Once Saved, Always Saved?
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
Let's address this first, as it seems to be getting in the way of our communication. (I will get to the rest of your post afterward).
You have this wrong. What you describe as "cryptic remarks" vs. "clear explanation"...is just not the biblical model. I hear you--but really, would it have been right for Nicodemus to respond to Jesus' comments on being born again as you have just responded to me? No, but what is rather the case, is that you either come around by the Spirit, or leave following the "hard sayings" because you are not ready to hear them--which does not change the truth of what God brings by those who are sent. And I also understand that there are things that people say that discernment should limit one from receiving--but that does not either change the truth if one is not ready to hear it.
So, where I am inclined to apologize for my own shortcomings, I do not apologize for what the Spirit brings forth, or how. But I would suggest that you reason within yourself, that hard would-be cryptic sayings are not the problem, but are actually common in scripture.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
I will take these one at a time--but why have you not at all heard and acknowledged the truth that these things were preached to those on the cusp of the greatest change in world history regarding salvation--that there are those who fall on one side and also those who fall on the other side: those under the old covenant, and those under the new covenant? As a result, most of these are is issues of incorrect context. You start right in quoting Paul, but have not "rightly divided the word of truth" according to his counsel.
No--wrong context. Not "we" but those under the law, can "fall from grace."
This was addressing those who had only "heard", but had not yet received the gospel, and therefore were not yet saved.
I would suggest that Paul was speaking hypothetically [being all things to all people] not because he was actually "all things"--not because he himself was saved and could actually loose his salvation, but only as an example for personal appeal. On the other hand--it would be an assumption to say that Paul at different times did not even question the terms of his own salvation--I mean, these things were all completely new. Certainly, us looking back at all that Paul said, his salvation is not a question to us now, but then--at that time, he was walking the line between the old covenant and the new--completely qualified to speak to both...and no doubt he did. But who is to say on which side God eventually placed him. God knows. But we should not assume that because Paul addressed both, that both terms of the old and new covenants apply to both those before and those after.
Here Paul is comparing those who might be grafted in with the natural branches--which to be at all comparable, would place them where the natural branches were, which was before salvation had come. Out of context...and does not apply.
This is already disqualified as out of context, just as Galatians 5:4 above. Nonetheless, it confirms Galatians 5:4 is also out of context, because he speaks to them as being alive in the flesh rather than dead...while the saved are not alive to the flesh, but alive to the Spirit having already fully sown to the spirit in death of self, wherein it is no longer they who live, but Christ who lives in them.
Out of context. If someone proves to be unsaved, they are (unsaved). But the confusion here, is that men do not judge by the same measure as God--which is not on the one being judged, but on the one judging his brother. To the contrary, if our judgement is Godly, and not out of human piety, we can know what is in the heart...but not from looking on, as the hypocrites do.
Out of context. This speaks only of those who have "rejected" the faith before ever having received it--they were never saved.
Out of context. This is not even about salvation, but about common decency and responsibility.
This is only about those who " have strayed from the faith" not having fully received it. They are not saved, but have returned to the beggarly elements after hearing the good news and rejecting it, which is evident by their actions.
The point here, is they never had the truth--meaning they were not actually saved.
10 out of 10...all out of context. Not applicable to those who are saved, but rather only to those who are not saved.
This, to me is the firm assurance we have, the testimony of the Holy Spirit
2Co_1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
No sealing of the Spirit, no regeneration, and once sealed that cannot be unsealed..this is my conviction and assurance I have.
God bless
J.
Here is the witness
Rom_8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Without this witness, without the sealing, we are none of Christ.
Amen
J.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
The scriptures give us the measuring rod of godly character and the behavior it produces. No opinions required.
As far as having a good temperament, I find it incredible that so many Christians think that unsaved people can do by nature what Jesus himself said can not be done without him - John 15:4, and so they discard fruit bearing as a sign that one is abiding in Christ in salvation.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Jesus can speak cryptically because Jesus is GOD. God knows all things. Nowhere does our Lord Jesus or His followers tell us to speak cryptically to others (So as to hide truth). We are told to follow Jesus, but there are limitations in our imitation of our Lord. We obviously cannot have people bow down and worship us because Jesus is GOD. So this is one aspect we cannot follow Jesus or mimic Him on.
The only instance of where we as believers are to hide God’s precious truths on is mentioned by our Lord Jesus is found in Matthew 7:6.
For Jesus said,
“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.” (Matthew 7:6).
The obvious meaning to this verse is that we are not to give precious truths in God’s Word to unbelieving Gentiles, otherwise, they will just trample such truths under their feet and try to tear you apart over it. So this does not apply to Christians who are supposed to regard the Bible as their sole authority for all matters of faith and practice.
God knows.What else will matter on Judgement Day? ....Self- Righteous “ Fruit Inspectors” are clueless as to how much a man may have been Transformed on the inside... As God does His Miraculous Work on “ the inside of the cup” it can take time before the changes are manifest on the “ outside of the cup”..... it’s All God’s Doing and All Of God’s Timing.....until you and others can see the Internal changes ( the ones that matter ) you may want to consider holding back your over- eager desire to Judge .
I can remember the First Change that occurred in my life after I was Saved—— I almost Immediately started worrying if my friends and family were Saved.....a concern that was non- existent before God did this work inside of me and changed me.....Any “ Fruit Inspectors” looking for change or Works in my life were completely blind to that change.....and that is only “ one” example....self - righteous “Spiritual Jack - Asses” ought to be a lot more humble as they do what they were ordered NOT to do—— judge others.....you guys aren’t smart enough to Judge anything that matters to God, namely kindness , mercy and an eagerness to forgive —- things a helluva lot more important to God Then perhaps sniffing out that cigarette or cleaning up your language...
Lol.....are you Naive enough to believe that there are not millions of mere “ Religionists” out there That know how to “ play church” decade after decade.....they know EXACTLY how to ACT like Christians having Never been “ Born Again”......” How we live” can not be a certain sign of being saved..... I know countless people that know how to “ LIVE” like a Christian....
It’s easy to do for an hour or two on a Sunday at the Religious Country Club that many phonies frequent....
That “ Mouth” aspect that you denigrate may not be up to “YOUR” made-up Standard But it seems to satisfy God and “ His” Requirement to get Saved....see if “this” rings a bell——“ and with the *MOUTH* Confession is made UNTO SALVATION ....
Best notify God ASAP —— Ferris has chosen to over- ride God’s Plan and declare that what a man says with his mouth means nothing.....
Fake Believers “ ACT” like Believers—- THAT is what makes them Fake....
I hope you suggest the following.....it “IS” Biblical after all......”I have written these things to you who Believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may * KNOW*
that you have EternalLife
1JOHN 5:13.....
I’ll check back later to see if you get it right....
V-RSA-2P (BSB Morphology)
Verb - Perfect Subjunctive Active - 2nd Person Plural
Lemma: εἴδω
Word: you may know
Greek: εἰδῆτε
Transliteration: eidēte
G1492 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G1492 εἴδω eido (ei'-d̮ō) v.
1. (properly) to see (but not limited to the eye).
2. (by implication, in the perfect tense only) to personally know (i.e. to have seen or have experienced something by firsthand observation).
To have an intimate relationship with another person. An idea or an experience. [AHLB: 1085-L (V)]
יָדַע yada` (yaw-dah') v.
1. (properly) to ascertain by seeing.
2. (generally) to know.
3. (used widely) to observe, care, recognize, etc.
I don't want to flood this thread with scriptures but this I ask...Do we have a witness?
Just rambling here..
Rom_8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
How does the Holy Spirit witness with our spirit?
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Lemma: συμμαρτυρέω
Word: συμμαρτυρεῖ
Transliteration: symmartyrei
English: bears witness with
G4828 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G4828 συμμαρτυρέω summartureo (sïm-mar-tï-re'-ō) v.
to testify jointly, i.e. corroborate by (concurrent) evidence.
Rom_9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,....
How is it possible to live a life of carnality when we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us and we in Christ?
..just rambling, thinking out loud..
Looking for biblical sources or links that would help me to dig deeper into the Scriptures.
Thanks in advance.
J.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Only those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation will be saved. Salvation is conditional on faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Placing your faith in "water and works" for salvation is not placing your faith in Jesus.
Straw man argument. Those who are in Christ are new creations; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17) Going back to serve satan is not the desire of those who are truly born of God. Children of God practice righteousness and love their brother, but not children of the devil. (1 John 3:10) God's saints are preserved forever. For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. (Psalm 37:28) Believers are sealed in Christ until the day of redemption. Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. God finishes what He starts. Philippians 1:6 - being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.
I certainly do have a say in the matter and I choose to serve Jesus Christ. :)
Choosing to serve Christ is not forced or legalistic for those who are truly born of God.
Here you go again with the labels.
You couldn't pin the label "Baptist" on me, so now you are trying to label me a Calvinist, but I am not a 5 point Calvinist, so once again you are unsuccessful.Another straw man argument.
Who is being addressed here? Start reading in verse 37. CONTEXT.
Like who? Judas Iscariot who was never saved, but instead was a devil. (John 6:64-71) Nope!
Of course we do, but that does not mean that genuine believers will exercise their free will to permanently reject Christ.
I thought irresistible grace had more to do with grace being irresistible to those who God fatalistically decides to save. Salvation is offered by the grace of God, but is dependent on our faith. If grace was completely irresistible then everyone would be saved.
John 15:4-6 "on the surface" only appears to teach that. In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches (cosmic connection) that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.
Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.
John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.
The moment that he placed His faith in Christ for salvation. Was Jesus lying in John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26? Works-salvationists reject this truth.
John 20:31 - but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
Is Peter in heaven now or in hell?
CONTINUED...
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
In regards to Hebrews 3:12, in verse 14, we read - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."
The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from may God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.
In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. Notice that verses 2-3 make a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.
Amen! Unbelievers are condemned already.
Peter had a weak moment, but he did not completely lose his faith in Jesus. Again I ask, is Peter in heaven or hell now?
Temporary weak moments do not equal permanently lost faith. Are the remaining 11 disciples in heaven or hell now? In Matthew 26:31-32, Jesus told the disciples, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me.." But it wasn't permanent. Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.
Who was Paul addressing here? CONTEXT.
Show me just one verse in the Bible that unequivocally says a really "saved" person has "lose their salvation."
Once again, if grace was completely irresistible then everyone would be saved. I don't believe that it's completely irresistible or that God fatalistically determines who will and won't be saved, so apparently, I'm not a Calvinist.
I prefer "preservation of the saints" (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) and every false religion and cult that teaches salvation by works would absolutely agree with you here. Am I the only one who see's a red flag?
Those who claimed to have once had faith, but later walk away from the Christian faith demonstrate that their faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start and they were not genuine Christians. We see this in 1 John 2:19. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together throughout the book of Hebrews. One example (Hebrews 4:1-2).
Only those who truly are born of God remain faithful as a demonstration they are in God's grace. You turn this into "type 2 works salvation" -- pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and keep yourself saved through your own strength.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Bible Highlighter said:
First, you cannot fall away from something you never had.
For example: Rick cannot fall away from off a cliff if he was never on the cliff.
Bob cannot fall away from the faith if he never had the faith to begin with.
Stephen’s old friends cannot fall away from him if he never was friends with them in the first place.
Just type into Google sentence examples for “fall away” and you will see more of these kinds of examples.
Second, back in Galatians chapter 2: Paul asks the Galatian believers: Have you BEGUN in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh?
“Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” (Galatians 3:3).
This is saying that they started off in the Spirit (God’s grace, and His good ways with the Spirit) and now Paul is asking them if they are perfect by the fleshy action of circumcision.
For the Galatian believers were thinking they had to be circumcised in order to be saved because of the Jews who spied out their liberty in Christ Jesus so as to bring them into bondage.
Galatians 2:3-4 says,
“But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:”
For Paul says,
“if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:2).
Obviously Circumcision is not a problem if one is not doing it for salvation (For Paul circumcised Timothy so that he could move about within the Jewish region - See Acts of the Apostles 16:3). The issue is that there were Jews who were trying to deceive Christians into thinking they had to be circumcised in order to be saved. This heresy was addressed at the Jerusalem council.
Acts of the Apostles 15:1
“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
(See also Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24).
Believers under the New Covenant are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. Christians do not have to be circumcised, keep the Saturday Sabbath, holy days, and or dietary laws so as to be saved (See: Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 14:5, Romans 14:14).
Anyways, getting back to Galatians 3. Paul asks the Galatian believes in his letter to them:
Galatians 3:1-2
“O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
So again we see here that Paul confirms they have been bewitched and he asks if they received the Spirit by the works of the Law (like circumcision), or the hearing of faith. This establishes Paul statement if you seek to be justified by the Law you have fallen from grace in Galatians 5:4. Paul was talking about them being circumcised to be saved (Galatians 5:2) (Galatians 2:3). So no. Your not reading things in context. My guess is you had no idea about this kind of thing in the text. You are just inserting what you want to be true into the Bible.
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The opinion required is yours, and how well you think you fit your understanding of Godly fruit.
Don't get me wrong! If you are born again, you will grow, and yield fruit. However, I think there are those who see the good results of their own personal reformation, tapping into a good disposition, using some will power, and calling that "proof of salvation".
And I think that seeing yourself becoming more Christlike is a wonderful thing. Yet it's still your own opinion of yourself based on your own perceptions of yourself.
No, you will not produce spiritual fruit outside of Christ, however, you can make yourself a nicer person and call that spiritual fruit if you don't know better, or want to think it so.
Personally I think the Bible tells us to believe His Word, that faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God, and our belief is our reliance on His Word, His Truth, on Jesus Himself.
I don't think I'm saved because I approve more of myself then I did before. I think I'm saved because I'm relying on Jesus, who is unto me sanctification. Not what I see, but what I believe. What I rely on.
Much love!
I love words,it is our conveyance for communication. The spoken word face to face is the better way to communicate. Written word, if in a conversation leave the viewer with all the suppositions of the mood, the tone, and any infliction of importance.
So many of you are just arguing as if bored!
The WOG has made the point clear on SALVATION, FAITH, RECEIVERS, EXPECTATIONS, APPLICATION AND JOURNEY.
Most here seem to be of the male persuasion, what can't win an argument with the spouse....lol, so I'll take my ineffectual words and bid you ALL .........God speed!
So many of you are just arguing as if bored!
The WOG has made the point clear on SALVATION, FAITH, RECEIVERS, EXPECTATIONS, APPLICATION AND JOURNEY.
Most here seem to be of the male persuasion, what can't win an argument with the spouse....lol, so I'll take my ineffectual words and bid you ALL .........God speed!
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
I’m not so sure:
“Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness” (2 Corinthians 13:10)
Paul rather use stern speech in writing so that the face to face would be a more pleasant experience.
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