OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

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Christian Soldier

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You seem to have a cog stuck! Why do you persist to connect OSAS with His Promises?

His Promises are to those who have the faith of Abraham! Those who persevere to the end!

Very true - but one must know the true Gospel and live according to this commands!

Soul simply means life. Man does not possess immortality as we have shown many times in this thread

"to those (not all) who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; Romans 2:7

You will start to see how you faith is built on false teachings and this will further undermine your confidence in OSAS.

1. It tells you those save have persevered and suffered for this faith
2. Immortality is not in man its something sought


So you don't believe faith is what saves you?

10:13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Ro 10:12–13.

No calling in faith = no saving!


Your opinions dont interest me to be frank - show me the Scripture


No, as we are finding this is what you are doing. Actually go back and see how Scott and others failed to deal with all the verses presented. Its for lack of knowledge the people perish!


See here's the problem with your statement. You say "confidence", but really you mean "guarantee salvation today" regardless of how you act or behave. This is garbage and you know it, so I'm confused why you are in defense of error? Makes no sense!



You see? You can't speak to the Lord in an intimate way as one who knows him. You don't even know how he suffered! You don't have the ability to even get close to his struggle. How long will you keep up the mascaraed?



Who was the Adversary that would do this? Who could have lured him into being deceived?



So belief and following after his example is not a condition?



Correct, by Grace, a gift for those who with patience live a Godly Life seeking those things above and not below. If your life is not Grace-Filled and producing faithful works you are not His!


Okay, I've got one of those...

Leave you with your crazies Christian - clearly not teachable.

F2F
I already showed you that God promised to keep His people saved to the end, I gave you the scripture where God made this promise, but you obviously don't believe anything God says. You can't accept what God says because your false Arminian gospel has blinded you to the truth.

Are you suggesting that Abraham was born with faith while the vast majority, wasn't born with any faith. What sort of a god do you believe in anyway, it's certainly not the God of the Bible.

You place ridiculous conditions to the finished work of Christ. God promised to cast all those who add or take away from His Word, into the lake of fire. You constantly do this with pride. You say salvation is dependent on, "one must know the true gospel and live according to His commandments. This is a Satanic lie straight from the pits of hell because it denies what God said and it makes Him a liar.

Jesus never added those conditions or any other conditions, so your lies don't fool anyone except for yourself. the thief on the cross didn't know the true gospel, he didn't live according to His commandments, but Jesus saved him without your permission, or your false requirements or your false conditions anyway. Can you see how absurd it is to add silly conditions to the finished work of Christ. It's highly offensive to the Lod, not that you care about that.

God said His elect are saved by grace, but you claim your filthy rag faith is what saved you. Good luck with that.

You don't even know what words like soul, or immortality mean. You understand them in a false carnal way.

You're obviously not interested in the truth, your mission is to push your false Arminian gospel.
 

Christian Soldier

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Not dodging anything here Christian.

Could be you...could be me...could be both of us - we will see if we endure till the end :hmhehm


Not his own that's for certain. Who did he reveal in his life? Don't say himself please!



Judas' intestines burst forth showing you he will need receive the mercies of God.


True, God knows who they are and He will have mercy on those He will have mercy. Don't be downhearted Christian...Hebrews 11 reveals to those faithful who were saved because of their faith - its impossible to please Him without this type of faith.

F2F
There's no need to explain the obvious, Jesus revealed God in His life as a man.

God doesn't show the reprobate any mercy, what makes you think that Judas will be shown mercy. God casts all Devils into the lake of fire, while they beg for mercy, but no mercy is every shown to them.

I can't believe, you're still holding to the unbiblical idea that God knows who they are. But God said He chose them, so He doesn't just know who they are because they help old ladies cross the street as you believe He does.

Can you please explain how I can manufacture this faith you describe in Hebrews 11, how come some fluke the recipe and cook it up, while others spend their whole life trying to crack the code but they never do. That's a very sad gospel, it's quite literally Satanic.
 

face2face

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I already showed you that God promised to keep His people saved to the end, I gave you the scripture where God made this promise, but you obviously don't believe anything God says. You can't accept what God says because your false Arminian gospel has blinded you to the truth

Are you suggesting that Abraham was born with faith while the vast majority, wasn't born with any faith. What sort of a god do you believe in anyway, it's certainly not the God of the Bible.

You place ridiculous conditions to the finished work of Christ. God promised to cast all those who add or take away from His Word, into the lake of fire. You constantly do this with pride. You say salvation is dependent on, "one must know the true gospel and live according to His commandments. This is a Satanic lie straight from the pits of hell because it denies what God said and it makes Him a liar.

Jesus never added those conditions or any other conditions, so your lies don't fool anyone except for yourself. the thief on the cross didn't know the true gospel, he didn't live according to His commandments, but Jesus saved him without your permission, or your false requirements or your false conditions anyway. Can you see how absurd it is to add silly conditions to the finished work of Christ. It's highly offensive to the Lod, not that you care about that.

God said His elect are saved by grace, but you claim your filthy rag faith is what saved you. Good luck with that.

You don't even know what words like soul, or immortality mean. You understand them in a false carnal way.

You're obviously not interested in the truth, your mission is to push your false Arminian gospel.
Christian, have you been reading the thread? We are way past this in the discussion!
Keep up!
F2F
 
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Christian Soldier

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No it cannot - thats the point; you don't understand the meaning of the word or how it is used and its context is never known to you because you believe in lies.


And the Disciples looked around at each other and not for some make believe supernatural being. They knew the meaning of the word is "false accuser" and they knew it relates to people!


Judas had free will like all the other disciples; he could have stayed at the last supper and taken part in the wine of fellowship but instead he went out and it was "dark". He show the flesh and its lusts over the Spirit.

I feel sorry for you Christian that you have all this mythological crap in your head, so much so you can't see the truth.



You are way off target, way off!


I've answered all you nonsense, but soon if you don't cease from speaking what you think you know and start asking intelligent questions of the Word, I'm afraid you will never learn!

F2F
I quote the Word of God to you and you refute it every time by your private opinion. You never explain why you accuse God of being such a big liar. You simply reject His Word, but you never show us any evidence that He is, apart from just saying that He is.

So according to you, Jesus lied about who Judas is. You claim that Judas was a ghost but Gods Word exposes you as a liar. Devil doesn't mean false accuser, you just exposed yourself again as being ignorant of the facts, but at least you're consistent. Everything you have said so far has been a lie. "Satan" translated means "false accuser" not Devil.

You don't even believe that Judas was created to betray Jesus, he was born for that very purpose. But you say God lied, and Judas had a free will and he chose the lake of fire over eternal paradise. Your idea is ridiculous and downright offensive to God people.

You have never defended any of the charges I brought against you, you simply deny all the charges and plead ignorance. The truth obviously means nothing to you, and neither does the honor of God.
 

Phoneman777

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Jesus never set any conditions to be saved, sinful men added them afterwards. Please show me where Jesus commands anyone to repent, in order to be saved.
Don't know what version you read but here's my KJV:

Luke 13:5 KJV: "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."
Jesus knows it's impossible for anyone to repent unless God first grants repentance to the person by His grace.
If Jesus says we'll perish if we don't repent, rest assured that everyone before they die will be given opportunity to repent.

My favorite preacher always says "All His biddings are enablings".
The athlete gets ZERO!!!! credit for anything, all the glory belongs to God. The only thing the athlete deserves is eternal torment in hell, for thinking that he deserves some of Gods glory in salvation. We are always too weak to obey any commandments, we don't need Jesus to help us when we are too weak. We need His Holy Spirit to help us, every second of the day, without His constant help, we would immediately be overtaken and consumed by temptation.
Correct, it's never been a matter of "skill" - but "will".

However, our lack of "skill" in obeying God will not excuse us on Judgment Day because our Heavenly Spotter stands ever ready to give us all the skill we need to resist the devil just as the athlete can always count on his spotter.
I'm in the OSAS crowd,
Are you bragging or complaining?
I couldn't count the number of times I backslid and went back into the world to get my fix of sin. Then after indulging in all kinds of depravity, for various lengths of time from weeks to years, God always drew me back to Himself and gra.nted me repentance.
The Just Man falls seven times into the pit of sin and rises up again...eventually, he learns to keep clear of it.

The Presumptuous Man deliberately climbs down into the pit of sin, sits down comfortably among the filth, swats away the uplifting hand of Jesus, and pushes his OSAS License to Sin in His face.

Which are you?


So it's not by the choice of man that anyone is saved or kept saved. It's all of God, so OSAS is the truth of the gospel. If you don't believe it then you're calling God a liar.
 

face2face

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I quote the Word of God to you and you refute it every time by your private opinion. You never explain why you accuse God of being such a big liar. You simply reject His Word, but you never show us any evidence that He is, apart from just saying that He is.

So according to you, Jesus lied about who Judas is. You claim that Judas was a ghost but Gods Word exposes you as a liar. Devil doesn't mean false accuser, you just exposed yourself again as being ignorant of the facts, but at least you're consistent. Everything you have said so far has been a lie. "Satan" translated means "false accuser" not Devil.

You don't even believe that Judas was created to betray Jesus, he was born for that very purpose. But you say God lied, and Judas had a free will and he chose the lake of fire over eternal paradise. Your idea is ridiculous and downright offensive to God people.

You have never defended any of the charges I brought against you, you simply deny all the charges and plead ignorance. The truth obviously means nothing to you, and neither does the honor of God.
There is a problem with your comprehension as it relates to this subject. As I previously stated the conversation has moved past OSAS and now looking into the severity of God's & Christ's warnings. If you want to start a thread on the false teaching of fallen angels by all means start it, i'll contribute.

F2F
 

face2face

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Hebrews 6:4-6, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

This is a sobering passage that underscores the seriousness of apostasy, particularly among those who have experienced the fullness of God's grace and revelation. The opening verse emphasizes that those who were "once enlightened" have encountered the truth of God's Word and His Spirit. They have not only tasted but have become partakers of the Holy Ghost, experiencing the transformative power of God in their lives. This indicates a profound spiritual encounter where individuals have genuinely received the indwelling presence and guidance of the Holy Spirit, marking a significant step in their journey of faith.

The passage continues by stating that these individuals have "tasted the good word of God," indicating a personal experience of God's truth and promises, and have also tasted "the powers of the world to come," experiencing glimpses of the supernatural kingdom of God and its future blessings. These experiences highlight a deep involvement and intimacy with God's divine purposes and spiritual realities.

However, the warning in verse 6 is stark: if these individuals should "fall away," there is a dire consequence—they cannot be renewed again to repentance. This does not imply that God is unwilling to forgive, but rather, it underscores the severity of turning away from the faith after such profound experiences. The phrase "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" vividly portrays the seriousness of apostasy, likening it to a repeated rejection and dishonor of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. It signifies a deliberate turning away from the truth and grace that they once embraced, thus putting Christ to an open shame by rejecting His redemptive work and its ongoing power in their lives.

Hebrews 10:26-27, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

Is understood as a solemn warning against the dangers of willful sin and apostasy after receiving the knowledge of the truth. This passage emphasizes the seriousness of deliberate disobedience among believers who have experienced the full revelation of God's truth through the gospel. When someone knowingly turns away from God's will and persists in sin despite knowing better, they reject the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that cleanses from all sin. In this state, there is no other sacrifice available to atone for their sins because Christ's sacrifice on the cross was complete and sufficient for all who repent and believe (Hebrews 10:12). Instead of forgiveness and reconciliation, such individuals face a fearful expectation of judgment and wrath from God. This judgment is described as fiery indignation, symbolizing the severe consequences awaiting those who reject God's grace and choose to live in opposition to His revealed truth.

This passage underscores the importance of genuine repentance and obedience among believers. It serves as a sober reminder that salvation is not merely a one-time event but a continual relationship with God marked by faithfulness and obedience. The Bible emphasize the necessity of remaining steadfast in faith and living a holy life empowered by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Through daily reliance on God's grace and the sanctifying work of the Spirit, believers are enabled to resist sin and maintain a close relationship with God, avoiding the perilous path of willful disobedience that leads to spiritual ruin.
Thanks for taking the time to outline the importance of this section of Scripture and how it aligns with the teachings of Christ.

This was a key point:

However, the warning in verse 6 is stark: if these individuals should "fall away," there is a dire consequence—they cannot be renewed again to repentance. This does not imply that God is unwilling to forgive, but rather, it underscores the severity of turning away from the faith after such profound experiences. The phrase "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" vividly portrays the seriousness of apostasy, likening it to a repeated rejection and dishonor of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. It signifies a deliberate turning away from the truth and grace that they once embraced, thus putting Christ to an open shame by rejecting His redemptive work and its ongoing power in their lives.

I'll take that for my notes if you don't mind?

Speaking to those I know who have walked away and I'm certain this applies to all denominations as the principle is clearly outlined. It's extremely rare for a believer who has understand truth to leave and come back again. I know of one case where a man in his 70's realized his foolishness and fell upon the Lords mercy. Of course we know if they stay away there are consequences.

F2F
 

Christian Soldier

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Don't know what version you read but here's my KJV:

Luke 13:5 KJV: "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

If Jesus says we'll perish if we don't repent, rest assured that everyone before they die will be given opportunity to repent.

My favorite preacher always says "All His biddings are enablings".

Correct, it's never been a matter of "skill" - but "will".

However, our lack of "skill" in obeying God will not excuse us on Judgment Day because our Heavenly Spotter stands ever ready to give us all the skill we need to resist the devil just as the athlete can always count on his spotter.

Are you bragging or complaining?

The Just Man falls seven times into the pit of sin and rises up again...eventually, he learns to keep clear of it.

The Presumptuous Man deliberately climbs down into the pit of sin, sits down comfortably among the filth, swats away the uplifting hand of Jesus, and pushes his OSAS License to Sin in His face.

Which are you?
The problem with your interpretation of Luke 13:5, is you didn't take into consideration the fact that nobody can ever repent because we all love sin too much to repent of it
How can any sinner who hates God and is enslaved to sin and Satan, change their nature and love what they hate and hate what they love. It's ridiculous to suggest that a leopard can change his spots as you suggest.

Jesus was merely making an observation, saying that those who don't repent perish. There's no invitation in that, it's a condemnation and not an invitation or command as you falsely claim it to be.

So, you believe that everyone is given the choice of eternal paradise and eternal torment in hell but the vast majority choose to spend eternity in hellfire. This is highly offensive to any intelligent person, why in the world would the greatest minds in human history fail to understand that paradise is better than the lake of fire. It's just ridiculous to suggest such nonsense.

Your favorite preacher didn't tell you whom the biddings were directed at, so you don't know how to apply it.

Jesus is not my Gym Buddy, who helps me when I'm in trouble. His Holy Spirit is always watching over me and protecting me. He doesn't only step in when I mess up as you're suggesting.

I'm bragging about God, He's the One who saved me and keeps me saved for all eternity. I have nothing to brag about, since I only contributed a stinking corpse and filthy rags to the finished work of Christ.

Your analogy of the backslider doesn't make biblical sense. Nobody falls into sin by accident, we sin hen we are overcome by our lust. A saved person still sins every single day of his life, we don't attain sinless perfection until we receive our glorified sinless body in the life to come. Until then we will sin everyday, but never lose salvation because our past, present and all future sins have been fully paid for by Christ.

I know you Arminians will accuse the elect of claiming to have a license to sin but that's a Satanic lie. We don't claim to have a license to in, but we do admit that we are still in this body of death and the old nature still cries out to have it's lust satisfied. We don't win every wrestling match against temptation, we are regularly overcome by temptation and sin but God is always faithful to grant us repentance and forgive us and fully restore us every single time.

I pushed Gods hand away more time than I can count, but He has remained faithful and always drew me back to Himself. I hated God and I never would have chosen Him, if He didn't chose me. And it's exactly the same for every other born again believer.
 

Christian Soldier

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There is a problem with your comprehension as it relates to this subject. As I previously stated the conversation has moved past OSAS and now looking into the severity of God's & Christ's warnings. If you want to start a thread on the false teaching of fallen angels by all means start it, i'll contribute.

F2F
Ok, point taken. But, the fact that you have moved on from OSAS doesn't mean it's wrong or that you resolved it. You simply rejected it without any Biblical evidence to support your rejection of that bible doctrine.

I think the "Doctrine of Demons" would be an appropriate subject to discuss because it is taught in many Churches around the world. Jesus predicted, that a time would come when many would fall away and seek false teaches to tickle their ears. We see that happening in our time, so true believers should all we can to uphold the truth of the gospel.
 

face2face

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Ok, point taken. But, the fact that you have moved on from OSAS doesn't mean it's wrong or that you resolved it.
Correct, it just means the points which have been made (in my mind) speak to the true intent of the authors point and OSAS believers are yet to answer the difficult questions presented.

You simply rejected it without any Biblical evidence to support your rejection of that bible doctrine.
You should read the exchanges between Mailman and myself, I think we covered a lot of ground in that discussion and while we didnt come to mutual agreement I believe the Scriptures are clear that OSAS is a man-made teaching.
I think the "Doctrine of Demons" would be an appropriate subject to discuss because it is taught in many Churches around the world. Jesus predicted, that a time would come when many would fall away and seek false teaches to tickle their ears. We see that happening in our time, so true believers should all we can to uphold the truth of the gospel.
with deceiving spirits and demonic teachings 1 Tim 4:1.

These are things of the flesh, carnal in nature; its nuanced language of the day...Paul defines this more clearly here:

But evil people (flesh) and charlatans will go from bad to worse, deceiving others and being deceived themselves. 2 Tim 3:13.

Due to your incorrect teaching you have been led to believe in notions of ethereal spirits and dark forces of evil but the Word of God is silent on such things. If you want to start a thread, happy to show you a better way.

F2F
 

BlessedPeace

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BibleRefLogo_Horizontal_FullColor_Small.jpg


What does Hebrews 6 mean?
Chapter Commentary:

Hebrews chapter 6 represents a high point in the letter. At the end of chapter 5, the author began another warning about the danger of rejecting the gospel in favor of a more culture-friendly faith. Specifically, this work is directed to persecuted Jewish Christians. Many such believers felt pressure to return to a less-controversial Judaism. Much of the material in this book is presented in a "good versus perfect" style. Hebrews shows how the relationship we have with Christ is the intended fulfillment of God's plan.

The last verses of chapter 5 accused the readers of being spiritually immature. Despite being Christians for some reasonable amount of time, they were still hung up on simple concepts.

This criticism echoes other warnings given so far in this letter. God's intent for the Christian believer is not to be inert, but to experience continual growth and maturity. If we are lazy, disinterested, or careless, we not only miss the blessings of wisdom, we run the risk of disobedience or discouragement.

The author of Hebrews intends to explain some tough spiritual concepts, but realizes those reading this letter are probably not ready for them. All the same, his intent is to simply move along, presenting these truths as an opportunity for the audience to "catch up," spiritually speaking.

Along the way, Hebrews chapter 6 presents comments about concepts such as "falling away" and "repentance" which are extremely easy to misunderstand. Context, here especially, is crucial in grasping the complete meaning of these verses.

Many approach these verses superficially, and come away with the impression that the warning is about losing one's salvation. Taken out of the surrounding passage, this is an understandable mistake. But, in context, it's not nearly what the author intends.

The major interpretations of verses 4 through 6 include a loss of salvation (biblically impossible)
, those who are "almost but not quite" saved (contrary to the context), risk of disqualification from Christian service resulting in judgment based on disobedience (reasonable), and a hypothetical-but-impossible loss of salvation (also reasonable).

The ultimate meaning of these words is very similar to the example given of Israel's failure at the borders of the Promised Land, from chapters 3 and 4. When Israel failed to show trusting faith, the nation was subjected to harsh judgment before being able to take their rightful place in Canaan. Hebrews warns the reader not to make this same mistake. Then, in chapter 6, the point is made that those who have learned the basic truths of the gospel, yet "fall away," find themselves in a precarious position. Like a field that only bears thorns, there is only one way to restore them: fire. In context, this is not hell, but the cleansing fire of God's judgment during one's earthly life—just as Israel was tried, but not destroyed, in wandering the desert for forty years.

After this, chapter 6 continues to warn against spiritual immaturity, but with a more uplifting tone. The reader is reminded that God is faithful to reward those who seek Him. In fact, the promises made by God are absolutely secure, since they are tied to the ultimate standard of truth: God Himself. This brilliantly motivating passage ties together prior images, such as Christ's high priesthood, the image of the Holy Places of the temple, an anchor, and a place of refuge. Our purpose in seeking to know God better, then, is fused to our trust in Him, and His promises, despite the struggles we may face in the world.

Verse Context:
Hebrews 6:1–3 is the author's answer to the problem posed at the end of chapter 5. The readers are spiritually immature, and so there is a good chance they will miss the deeper meanings which the book of Hebrews means to explore. Here, however, the author resolves not to waste time on elementary teachings. Instead, he will press on and allow the audience to ''catch up'' as they are able.

Hebrews 6:4–8 is frequently cited by those who doubt the doctrine of eternal security, easily more so than any other passage in the New Testament. For that reason, it can be said these words are among the New Testament's most often misunderstood.

Taken in context, this passage is a warning to Christians about the potential consequences of shallow, immature faith.

Those who fall into doubt and disobedience cannot be ''restored,'' except by the fire of God's judgment. There is a natural flow in this part of Hebrews: from spiritual immaturity, to its consequences, to the confidence which ought to inspire our growth.

Hebrews 6:9–12 provides a softer tone than the prior passage.

The writer has criticized the Hebrew Christians for their lack of spiritual maturity, and warned them of the serious danger presented by such a shallow faith. At the same time, these verses indicate that they were doing well in their service to God and their love for others.

This section of Scripture reassures the reader that the intent here is to encourage them to continued growth—not to frighten or intimidate them. The next verses will highlight the reasons all Christians can approach their faith with confidence.

Hebrews 6:13–20 completes the transition from dire warning, to encouragement, back to the prior topic. Prior sections gave a strong warning against believers ''falling away'' due to a shallow, immature faith. The passage immediately prior encouraged the readers that their good works proved sincerity. Here, the writer outlines the assurance which allows Christians to grow in their faith despite persecution. With Abraham as a prime example, these verses explain that Christians have the ultimate source of confident hope: the perfect high priesthood of Jesus Christ.

Chapter Summary:
Chapter 6 expands on the dangers of a shallow, immature faith.

Rather than attempting to re-explain the basics, the author intends to press on. According to this passage, shallow faith opens up the risks of doubt, discouragement, and disobedience. These lead to a situation where one's only hope for restoration is through judgment, much as Israel experienced for forty years in the wilderness. Since our hope is anchored in the proven, unchanging, perfect, absolute nature of God, we should be confident and patient, rather than fearful.

Chapter Context:
Chapter 6 completes a warning begun in the last verses of chapter 5. The author has deep points to make, but doubts that the readers are ready for them.

Yet the only course of action is to press on: there is no time to re-establish the ABCs of the faith. Spiritual immaturity prevents growth, leading to doubt, discouragement, and eventually to judgment. Those who only scratch the surface of Christianity, then fall into disobedience, can't be restored to good standing until they've experienced some level of judgment. Rather than make that mistake, we should trust in the absolute promises of God, and the work of Christ, as we patiently pursue godly wisdom. Chapter 7 will resume the extensive discussion of Melchizedek's priesthood.

Book Summary:
The book of Hebrews is meant to challenge, encourage, and empower Christian believers. According to this letter, Jesus Christ is superior to all other prophets and all other claims to truth. Since God has given us Christ, we ought to listen to what He says and not move backwards.

The consequences of ignoring God are dire. Hebrews is important for drawing on many portions of the Old Testament in making a case that Christ is the ultimate and perfect expression of God's plan for mankind. This book presents some tough ideas about the Christian faith, a fact the author makes specific note of."


Source:
 

face2face

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Along the way, Hebrews chapter 6 presents comments about concepts such as "falling away" and "repentance" which are extremely easy to misunderstand. Context, here especially, is crucial in grasping the complete meaning of these verses.
Okay...I'm expectant of receiving wisdom....!
Many approach these verses superficially, and come away with the impression that the warning is about losing one's salvation. Taken out of the surrounding passage, this is an understandable mistake. But, in context, it's not nearly what the author intends.
Still waiting....
The major interpretations of verses 4 through 6 include a loss of salvation (biblically impossible),
Still waiting.
those who are "almost but not quite" saved (contrary to the context), risk of disqualification from Christian service resulting in judgment based on disobedience (reasonable), and a hypothetical-but-impossible loss of salvation (also reasonable).
Whoever wrote this appears to be sitting on a pointy picket fence which isn't comfortable.

Thanks for sharing but I'd rather mailmans "explaining away" post, than this, which really offers nothing in the way of textual criticism.

The brackets () is a let down really.

F2F
 

mailmandan

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Hebrews 6:4-6, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

This is a sobering passage that underscores the seriousness of apostasy, particularly among those who have experienced the fullness of God's grace and revelation. The opening verse emphasizes that those who were "once enlightened" have encountered the truth of God's Word and His Spirit. They have not only tasted but have become partakers of the Holy Ghost, experiencing the transformative power of God in their lives. This indicates a profound spiritual encounter where individuals have genuinely received the indwelling presence and guidance of the Holy Spirit, marking a significant step in their journey of faith.

The passage continues by stating that these individuals have "tasted the good word of God," indicating a personal experience of God's truth and promises, and have also tasted "the powers of the world to come," experiencing glimpses of the supernatural kingdom of God and its future blessings. These experiences highlight a deep involvement and intimacy with God's divine purposes and spiritual realities.

However, the warning in verse 6 is stark: if these individuals should "fall away," there is a dire consequence—they cannot be renewed again to repentance. This does not imply that God is unwilling to forgive, but rather, it underscores the severity of turning away from the faith after such profound experiences. The phrase "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" vividly portrays the seriousness of apostasy, likening it to a repeated rejection and dishonor of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. It signifies a deliberate turning away from the truth and grace that they once embraced, thus putting Christ to an open shame by rejecting His redemptive work and its ongoing power in their lives.

Hebrews 10:26-27, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

Is understood as a solemn warning against the dangers of willful sin and apostasy after receiving the knowledge of the truth. This passage emphasizes the seriousness of deliberate disobedience among believers who have experienced the full revelation of God's truth through the gospel. When someone knowingly turns away from God's will and persists in sin despite knowing better, they reject the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that cleanses from all sin. In this state, there is no other sacrifice available to atone for their sins because Christ's sacrifice on the cross was complete and sufficient for all who repent and believe (Hebrews 10:12). Instead of forgiveness and reconciliation, such individuals face a fearful expectation of judgment and wrath from God. This judgment is described as fiery indignation, symbolizing the severe consequences awaiting those who reject God's grace and choose to live in opposition to His revealed truth.

This passage underscores the importance of genuine repentance and obedience among believers. It serves as a sober reminder that salvation is not merely a one-time event but a continual relationship with God marked by faithfulness and obedience. The Bible emphasize the necessity of remaining steadfast in faith and living a holy life empowered by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Through daily reliance on God's grace and the sanctifying work of the Spirit, believers are enabled to resist sin and maintain a close relationship with God, avoiding the perilous path of willful disobedience that leads to spiritual ruin.
In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, see post #19 from the link below:

In regard to Hebrews 10:26-27, see post #37 from the link below:
 

Hepzibah

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@marks I hope you don't mind me moving this post of yours here as it is discussing the same subject:

@marks what do you understand about the warnings in Hebrews? Don't they make clear that here is a danger of falling away?
I don't understand them that way.

"There remains no more sacrifice", this means once you've learned about Jesus, you can't go back to offering sheep, and goats, and bulls, as if Jesus' blood were not better than animal blood.

"No more" here is a key word, the series of sacrifices ends. No more, of a series. Used in the same way a number of other places in the NT.

If you want to look at particular verses, post them for me, and we can look at them.

Much love!

So if we could start here with your understanding of the verse:

Hebrews 6:4-6, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
 

mailmandan

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Could the genuine become pseudo?
No.
Can the pseudo become geniune?
If they repent and believe the gospel.
If your faith is Christ seeking and your works are his - you have nothing to fear. As the Lord would say “Go now and leave your life of sin”, and for those who seek for honour, glory and immortality he is just to give it in that day. I don't know your future, neither do you though I've seen in my short life "many" who are the four soils of the parable of the sower! All four received the seed and only one soil was cultivated and tilled that it might grow. I get OSAS believers don't want to talk about the fate of those who allow the world to choke the life out of them but the judgement will be such a place as you will witness! We can trust, take confidence and live in the shadow of His Grace; but we can never assume we are saved! Only those like Paul who had run the race (past tense) who had fought the good fight can absolutely know with no doubt whatsoever that a crown of righteousness is laid up for him...will every believer receive such a crown?
How many works? Do you teach sinless perfection? Seeking honor, glory and immortality is 'descriptive' of believers/Christians. So, we can never assume we are saved/have eternal life? Believers have absolutely no assurance of salvation? I never had assurance prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church. Should I scratch 1 John 5:11-13 out of my Bible? In regard to the parable of the 4 soils, only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced crops of any size and there is no mention of choking or withering away afterwards.

In the case of the thorny ground hearer, the plant was never firmly rooted and established in which it could produce fruit (even though there was motion and movement toward becoming an established plant) but it was choked out before reaching its desired goal because the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful/bears no fruit, produces nothing. (Mark 4:19). Faith without works is dead. The word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who produce no good fruit at all are not truly converted.

You said - "We can trust, take confidence and live in the shadow of His Grace; but we can never assume we are saved!" :oops: That is disturbing and is exactly what I was taught in the Roman Catholic church. NOSAS leads to performance-based works salvation (typically salvation by works at the back door) and no assurance of salvation.

The Bible mentions five different crowns.


The imperishable crown - (1 Corinthians 9:25)
The crown of righteousness - (2 Timothy 4:8)
The crown of rejoicing - (1 Thessalonians 2:19)
The crown of life - (James 1:12; Revelation 2:10)
The crown of glory - (1 Peter 5:4)

Will every believer receive all five crowns?
 

mailmandan

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John quoted Jesus Christ.

These are His words, not mine --

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

For those who follow Jesus Christ and His teachings, here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ -

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit, but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established.
Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

Now the Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. Abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience that is only available to a few, elite Christians, but is the position of all genuine believers. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

You turn abiding in Christ into "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door.

Keeping His commandments is 'descriptive' of those who abide in Christ. Believers "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments BECAUSE we know Him and not in order to know Him. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. (This is descriptive of genuine believers) 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (That is descriptive of unbelievers)

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard (biblehub.com)

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him and not merely theoretical knowledge.
 

JLB

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Read John 6, and read John 15

I did post scripture. I just did not post the exact verses.. But if your a christian and true bible reader. I would not have to. You would know the verses I spoke of.’’


Here is what I read in John 15 -


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how The Apostle John instructs us to remain in Christ -


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Here are other scriptures about His Commandments -


Now by this we know that we know (have eternal life) Him, if we keep His commandments. 1 John 2:3

He who says, “I know Him,” (I have eternal life) and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

Notice that this is the biblical way, The Spirit of God is instructing us to love; Love God and love our brother.

Violating His commandments is expressing hate against God and our brother.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15







JLB
 
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JLB

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In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit, but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established.
Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

Now the Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. Abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience that is only available to a few, elite Christians, but is the position of all genuine believers. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

You turn abiding in Christ into "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door.

Keeping His commandments is 'descriptive' of those who abide in Christ. Believers "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments BECAUSE we know Him and not in order to know Him. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. (This is descriptive of genuine believers) 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (That is descriptive of unbelievers)

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard (biblehub.com)

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him and not merely theoretical knowledge.


I haven't turn any scripture into anything.


I'm showing what the scripture teaches. If you choose not to believe it, in favor of some other teaching then that is your choice.


Here is what I read in John 15 -


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how The Apostle John instructs us to remain in Christ -


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Here are other scriptures about His Commandments -


Now by this we know that we know (have eternal life) Him, if we keep His commandments. 1 John 2:3

He who says, “I know Him,” (I have eternal life) and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

Notice that this is the biblical way, The Spirit of God is instructing us to love; Love God and love our brother.

Violating His commandments is expressing hate against God and our brother.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15





JLB
 

mailmandan

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I haven't turn any scripture into anything.


I'm showing what the scripture teaches. If you choose not to believe it, in favor of some other teaching then that is your choice.

Here is what I read in John 15 -

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how The Apostle John instructs us to remain in Christ -

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

Here are other scriptures about His Commandments -

Now by this we know that we know (have eternal life) Him, if we keep His commandments. 1 John 2:3

He who says, “I know Him,” (I have eternal life) and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

Notice that this is the biblical way, The Spirit of God is instructing us to love; Love God and love our brother.

Violating His commandments is expressing hate against God and our brother.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

JLB
Your eisegesis culminates in "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door. Believers "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments BECAUSE we abide in Him and not in order to abide in Him. John draws a contrast between believers who know that they have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments (1 John 2:3) with make believers who merely say they have come to know Him,” yet do not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. Such people are liars, and the truth is not in them according to John. You confuse cause and effect.

Elsewhere in scripture, John draws a contrast between children of God and children of the devil in 1 John 3:9-10. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Also, in 1 John 4:7-8, we see another contrast - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) The love of God has been poured out in our (believers) hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5)

Hates his brother in 1 John 3:15 is 'descriptive' of children of the devil. 1 John 2:9 Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

You must not confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture or children of God with children of the devil.
 
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