son of Man.
Matt 24.29 “Immediately after the distress of those days...
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven....they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The coming with "power and great glory" refers back to the Postribulational context of the coming of the Son of Man in Dan 7...
Dan 7.26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’ "

It is true that sometimes the saints are given to escape various kinds of tribulation, including God's wrath against sinners. But we are not promised an immediate escape from problems in this world. And there is certainly no escape from a time when God's wrath is poured out upon sinners in the time of Antichrist. Saints have always had to go through times like this, such as when the Prophet Jeremiah went through persecution at a time when God poured out His wrath on Israel.

 

[David in NJ]

Oh really? Guess that settles it then


What else would you call it when not only our spirits but bodies are saved and raised up?


So we are raised before the coming period of wrath. Thanks for that.



What sort of blessed hope would it be for the Bride of Christ to go through the hellish Great Tribulation? Our hope is Jesus raising us in the air to forever be with Him where He is. That includes coming back down to earth when He does!


All the verses you post support my position.

pre-trib has no standing in scripture for it only stands apart from the Holy Scriptures, propped up by religion

This is why, no pre-fibber can post a single declaration, prophecy or allegorical truth from the Holy Scriptures stating pre-trib rapture.

All those verses, and more, deny the falsehood of more then one Second Coming of Messiah.

Have you ever considered these two commandments:

'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind'
and 'Your neighbor as yourself.'" - Luke 10:27

pre-fib rapture violates those two commandments as well as "you shall not lie" AND "you shall not bear false witness"

How much more is God worthy of being both loved and feared so that we do not sin against Him..........

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

 

[dad]

Dan 7.25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.
Dan 12.
6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”
7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time.

Many believe the "time, times and half a time" refer to 3.5 years of Antichrist's Reign, immediately before Christ returns to earth. This same period is reiterated in the book of Revelation as 1260 days, 42 months, or 3.5 years.

The big mouth Antichrist, that man of sin, the beast is well known for speaking. It is a trait of his. It nails who it is. He was not here in the first century.

Actually, that is exactly what I do believe! We are told the "Rapture" will take place in a "moment." This means we are heaven bound and return from heaven in the same second of time. It is a transformation of our bodies in heaven at the same moment Christ descends from heaven.

The old yo yo theory. Ridiculous. But thanks for admitting it!

Many think this is like a 2 stop flight, 1st to heaven, and then back, after changing planes. But in reality, the emphasis is not on the flight, but on the transformation. We go to heaven in a second of time simply to show that we are being transformed in heaven in order to return with Christ to rule in his Kingdom.

Rev 19 has the marriage supper announced in heaven from the throne no less. Later it has Jesus going from heaven to war on earth. How do you fit that with the yo yo theory where Jesus returns first, gets the Bride, then snaps back to earth immediately??

Did I even mention Thes 4? I was speaking of the 4 great empires of Dan 2.

OK, what about them?

The words "the end" do not always refer to the end of the age. Sometimes it refers to the end of a Kingdom, or the end of an historical period of time, or the end of a judgment. It is context that determines what "the end" refers to. In this case, Dan 8 is speaking of the "latter time of their kingdom," ie the latter part of the Greek era. This was just before the Roman era.

The fourth kingdom which is the same as the legs of iron in the Dan 2 prophetic statue was Rome. The end comes when that kingdom in it's final form (the feet and toes) exist. Since all kingdoms are smashed to smithereens then, the end is the end.

Again, this is the "end" of the Greek era, just before the Roman era. Context matters when we interpret words. The same word "end" can apply to the end of the Greek era as can apply to the end of the age. The word "end" does not carry its context with it wherever it goes. It must be defined in each place the word is used.

No. Rome was after Greece. The end of the four kingdoms involves the last kingdomm. You do not get to run back in ancient history and insert the word 'end' wherever it fits a pet theory. Sorry

 

[Randy Kluth]

The big mouth Antichrist, that man of sin, the beast is well known for speaking. It is a trait of his. It nails who it is. He was not here in the first century.

It really depends on which "Big Mouth" you refer to? There have been lots of "Big Mouths" in history. The Boastful Little Horn in Dan 7 is the future Antichrist, in my view. Antiochus 4, in Dan 8 and 11-12 is also a boastful creature. see Dan 11.36

The old yo yo theory. Ridiculous. But thanks for admitting it!

The Scriptures indicate Christ is coming again in a split second. Call it "yo yo," it is what it is.
1 Cor 15.51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

You don't get any extra points for insulting another interpretation, particularly when it is based on Scriptures.

You, on the other hand, have to answer to God for denying what is in the Scriptures.
1) 2 Thes 2 pointedly declares that the 2nd Coming *for the Church* takes place *after* the revelation and judgment of Antichrist.
2) The 2nd Coming for the Church is depicted as taking place "in a flash."

But I can more graciously acknowledge that many good Christians have a different opinion than my own.

 

[dad]

It does settle the matter if it's a fact that nothing in the Scriptures explicitly teaches a Pretrib Rapture of the Church. Often it is pointed out that 1 Thes 4 speaks of a Rapture of the Church. But every symbol used in that passage is based on a given Postrib context. For example, we have...
1) a loud command

What is post trib about a loud sound?

2) the archangel

Gabriel was here in Daniels day. How is it that you seem to think an archangel could only appear once in the end time?

3) the trumpet
4) a resurrection

How would Jesus speaking and raising and recusing His Own Bride from a coming terror war be post trib? You don't get to declare something and make it so, especially when it makes no sense and is not bible.

5) eternal life

We have eternal life now. The Rapture is when our bodies are raised also and we get an eternal body like Jesus has. In no way would the words eternal life be limited to the return to earth on day of Christ!

1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

All of those things appear in the Olivet Discourse where Jesus describes a Postribulational 2nd Coming of the Son of Man.
Matt 24.29 “Immediately after the distress of those days...

The return to earth is after those days. You are a confused hyper conflater of passages and prophesies.

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven....they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The coming with "power and great glory" refers back to the Postribulational context of the coming of the Son of Man in Dan 7...
Dan 7.26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’ "

When Jesus is seen by all the world (as He won't be in the Rapture) it will be in power and glory. If you could pause your obsessed conflating for a moment it should be easy to see.

It is true that sometimes the saints are given to escape various kinds of tribulation, including God's wrath against sinners. But we are not promised an immediate escape from problems in this world.

That depends on who 'we' are! The believers in Christ dead and alive are promised an escape from earth up into the air. We have an escape plan in place and ready to go! That is our hope. The devil can rage and huff and puff all he likes, he can't have us! We're special. Elect. Undet the protection of one greater than the one in the world.

And there is certainly no escape from a time when God's wrath is poured out upon sinners in the time of Antichrist.

Not for those it is directed against! For us, there is a way of escape. God has the last laugh. The people left behind will have no excuse. Yet His mercy endures forever and He still sends salvation in that time to vast multitudes of new believers! Amazing. Seeing prophesy in it's proper light shows the heart of God!

Saints have always had to go through times like this, such as when the Prophet Jeremiah went through persecution at a time when God poured out His wrath on Israel.

Many are the afflictions of the righteous but the Lord delivers them out of them all. The greatest slam dunk deliverance of all time is the Rapture!

 

[dad]

pre-trib has no standing in scripture for it only stands apart from the Holy Scriptures, propped up by religion

This is why, no pre-fibber can post a single declaration, prophecy or allegorical truth from the Holy Scriptures stating pre-trib rapture.

All those verses, and more, deny the falsehood of more then one Second Coming of Messiah.

Have you ever considered these two commandments:

'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind'
and 'Your neighbor as yourself.'" - Luke 10:27

pre-fib rapture violates those two commandments a swell as "you shall not lie" AND "you shall not bear false witness"

How much more is God worthy of being both loved and feared so that we do not sin against Him..........

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

Confused accuser of the saints. Run along if you can't make a cohesive case for your confused prophesy conflation attempts.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What is post trib about a loud sound?

In Matt 24, it is depicted as this....
Matt 24.31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call.

Gabriel was here in Daniels day. How is it that you seem to think an archangel could only appear once in the end time?

I'm not arguing that angels only appear once. I'm arguing for a specific historical context, replete with a combination of various indicators. They include a loud sound, a trumpet, an angel, a resurrection, a glorious Kingdom, the Son of Man, etc.

How would Jesus speaking and raising and recusing His Own Bride from a coming terror war be post trib? You don't get to declare something and make it so, especially when it makes no sense and is not bible.

I've been posting Bible, brother! I'm not making anything so. I believe what the Scriptures indicate is a Postrib context. I don't have to logically find my way around it in order to prove I don't have to suffer persecution under Antichrist.

The wrath poured out in that time period is not poured out on me, regardless, just because I happen to suffer the side effects. Consider us unfortunate casualties of a war between God and Antichrist.

Some might call our suffering during the Battle of Armageddon "collateral damage." God pours out His wrath upon the Antichrist, and good people will die in what may be a nuclear holocaust.

But believers are not suffering God's Wrath. On the contrary, they are unfortunate casualties of war--innocent victims of sin in the world. The righteous will be raised from the dead, vindicating their testimony of Salvation through Christ.

We have eternal life now. The Rapture is when our bodies are raised also and we get an eternal body like Jesus has. In no way would the words eternal life be limited to the return to earth on day of Christ!

Again, I'm showing a collective body of information that biblically surrounds the 2nd Coming. And this includes the inception of the glorious Kingdom of God with power. That is when the Son of Man comes from heaven, according to Dan 7. And that forms the basis of NT theology concerning the Antichrist and the Coming of the Son of Man.

The Son of Man comes and establishes a glorious Kingdom with power over the Antichrist. That is why Jesus, in his Olivet Discourse, depicts this time of Christ's Coming as being with "power and glory." That is the time of the resurrection, and of our transformation. And it is the time when Paul declares we shall "ever be with the Lord." That is Eternal Life! That is the beginning of our *immortal* Eternal Life and fellowship with Christ.

The return to earth is after those days. You are a confused hyper conflater of passages and prophesies.

Yes, the Return to Earth is the same as the descent from Heaven by the Son of Man, which is a Postribulational event depicted in Dan 7. It is *at that time* that the Antichrist is destroyed and an everlasting Kingdom is set up with power.

When Jesus is seen by all the world (as He won't be in the Rapture) it will be in power and glory. If you could pause your obsessed conflating for a moment it should be easy to see.

I have no problem seeing this. There is no conflating involved. Passages that fit together belong together. Dan 7 forms the backbone of NT prophecy of the Return of the Son of Man in glory. That begins our eternal immortal fellowship with the Lord. You are improperly dividing a single Postribulational context to insert your own wish for a Pretribulational *escape!*

You're welcome to do that. But I don't find any explicit biblical teaching supporting that. An escape from tribulation and wrath in the time of 70 AD does not translate into an escape from a supposed "Tribulation Period" under Antichrist. And it doesn't take God *7 years* to pour out His wrath on and destroy the Antichrist!

That depends on who 'we' are! The believers in Christ dead and alive are promised an escape from earth up into the air. We have an escape plan in place and ready to go! That is our hope. The devil can rage and huff and puff all he likes, he can't have us! We're special. Elect. Undet the protection of one greater than the one in the world.

I agree. We are protected by the blood of Christ and by the deposit on our eternal insurance. But we are not guaranteed to be out of the period of Antichrist's reign. Clearly, the Antichrist beheads the saints! That will likely take place primarily in Europe.

Not for those it is directed against! For us, there is a way of escape. God has the last laugh. The people left behind will have no excuse. Yet His mercy endures forever and He still sends salvation in that time to vast multitudes of new believers! Amazing. Seeing prophesy in it's proper light shows the heart of God!

You interpret "Left Behind" wrong, as do all the Left Behind people. Respectfully, Jesus spoke in his Olivet Discourse about the 70 AD experience of the Jews, which has led to an age-long wandering by the Jewish People.

This punishment began with the Roman invasion in 70 AD. At that time, some Jews were taken away as prisoners, while others were left behind to man the fields for the Romans. Those "taken away" have no relation to the Rapture of the Church. Those "left behind" have no relation to people left behind after a Pretrib Rapture.

Way, way out of context! ....respectfully. ;) Go ask Corrie ten Boom.

 

[David in NJ]

Confused accuser of the saints. Run along if you can't make a cohesive case for your confused prophesy conflation attempts.

Those who parade the idol of pre-trib have accused the Brethren, as they have done many times on here.

No one is accusing you here, but we are demonstrating from the Holy Scriptures that pre-trib never came out of the Mouth of God.

The LORD Jesus Christ is for us who believe on Him = you are welcome to believe on the LORD Jesus Christ IF you have not already.

Everyone is given the SAME Truth = His words.
Not everyone believes "every word that proceeds from the Mouth of God."

When we add to or take away from God's words we commit error which leads to confusion, division and sin.

We invite you to fear God and not alter His words for that sake of religious doctrines that speak against the LORD's words.

Have you searched the scriptures for many years, kneeling before them and praying, that JESUS would open His words to you?

Do you depend on what you have been taught in your religious circle?

i was saved in 'pre-trib' rapture believing churches and only after studying God's words did i come to know the Truth on the subject.

 

[dad]

It really depends on which "Big Mouth" you refer to? There have been lots of "Big Mouths" in history. The Boastful Little Horn in Dan 7 is the future Antichrist, in my view. Antiochus 4, in Dan 8 and 11-12 is also a boastful creature. see Dan 11.36

There was a shadow of the final leader given in the bible. Of course he woulld to some degree have traits. Otherwise why would God use him as a small example of things to come?

The verse you cite, Dan 11:36 is smack dab in the middle of a prophesy about the final world leader. Sorry you were not able to perceive the jump into the future in the chapter from one time to the very end time.



Daniel 11:36
"Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.
Daniel 11:37
He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other god; for he will magnify himself above them all.

The Scriptures indicate Christ is coming again in a split second. Call it "yo yo," it is what it is.

It iis not the speed He comes that makes your yo yo theory what it is. Rather than the marriage in heaven followed by a return to earth with all of us and Jesus in the lead, you have Him coming FOR His Bride when He returns to the earth. Then He apparently grabs all believers up into the air, marries them and returns before one can say 'the great tribulation is over). Utterly ridiculous.

1 Cor 15.51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The Rapture happens in a flash. You are doing what you do best, conflating events. That grows old fast. Maybe find a new act.

You don't get any extra points for insulting another interpretation, particularly when it is based on Scriptures.

I get an extra 12 points :).

Elijah asked the prophets on the mountain if their God was taking a dump or busy when he failed to send the fire. Did he lose points in your book also? Jesus pointed out that the Pharisees strained at nats and swallowed camels...etc etc.

You, on the other hand, have to answer to God for denying what is in the Scriptures.

Your conflated nonsense is not in scriptures. You spam scriptures that have zero application or fit in a pretense that your weak and unsupportable opinion is some elevated gift from an oracle of God. The reality is that is is confusion and ignorance and darkness couched in religious jargon and disguise.

1) 2 Thes 2 pointedly declares that the 2nd Coming *for the Church* takes place *after* the revelation and judgment of Antichrist.

That tells us that the man of sin is revealed after the Rapture. Jesus will not return till after that.

2) The 2nd Coming for the Church is depicted as taking place "in a flash."

As it will. Just as it is depicted as us rising up into the air while the day of the Lor's return to earth is depicted as Jesus landing on the mount of Olives.

But I can more graciously acknowledge that many good Christians have a different opinion than my own.

And well you should.

 

[Truth7t7]

If we keep agreeing on scripture, ALL of it, then we walk in harmony with the Spirit of Truth.

For it is written: "no lie is of the truth"

We don't agree on everything Dave, especially your belief in Angels having sex with human women and making babies

 

[Truth7t7]

i was saved in 'pre-trib' rapture believing churches and only after studying God's words did i come to know the Truth on the subject.

Me tooo 20 years I believed the pre-trib rapture lie, that's found no place in scripture

 

[David in NJ]

We don't agree on everything Dave, especially your belief in Angels having sex with human women and making babies

Well, you need to take that up with the Holy Spirit who wrote: Genesis, 2 Peter ch2, Luke 20:34-36 and Jude 1:5-9

For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;
if He did not spare the ancient world when He brought the flood on its ungodly people, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, among the eight;


How good are your eyes?

How prepared is your heart before the Word?

How discerning is your spirit?

 

[David in NJ]

Me tooo 20 years I believed the pre-trib rapture lie, that's found no place in scripture

You do know that the LORD is with us both.

He is not butting our heads against each other.

But He does watch to see how we respond towards each other and i am not saying that i am flawless either.

 

[Randy Kluth]

There was a shadow of the final leader given in the bible. Of course he woulld to some degree have traits. Otherwise why would God use him as a small example of things to come?

The verse you cite, Dan 11:36 is smack dab in the middle of a prophesy about the final world leader. Sorry you were not able to perceive the jump into the future in the chapter from one time to the very end time.

Your rudeness does not enable friendly conversation.

But I have obviously "perceived" the interpretation that sees the last part of Dan 11 as a "jump into the future." The whole reason I reject that interpretation is because it is an inordinate "jump into the future," which is not warranted by the context. It would be an unnecessary and unjustified jump into an entirely different time frame, which I don't think the author would engage in.

It is argued that the "contemptible person" is Antiochus 4, whereas the last few paragraphs of Dan 11 belong to prophecy of the Antichrist. But I find the last paragraphs of Dan 11 to be perfectly in accord with the description of Antiochus 4. And this fits directly into what follows, which is the Roman period and the Great Tribulation of the Jewish People, beginning in 70 AD.

To suddenly insert Antichrist, therefore, into the last paragraphs of Dan 11, between Antiochus 4 and the beginning of Jewish Tribulation, does not make sense at all, from my perspective. I perceive, but do not believe.

It iis not the speed He comes that makes your yo yo theory what it is. Rather than the marriage in heaven followed by a return to earth with all of us and Jesus in the lead, you have Him coming FOR His Bride when He returns to the earth. Then He apparently grabs all believers up into the air, marries them and returns before one can say 'the great tribulation is over). Utterly ridiculous.

It's insulting to call it a "yo yo theory" because the Scriptures describe it just as that. Christ is not coming back from heaven until he first changes us so that we can join him in his Kingdom. It has nothing, as I said, with the mechanics of going and coming, with the details of transport, such as working out the details of having a marriage first and an inheritance later. None of that makes sense to me. Sorry!

 

[dad]

In Matt 24, it is depicted as this....
Matt 24.31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call.

As He will. Yoou thought there was only one trumpet in history or the end?? Ha No. Both events have trumpet sounds. There are even seven trumpet judgments!

I'm not arguing that angels only appear once. I'm arguing for a specific historical context, replete with a combination of various indicators. They include a loud sound, a trumpet, an angel, a resurrection, a glorious Kingdom, the Son of Man, etc.

Well there are angels in many places in that period. Saying the word angel does not help your little yo yo theory.

I've been posting Bible, brother! I'm not making anything so. I believe what the Scriptures indicate is a Postrib context. I don't have to logically find my way around it in order to prove I don't have to suffer persecution under Antichrist.

Misposting to be more accurate. Most often you might as well post cereal labels as there is no connection.

The wrath poured out in that time period is not poured out on me, regardless, just because I happen to suffer the side effects. Consider us unfortunate casualties of a war between God and Antichrist.

So the Bride of the Almighty is an unfortunate consequence. Interesting. You do realize God is real?

Some might call our suffering during the Battle of Armageddon "collateral damage." God pours out His wrath upon the Antichrist, and good people will die in what may be a nuclear holocaust.

Others might realize that we were long gone from planet earth by then.

But believers are not suffering God's Wrath. On the contrary, they are unfortunate casualties of war--innocent victims of sin in the world. The righteous will be raised from the dead, vindicating their testimony of Salvation through Christ.

The believers alive in the Great Tribulation, although spared from some things and protected will be living in that world and time of wrath. It is very fortunate for them that God sent witnesses to help them get them saved in that time! Not unfortunate!

Again, I'm showing a collective body of information that biblically surround the 2nd Coming. And this includes the inceptioin of the glorious Kingdom of God with power. That is when the Son of Man comes from heaven, according to Dan 7. And that forms the basis of NT theology concerning the Antichrist and the Coming of the Son of Man.

The kingdom will come and it will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Jesus rules when He returns TO earth with us. There is no real excuse to be confused here.

The Son of Man comes and establishes a glorious Kingdom with power over the Antichrist. That is why Jesus, in his Olivet Discourse, depicts this time of Christ's Coming as being with "power and glory." That is the time of the resurrection, and of our transformation. And it is the time when Paul declares we shall "ever be with the Lord." That is Eternal Life! That is the beginning of our *immortal* Eternal Life and fellowship with Christ.

Lots happens in that discourse. You seem to glob it together in an undiscerning way.

Yes, the Return to Earth is the same as the descent from Heaven by the Son of Man, which is a Postribulational event depicted in Dan 7. It is *at that time* that the Antichrist is destroyed and an everlasting Kingdom is set up with power.

Right, Jesus tosses the guy Personally into the lake of fire when He returns. That does not help your yo yo theory.

I have no problem seeing this. There is no conflating involved. Passages that fit together belong together. Dan 7 forms the backbone of NT prophecy of the Return of the Son of Man in glory. That begins our eternal immortal fellowship with the Lord. You are improperly dividing a single Postribulational context to insert your own wish for a Pretribulational *escape!*

If you are talking about this verse


Daniel 7:13
"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him

--that is not the Rapture. Nor does it mean there is no gathering together in the air also!

You're welcome to do that. But I don't find any explicit biblical teaching supporting that. An escape from tribulation and wrath in the time of 70 AD does not translate into an escape from a supposed "Tribulation Period" under Antichrist. And it doesn't take God *7 years* to pour out His wrath on and destroy the Antichrist!

70 AD is a canard here. Trying to wave away prophesies of the end time in unbelief by trying to stuff it all into history! Ridiculous.

I agree. We are protected by the blood of Christ and by the deposit on our eternal insurance. But we are not guaranteed to be out of the period of Antichrist's reign. Clearly, the Antichrist beheads the saints! That will likely take place primarily in Europe.

He can jump as high as he likes and send up AI powered jets or rockets to try to get us. He would be wasting money! We escape like a bird out of his evil grasp. His mandate does not include the Bride of Christ!

You interpret "Left Behind" wrong, as do all the Left Behind people. Respectfully, Jesus spoke in his Olivet Discourse about the 70 AD experience of the Jews, which has led to an age-long wandering by the Jewish People.

No, Jesus spoke of the time to come that is unmistakably different from ANY other time past or future!



Matthew 24:21
For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will

Period

 

[dad]

It's insulting to call it a "yo yo theory" because the Scriptures describe it just as that. Christ is not coming back from heaven until he first changes us so that we can join him in his Kingdom. It has nothing, as I said, with the mechanics of going and coming, with the details of transport, such as working out the details of having a marriage first and an inheritance later. None of that makes sense to me. Sorry!

I understand. I would be insulted also if I had a theory that had Jesus getting His Bride after the marriage! Then zipping down to raise her up a few feet, then immediatly plop down to earth. Truly ridiculous.

 

[Randy Kluth]

As He will. Yoou thought there was only one trumpet in history or the end?? Ha No. Both events have trumpet sounds. There are even seven trumpet judgments!

You're going down the wrong rabbit trail. Once again, this is a *collection* of signs that together describe a particular event, the 2nd Coming of Christ. They include all of these signs. I'm not arguing that any of these signs cannot be associated with another event. But *together,* they describe the 2nd Coming in more than once place. We see it in the Olivet Discourse and we see it here in 1 Thes 4. If the Olivet Discourse describes this in a postrib context, then 1 Thes 4 is also taking place in a postrib context.

The believers alive in the Great Tribulation, although spared from some things and protected will be living in that world and time of wrath. It is very fortunate for them that God sent witnesses to help them get them saved in that time! Not unfortunate!

There's a problem with this, from my pov. The very same argument used to prove Christians *can't* be here during the "Great Tribulation" explains that Christians "left behind" are here to be beheaded by the Antichrist. If Christians cannot be here to suffer the "time of wrath" then why do you say that Christians "left behind" must suffer the time of wrath? Something doesn't smell right!

And so, Christians who suffer under Antichrist are demeaned as those "left behind," while the Scriptures themselves praise the martyrs under Antichrist as *heroes!* Something's wrong with your theology, in my view!

You deal with these issues in such a cavalier, un-serious way that I don't believe it's worth the time sharing. Maybe next time?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I understand. I would be insulted also if I had a theory that had Jesus getting His Bride after the marriage! Then zipping down to raise her up a few feet, then immediatly plop down to earth. Truly ridiculous.

Of course, that's not how I see it. The marriage happens after our transformation into immortals. And that happens at Christ's 2nd Coming. It is a metaphor for our getting to be "with the Lord forever" at his coming for us on the last day.