Once Saved, Always Saved?

[marks]

I do have that witness. But people in cults claim to have that same witness, too. But, Biblically, the witness of the Spirit includes seeing what the Spirit is doing in you in bringing you to obedience to God:

"24Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him. And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us." 1 John 3:24​

And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us.

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am not going to argue or defend what the scriptures clearing say to the contrary and not at all what you are now saying. Jesus is not the only one who seemingly spoke in riddles--it is all throughout the scriptures--every prophet did similarly. But your statement about Jesus is wrong anyway...just as Paul said, "for me to live, is Christ"; and it is not we who are His who speak the things of God, but He who speaks through us. Matthew 10:20

What you are missing here...is that because the words from God do in fact come from Him in this would-be cryptic manner--this is not how the word from God is hidden, but how it is revealed. I suggest therefore, that there is indeed a "renewing" of our minds needed in order for us to receive the truth in the way He has appointed it.

Again, lets try to stay on point. I suggested to you that believers should not speak cryptically (in the way you did) unless they are dealing scoffers of Jesus and the Bible. We are not to cast our pearls (deep truths of God that we value) before swine. They will not appreciate it but they will try to use it against you. While I believe we can speak in a parables with other believers at certain times (like Paul did in 1 Corinthians 3), I don’t believe this should be the normative way or primary we should communicate with each other.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You must have been addressing this while I was answering it in another post, here: Once Saved, Always Saved?

Anyway...what Paul wrote can and is often misunderstood, but by definition it is impossible to conclude that he meant to say that one who is born of God can be unborn.

Yes, and your statement is your own. But your thoughts are not on the same level as Scripture. I provided irrefutable proof in the Bible that your added commentary to Colossians 1:23 is non-existent within the framework of the chapter.

While a person cannot be unborn, they can die, and come back to life.
In real life: People have died and remained dead for many minutes, and they came back to life.

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32): Was the prodigal son saved while he was living it up with prostitutes? No. How do we know? Well, when the prodigal son came home to his father, his father said he was “dead” and “alive AGAIN” two times within the parable. His father also said that he was “lost” and now he is “found”, too. Generally when we speak of the lost in the Bible, it is referring to those who are not saved. So the prodigal son was dead spiritually while he was living it up with prostitutes, and he became alive AGAIN spiritually when he came back home to his father and sought forgiveness with him. This same truth is expressed in James 5:19-20, as well.

 

[ScottA]

Again, lets try to stay on point. I suggested to you that believers cannot speak cryptically or to not speak at all unless they are dealing with scoffers. We are not to cast our pearls (deep truths of God that we value) before swine. They will not appreciate it but they will try to use it against you. While I believe we can speak in a parables with other believers at certain times (like Paul did in 1 Corinthians 3), I don’t believe this should be the normative way or primary we should communicate with each other.

What you believe then...is against the scriptures, which I have given. I have also given you the biblical reason that such language and messages are not received.

Thus, it is not for me to comply with you, but for you to comply with the biblical standard. But hey, I am not above explaining what I have said, anytime--that too is biblical. But don't be surprised (but consider it confirmation) if I answer with something like, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

 

[ScottA]

Yes, and your statement is your own. But your thoughts are not on the same level as Scripture. I provided irrefutable proof in the Bible that your added commentary to Colossians 1:23 is non-existent within the framework of the chapter.

No--you did not...and I have already told you why--with scripture. Which is because the verse is about "faith" which may or may not lead to salvation--and is not about salvation or loosing salvation. None of which is my "own."

While a person cannot be unborn, they can die, and come back to life.
In real life: People have died and remained dead for many minutes, and they came back to life.

So?

That, however, was not the point. The point is that if one is born of God--God is eternal, forever, without beginning or end, and does not, and cannot die. Such a one, therefore cannot loose salvation...and to say so, is to say that God is not forever. And if you need a verse for that--you need to read them all.

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32): Was the prodigal son saved while he was living it up with prostitutes? No. How do we know? Well, when the prodigal son came home to his father, his father said he was “dead” and “alive AGAIN” two times within the parable. His father also said that he was “lost” and now he is “found”, too. Generally when we speak of the lost in the Bible, it is referring to those who are not saved. So the prodigal son was dead spiritually while he was living it up with prostitutes, and he became alive AGAIN spiritually when he came back home to his father and sought forgiveness with him. This same truth is expressed in James 5:19-20, as well.

You have assumed too much. Jesus, in the parable of the prodigal son, did not go on to say what you now say--He did not continue the parable to say, "the son who was dead and alive again, then returned and died and was lost again."

That's just you assuming what is not even there.

 

[ScottA]

@Bible Highlighter

Look...I know that I have been speaking against a lot of what you have perhaps always believed, and to change your mind would be the death of that belief--but that is exactly what we are talking about. The topic here is not about one's beliefs being confirmed if they are right or wrong--it's about coming to "know" the truth rather than taking up residence in what one merely "believes." That is not salvation--and that is the problem we are having. Such a position does not give you a leg to stand on. What is true is true regardless of what one believes, even if everyone for millennia would agree (even quoting scripture). To the contrary--we have been told that delusion would be the reality of these times.

I am just telling you that the delusion prophecy is true.

But you don't have to continue in it. That is the definition of "dying to self." Lay it down, or die fighting. Those are our choices.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).

I would suggest that Paul was speaking hypothetically [being all things to all people] not because he was actually "all things"--not because he himself was saved and could actually loose his salvation, but only as an example for personal appeal. On the other hand--it would be an assumption to say that Paul at different times did not even question the terms of his own salvation--I mean, these things were all completely new. Certainly, us looking back at all that Paul said, his salvation is not a question to us now, but then--at that time, he was walking the line between the old covenant and the new--completely qualified to speak to both...and no doubt he did. But who is to say on which side God eventually placed him. God knows. But we should not assume that because Paul addressed both, that both terms of the old and new covenants apply to both those before and those after.

1 Corinthians 9:27 says:
“But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”

First, here are some verses that say a similar thing.

Romans 8:13
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”

James 1:12
“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.”

James 1:21
“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.”

2 Corinthians 7:1
“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

Second, in context, 1 Corinthians 10 says,

1 Corinthians 10:1-12
1 “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”

Paul says we are not to have fellowship with any brother who is a fornicator, covetous, an idolater, drunkard, etcetera.

1 Corinthians 5:9-11
“I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.”

So no believer could ever have fellowship with each other if OSAS was true.
The idea here is that if a believer was in sin, they would be cast out with the world until they confessed of their sins and forsaken them.

So your excuse to undo what Paul said in that he is speaking hypothetically is null and void, friend. 1 Corinthians 9:27 means what it says plainly. Paul says he can be a cast away and he literally means that. You simply do not like what he said, and so you are attempting to come up with an excuse to explain his words away (Which runs contrary to the context and the rest of the Bible).

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us.

Much love!

Read it. It's what the Holy Spirit is doing in you that signifies he is abiding in you. The inner witness, alone, is not Biblical. As I said, cultists claim to have the witness of the Spirit. But what is evident in the cults is the lack of the witness of the abiding Spirit in what they do. Again, this is another case of not considering the whole counsel of scripture. Confirmation that you are really called and elected to salvation includes the witness of the Spirit in what you do, not just in what you feel. This Biblical truth has been lost to the church at this present time.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Bible Highlighter

Look...I know that I have been speaking against a lot of what you have perhaps always believed, and to change your mind would be the death of that belief--but that is exactly what we are talking about. The topic here is not about one's beliefs being confirmed if they are right or wrong--it's about coming to "know" the truth rather than taking up residence in what one merely "believes." That is not salvation--and that is the problem we are having. Such a position does not give you a leg to stand on. What is true is true regardless of what one believes, even if everyone for millennia would agree (even quoting scripture). To the contrary--we have been told that delusion would be the reality of these times.

I am just telling you that the delusion prophecy is true.

But you don't have to continue in it. That is the definition of "dying to self." Lay it down, or die fighting. Those are our choices.

I am actually providing context of real verses from the Bible. You are just adding your own opinion upon the text, friend. So you have not refuted the verses I put forth to you using the Bible to prove OSAS.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Lol.....are you Naive enough to believe that there are not millions of mere “ Religionists” out there That know how to “ play church” decade after decade.

'Playing church' is not what shows you are a new creation in Christ. Most Christians in the church do not know what it means to be a godly person, and so they think any unsaved person can act like a Christian. But if they knew what it looks like to be a changed person in the Holy Spirit they'd understand why Jesus said it can only be done by abiding in Christ (John 15:4). IOW, only saved people can bear the fruit of the Spirit. This ignorance of what the Bible says is the behavior that signifies the indwelling Spirit has caused so many in the church to discard Jesus' words as untrue and make them believe that an unbeliever can act like a saved person.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Self- Righteous “ Fruit Inspectors” are clueless as to how much a man may have been Transformed on the inside.

If you are changed on the inside you'll be changed on the outside:

"First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean." Matthew 23:26
​

You like to use this verse to justify not being changed on the outside because one is really changed on the inside. But as we can see the verse is actually saying if you are changed on the inside you will be changed on the outside. Dirty on the outside means dirty on the inside.

And as for this 'self-righteous fruit inspector' that you like to use to deflect examination of your life. This isn't about others confirming your calling and election, though the Bible clearly says we can do that. This is about you yourself making your own calling and election sure. Our discussion has nothing to do with others judging you as saved or unsaved. We are to look in the mirror. A dirty, unchanging cup means you're still the same 'ol unchanged 'you' on the inside (see the verse above). You're not born again. You just think you are. And probably because some misguided pastor or teacher told you it doesn't matter what's on the outside.

And just so there is no misunderstanding or undue condemnation on genuine Christians, this is not about the sincere Christian struggling with a besetting sin in a 'seventy times seven' relationship with the Lord. This is about people who say they are a Christian but who remain in their love affair with the world and the flesh and have no struggle with the flesh and willingly give into it just as easily and willingly as they did before they thought they were born again. The thing that chaffs them is righteousness. They love unrighteousness. For the genuine new creation in Christ the thing that chaffs them is unrighteousness.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

As God does His Miraculous Work on “ the inside of the cup” it can take time before the changes are manifest on the “ outside of the cup”..... it’s All God’s Doing and All Of God’s Timing.

Of course growth in Christ is a process. What we're talking about here there is no progress. If you're still the same ol' you, then you are still the same ol' you. You are not a new creation in Christ. It's that simple.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).

Here Paul is comparing those who might be grafted in with the natural branches--which to be at all comparable, would place them where the natural branches were, which was before salvation had come. Out of context...and does not apply.

Odd how you did not supply any context here (actual real verses) that supports your opinion here, friend.

Who is Paul talking to in verses 17-22?

Please take notice the following points from Romans 11:17-22.

Verse 17: thou (you).
Verse 18: thou (you).
Verse 19: Thou (You).
Verse 19: (Paul tells the reader): Boast not against the branches.
Verse 20: thou (you) stand by faith.
Verse 21: (Paul tells the reader): Take heed (in that God spared not the natural branches), otherwise he will not spare you.
Verse 22: (Paul tells the reader): Behold (Take notice) on the goodness AND severity of God, but toward thee (you) goodness (kindness).
Verse 22: IF thou (you) continue in his goodness, otherwise…
Verse 22: thou (you) also shall be cut off.

Romans 11:17-22
17 “And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.”

You stated that this passage is before salvation had come or those who MIGHT be grafted into the natural branches that were broken off. But if you were to read the whole chapter or this passage, it does not suggest anything of the sort. That’s simply your odd addition to the text.

Paul says to the Roman Christians by letter (verse 17), thou (you) being a wild Olive tree, wert (were) graffed (grafted) in among them. Paul does not say (in verse 17) and those who were before salvation have the potential to one day possibly be grated in among them. This is why your reading or addition to the text is wrong, friend. Your adding to the Bible something that is clearly not there.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

and with the *MOUTH* Confession is made UNTO SALVATION .

And if all you have after making a confession of Christ is your confession, then you don't have the salvation you think you received when you confessed Christ. You are not born again.

You're ignoring the whole counsel of scripture about this matter:

"9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1 John 3:9
​

You're just so sure John is wrong.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Fake Believers “ ACT” like Believers—- THAT is what makes them Fake.

But fake believers CAN'T act like believers. That's how we know they're unbelievers!

"16By their fruit you will recognize them." Matthew 7:16
​

But you are sure Jesus is very wrong about this.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Ferris has chosen to over- ride God’s Plan and declare that what a man says with his mouth means nothing.

What Ferris declares is that if what a man says with his mouth doesn't result in him becoming a new creation in Christ what he says means nothing.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I hope you suggest the following.....it “IS” Biblical after all......”I have written these things to you who Believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may * KNOW*
that you have EternalLife
1JOHN 5:13.....

I’ll check back later to see if you get it right....

Wonderful! You've quoted from 1 John. You seem oblivious to the fact that what John wrote so that we know we have eternal life is we know it by how we live:

7The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.
8The one who practices sin is of the devil...
10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10​

He wrote that so that you who believe in the name of the Son of God may know you have eternal life. You know it by how you live. But you seem bound and determined to believe that John was wrong and that how you live does not mean anything toward showing you to be of God or of the devil, just as long as you say with your mouth you believe.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).

This is already disqualified as out of context, just as Galatians 5:4 above. Nonetheless, it confirms Galatians 5:4 is also out of context, because he speaks to them as being alive in the flesh rather than dead...while the saved are not alive to the flesh, but alive to the Spirit having already fully sown to the spirit in death of self, wherein it is no longer they who live, but Christ who lives in them.

There is no context of Paul referring to saved believers, and unsaved fake believers (who are under the Law) among the church of Galatia. While this certainly may be a possibility, we see Paul simply writing to (or addressing) the entire church.

Verse 1: Brethren (Brothers).
Verse 1: ye (you-all)
Verse 2: (Paul tells the reader): Bear ye (you-all) one another’s burdens.
Verse 7: (Paul tells the reader): Be not deceived.

Galatians 6:1-8
1 “Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.”

Also, the word “he” is used here in verse 8 so as to refer to anyone or any person.

In verse 8: It says the person who sows to the flesh (sin) shall reap corruption.
OSAS Proponents have told me that 1 John 1:8 is a statement that means they will always be in some kind of sin this side of Heaven (When the Bible does not say that). So if they believe they will always sin, when the Bible says they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24), then they are justifying sin and sowing to the flesh and will reap corruption. This is why we are to instead to sow to the Spirit and reap everlasting life (Which is a better alternative).

Galatians 6:18 says: “Unto the Galatians written from Rome.”

Also, Paul does not speak in a way that the saved brethren are incapable of falling away, either.

Galatians 6:1
“Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.”

Paul is saying to the brethren (in general) that if a man (believer) be overtaken in a fault, you-all who are spiritual restore such a person in the spirit of kindness or gentleness. Consider this for yourself, otherwise you also may be tempted. Meaning the reader can be tempted and overtaken in a fault, too. Meaning, they are not forced against their will to be with GOD and His good ways.

 

[ScottA]

1 Corinthians 9:27 says:
“But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”

First, here are some verses that say a similar thing.

Romans 8:13
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”

James 1:12
“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.”

James 1:21
“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.”

2 Corinthians 7:1
“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

Second, in context, 1 Corinthians 10 says,

1 Corinthians 10:1-12
1 “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”

Paul says we are not to have fellowship with any brother who is a fornicator, covetous, an idolater, drunkard, etcetera.

1 Corinthians 5:9-11
“I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.”

So no believer could ever have fellowship with each other if OSAS was true.
The idea here is that if a believer was in sin, they would be cast out with the world until they confessed of their sins and forsaken them.

So your excuse to undo what Paul said in that he is speaking hypothetically is null and void, friend. 1 Corinthians 9:27 means what it says plainly. Paul says he can be a cast away and he literally means that. You simply do not like what he said, and so you are attempting to come up with an excuse to explain his words away (Which runs contrary to the context and the rest of the Bible).

You are not reconciling those things with all that Paul wrote, nor are you acknowledging that he was speaking to some who were of the old covenant and some of the new. Until you do (rightly divide the word of truth as he said), you have no business preaching anything he preached, or even interpreting it. Which I am not going to keep saying much longer.

 

[ScottA]

I am actually providing context of real verses from the Bible. You are just adding your own opinion upon the text, friend. So you have not refuted the verses I put forth to you using the Bible to prove OSAS.

I am not speaking opinion--I am not speaking at all.

But I am telling you, that your context and quoting of bible verses are the same as the delusion that has been believed for millennia, just as prophesied for these times.