OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[mailmandan]

I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works (including Roman Catholics, Mormons, SDA's and Campbellites) strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major red flag for me.

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

 

[face2face]

@Christian Soldier

Rather than being angry fellow Christian, we ought to demonstrate this Spirit amongst us.

For this reason deliverance is far from us and salvation does not reach us. We wait for light, but see only darkness; we wait for a bright light, but live in deep darkness. Is 59:9.

This was said out of Israels sin and its this sin which Christ will convince / convict Christianity and the World of at his coming - John 16:8.

The OSAS nonsense must stop and be replaced with fruits/works meet for repentance.

This is enough.

F2F

 

[face2face]

I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works (including Roman Catholics and Mormons) strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major red flag for me.

Salvation is not probation.

Probation is the path/Way to salvation - Israel failed in the wilderness - read Hebrews 3 (Christians are warned not to follow their example)

Eternal life is not temporary life.

True, its sought through perserverence - read Romans 2:7

Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

Theives will try and find another way however the only way to the Father is through His Son. Many assume to abide in him but live contrary to his commands. The preaching of OSAS deceives people into a false sense of salvation. God is not a debtor! He will show mercy on whom He will show mercy.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has an evil, unbelieving heart that forsakes the living God. 3:13 But exhort one another each day, as long as it is called “Today,” that none of you may become hardened by sin’s deception. 3:14 For we have become partners with Christ, if in fact we hold our initial confidence firm until the end Heb 3:12–14.

If only the OSAS beleivers could speak to "firm until the end!" or "exhort one another" not with OSAS nonsense, but with true Bible Principles admonishing one another and edifying one another in the Holy Word as you all see the day of Christ coming grow closer and closer.

Imagine a younger believer reading this OSAS nonsense, and they say after relaxing their faith and dedication, "Im okay because of my “conversion!” Then he goes onto say, I'll pick up the plowshare again one day soon. In the mean time the Lord returns to find what?

How deceived would this young man be all becuase he read here by some uninformed beleiver, “once saved, always saved.”

Nowhere does this message fit within Bible Teaching, nowhere.

F2F

 

[Christian Soldier]

That list was a hard read for you Scott, I get it....was it the emphasis of "till the end?"

The end matters not to you because like a game show, you have locked salvation in!

Sad part is, you couldn't speak to one of those verses, not one!

I've shown you a true and balanced understanding of all the verses you have presented, so go back over the replies and see how much Scripture has fallen through your hands to the ground - and you say with confidence you have salvation?

Go away and learn what this means "In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence"

Show us this Spirit Scott! Get behind these words and understand why your Christ could pray till he was crying to his father to save him from death!

But Lord, why the tears...you are God (lol) you can save yourself (where have I heard that before!) You dont need to cry Lord, you're saved already!

OSAS in the trash!

F2F

Gods promise is not trash as you claim it is. You make God a liar, by claiming that OSAS is trash. The Lord Jesus Christ said.

John 10:28-30
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

The above verses prove that salvation is not dependent on man persevering to the end. It's the Holy Spirit who keeps them saved, it has noting to do with mans ability to keep himself saved. You have perverted the gospel, to support your false narrative.

Salvation was accomplished by God before He created the world, every single person God elected is already saved. That includes everyone after Adam to the present and those who are yet to be born.
All the sins of Gods elect are paid for in full, so all the past sins, present sins and future sins are fully paid for, so there's no way any of the elect can lose their salvation. To suggest they can is a lie from the pits of hell, it's pure blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

I can list around 120 verses of scripture to confirm that God elected His children to salvation before He created the world. So all of your nonsense about losing one's salvation, is Demonic Doctrine. I hope and pray that God opens your eyes, to enable you to receive the truth.

God promised to send strong delusion to those who reject the truth, your false theology reveals that you have been deceived.

 

[mailmandan]

Probation is the path/Way to salvation - Israel failed in the wilderness - read Hebrews 3 (Christians are warned not to follow their example)

True, its sought through perserverence - read Romans 2:7

Theives will try and find another way however the only way to the Father is through His Son. Many assume to abide in him but live contrary to his commands. The preaching of OSAS deceives people into a false sense of salvation. God is not a debtor! He will show mercy on whom He will show mercy.

F2F

Salvation by grace through faith, not works, (Ephesians 2:8,9) does not equate to probation. Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it.

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer. Their disobedience was a manifestation of their unbelief.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing but DID NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become (past tense with ongoing present results) partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are partakers of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have partaken in Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Once again, holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

Not all of these Hebrews were saved. There were saved and non-saved Hebrews mixed together. Example: In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

In regard to Romans 2:7, patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our hearts. These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. Don't turn perseverance into "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door.

Jesus clearly stated that He is the way, the truth, and the life and that no one comes to the Father except through Him. (John 14:6) Many can assume to abide in Him and claim to be Christians all they want, but that does not necessarily mean they do and are. Jesus never knew these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 who trusted in their works for salvation instead of in Christ alone. There are genuine Christians and there are nominal/pseudo-Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers. Genuine Christians abide. (1 John 4:13-16)

 

[mailmandan]

John 10:28-30
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

In John 10:27-28, we read - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear His voice and some of them don't hear His voice) and I know them, (not some of them He knows and some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow Him and some of them don't follow Him) And I give them eternal life, (not some of them He gives eternal life and some of them He doesn't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will never be snatched out of His hand and some of them will be snatched out of His hand)

In CONTRAST with those do not believe and are not His sheep. (John 10:25-26)

 

[mailmandan]

Another one..

People who have true saving faith, don't just leave

1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[Christian Soldier]

@Christian Soldier

Rather than being angry fellow Christian, we ought to demonstrate this Spirit amongst us.

For this reason deliverance is far from us and salvation does not reach us. We wait for light, but see only darkness; we wait for a bright light, but live in deep darkness. Is 59:9.

This was said out of Israels sin and its this sin which Christ will convince / convict Christianity and the World of at his coming - John 16:8.

The OSAS nonsense must stop and be replaced with fruits/works meet for repentance.

This is enough.

F2F

The problem with all of that is, Gods refutes it by His Word. God said;

Romans 3:10-12 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”

See how God revealed the truth about mans fallen state, there's no way that man (who is born dead in sin) can abide in Christ and persevere in obedience to the end.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

We see those who went out of the Church were never in the Body of Christ to begin with. Just as the Disciples thought that Judas Iscariot was a genuine believer, until he was exposed as a Devil. As far as the Disciples were concerned they had no idea that he was a Devil but God always knew and God created him for that reason, because God causes everything. He is sovereign over all things.

From your point of view, you would have seen Judas join the Church then lose his salvation. But the truth is he was never saved to begin with and neither is anyone else who falls away. SO the true born again believers can never fall away because salvation is in Gods hands and He can't fail to save those He purposed to save before the foundation of the world.

 

[mailmandan]

The problem with all of that is, Gods refutes it by His Word. God said;

Romans 3:10-12 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”

See how God revealed the truth about mans fallen state, there's no way that man (who is born dead in sin) can abide in Christ and persevering obedience to the end.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

We see those who went out of the Church were never in the Body of Christ to begin with. Just as the Disciples thought that Judas Iscariot was a genuine believer, until he was exposed as a Devil. As far as the Disciples were concerned they had no idea that he was a Devil but God always knew and God created him for that reason, because God causes everything. He is sovereign over all things.

From your point of view, you would have seen Judas join the Church then lose his salvation. But the truth is he was never saved to begin with and neither is anyone else who falls away. SO the true born again believers can never fall away because salvation is in Gods hands and He can fail to save those He purposed to save before the foundation of the world.

Amen!

Judas Iscariot was not saved and lost his salvation. Instead, he was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

 

[mailmandan]

Peter in 1 Peter 4 shows us a group who will be judged by God 1 Peter 4:17 and they will barely be saved 1 Peter 4:18!!!, and therefore they should give great attention to avoid being among those who will be condemned. 1 Peter 4:18. Its the later part of Peters teaching which the OSAS believer cannot speak to or consider.

Roman Catholics are also fond of this verse and abuse it to teach salvation by works and/or loss of salvation. There is a justifiable need to "add the ungodly and the sinner" because if the righteous need disciplinary judgments, how much more will the unrighteous deserve the wrath of God whose offer of righteousness through faith they have rejected?

The Greek word "molis" means "hardly" or "scarcely" and reveals the difficulties which believers will experience as they are brought to the end of their faith--the salvation of their souls (1 Peter 1:9) through unjust suffering, persecution, divine purging and discipline. It's not about being saved or remaining saved by barely doing enough works or by barely persevering in faith.

 

[Christian Soldier]

According to this documentary, OSAS originated with the Gnostics, was constantly being refuted by the early church, and was unknown in the Church until the 5th century when Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, a former Gnostic, brought it into the church.

00:01:36 "Believers in OSAS invariably take the high ground historically as though they're defending the historic faith. This is incredibly dishonest. That's because before Augustine's novel teachings in the early 5th century, absolutely no one in the early church believed in once saved always saved. I know of no patristic scholar or church historian who disputes that fact."

00:03:22 "The early church fathers actually warned against the idea of OSAS because that doctrine was not found within any Christian churches at the time; it was found among the Gnostics. ... in their refutations of the Gnostics, they would mention how these Gnostics believed that you could never fall away from the faith..."

Don't be fooled by the craftiness of sinful men. These men in the video are dishonest, they misrepresent what perseverance of the saints means.

There are no verses in the Bible to suggest that born again believers can live double lives. We can't give ourselves to live lives of sin, if we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. There's a big difference between wrestling against the temptation to sin and being overcome, then repenting and continuing the fight. That's not the same as planning to sin and making provisions for sin.

The men in the video deliberately muddy the water by making presumptions about the biblical doctrine of the atonement, which Christ purchased on the c ross and imputed it on those His Father gave Him. Christ said, "it is finished" I believe that means that He paid for all the sins of those He came to save. That includes their past, present and future sins.

Born again believers don't fight against temptation and live sacrificial lives to attain salvation. We do it because we love the Lord so much that we don't want to offend Him, if we love our sin more than we love God then we're not worthy to be called His children. Jesus sent His Holy Spirit to lead us and keep us from being deceived by the enemy.

Salvation is 100% of the Lord, He grants us repentance, faith, a new life, wisdom, perseverance, strength and everything else we need to keep us planted by His living waters, so we can endure to the end. God never said that salvation is dependent on anything we can contribute. He is thew author and finisher of our faith, so no man has anything to boast about.

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, we can not earn salvation. However that's not at all what I'm referring to.

This passage is about people who are already "in Christ"; people who are already saved.


Jesus actually warned His disciples about remaining "in Him".


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

These people were in Christ then removed from Christ by God the Father who Jesus describes as the Vinedresser.

• “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;

Those who remain in Christ will bear much fruit, however the point is to remain "in Christ".


Here is how this same Apostle John instructs us to remain in Christ -

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

Yes

It is not about earning or keeping salvation. Its about producing fruit.

so to use it to say you must abide or you will lose salvation is a false narrative and false gospel.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

One extreme begets another extreme I see. You think of those true believers who "by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: doubt about what it they seek? Romans 2:7 You would be wrong again! Its about humility and meekness that those who know God do not presume upon His Kindness Romans 2:4. The arrogance with which you speak provides enough insight to know you do not know Him or His Son.

F2F

Thats what seperates you and I

In Humility and meekness, I place my eternity in Gods hands

In pride and lack of meekness, your still trying to earn salvation and attacking people who trust in Christ as being evil..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Salvation and fruits come from the same Spirit, do they not?

No

Salvation is being saved from the penalty of sin, or hellfire

Producing fruit is a result of being saved. Some will produce alot of fruit (Gold Silver precious stone) and some will not produce much fruit (wood hay and stubble) And our works will be tried by fire. and we will be rewarded for that work for what type it was.

A non believer who is not saved will not be tried by fire. He will be delivered to Jesus at the great white throne where his eternal destiny will be his reward.. (lake of fire)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@Phoneman777 (your words)

"obedience is the outward evidence of inward conversion is because they lack the outward evidence that proves they've been inwardly converted"

This is interesting as there are 4 different types of conversions in the Scripture:

1. National Conversion (Niniveh and Future Israel are good examples)
2. Temporary Conversion (1 Timothy 2:18 - be interesting to hear what OSAS believers make of these)
3. True Conversion (Saul to Paul in Acts 9)
4. Repeated Conversion (Peter is a great example) Luke 22:23 again how to OSAS believers explain Peter before his denial?

How does the OSAS believer speak to all four? If they believe, once saved always saved?

They must be left behind in the conversation as the work of salvation is so nuanced, it can never be a one size fits all.

F2F

there is no 1 tim 2: 18, the chapter ends at verse 15

luke 23: 23 Then they began to question among themselves, which of them it was who would do this thing.

Did you make a mistake or just trying to make things up?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

For everyone else.

6:7 For the ground that has soaked up the rain that frequently falls on it and yields useful vegetation for those who tend it receives a blessing from God. 6:8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is useless and about to be cursed; its fate is to be burned. Heb 6:7–8.

No person alive can judge who is a blessing from God and who is to be cursed - the fate of each resides with God Himself.

There is no BUT in OSAS!

Imagine Scott at the judgement is shown to have produced thorns and thistles in his life and yet he adamantly believed he was Saved.

What will be his response?

But Lord?

F2F

Actually he was saved. Read the passage, he was NEAR to being cursed.

He will not be at the great white throne, He will be at the bema seat. and most likely have alot of wood hay and straw., meaning he has alot of ashes toi show for his labor.. But he himself will be saved as through Fire.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

John quoted Jesus Christ.


These are His words, not mine --

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


For those who follow Jesus Christ and His teachings, here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ -


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

THIS IS ABOUT PRODUCING FRUIT.

Salvation is not dependent on you producing fruit

You can not sit there and claim your not trying to earn salvation. then in the next breath say you must abide (a work) or you will be cut off and thrown into hell.

Your trying to earn (in this case, not lose) salvation by what you are doing.

I pray you look at your words. and see what I am saying,,

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Is this the premise of you going to the judgement?

No, It is you thinking that you will not be judged because of your works, or how good you are. based on your own righteousness, and not based on Gods righteousness Given to you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

They have ears but they do not hear. Eyes but they do not see.

But mouth a plenty to deny through the anonymous tunnel of the Net and while at a keyboard the Gospel of Christ.

Eternal Irrevocable Salvation is a license to Sin!

Of course it isn't. And God tells us why.

We see this. We know this to be true.

Oh,you're not a Sinner anymore? Do you Sin?

We know God has told us the answer there too. And we know this to be true.

Opponents of God. God's grace, God's gift. The Gospel of Eternal Life,Irrevocable Salvation.

Opponents.Opposers.
2 Corinthians 4:4
...In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Pride will not allow them to see. they will continue like the pharisees Judging the gentiles (us) because we so called love our sin, and hate God..