OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

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Eternally Grateful

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Here is what I read in John 15 -


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how The Apostle John instructs us to remain in Christ -


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Here are other scriptures about His Commandments -


Now by this we know that we know (have eternal life) Him, if we keep His commandments. 1 John 2:3

He who says, “I know Him,” (I have eternal life) and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

Notice that this is the biblical way, The Spirit of God is instructing us to love; Love God and love our brother.

Violating His commandments is expressing hate against God and our brother.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15







JLB
You take 1 verse out of context. and make a whole doctrine out of it

Good luck man, I leave you to your self righteousness.

When you go in front of God. brag about all your good deeds. Boast of all those times you obeyed his commands, Stand up to his face and tell him he needs to save you because you were immersed in water

I seriously do not think if you go to him with all that, you will like his response.

But if thats what you want to do. do not let me stop you
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Your eisegesis culminates in "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door. Believers "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments BECAUSE we abide in Him and not in order to abide in Him. John draws a contrast between believers who know that they have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments (1 John 2:3) with make believers who merely say they have come to know Him,” yet do not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. Such people are liars, and the truth is not in them according to John. You confuse cause and effect.

Elsewhere in scripture, John draws a contrast between children of God and children of the devil in 1 John 3:9-10. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Also, in 1 John 4:7-8, we see another contrast - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) The love of God has been poured out in our (believers) hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5)

Hates his brother in 1 John 3:15 is 'descriptive' of children of the devil. 1 John 2:9 Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

You must not confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture or children of God with children of the devil.
He can't get out of his own way

He ignores John 6

He take 1 verse in John, which speaks about a child of God producing fruit only if they abide in Christ, and turns it into a self righteous, I must earn salvation by my works. hence rejecting grace all together.
 

face2face

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No.

If they repent and believe the gospel.
So conditional then - not one time repentance and one time belief.
How many works?
Depends on what the Word God does in you - if you believe works are of man, and not God, then your starting position is wrong.

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6

So we have a start and a finish / completion, a process which leads to salvation.

Later you will speak to the good soil - how many fruits?

Do you teach sinless perfection? Seeking honor, glory and immortality is 'descriptive' of believers/Christians.
No, not in this life...as you have seen above, its a progressive work.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, Phil 2:12

What does work out mean to you?

So, we can never assume we are saved/have eternal life? Believers have absolutely no assurance of salvation?
Peter can answer that:

For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1

Has God finished this work in you mailman? What does make every effort mean to you? What does "For If" mean to you?

Have you mastered self control? Note the order is it important? And confirm you have applied your faith and life to add these virtues?...Through prayer, meditation, study and practicing righteousness?

For you is it instantaneous?

I never had assurance prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church.
Catholicism is false to its core - there is not one teaching it holds which is truth. She is the mother of harlots.
Should I scratch 1 John 5:11-13 out of my Bible? In regard to the parable of the 4 soils, only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced crops of any size and there is no mention of choking or withering away afterwards.

In the case of the thorny ground hearer, the plant was never firmly rooted and established in which it could produce fruit (even though there was motion and movement toward becoming an established plant) but it was choked out before reaching its desired goal because the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful/bears no fruit, produces nothing. (Mark 4:19). Faith without works is dead. The word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who produce no good fruit at all are not truly converted.

Are you the forth ground?
How do you know?
Are fruits important to God from the understanding of this parable?

Allow me to show the conditions of this persons life and you tell me if "everyone" should believe OSAS?

The forth soil “Brought forth” N.B. How fruit is the end of a process.

• “Hears” Matthew 13:23
• “Receive it” Mark 4:20
• “Understand it” Matthew 13:23
• “Keep it” Luke 8:15
• “Fruit with Patience” Luke 8:15.

In Luke 8:15 we are told they are “honest and of a good heart”

Who looks upon the heart? can you see in me 30 fold, 60, fold, 100 fold of fruitfulness to God?

Only the entire life lived in faith can reveal these works of God - consider Isaac, the true seed, he reaped a hundred fold
Genesis 26:12. He lived by faith in faith that God would fulfill His Promise but was he to know he would produce such fruit to the Glory and Honour of God? Whose work was it?

You said - "We can trust, take confidence and live in the shadow of His Grace; but we can never assume we are saved!" :oops:That is disturbing and is exactly what I was taught in the Roman Catholic church. NOSAS leads to performance-based works salvation (typically salvation by works at the back door) and no assurance of salvation.
How do you understand these words:

Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

2 Pe 1:10.

He goes onto say:

11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Pe 1:11.

Have you arrived at the blue text, or still working on the red text?

Now, while I seek for the blue text in hope and faith, I am working diligently on the red text understanding God will lead me to salvation.

My confidence in the blue text is no different to yours, however I am mindful "humility" is required to allow God to work in me. We are not saved - we are day by day "being" saved - that is the Biblical truth.

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Co 15:1–2.

Christ taught this didn't he in Matthew 13 (the soils)?

Now, along the way can one who is being saved can take confidence in this process? Absolutely, would they say they are saved? And if they did, what would the Apostles say to that person?

The Bible mentions five different crowns.

The imperishable crown - (1 Corinthians 9:25)
27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. 1 Co 9:27.

The crown of righteousness - (2 Timothy 4:8)
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing. 2 Ti 4:8.

The crown of rejoicing - (1 Thessalonians 2:19)
For what is our hope or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you? 20 For you are our glory and joy.
1 Th 2:19–20.
The crown of life - (James 1:12; Revelation 2:10)
Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. Re 2:10.
The crown of glory - (1 Peter 5:4)
4 And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory 1 Pe 5:3–4.
Will every believer receive all five crowns?
Thanks for the references and what is note worthy concerning them!!

Unavoidable really.

F2F
 
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JLB

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Your eisegesis culminates in "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door.


No eisegesis just scripture.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Jesus warns His disciples to remain In Him.


Here is how this same John instructs us to remain in Him.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



JLB
 

JLB

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You take 1 verse out of context. and make a whole doctrine out of it

Good luck man, I leave you to your self righteousness.

When you go in front of God. brag about all your good deeds. Boast of all those times you obeyed his commands, Stand up to his face and tell him he needs to save you because you were immersed in water

I seriously do not think if you go to him with all that, you will like his response.

But if thats what you want to do. do not let me stop you


Actually I just quoted what Jesus plainly taught us through His Apostle John.


I never once mentioned "good deeds". I never mentioned "boasting about obeying His commands".


If the words of scripture doesn't fit in with your "theology" then so be it.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9
 

face2face

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No eisegesis just scripture.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Jesus warns His disciples to remain In Him.


Here is how this same John instructs us to remain in Him.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



JLB
Greetings JLB

I think what we are finding is to prove OSAS, a believer needs to pluck individual verses, interestingly most of which come from John's Gospel, which is rather insightful as he is the Eagle who sores high. However, even those text which are used contain "conditions". Now the reason they don't want the conditions is firstly, it destroys the basis of their belief (once saved always saved). Secondly, they do not understand God's requirements "Bear fruit in keeping with repentance".

Once OSAS is adopted, neither the fruit, or the repentance is a requirement, as they have locked in so to speak their own salvation regardless of God's discerning judgements.

John 8 is an interesting account as we have Jews who at first believed and Jesus (The Word) providing those discerning judgements!

Then Jesus said to those Judeans who had believed him, “If you continue to follow my teaching, you are really my disciples 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” Jn 8:31–32.

The RSV has the word “abide”. The same word is used in verse 35. The acid test is that they failed though having first believed!

@mailmandan from here the OSAS is left behind, as Jesus leads these "change of heart" listeners to a fundamental truth.

I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. But you want to kill me, because my teaching makes no progress among you Jn 8:37.

Or better rendered in the Grk: “my word makes no progress IN you”

If you obey
my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.

Note, it's not just about obeying, its not just about his Words abiding in them, its all about what those Words achieve IN them.

Salvation is based not in a single moment of time, but in it's "progress" and "fruitfulness" of that Word in the believer.

If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you want, and it will be done for you. Jn 15:7.

See the relationship "in me" / "in you"

So what is Salvation based on?

Well its understanding that Jesus is the embodiment, he is “the Truth” John 14:6 the Way of Life in 2 John 1-4 and if his Word is progressing in us Christ is just to say “Of a truth you are my disciples” and with confidence we can be assured of our salvation though still understanding the progress that Word is having in us is not finished or complete until we die, or the Lord returns.

The term "free" in John 8 is to mean salvation!

The freedom is in Christ and it frees you from the Law Gal 5:1, from sin and death Rom 8:1-2 and bondage to self Rom 8:12-15...providing you remain in me and my words remain in you.

No matter what a OSAS believer believes they can never deny the Scripture consistently and constantly reinforces the diligence and discipline (daily activities) to remain in him as a prerequisite both of discipleship and salvation. For to be found apart from him is death and not life.

F2F
 

face2face

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@JLB @mailmandan @Eternally Grateful

Cont...of John 8 is the nature of the response of those receiving the Masters Instruction.

“We Be Abraham’s Seed”...“All Israel are the children of kings!!!”

It was national pride!

And here is the warning for us, we can have uninformed Spiritual Pride, if we fail to understand the full weight of the Lords teaching.

"We are already saved!"..."We have Christ and he us"

On that day (Judgement) many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

F2F
 

Phoneman777

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The problem with your interpretation of Luke 13:5, is you didn't take into consideration the fact that nobody can ever repent because we all love sin too much to repent of it
Got news for you: Paul says in Hebrews 12:1-4 KJV unless you've sweat as it were great drops of blood fighting against sin, don't bother him with your "we can't stop sinning" nonsense - understand?

When's the last time you did that, huh?
When's the last time you went to such lengths to remain faithful to God amid sore temptation?
When's the last time you painted the ground red in agony, pleading with God for overcoming power?


The truth is you give into sin long before you even break a sweat, let alone sweat mingled with blood, right?
As a military veteran of a foreign war, the sniveling, cowardly, pathetic whining from the OSAS crowd about how "we can't stop sinning" offends my masculine sensibilities as much as the rainbow reprobate crowd.
How can any sinner who hates God and is enslaved to sin and Satan, change their nature and love what they hate and hate what they love.
The sinner hates God until He shows why we shouldn't, then He extends the invitation - the choice is ours.
It's ridiculous to suggest that a leopard can change his spots as you suggest.
Get it straight: I never said any such thing. My position is that God knocks on the door of the heart of the sinner and if the sinner allows Him to enter, it is then the transformation begins taking place.

There's a chapter in the book Acts of the Apostles called "Transformed by Grace" that you ought to read which accurately describes the nature of salvation and the utter uselessness of the OSAS License to Sin.
Jesus was merely making an observation, saying that those who don't repent perish. There's no invitation in that, it's a condemnation and not an invitation or command as you falsely claim it to be.
"Unless you put on a parachute, this will be your last jump" is also an observation, but if you don't put one it'll also be truth confirmed...as true as failing to repent results in going to hell.
So, you believe that everyone is given the choice of eternal paradise and eternal torment in hell
No such thing as "eternal torment". If "...no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him" how the flip can he have eternal suffering?
but the vast majority choose to spend eternity in hellfire. This is highly offensive to any intelligent person, why in the world would the greatest minds in human history fail to understand that paradise is better than the lake of fire. It's just ridiculous to suggest such nonsense.
Peter says in the last days, atheists will be "willingly ignorant" of the previous watery judgment of God - and the obvious reason is that since they don't want to be subject to the coming fiery judgment of God - so they get rid of God and His judgments altogether via the Theory of Evolution.

The OSAS crowd perfectly demonstrates how theists do the same - in order to escape the fiery judgment of God against them for refusing to repent from sin, they manufactured the OSAS License to Sin which allows them to escape the same penalty for sin - death - which the Unlicensed Sinner will suffer.
Your favorite preacher didn't tell you whom the biddings were directed at, so you don't know how to apply it.
How inconsistent for you to agree that the invitation of Jesus to follow Him is for all, but His warning that those who refuse to repent will perish isn't.
Jesus is not my Gym Buddy, who helps me when I'm in trouble. His Holy Spirit is always watching over me and protecting me.
Everything but providing power to stop sinning, right?
He doesn't only step in when I mess up as you're suggesting.
I didn't suggest that - my analogy shows that "He is a very present help in time of need" but how can the OSAS crowd sense their "need" of overcoming power when their motto is "overcoming - take it or leave it".
I'm bragging about God, He's the One who saved me and keeps me saved for all eternity. I have nothing to brag about, since I only contributed a stinking corpse and filthy rags to the finished work of Christ.
And, for a show of gratitude, you shove a OSAS License to Sin in His face every time the devil comes dangling temptation? How about simply asking God for help in resisting him until he flees from you? Try it!
Your analogy of the backslider doesn't make biblical sense. Nobody falls into sin by accident, we sin hen we are overcome by our lust. A saved person still sins every single day of his life, we don't attain sinless perfection until we receive our glorified sinless body in the life to come. Until then we will sin everyday, but never lose salvation because our past, present and all future sins have been fully paid for by Christ.
Just stop, OK? A toddler learning to walk often falls down and cries - does the father reprimand the child and slap the child...or does he bend low and smile and encourage and take his hand and lift him up over and over until he learns?

The OSAS crowd esteems itself to be adult but are spiritually immature children who refuse to grow up.
I know you Arminians will accuse the elect of claiming to have a license to sin but that's a Satanic lie. We don't claim to have a license to in, but we do admit that we are still in this body of death and the old nature still cries out to have it's lust satisfied.
OSAS has bought into the satanic lie that we may by dead faith obtain that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life.

Seriously, please tell us who's pointing a gun at your head forcing you to sin since you think salvation robs us of free will.
We don't win every wrestling match against temptation, we are regularly overcome by temptation and sin but God is always faithful to grant us repentance and forgive us and fully restore us every single time.
God's grace does not cover impenitent sin! We must "confess and forsake" it - understand? The man who willfully climbs down into the pit of sin, sits down among the filth, swats away the uplifting hand of Jesus, and attempts to "cover his sin" with an unprosperous OSAS License to Sin is going to split hell wide open, no matter how high he raises his praise hand in church.
I pushed Gods hand away more time than I can count, but He has remained faithful and always drew me back to Himself. I hated God and I never would have chosen Him, if He didn't chose me. And it's exactly the same for every other born again believer.
Friend, keep playing with fire and you'll "sear the conscience". Jesus came to call sinners to repentance, not to the DMV (Devil's Misinterpreted Verses) building to obtain a OSAS License to Sin.
 

BlessedPeace

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He can't get out of his own way

He ignores John 6

He take 1 verse in John, which speaks about a child of God producing fruit only if they abide in Christ, and turns it into a self righteous, I must earn salvation by my works. hence rejecting grace all together.
Do you not realize JLB can never realize he is wrong?
 

face2face

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Got news for you: Paul says in Hebrews 12:1-4 KJV unless you've sweat as it were great drops of blood fighting against sin, don't bother him with your "we can't stop sinning" nonsense - understand?

When's the last time you did that, huh?
When's the last time you went to such lengths to remain faithful to God amid sore temptation?
When's the last time you painted the ground red in agony, pleading with God for overcoming power?


The truth is you give into sin long before you even break a sweat, let alone sweat mingled with blood, right?
As a military veteran of a foreign war, the sniveling, cowardly, pathetic whining from the OSAS crowd about how "we can't stop sinning" offends my masculine sensibilities as much as the rainbow reprobate crowd.

The sinner hates God until He shows why we shouldn't, then He extends the invitation - the choice is ours.

Get it straight: I never said any such thing. My position is that God knocks on the door of the heart of the sinner and if the sinner allows Him to enter, it is then the transformation begins taking place.

There's a chapter in the book Acts of the Apostles called "Transformed by Grace" that you ought to read which accurately describes the nature of salvation and the utter uselessness of the OSAS License to Sin.

"Unless you put on a parachute, this will be your last jump" is also an observation, but if you don't put one it'll also be truth confirmed...as true as failing to repent results in going to hell.

No such thing as "eternal torment". If "...no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him" how the flip can he have eternal suffering?

Peter says in the last days, atheists will be "willingly ignorant" of the previous watery judgment of God - and the obvious reason is that since they don't want to be subject to the coming fiery judgment of God - so they get rid of God and His judgments altogether via the Theory of Evolution.

The OSAS crowd perfectly demonstrates how theists do the same - in order to escape the fiery judgment of God against them for refusing to repent from sin, they manufactured the OSAS License to Sin which allows them to escape the same penalty for sin - death - which the Unlicensed Sinner will suffer.

How inconsistent for you to agree that the invitation of Jesus to follow Him is for all, but His warning that those who refuse to repent will perish isn't.

Everything but providing power to stop sinning, right?

I didn't suggest that - my analogy shows that "He is a very present help in time of need" but how can the OSAS crowd sense their "need" of overcoming power when their motto is "overcoming - take it or leave it".

And, for a show of gratitude, you shove a OSAS License to Sin in His face every time the devil comes dangling temptation? How about simply asking God for help in resisting him until he flees from you? Try it!

Just stop, OK? A toddler learning to walk often falls down and cries - does the father reprimand the child and slap the child...or does he bend low and smile and encourage and take his hand and lift him up over and over until he learns?

The OSAS crowd esteems itself to be adult but are spiritually immature children who refuse to grow up.

OSAS has bought into the satanic lie that we may by dead faith obtain that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life.

Seriously, please tell us who's pointing a gun at your head forcing you to sin since you think salvation robs us of free will.

God's grace does not cover impenitent sin! We must "confess and forsake" it - understand? The man who willfully climbs down into the pit of sin, sits down among the filth, swats away the uplifting hand of Jesus, and attempts to "cover his sin" with an unprosperous OSAS License to Sin is going to split hell wide open, no matter how high he raises his praise hand in church.

Friend, keep playing with fire and you'll "sear the conscience". Jesus came to call sinners to repentance, not to the DMV (Devil's Misinterpreted Verses) building to obtain a OSAS License to Sin.
This is worth more than a thumbs up or a heart at the bottom of the post...parts of this really capture the Spirit of Christ in his resistance of sin and the crying in tears to Him who was able to save him from death. They need to come down from the lofty grandeurs and get into the trenches with their Lord!
F2F
 
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BlessedPeace

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Do you not realize JLB can never realize he is wrong?

The problem with your interpretation of Luke 13:5, is you didn't take into consideration the fact that nobody can ever repent because we all love sin too much to repent of it
How can any sinner who hates God and is enslaved to sin and Satan, change their nature and love what they hate and hate what they love. It's ridiculous to suggest that a leopard can change his spots as you suggest.

Jesus was merely making an observation, saying that those who don't repent perish. There's no invitation in that, it's a condemnation and not an invitation or command as you falsely claim it to be.

So, you believe that everyone is given the choice of eternal paradise and eternal torment in hell but the vast majority choose to spend eternity in hellfire. This is highly offensive to any intelligent person, why in the world would the greatest minds in human history fail to understand that paradise is better than the lake of fire. It's just ridiculous to suggest such nonsense.

Your favorite preacher didn't tell you whom the biddings were directed at, so you don't know how to apply it.

Jesus is not my Gym Buddy, who helps me when I'm in trouble. His Holy Spirit is always watching over me and protecting me. He doesn't only step in when I mess up as you're suggesting.

I'm bragging about God, He's the One who saved me and keeps me saved for all eternity. I have nothing to brag about, since I only contributed a stinking corpse and filthy rags to the finished work of Christ.

Your analogy of the backslider doesn't make biblical sense. Nobody falls into sin by accident, we sin hen we are overcome by our lust. A saved person still sins every single day of his life, we don't attain sinless perfection until we receive our glorified sinless body in the life to come. Until then we will sin everyday, but never lose salvation because our past, present and all future sins have been fully paid for by Christ.

I know you Arminians will accuse the elect of claiming to have a license to sin but that's a Satanic lie. We don't claim to have a license to in, but we do admit that we are still in this body of death and the old nature still cries out to have it's lust satisfied. We don't win every wrestling match against temptation, we are regularly overcome by temptation and sin but God is always faithful to grant us repentance and forgive us and fully restore us every single time.

I pushed Gods hand away more time than I can count, but He has remained faithful and always drew me back to Himself. I hated God and I never would have chosen Him, if He didn't chose me. And it's exactly the same for every other born again believer.
May I suggest, when someone insists they are not eternally redeemed from their sins and are not secure in Christ nor have the seal that assures eternal life through irrevocable Salvation, believe them!
 
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Got news for you: Paul says in Hebrews 12:1-4 KJV unless you've sweat as it were great drops of blood fighting against sin, don't bother him with your "we can't stop sinning" nonsense - understand?

When's the last time you did that, huh?
When's the last time you went to such lengths to remain faithful to God amid sore temptation?
When's the last time you painted the ground red in agony, pleading with God for overcoming power?


The truth is you give into sin long before you even break a sweat, let alone sweat mingled with blood, right?
As a military veteran of a foreign war, the sniveling, cowardly, pathetic whining from the OSAS crowd about how "we can't stop sinning" offends my masculine sensibilities as much as the rainbow reprobate crowd.

The sinner hates God until He shows why we shouldn't, then He extends the invitation - the choice is ours.

Get it straight: I never said any such thing. My position is that God knocks on the door of the heart of the sinner and if the sinner allows Him to enter, it is then the transformation begins taking place.

There's a chapter in the book Acts of the Apostles called "Transformed by Grace" that you ought to read which accurately describes the nature of salvation and the utter uselessness of the OSAS License to Sin.

"Unless you put on a parachute, this will be your last jump" is also an observation, but if you don't put one it'll also be truth confirmed...as true as failing to repent results in going to hell.

No such thing as "eternal torment". If "...no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him" how the flip can he have eternal suffering?

Peter says in the last days, atheists will be "willingly ignorant" of the previous watery judgment of God - and the obvious reason is that since they don't want to be subject to the coming fiery judgment of God - so they get rid of God and His judgments altogether via the Theory of Evolution.

The OSAS crowd perfectly demonstrates how theists do the same - in order to escape the fiery judgment of God against them for refusing to repent from sin, they manufactured the OSAS License to Sin which allows them to escape the same penalty for sin - death - which the Unlicensed Sinner will suffer.

How inconsistent for you to agree that the invitation of Jesus to follow Him is for all, but His warning that those who refuse to repent will perish isn't.

Everything but providing power to stop sinning, right?

I didn't suggest that - my analogy shows that "He is a very present help in time of need" but how can the OSAS crowd sense their "need" of overcoming power when their motto is "overcoming - take it or leave it".

And, for a show of gratitude, you shove a OSAS License to Sin in His face every time the devil comes dangling temptation? How about simply asking God for help in resisting him until he flees from you? Try it!

Just stop, OK? A toddler learning to walk often falls down and cries - does the father reprimand the child and slap the child...or does he bend low and smile and encourage and take his hand and lift him up over and over until he learns?

The OSAS crowd esteems itself to be adult but are spiritually immature children who refuse to grow up.

OSAS has bought into the satanic lie that we may by dead faith obtain that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life.

Seriously, please tell us who's pointing a gun at your head forcing you to sin since you think salvation robs us of free will.

God's grace does not cover impenitent sin! We must "confess and forsake" it - understand? The man who willfully climbs down into the pit of sin, sits down among the filth, swats away the uplifting hand of Jesus, and attempts to "cover his sin" with an unprosperous OSAS License to Sin is going to split hell wide open, no matter how high he raises his praise hand in church.

Friend, keep playing with fire and you'll "sear the conscience". Jesus came to call sinners to repentance, not to the DMV (Devil's Misinterpreted Verses) building to obtain a OSAS License to Sin.
Why would I do such a foolish thing as to sweat blood, when Jesus already did that on my behalf. I'm not a sucker for punishment, as you Arminian works based gospel believers are. You think your self mutilation will somehow save you, well God refutes that false doctrine.

The greatest men of God in all of human history were never able to resist the temptation to sin, as you falsely claim to do. David was an adulterer and murderer, but God said he was a man after Gods own heart. So go back to the drawing board and scrap that false Arminian theology and repent of it, and start from scratch. I can give you countless examples to prove my point if you need them.

I know you're offended by those of us who believe in Gods sovereignty, in election and predestination where He chose His elect before He created the world. You reject Gods Word at your own peril and make Him a liar.


You reject Hebrews 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

You reject Jesus and make yourself the author and finisher of your faith, at your own peril. What does author mean to you and what does finisher mean to you????......

1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” Daniel 9:9 “The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him.”

God doesn't knock on the door and leave it up to you to let Him in. He's not like some pitiful door to door salesman knocking on doors and being rejected 99% of the time. I reject that Arminian doctrine in the strongest terms as it brings shame upon the name of God. It makes Him a loser, and I rebuke everyone who accuses the God of the bible as being a loser.

The true God of the Bible saved His elect before He created the world, H won't lose a single one of His children as you falsely claim He will. See God is against everything you believe.

I'm being transformed by Gods grace, as we speak, but thanks for your concern I'm familiar with the book of Acts. The book never claims that anyone attains sinless perfection in this life, so you need to go back to you Shepherd, Teacher, Minister or Pastor and ask them why they taught you a false gospel, which can't save anyone.

You don't even know about the various contexts of the word "death" are in the bible. You falsely apply it to mean "annihilation", but the truth is there's no such thing in the Bible. Death is never ever ever, ceasing to exist in the Bible, I would be very angry with your Shepherd for teaching you lies.

God told Adam that He would die on the day that he ate of the tree, according to you he ceased to exist and didn't go onto live well over 900 years. Mankind died on that day, and those who suffer the second death will never get the chance to repent or be saved. The second death is a permanent state of separation from Gods grace.

Those who are cast into hell are tormented in hell fire for all eternity, there is no annihilation, or ceasing to exist or escape. You need to start believing what God said and maybe find a faithful Shepherd to teach you, to lead you and watch over you.

John 15:16
You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
So much for your free choice heresy.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

I suppose there's no point in citing verses of scripture if you don't believe what they are saying. What I see in your theology reminds me of the bible verse;

Proverbs 14"12
There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.
 
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Christian Soldier

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Correct, it just means the points which have been made (in my mind) speak to the true intent of the authors point and OSAS believers are yet to answer the difficult questions presented.


You should read the exchanges between Mailman and myself, I think we covered a lot of ground in that discussion and while we didnt come to mutual agreement I believe the Scriptures are clear that OSAS is a man-made teaching.

with deceiving spirits and demonic teachings 1 Tim 4:1.

These are things of the flesh, carnal in nature; its nuanced language of the day...Paul defines this more clearly here:

But evil people (flesh) and charlatans will go from bad to worse, deceiving others and being deceived themselves. 2 Tim 3:13.

Due to your incorrect teaching you have been led to believe in notions of ethereal spirits and dark forces of evil but the Word of God is silent on such things. If you want to start a thread, happy to show you a better way.

F2F
I appreciate the fact that you qualified your first paragraph with (in my mind), we all accept or reject Bible interpretations according to what our mindset.
I have already done an exhaustive study and read many commentaries on the subject, and I'm fully satisfied that the Bible doctrine of OSAS is exactly what the Bible teaches. There is no further study required on my part, so with all due respect we must agree to disagree.

I'm currently doing a study on Satan, Demons and Spiritual Warfare. I don't what to start a thread on the topic until I complete the study. I want to make sure it's all biblical and not what men teach about the subject.
 
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face2face

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Why would I do such a foolish thing as to sweat blood, when Jesus already did that on my behalf.
Wow, I knew ignorance was rife in the world, but a disciple who doesn't know the fight? Incredible! Those who are Christs crucify the flesh and its lust, as he has demonstrated in his walk. It simply means you don't "yet" know how to follow him!
He can show you if you allow him.
F2F
 

face2face

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I'm currently doing a study on Satan, Demons and Spiritual Warfare. I don't what to start a thread on the topic until I complete the study. I want to make sure it's all biblical and not what men teach about the subject.
If you want help with working through all the non-Biblical notions let me know! I've been studying that subject for over 25 years and have many resources you will be challenged by.

First question you must ask is why the silence in the Torah? Most commentators agree the OT holds no evidence of an opposing angel to God.

This is your first major hurdle!

After this would will need help with interpreting Isaiah 14 & Ezek 28 - this is easy once you have the keys! Other than the powerless adversary at the first 3 chapters of Job the OT is done - then its about understand how the words are used in the NT. This I also can show you.

F2F
 

Dan Clarkston

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According to this documentary, OSAS originated with the Gnostics

It did, and it was not taught by the early church

Those that believe OSAS are delusional cherry pickers that do not accept the whole counsel of God.


before Augustine's novel teachings in the early 5th century, absolutely no one in the early church believed in once saved always saved

This is true.
 

Christian Soldier

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Wow, I knew ignorance was rife in the world, but a disciple who doesn't know the fight? Incredible! Those who are Christs crucify the flesh and its lust, as he has demonstrated in his walk. It simply means you don't "yet" know how to follow him!
He can show you if you allow him.
F2F
You're right, I don't know how to follow Him and neither does any man.

That's why Jesus sent His Holy Spirit to lead His children to follow Christ. No Christian can go 5 minutes without sinning, even with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Wow man, you really can't get a single verse of scripture right. You always have to twist and butcher every single one of them.
 

Christian Soldier

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If you want help with working through all the non-Biblical notions let me know! I've been studying that subject for over 25 years and have many resources you will be challenged by.

First question you must ask is why the silence in the Torah? Most commentators agree the OT holds no evidence of an opposing angel to God.

This is your first major hurdle!

After this would will need help with interpreting Isaiah 14 & Ezek 28 - this is easy once you have the keys! Other than the powerless adversary at the first 3 chapters of Job the OT is done - then its about understand how the words are used in the NT. This I also can show you.

F2F
I'm working through a lot of material, I really couldn't take on anymore. Apart from that, I only read commentaries from the worlds greatest and most respected Theologians and Bible Scholars. I don't read the commentaries of those who appeal to their denominational views.

I don't believe there's a place for "deliverance ministries" in the Church and I don't believe there's a place for any extra biblical views and opinions. I start that thread prematurely now, and you can hopefully share what you've learned with us.
 

face2face

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You're right, I don't know how to follow Him and neither does any man.

That's why Jesus sent His Holy Spirit to lead His children to follow Christ. No Christian can go 5 minutes without sinning, even with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Wow man, you really can't get a single verse of scripture right. You always have to twist and butcher every single one of them.
No, you again you missed the mark! You failed to return with the humility that you were wrong in your post. Christ is "representative", which means he commands you follow his example in every way possible. Putting the flesh and its lust to death was his focus.
You need to take care in your responses.
F2F