OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[mailmandan]

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin, starting with the house of God. And if it starts with us, what will be the fate (end)

The time stamps, "begin" and "end", indicate the divine scrutiny of those who are living by faith and those who are not. We can call them wheat and tares; sheep and goats etc etc.

Questions: Is it right to assume OSAS is a "no matter what you do doctrine?" and if so, any and all scrutiny of the Elect, or rejected matters not. If the implication of 1 Peter 4:17,18 is that they are saved no matter what they do, divine assessment has no value whatsoever and no consequence either.

Thankfully I'm not a Catholic though I do believe faith without works is dead! And, yes a person can lose their salvation.

I already explained this and there are only sheep and goats. There are no shoats. Also, faith without works is dead does not mean that we are saved by both faith and works as Catholics and other works-salvationists teach.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

So "faith without works is dead," does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

Please show me the words, "lose your salvation" in scripture.

 

[face2face]

you can try 10000000 times, It still says was NEAR to being cursed.

for the reader who is looking. near to being cursed is not the same as being cursed. Which means they are still saved.

The poster F2F can not get out of his own legalistic mindset to read the passage as written.

Eternally, I see what you are doing here (forgive me it took a while to connect the dots!)- you are taking the Gk meaning "near to be cursed" and implying this person if persisting with this manner of life will NOt be burned - however that is not what is written!

"its fate is to be burned" Heb 6:8.

The writer of the Hebrews then goes on...

6:9 But in your case, dear friends, even though we speak like this, we are convinced of better things relating to salvation.

So you understand the intent of the verse? Yeah? Actually, I dont believe you are able to "talk like this" am I right? OSAS wont allow you to, correct? Just a side observation.

In all honestly, I'm not sure how deep you understanding goes, lets see.

You need to agree this section of Hebrews 6 is a warning - you would be a fool to argue against that - I need to understand I'm not speaking to a fool but someone who at least undestand the words before them on face value.

Does “God warn of conceivable consequences, not probable consequences.”

What I mean here is God warn of a future curse as a consequence which will result in permanent death?

If God here is stating that His Elect will perservere in obedience and if the warnings are used to secure that perseverance, then God is threatening his people with a destiny He knows will never happen.

Can you see the issue?

If He is telling them they might lose their salvation in order to motivate them by fear (I mean a wholesome fear, not terrifying!) to perserve.

How can a God of truth use lies to accomplish His purpose of holiness in His elect?

Now this is not a deliemma for me, as I understand the weight of severity behind God's Words, but for you, you must conclude your God is a lier.

That is a terrible situation to arrive at if you read Hebrews 6:4-6 and then Hebrews 6:6-9

Just for the moment, say I am right - or should I say the writer of Hebrews is right.

Verse 6 means “to commit apostasy”...if one holds wrong teaching and teaches it, you are committing apostacy. The context is "falling away"...which to me means they have know truth, however, lets say the context is unbelievers preaching lies - an unbeliever who apostacises cannot lose salvation, as they never had it to begin with, however a believer who apostacises can lose salvation.

Will leave it these.

I am expecting more than your usual response on this one Eternally.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Now this is funny,

Let the reader see what happened here

He claims here he is not worthy, Yet attacks the people who understand what it means to be "poor in spirit" and unworthy, and give their eternity to the one who saved them.

while he pumps his chest and claims he is worthy (he must be for his gospel of losable salvation to be truthful)

this is what it looks like when you do not practice what you preach and are deceived by your own doctrine.

I'll leave this comment for now as we have a more integral communication going and this is just lacks substance on your part. I know its not funny but you struggle to find another intellegent way to reposte.
F2F

 

[face2face]

The condition is a confirmation of who His sheep are.

An ongoing confirmation, yes!

 

[mailmandan]

An ongoing confirmation, yes!

You make it sound like the ongoing part is a difficult burden and either some or even most of His sheep will surely fail to remain His sheep. Nothing that Jesus said in John 10:27-30 implies that. Jesus said, "I give them eternal life, (not temporary life) and they shall never perish; (not some or most might still perish) and no one will snatch them out of my hand. (not some or most of them will be snatched out of His hand)

You seem to be suffering from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome.

 

[face2face]

I already explained this and there are only sheep and goats. There are no shoats. Also, faith without works is dead does not mean that we are saved by both faith and works as Catholics and other works-salvationists teach.

It's as the saying goes "you're not saved by works, but your not saved without them"...its a fruitless argument you present because the fruits of faith belong to God and not man! A light cannot be hid and the cup of water must be given!

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

A long drawn out way of saying that true faith in God will produce works, agree! The importance is we both agree we are save BY Grace through Faith. Eph 2:8

Faith is the substance which leads us to Grace both day to day and if we endure, the end, salvation. OSAS aims to remove the need for faith and by inference works...

OSAS is now removed from the discussion.

So "faith without works is dead," does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

Agree. Did you want to comment about the believe who receives nothing from the Lord?

Please show me the words, "lose your salvation" in scripture.

Please show me the words Once saved always saved?

Post #242 might interest you, i'd be interest in your insight into Hebrews 6:4-9

F2F

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You make it sound like the ongoing part is a difficult burden and either some or even most of His sheep will surely fail to remain His sheep. Nothing that Jesus said in John 10:27-30 implies that. Jesus said, "I give them eternal life, (not temporary life) and they shall never perish; (not some or most might still perish) and no one will snatch them out of my hand. (not some or most of them will be snatched out of His hand)

You seem to be suffering from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome.

lol,

they lack faith that he who began a good work. will complete it

they believe God may not complete it. because they can overpower God and stop him from completing it.

They also reject Jesus promise that whoever recieves him will NEVER perish, but will live forever (eternal life)

They can not get out of their own way..

 

[mailmandan]

It's as the saying goes "you're not saved by works, but your not saved without them"...its a fruitless argument you present because the fruits of faith belong to God and not man! A light cannot be hid and the cup of water must be given!

A long drawn out way of saying that true faith in God will produce works, agree! The importance is we both agree we are save BY Grace through Faith. Eph 2:8

Faith is the substance which leads us to Grace both day to day and if we endure, the end, salvation. OSAS aims to remove the need for faith and by inference works...

OSAS is now removed from the discussion.

Agree. Did you want to comment about the believe who receives nothing from the Lord?

Please show me the words Once saved always saved?

Post #242 might interest you, i'd be interest in your insight into Hebrews 6:4-9

F2F

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28) It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

Your straw man arguments do not remove OSAS from the discussion.

You will not find the specific words, "once saved always saved" in the Bible but you will find the words, "His saints are preserved forever" in Psalm 37:28. You will also find that those who believe the gospel are "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession." (Ephesians 1:13-14) You will also find whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. Notice that Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

In regard to Hebrews 6:4-9, see post #19 from the link below:

Can a Believer Loose Their Salvation?

The answer is yes, because believing on Jesus Christ as God's promised Savior is a CHOICE, not a forced decision. If someone who claims to have believed on Jesus Christ at some time later changes his/her mind, and falls away from Christ Jesus to another, then yes, they have lost... their...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[face2face]

You make it sound like the ongoing part is a difficult burden and either some or even most of His sheep will surely fail to remain His sheep.

Does the NT record place emphasis on enduring to the end? Why so?

Nothing that Jesus said in John 10:27-30 implies that. Jesus said, "I give them eternal life, (not temporary life) and they shall never perish; (not some or most might still perish) and no one will snatch them out of my hand. (not some or most of them will be snatched out of His hand)

You seem to be suffering from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome.

No, I understand the doctrine is false based on non-Biblical principles.


Those who are saved, are saved in the end (God Knows) ...are we at the end? Do you know the outcome of your life, or those in this forum? Do you understand the dangers of teaching a false message of hope, if it’s not established in truth?

When John 10 is completely known to you and those who were lost like John 17:12 is for us now! that the Scripture might be fulfilled; I think many Scriptures will come to life and a realisation that many were called but few chosen, some fell away to their own destruction though God and Christ knew of those who would be saved. The issue with OSAS is you and I are not in that position...and the period of testing is not over!

If the OSAS was to speak in terms of 1 Peter 1:7 then we would find agreement.

so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

In effect a OSAS believer is saying "I know before the testing my faith will result.....before the test!"

It may not.

Humility / Contrite Spirit and a fearful (reverence) expectation of the Lord is the faithful approach.

F2F

 

[mailmandan]

Does the NT record place emphasis on enduring to the end? Why so?

No, I understand the doctrine is false based on non-Biblical principles.

Those who are saved, are saved in the end (God Knows) ...are we at the end? Do you know the outcome of your life, or those in this forum? Do you understand the dangers of teaching a false message of hope, if it’s not established in truth?

When John 10 is completely known to you and those who were lost like John 17:12 is for us now! that the Scripture might be fulfilled; I think many Scriptures will come to life and a realisation that many were called but few chosen, some fell away to their own destruction though God and Christ knew of those who would be saved. The issue with OSAS is you and I are not in that position...and the period of testing is not over!

If the OSAS was to speak in terms of 1 Peter 1:7 then we would find agreement.

so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

In effect a OSAS believer is saying "I know before the testing my faith will result.....before the test!"

It may not.

Humility / Contrite Spirit and a fearful (reverence) expectation of the Lord is the faithful approach.

F2F

The NT places emphasis on enduring to the end because that separates genuine Christians from pseudo-Christians. Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. We are saved in the end from the PRESENCE of sin and that's called glorification. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin now (past tense with ongoing present results) in this lifetime. That's called justification.

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."

John 13:18 - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' OSAS still stands.

God knows who has genuine faith and who does not and genuine believers can KNOW they have eternal life. (1 John 5:11-13) Praise God!

 

[face2face]

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works.

Correct.

So continued faith is required, is it not?

(James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28) It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

You seem to have a hang up about works? Have you come out of a works based faith? If you want to seperate faith and works you will be at this all night long! Paul & James are in harmony!

Your straw man arguments do not remove OSAS from the discussion.

I've always found in discussing difficult subjects when the opponent mentions strawman arguments it’s because they are losing ground. Strick to the discussion mailman!

You will not find the specific words, "once saved always saved" in the Bible

but you will find the words, "His saints are preserved forever" in Psalm 37:28.

Okay you have introduced a new verse, excellent.

I don't disagree with this at all, they are, and they are known to Him...I'm sorry to say, you are not in the know!

The godly will possess the land and will dwell in it permanently. Ps 37:29.

He knows who are godly and who are evil and He will reveal this in the last days. Happy for you to show me what it means to be godly and how His Protection of that godliness is secure.

Ulimately you will lead us all to a life of probation and testing.

You will also find that those who believe the gospel are "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession." (Ephesians 1:13-14) You will also find whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. Notice that Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

You are going over old ground mailman. God knows the end from the beginning.

Why don't you speak to the verses that show unbelief, falling away, those who have tasted the good works of God and even had the HS and yet crucify the Son of God afresh? Why do you only show verses of those saved in the end?

Hmmm you are becoming repetitive

In regard to Hebrews 6:4-9, see post #19 from the link below:

Can a Believer Loose Their Salvation?

The answer is yes, because believing on Jesus Christ as God's promised Savior is a CHOICE, not a forced decision. If someone who claims to have believed on Jesus Christ at some time later changes his/her mind, and falls away from Christ Jesus to another, then yes, they have lost... their...

www.christianityboard.com

I'll take a look thanks
F2F

 

[face2face]

The NT places emphasis on enduring to the end because that separates genuine Christians from pseudo-Christians.

And you know one from the other? The one who will be rejected over the one accepted? Could the genuine become pseudo? Can the pseudo become geniune?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The NT places emphasis on enduring to the end because that separates genuine Christians from pseudo-Christians. Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. We are saved in the end from the PRESENCE of sin and that's called glorification. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin now (past tense with ongoing present results) in this lifetime. That's called justification.

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."

John 13:18 - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' OSAS still stands.

God knows who has genuine faith and who does not and genuine believers can KNOW they have eternal life. (1 John 5:11-13) Praise God!

endur to the end was a command given to those in the tribulation period. those who endure long enough will be saved when Christ returns.

It has nothing to do with eternal salvation. If we had to endure to be saved, we would be under law not grace..

 

[mailmandan]

I've always found in discussing difficult subjects when the opponent mentions strawman arguments it’s because they are losing ground. Strick to the discussion mailman!

You are going over old ground mailman.

Why don't you speak to the verses that show unbelief, falling away, those who have tasted the good works of God and even had the HS and yet crucify the Son of God afresh? Why do you only show verses of those saved in the end?

Hmmm you are becoming repetitive

Yawn. Spoken by someone who is losing ground.

 

[face2face]

@mailmandan

Your Quote "It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and you can't always tell them apart at first."

Your justification to fit OSAS into Hebrews 6 was an attempt, but that is all it was. Your conclusion here shows how damaging OSAS is for one who as you put it is a "nominal" Christian.

Let’s talk to the context of Hebrews for a moment.

If in fact the writer is speaking to those enlightened who have a full and complete knowledge of Christ / Gospel etc and they fall way back into Judaism; is the warning of the loss of salvation truth, or lies? If this is true, then OSAS falls over as there are many Gospels but only One Can save.

There are two words which present a problem for you in Hebrews 6

6:3 And this is what we intend to do, if God permits. 6:4 For it is impossible (for whom?) in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 6:5 tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age, 6:6 and then have committed apostasy, to renew them again to repentance, since they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again and holding him up to contempt. Heb 6:3–6.

Firstly, there is a lot going on between "impossible" and the added emphasis "again", which you would conveniently explain away.

In relation to the Holy Spirit you said

"There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive"

So am I right in saying you wish to water down every aspect of this section of Scripture to allow your OSAS to fit the text? I mean, so far you have qualified every single passage with this v that...Genuine Christian vs Pseudo Christian, surely you only have so much water in your possession?

Out of interest, do you do this with all of Scripture? Or only those text which are problematic for your OSAS bias?

If you believe verse 4-6 is speaking to believers, which I think you do, then OSAS is clearly dismissed because the reality of those who reject the Gospel, or change it to suit their own beliefs are apostate and should clearly fear the meeting of the Lord.

You have shown me enough evidence in your treatment of Hebrews 6 to know you are fully convinced in your own mind of OSAS teachings and the extent you are willing to go suggests you will not be moved.

I respect that, but its unwise to handle the Word of God so carelessly.

F2F

 

[Eternally Grateful]

stop feeding them.

Nothing you say will convince them of their legalism, or cause them to repent.

 

[mailmandan]

endur to the end was a command given to those in the tribulation period. those who endure long enough will be saved when Christ returns.

It has nothing to do with eternal salvation. If we had to endure to be saved, we would be under law not grace..

I have also heard the interpretation in that case as endure to the end to be saved from physical death. Believers in general do not endure to the end in faith simply because of self will power. God not only saves us but He also keeps us. (John 6:39-40; John 17:11-12; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5; Jude 1:1, 24 etc..)

 

[face2face]

Yawn. Spoken by someone who is losing ground.

Look, the observation is right that your arguments are weak and they don't speak to the severity of the Word.
Thanks for the discussion
F2F

 

[face2face]

stop feeding them.

Nothing you say will convince them of their legalism, or cause them to repent.

#242 has a few interesting questions which you overlooked.
F2F

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I have also heard the interpretation in that case as endure to the end to be saved from physical death. Believers in general do not endure to the end in faith simply because of self will power. God not only saves us but He also keeps us. (John 6:39-40; John 17:11-12; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5; Jude 1:1, 24 etc..)

yes,

Jesus was not telling the disciples to endure and they would enter heaven, He was telling those alive at the time, to endure.. They will need that and more motivation to continue on. and not give up.