OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[face2face]

"God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican..."

"Us and them"

.

Now this is the contrite Spirit God is looking for Barney - well done! And God willing you will hear those precious words:

His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Matt 25:21

F2F

 

[BlessedPeace]

Thank you too.

John 10:28 proves Eternal Irrevocable Salvation is true 4 different ways.

John 10 Complete Jewish Bible version (*my edit)

24 So the Judeans surrounded him (*Yeshua) and said to him, “How much longer are you going to keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us publicly!” 25 Yeshua answered them, “I have already told you, and you don’t trust me. The works I do in my Father’s name testify on my behalf, 26 but the reason you don’t trust is that you are not included among my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice, I recognize them, they follow me, 28 and I give them eternal life. They will absolutely never be destroyed, and no one will snatch them from my hands. 29 My Father, who gave them to me, is greater than all; and no one can snatch them from the Father’s hands. 30 I and the Father are one.

 

[BarneyFife]

Now this is the contrite Spirit God is looking for Barney - well done! And God willing you will hear those precious words:

His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Matt 25:21

F2F

I'm not worthy.

.

 

[face2face]

I'm not worthy.

.

Know the feeling Barney.
I've gone overly hard at the OSAS believers in the hope they will see a broken spirit does not presume upon His Kindness.
F2F

 

[face2face]

John 10 Complete Jewish Bible version (*my edit)

24 So the Judeans surrounded him (*Yeshua) and said to him, “How much longer are you going to keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us publicly!” 25 Yeshua answered them, “I have already told you, and you don’t trust me. The works I do in my Father’s name testify on my behalf, 26 but the reason you don’t trust is that you are not included among my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice, I recognize them, they follow me, 28 and I give them eternal life. They will absolutely never be destroyed, and no one will snatch them from my hands. 29 My Father, who gave them to me, is greater than all; and no one can snatch them from the Father’s hands. 30 I and the Father are one.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Your inference Christian - where did I say that? Show me Post#

You think you can connect OSAS with God's Promises, which can only be received by Faith - no other way...this is why Jesus Prayed the Peters Faith fail not, for to do so would see him lose his salvation just as you rightly said Judas had done.

The example of Judas destroys OSAS and the fact that Jesus prayed for a mans faith to fail not also lays down OSAS.



No, again these are your words not mine - you know this and I'm sure in your reply you will acknowledge this honestly.



Who are the sheep and who are the thieves in John 10? If I asked you to identify all the sheep in this forum how would you know they are sheep? Do you actually know them, can you look upon their hearts? Do you know they will be saved or not?

OSAS falls over once again! Only the Father and the Son know who is in the Fathers hand @ScottA doesn't, @BlessedPeace doesn't, I do not know who is in His hand - I know the True Gospel is not taught in this forum so where does that place everyone?



9:35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, so he found the man and said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 9:36 The man replied, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?” 9:37 Jesus told him, “You have seen him; he is the one speaking with you.” [9:38 He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. 9:39 Jesus said,] “For judgment I have come into this world, so that those who do not see may gain their sight, and the ones who see may become blind.” Jn 9:35–39.

What is the condition to enter the door of John 10? The Master has provided it for you above. Come back with your response.



Only by Faith are we saved and not by some man-made doctrine!


His foreknowledge does not preclude how they are saved - yes He knows all things, even those who believe in OSAS who think they are saved and are not! He knows...you do not!

F2F

You trashed Gods promise to preserve His people to the end, so they don't lose His gift of faith to them.

Your claim that Go did not promise to keep His people saved is a lie, God did promise that many times in the Bible but I will just cite one to expose your false claim.

Phil. 1:6 He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it to the end

There's the promise of God that what He starts in our souls, He intends to finish.

You keep pushing mans faith as the only thing that saves him and keeps him saved. I asked you, how a totally depraved wicked man who hates Hod and is dead in sin, can somehow manufacture this magic thing called faith within himself and use it to force God into a contract with him to save him. You have given no answer but you just keep pushing this Satanic lie.

Do you believe that Peter defeated Satan, by outsmarting Him with his own (filthy rag faith) or was it Christ who interceded on Peters behalf and asked God to stop him losing the faith God gave him. You should try read and understand the context of the verses you cite. You can't twist them and make them to say what you want them to say.

Peter did not fall away from the faith because Jesus had interceded for him. Believers can be confident of our salvation because of Jesus’ promise, “I will pray for you.” Our Savior is praying every day at the throne of God that our faith will not fail, no matter how far you fall.

You can't compare your prayers to those of Jesus, you obviously consider the prayers of Jesus to be like a kid making a wish list for Santa Claws. Well I've got news for you, whatever Jesus prays for is already as good as done, because He is the Almighty Jehovah God.

God gave Peter over to Satan, to be sifted as wheat but there was no chance that Peter would be lost because Peter was already saved before the world was created. Just as every other saved person was.

Jesus never set any conditions for salvation in John 10, why are you making up lies again.

Only by grace are we saved and not by some filthy rags as you keep pushing.

You falsely claim that God knows all things, but He is powerless to do anything about they way things are. That is a Satanic lie, the truth is God not only knows all things but He is the cause of all things. He causes and controls everything, He doesn't just sit on His throne hoping that your faith saves you.
God doesn't hope or wish for anything, to suggest that is pure blasphemy.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Have you not read "And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption 1 Corinthians 1:30

Christ is our Righteousness!

F2F

You're still dodging the question, who are the "US" and "OUR" in the verse???

"Who's" righteousness is Christ

It would be very helpful if you, if you gave us some context so we know who these mysterious people are. Are you saying that Satan and Judas Iscariot are included in your US and Our and Who.

The Who, Us and Our, are the elect of God who were saved before the world was created. It's not an offer made to everyone.

 

[Christian Soldier]

You have many man made notions bouncing around in your head none of them are from God. Where does it say Judas was a fallen angel? There is no such creature in all the Word of God. Don't bother trying Christian.


no, you call it trash! I'm saying OSAS is trash!

Best to get that right before you keep flogging a dead horse!

The rest of your post was you running away with some inference which you have created not me.

F2F

I didn't use the term "fallen angel" in reference to Judas, but it can be used interchangeably with "Devil" if you like. I'm surprised by your lack of knowledge regarding what God said. It's one thing to not know, but it's another thing to use your lack of knowledge and ignorance to accuse other who do know of being dishonest.

John 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a Devil?” He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

Are you suggesting that God never knew that Judas was a Devil, and he was somehow saved and then he lost his salvation when he betrayed Jesus. If you believe that nonsense then, it shows that your view of God is very low and it's downright blasphemous to suggest that God can be fooled by a Devil.

You haven't defended any of my charges against you, so you can't just skip over them and move onto other unrelated scriptures.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Amen!

Amen!

Amen - on condition that we repent, of course.

Amen!

Like the athlete who strains with all his might to bench press a tenth rep but the bar won't budge another inch...until the Spotter with just one finger from each hand curls under the bar and helps him finish the rep.

Does he get credit for 10 reps? Neither do we get credit for the obedience that Jesus - our very present Help in time of need - comes and grants us when we're too weak to obey ourselves.

The OSAS crowd reads "flee fornication" but chooses to crawl away from it, hoping it catches up to them.

Jesus never set any conditions to be saved, sinful men added them afterwards. They departed from the gospel that Christ preached and invented the works based gospel which 90% of Christians have embraced.

Please show me where Jesus commands anyone to repent, in order to be saved. Jesus knows it's impossible for anyone to repent unless God first grants repentance to the person by His grace.

The athlete gets ZERO!!!! credit for anything, all the glory belongs to God. The only thing the athlete deserves is eternal torment in hell, for thinking that he deserves some of Gods glory in salvation. We are always too weak to obey any commandments, we don't need Jesus to help us when we are too weak. We need His Holy Spirit to help us, every second of the day, without His constant help, we would immediately be overtaken and consumed by temptation.

I'm in the OSAS crowd, I couldn't count the number of times I backslid and went back into the world to get my fix of sin. Then after indulging in all kinds of depravity, for various lengths of time from weeks to years, God always drew me back to Himself and granted me repentance. So it's not by the choice of man that anyone is saved or kept saved. It's all of God, so OSAS is the truth of the gospel. If you don't believe it then you're calling God a liar.

 

[face2face]

You trashed Gods promise to preserve His people to the end, so they don't lose His gift of faith to them.

You seem to have a cog stuck! Why do you persist to connect OSAS with His Promises?

Your claim that Go did not promise to keep His people saved is a lie, God did promise that many times in the Bible but I will just cite one to expose your false claim.

His Promises are to those who have the faith of Abraham! Those who persevere to the end!

Phil. 1:6 He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it to the end

Very true - but one must know the true Gospel and live according to this commands!

There's the promise of God that what He starts in our souls, He intends to finish.

Soul simply means life. Man does not possess immortality as we have shown many times in this thread

"to those (not all) who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; Romans 2:7

You will start to see how you faith is built on false teachings and this will further undermine your confidence in OSAS.

1. It tells you those save have persevered and suffered for this faith
2. Immortality is not in man its something sought

You keep pushing mans faith as the only thing that saves him and keeps him saved. I asked you, how a totally depraved wicked man who hates Hod and is dead in sin, can somehow manufacture this magic thing called faith within himself and use it to force God into a contract with him to save him. You have given no answer but you just keep pushing this Satanic lie.

So you don't believe faith is what saves you?

10:13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Ro 10:12–13.

No calling in faith = no saving!

Do you believe that Peter defeated Satan, by outsmarting Him with his own (filthy rag faith) or was it Christ who interceded on Peters behalf and asked God to stop him losing the faith God gave him.

Your opinions dont interest me to be frank - show me the Scripture

You should try read and understand the context of the verses you cite. You can't twist them and make them to say what you want them to say.

No, as we are finding this is what you are doing. Actually go back and see how Scott and others failed to deal with all the verses presented. Its for lack of knowledge the people perish!

Peter did not fall away from the faith because Jesus had interceded for him. Believers can be confident of our salvation because of Jesus’ promise, “I will pray for you.” Our Savior is praying every day at the throne of God that our faith will not fail, no matter how far you fall.

See here's the problem with your statement. You say "confidence", but really you mean "guarantee salvation today" regardless of how you act or behave. This is garbage and you know it, so I'm confused why you are in defense of error? Makes no sense!

You can't compare your prayers to those of Jesus, you obviously consider the prayers of Jesus to be like a kid making a wish list for Santa Claws. Well I've got news for you, whatever Jesus prays for is already as good as done, because He is the Almighty Jehovah God.

You see? You can't speak to the Lord in an intimate way as one who knows him. You don't even know how he suffered! You don't have the ability to even get close to his struggle. How long will you keep up the mascaraed?

God gave Peter over to Satan, to be sifted as wheat but there was no chance that Peter would be lost because Peter was already saved before the world was created. Just as every other saved person was.

Who was the Adversary that would do this? Who could have lured him into being deceived?

Jesus never set any conditions for salvation in John 10, why are you making up lies again.

So belief and following after his example is not a condition?

Only by grace are we saved and not by some filthy rags as you keep pushing.

Correct, by Grace, a gift for those who with patience live a Godly Life seeking those things above and not below. If your life is not Grace-Filled and producing faithful works you are not His!

You falsely claim that God knows all things, but He is powerless to do anything about they way things are. That is a Satanic lie, the truth is God not only knows all things but He is the cause of all things. He causes and controls everything, He doesn't just sit on His throne hoping that your faith saves you.
God doesn't hope or wish for anything, to suggest that is pure blasphemy.

Okay, I've got one of those...

Leave you with your crazies Christian - clearly not teachable.

F2F

 

[face2face]

You're still dodging the question, who are the "US" and "OUR" in the verse???

Not dodging anything here Christian.

Could be you...could be me...could be both of us - we will see if we endure till the end

"Who's" righteousness is Christ

Not his own that's for certain. Who did he reveal in his life? Don't say himself please!

It would be very helpful if you, if you gave us some context so we know who these mysterious people are. Are you saying that Satan and Judas Iscariot are included in your US and Our and Who.

Judas' intestines burst forth showing you he will need receive the mercies of God.

The Who, Us and Our, are the elect of God who were saved before the world was created. It's not an offer made to everyone.

True, God knows who they are and He will have mercy on those He will have mercy. Don't be downhearted Christian...Hebrews 11 reveals to those faithful who were saved because of their faith - its impossible to please Him without this type of faith.

F2F

 

[face2face]

I didn't use the term "fallen angel" in reference to Judas, but it can be used interchangeably with "Devil" if you like.

No it cannot - thats the point; you don't understand the meaning of the word or how it is used and its context is never known to you because you believe in lies.

I'm surprised by your lack of knowledge regarding what God said. It's one thing to not know, but it's another thing to use your lack of knowledge and ignorance to accuse other who do know of being dishonest.

John 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a Devil?” He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

And the Disciples looked around at each other and not for some make believe supernatural being. They knew the meaning of the word is "false accuser" and they knew it relates to people!

Are you suggesting that God never knew that Judas was a Devil, and he was somehow saved and then he lost his salvation when he betrayed Jesus.

Judas had free will like all the other disciples; he could have stayed at the last supper and taken part in the wine of fellowship but instead he went out and it was "dark". He show the flesh and its lusts over the Spirit.

I feel sorry for you Christian that you have all this mythological crap in your head, so much so you can't see the truth.

If you believe that nonsense then, it shows that your view of God is very low and it's downright blasphemous to suggest that God can be fooled by a Devil.

You are way off target, way off!

You haven't defended any of my charges against you, so you can't just skip over them and move onto other unrelated scriptures.

I've answered all you nonsense, but soon if you don't cease from speaking what you think you know and start asking intelligent questions of the Word, I'm afraid you will never learn!

F2F

 

[face2face]

In John 10:27-28, we read - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear His voice and some of them don't hear His voice) and I know them, (not some of them He knows and some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow Him and some of them don't follow Him) And I give them eternal life, (not some of them He gives eternal life and some of them He doesn't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will never be snatched out of His hand and some of them will be snatched out of His hand)

In CONTRAST with those do not believe and are not His sheep. (John 10:25-26)

You highlighted a condition - you do realise this right?

 

[face2face]

THIS IS ABOUT PRODUCING FRUIT.

Salvation is not dependent on you producing fruit

You can not sit there and claim your not trying to earn salvation. then in the next breath say you must abide (a work) or you will be cut off and thrown into hell.

Your trying to earn (in this case, not lose) salvation by what you are doing.

I pray you look at your words. and see what I am saying,,

I dont get you Eternally - are the fruits of God, or man?

In affect what you are saying is God isn't interested in fruits.

I think whats happening is your OSAS blindness is stopping you from seeing the larger picture.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Roman Catholics are also fond of this verse and abuse it to teach salvation by works and/or loss of salvation. There is a justifiable need to "add the ungodly and the sinner" because if the righteous need disciplinary judgments, how much more will the unrighteous deserve the wrath of God whose offer of righteousness through faith they have rejected?

The Greek word "molis" means "hardly" or "scarcely" and reveals the difficulties which believers will experience as they are brought to the end of their faith--the salvation of their souls (1 Peter 1:9) through unjust suffering, persecution, divine purging and discipline. It's not about being saved or remaining saved by barely doing enough works or by barely persevering in faith.

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin, starting with the house of God. And if it starts with us, what will be the fate (end)

The time stamps, "begin" and "end", indicate the divine scrutiny of those who are living by faith and those who are not. We can call them wheat and tares; sheep and goats etc etc.

Questions: Is it right to assume OSAS is a "no matter what you do doctrine?" and if so, any and all scrutiny of the Elect, or rejected matters not. If the implication of 1 Peter 4:17,18 is that they are saved no matter what they do, divine assessment has no value whatsoever and no consequence either.

Thankfully I'm not a Catholic though I do believe faith without works is dead! And, yes a person can lose their salvation.

F2F

 

[face2face]

A good illustration of how we are saved is liken to Paul who told the centurion, “Unless these men stay with the ship (in Christ), you cannot be saved” (Acts 27:22, 31) I know again, it requires a condition so that will not go down well with the "do whatever we want" believers - but its a teaching Christ also taught, "But the one who endures to the end will be saved".

I like the word "endures" as it speaks to the reality of being on that ship and the trauma those men went through and the truth as taught by Christ and the Apostles, “It is through many tribulations and hardships that we must enter the kingdom of God.”

OSAS is far too loose a term to speak to the enormity of a faith tried by fire!

F2F

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Try again!

you can try 10000000 times, It still says was NEAR to being cursed.

for the reader who is looking. near to being cursed is not the same as being cursed. Which means they are still saved.

The poster F2F can not get out of his own legalistic mindset to read the passage as written.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Know the feeling Barney.
I've gone overly hard at the OSAS believers in the hope they will see a broken spirit does not presume upon His Kindness.
F2F

Now this is funny,

Let the reader see what happened here

He claims here he is not worthy, Yet attacks the people who understand what it means to be "poor in spirit" and unworthy, and give their eternity to the one who saved them.

while he pumps his chest and claims he is worthy (he must be for his gospel of losable salvation to be truthful)

this is what it looks like when you do not practice what you preach and are deceived by your own doctrine.

 

[mailmandan]

You highlighted a condition - you do realise this right?

The condition is a confirmation of who His sheep are.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The condition is a confirmation of who His sheep are.

its sad they they can't humble themselves..