OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[GracePeace]

Please read the whole of Matthew 25:14-30 the parable of the talents. It shows how we must fear God and it shows His hatred of those who don't. The last verse speaks of God casting the man who didn't fear God enough, into hell to be tormented forever. Just because He didn't fear God, enough to do what he knew God wanted him to do.

Matt. 25:30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

This parable doesn't help your position : the Lord had lent the servant a talent of his own money, expecting an in-kind harvest, and, because the servant did not act in faith, but was "wicked", what had been deposited to him (a measure of faith) was stripped from him, so that he never had faith (hence, "they went out from us to prove they were never of us" : God can forget righteousness according to Ezekiel 18:24)--just as forgiveness, which is by faith, was rescinded in Matthew 18, because the servant was "wicked" and did not yield an in-kind harvest (ie, forgiveness).

Hebrews 3
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

We have become partakers of Christ only if we hold fast until the end--otherwise, that history of our having partaken of Christ, our "righteousness of faith", is "forgotten" when we are "blotted out" of the Book of Life.

Does your God still blot "whoever has sinned against Me" (Ex 32:33) out of His Book (Revelation 3), or has your version of God changed, not being "the same yesterday today and forever"?

 

[Christian Soldier]

No, if God sets contingencies, "If you do A, I will do B, but if you do C, then I will do D," that isn't Him "changing His mind", that's Him laying out contingencies. If afterward He did not honor His Word (not possible) about those scenarios, then you could complain He was "changing His mind".

We know that God can't add anything or take away anything from who He is, so it's impossible for Him to change anything about Himself.

God doesn't respond to anything, He causes everything to happen. He told Pharoah to let His people go, but He hardened the heart of Pharaoh at the same time so Pharaoh couldn't let the people go.

It may appear that God changes His mind from our perspective, and as you righty pointed out there are instances where He does tell us what He will do in advance.

 

[GracePeace]

We know that God can't add anything or take away anything from who He is, so it's impossible for Him to change anything about Himself.

God doesn't respond to anything, He causes everything to happen. He told Pharoah to let His people go, but He hardened the heart of Pharaoh at the same time so Pharaoh couldn't let the people go.

It may appear that God changes His mind from our perspective, and as you righty pointed out there are instances where He does tell us what He will do in advance.

So, in your view, God forgave the servant, and then rescinded the forgiveness, because God made the servant not forgive, and then Jesus instructs behavior (ie, forgive others, or else God will rescind His forgiveness) all while knowing God may go ahead and override anyone trying to follow His instruction? Why give instruction?

Sounds bonkers.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Jeremiah 18
5Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6“Am I not able, house of Israel, to deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, house of Israel. 7At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot it, to tear it down, or to destroy it; 8if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it. 9Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will relent of the good with which I said [a]that I would bless it.

God "relenting" (of either bringing disaster He planned on, or of bringing good He planned) is not God "changing His mind"; that's just God being faithful to do what He said He would do DEPENDING ON HOW SOMEONE BEHAVES, which conditions He had already set out beforehand. Obviously.
If, on the other hand, God scrapped those terms and conditions. and brought disaster or blessing randomly--which cannot happen, because God never set that as the terms and conditions, because He is just--then that would be God "changing His mind" from the terms and conditions.

In this case, the terms and conditions would be that if you forgive, just as He forgave you, which is a reasonable response to His goodness, then you, too, will remain forgiven, but if you do not forgive, which is an unreasonable response to His goodness, then He will rescind His forgiveness to you.

That is not God changing His mind, that is God setting out His terms and conditions : be reasonable, glorify the Lord by showing others how He treated you--"as I have loved you, so love one another".

I can't argue with that, even though I personally would go that far, because I believe God is a mystery and we can't wrap our minds around His ways and put them in an order with make sense to us. But you have given it a good go, so I give you credit for that, even if I wouldn't venture that deep into it myself.

 

[GracePeace]

God doesn't respond to anything, He causes everything to happen.

I can't argue with that, even though I personally would go that far, because I believe God is a mystery and we can't wrap our minds around His ways and put them in an order with make sense to us. But you have given it a good go, so I give you credit for that, even if I wouldn't venture that deep into it myself.

1. I have proven my point, not merely "given it a good go".
What I have said is plainly the case.
2. You said you do not dare to speculate about "the secret things [which] belong to the LORD", but you're speculating that "God doesn't respond to anything". Where does Scripture say that? God sent angels to check and see if what had been purported about Sodom, in the outcry from the earth, was true. You may argue He had foreseen and performed that searching for knowledge from eternity past, which is a mystery, but He still searched to find knowledge.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Nah. Again, as if you need to be told, parables teach spiritual truths using earthly imagery : the "debt" refers to what we owe God on account of our sins, and Jesus says "so will My Father do to you if you do not forgive your brother from the heart", so it has practical application to our spiritual lives.

I think you mean that this parable does not accord with your "system", or "tradition", so you'd rather not think about it too much. I don't blame you. It certainly does not help you.

I can't agree with your summary of what that arable is teaching. We don't know know who Jesus is referring to when He says, "so will My Father do to you". I don't know if He's giving this as a general warning to everyone or to believers exclusively.

If the parable was given to believers only, then the tormentors are only spiritual ie. guilty conscience and feeling bad. But it can't be referring to a believer being cast into hell, because that would be contrary to everything God said about salvation. God simply does not cast those He saved into hell, it would make God an evil monster if He did.

 

[GracePeace]

I can't agree with your summary of what that arable is teaching. We don't know know who Jesus is referring to when He says, "so will My Father do to you". I don't know if He's giving this as a general warning to everyone or to believers exclusively.

Let me help you : only believers are forgiven all their debt, thus in a position to have forgiveness rescinded.

If the parable was given to believers only, then the tormentors are only spiritual ie. guilty conscience and feeling bad. But it can't be referring to a believer being cast into hell, because that would be contrary to everything God said about salvation. God simply does not cast those He saved into hell, it would make God an evil monster if He did.

No, believers aren't cast into hell, because their talent, on loan from the Lord, is stripped away--their righteousness of faith is forgotten, as God warns (Ez 18:24), so that they never believed in the first place.

Your conception of God is already an evil monster, because he causes all things (even satan), so you have no place to object to anyone presenting God as an "evil monster".

 

[Christian Soldier]

You, to preserve your view (instead of rethinking your view around the parable), tried denying forgiveness had taken place before being rescinded, in the parable we've been discussing.

Is that what we should learn is how you show respect for God's Word?

No, what we should learn is that God does not have a personality disorder. He has always been the same, He never changes but you keep insisting that he has this personality disorder.

You can't have it both ways, either God cast His children into hell or He doesn't. You can't dance around the issue, just answer yes or no.

 

[GracePeace]

No, what we should learn is that God does not have a personality disorder. He has always been the same, He never changes but you keep insisting that he has this personality disorder.

You can't have it both ways, either God cast His children into hell or He doesn't. You can't dance around the issue, just answer yes or no.

As everyone can read, this has already, more than once, been explained : "they are no longer His children because of their defect" (Dt 32:5), and Hos 1, prove that being a child of God is not a static irreversible reality. Romans 11 says the same.

God doesn't cast His children into hell, they are disinherited, rejected, and, as unbelievers, go into hell.

 

[Christian Soldier]

This parable doesn't help your position : the Lord had lent the servant a talent of his own money, expecting an in-kind harvest, and, because the servant did not act in faith, but was "wicked", what had been deposited to him (a measure of faith) was stripped from him, so that he never had faith (hence, "they went out from us to prove they were never of us" : God can forget righteousness according to Ezekiel 18:24)--just as forgiveness, which is by faith, was rescinded in Matthew 18, because the servant was "wicked" and did not yield an in-kind harvest (ie, forgiveness).

You use too much sticky tape, in an effort to create an unbiblical doctrine. By sticky tape, I mean you impose your word to the parables to make them say what you think they should be saying rather than just accept them as they are.

Now your saying the talent that was given really means "a measure of faith" and that changes everything.

 

[GracePeace]

You use too much sticky tape, in an effort to create an unbiblical doctrine. By sticky tape, I mean you impose your word to the parables to make them say what you think they should be saying rather than just accept them as they are.

"Sticky Tape" : It's just called believing EVERYTHING written, not just strips of it here and there.

Now your saying the talent that was given really means "a measure of faith" and that changes everything.

I'm not saying it "now", as if I'm being caused to backpedal, I merely commented on it, and how it coalesces with Mt 18, because you raised the issue.

The Lord gave the servant a measure of faith, and, since he did not walk in faith, it was stripped from him, so he lost his faith, his salvation, and went into hell as an unbeliever, no longer a child of God, his righteousness of faith having been forgotten.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Hebrews 3
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

We have become partakers of Christ only if we hold fast until the end--otherwise, that history of our having partaken of Christ, our "righteousness of faith", is "forgotten" when we are "blotted out" of the Book of Life.

Does your God still blot "whoever has sinned against Me" (Ex 32:33) out of His Book (Revelation 3), or has your version of God changed, not being "the same yesterday today and forever"?

The bible never made any claim that we become partakers, "only if we hold fast until the end" you made that up. I know you did because God would never make such ridiculous demands of His Children.

The book of revelation doesn't only speak about future things, the book of revelation jumps all over the place from Genesis to the end of time. So it's ridiculous to suggest that, the book of revelation is only dealing with NT things.

God has never changed a single thing about Himself, to suggest that He would change anything is blasphemous as it would mean that God is not perfect. You only fix something if it's broke, but you don't fix perfection. That's what you fail to understand. You think God is on some journey of discovery, where He sees Johnny holding a grudge against his brother and then God is forced to rescind His forgiveness of Johnny's sin.

That describes a weak, insecure and mentally unstable god. The God of the Bible changes not. When He saves you you are OSAS and there's no getting around that fact no matter how much you twist the scriptures.

 

[Christian Soldier]

So, in your view, God forgave the servant, and then rescinded the forgiveness, because God made the servant not forgive, and then Jesus instructs behavior (ie, forgive others, or else God will rescind His forgiveness) all while knowing God may go ahead and override anyone trying to follow His instruction? Why give instruction?

Sounds bonkers.

God didn't make anyone do anything, they do everything according to their nature. The servant in question here was born with a sin nature, so he will live according to his nature.

The parable doesn't deal with real people, the parable was given to unbelievers, because Jesus never spoke to born again believers in parables. The parables are meant to condemn unbelievers, and cause believers to be thankful to God and to fear Him.

I don't know why God doesn't save everyone and give them understanding and I would never dare ask God anything, let alone question His sovereignty in choosing His Elect. I wouldn't dare question anything He does, I know that He wants to remain mysterious so I keep my nose out of His business.

 

[Christian Soldier]

1. I have proven my point, not merely "given it a good go".
What I have said is plainly the case.
2. You said you do not dare to speculate about "the secret things [which] belong to the LORD", but you're speculating that "God doesn't respond to anything". Where does Scripture say that? God sent angels to check and see if what had been purported about Sodom, in the outcry from the earth, was true. You may argue He had foreseen and performed that searching for knowledge from eternity past, which is a mystery, but He still searched to find knowledge.

If God reacted to something then it means that He didn't know about it or He didn't see it coming. That's not the God of the Bible, He knows everything, He sees everything at the same time, He see everything from the beginning of time to the end of time at this very moment, He is outside of time, He is outside of His creation, He is invisible, He doesn't speak with His creation, he predetermined everything from the beginning to the end of time.

You have a very low view of God, our god fits in you mind. The God of the bible is a mystery, we know next to nothing about Him, let alone fit Him in to our minds.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Let me help you : only believers are forgiven all their debt, thus in a position to have forgiveness rescinded.

No, believers aren't cast into hell, because their talent, on loan from the Lord, is stripped away--their righteousness of faith is forgotten, as God warns (Ez 18:24), so that they never believed in the first place.

Your conception of God is already an evil monster, because he causes all things (even satan), so you have no place to object to anyone presenting God as an "evil monster".

You could help me i9f you didn't insist on superimposing your doctrine over orthodox bible doctrine. God is not an Indian giver, He doesn't give you a gift one day and then rip it from your hand the next day, that's not the God of the bible. you made that one up in your own mind.

I have no idea what you mean by "their righteousness of faith". I can tell you that I never had any righteousness of faith and I still don't have any today. I've never actually hear of such a thing before, so it's completely new to me. My Pastor advised me to trash anything new, he said if you ever hear anything new, know that it is of the Devil.

You can call the God of the bible and evil monster at your own peril, but He did say that nothing happens outside of His will. I'm not going to get into a deep theological discussion, until you learn the basics, because you evidently don't know them yet.

 

[Christian Soldier]

As everyone can read, this has already, more than once, been explained : "they are no longer His children because of their defect" (Dt 32:5), and Hos 1, prove that being a child of God is not a static irreversible reality. Romans 11 says the same.

God doesn't cast His children into hell, they are disinherited, rejected, and, as unbelievers, go into hell.

They never were His children, Romans 11 and the rest confirm they those who are lost were never His elect. Roman 11 confirms that God reserved 7,000 Israelites for Himself, they are (His elect). They were saved before the foundation of the world. They were saved by grace and not by race as you wrongly believe.

God chose to save a remnant from every tribe and tongue, before He made the world. This is what you either refuse to acknowledge, or you can't because God hasn't opened your eyes to see it yet.

 

[Christian Soldier]

"Sticky Tape" : It's just called believing EVERYTHING written, not just strips of it here and there.

I'm not saying it "now", as if I'm being caused to backpedal, I merely commented on it, and how it coalesces with Mt 18, because you raised the issue.

The Lord gave the servant a measure of faith, and, since he did not walk in faith, it was stripped from him, so he lost his faith, his salvation, and went into hell as an unbeliever, no longer a child of God, his righteousness of faith having been forgotten.

If the Lord gave the servant an insufficient measure of faith and the poor servant wasn't able to fulfill his obligation because the measure of faith he received was not sufficient to enable him to achieve the goal.

So according to your reckoning, the fault lies with god, because he didn't give the servant enough faith to do what was required of Him. You sound like a hyper Calvinist, with that doctrine. A proper Calvinist would say God didn't give him any measure of faith, because God doesn't play childish games.

If God purposed to save you before the foundation of he world, then He will give you more than enough faith to abide in Christ till the end.

 

[RedFan]

We can say God is just because He has revealed that fact to us, but we don't know the extent of justice. We fall way short of understanding how just He actually is.

The problem is not our inability to quantify the "extent" of God's justice, but the use of the term "justice" itself to describe God's doings. The word just doesn't fit at all. Why use it then?

 

[GodsGrace]

The problem is not our inability to quantify the "extent" of God's justice, but the use of the term "justice" itself to describe God's doings. The word just doesn't fit at all. Why use it then?

Because of brainwashing.
Parroting.
I doubt the other member

1. Doesn't know what justice means.
2. Knows but cannot admit it because they'd have to admit that their belief system causes God to be an unjust God.

 

[GracePeace]

The bible never made any claim that we become partakers, "only if we hold fast until the end" you made that up.

No, actually, as I have observed is your wont, you're reshaping what others say to preserve your view.

You can reread and try again.