Once Saved, Always Saved?
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Taken
Well-Known Member
Unlike you I don’t find it insulting to suggest Scripture Befitting the Reader.
I am not ashamed or insulted, having had used a toddler Bible, a teen geared student Bible and an adult Bible... It was also a very useful method for beginner teen + Deaf kids new to Scripture.
While I have no knowledge if you can audibly Hear, you do tend to project yourself as Deaf to what people are saying.
IF you have the wisdom of an adult, look, read, learn what a Covenant is and you should be able recognize WHEN a Covenant is being spoken of IN Scripture, without the toddler reminder....of repeatedly reading...
Covenant, covenant, covenant.....
Very old News. And TRUE, the condition was “IF” you obey His Commands. Perhaps you did not notice, THEY who received the Commands, broadly Failed to keep in Obedience. OOPS.
Maybe you also did not notice...When God Sent Jesus to Earth...
Jesus’ Service was to Fulfill Gods Commands to Obey their Law, and Relieve the People, Given the Commands, From the negative consequences of having Failed to Obey.
Ding, Ding....the negative consequences? Failing to fulfill the ‘IF”.
Ding, Ding....the negative consequences? God would NOT be their God.
So there ya Go, Gods People ISRAEL, given a golden opportunity, to get on track with God....and WHOOPIE...The same opportunity, EXTENDED to the Gentiles!
As I said, you project yourself as Deaf to what people SAY.
I have on more than one occasion explicitly stated my fulfillment according to Gods Order and Way.
You being utterly deaf or ignorant of that fact, AND accusing and intimating a theft occurred, is a burden accounted to you in Gods accounting!
Taken
Well-Known Member
Agree in part.
Obedience IS the man hearing, agreeing, submitting, etc.
People seem to think Once they become Saved, THEN they have to obey...
Disagree God Saves a man, and then somehow God did not know the man would thereafter Reject Him.
Glory to God,
Taken
Yep.
Yes, but it's a misunderstanding of epic proportions to see that as God breaking, or not keeping, or breaching His promise. But sort of understandable, because the antiquated language of the KJV makes it difficult in some places for people living many centuries later. It's not wrong, and it's not heretical, it just presents difficulties here and there.
Nope. The ESV and NASB are my preferred translations, and they say precisely the same thing as the KJV. They don't, however, use precisely the wording in places, but that in and of itself is not an issue.
[shakes head back]
Grace and peace to you.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
No it isn’t.
The people were rebellious. They caused the breach of promise. This translation just destroys Once Saved Always Saved that’s all!
So there must be some other way to translate this verse so you can keep your lie!
Puhleeese!!!
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Dude your a joke
i already refuted it, but you can’t hear a word anyone says, you think your a know it all
good luck my friend, I am done playing kids games. I will go find someone who can have a decent conversation and has some humility,
I also don't believe God does not know what all men will do. He let's us do "our thing". He will save anyone who desires to be saved. Even if He knows later they will turn against Him.
Remember king Saul?
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It’s the #1 Sin.....the sin that caused Satan to fall and take a Third Of Heaven with him...Pride.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
More confusion on your part that culminates in salvation by faith "and works." In Jude the words "the faith" (Greek tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines, which would include the gospel of Jesus Christ and what did the apostle Paul say about the gospel of Christ in Romans 1:16? It is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) To trust in works for salvation is a "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
Yet you use faithfulness to support salvation by works. You just said below that faithfulness is obedience to God and multiple acts of obedience to God are works. Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. The writer of Hebrews did not say faith is works. Faithfulness is a word that focuses inside the self, but faith is a word that focuses outside the self, upon an object that is being believed or trusted in. Faithfulness has to do with how reliable or trustworthy we are. Faith has to do with how reliable and trustworthy the object is that we are believing in. Faith leads to faithfulness which is a fruit of the Spirit. (Galatians 5:22) This is an important distinction to maintain in Christianity. We are not saved through our faithful acts of obedience/works but through faith in Jesus Christ. If we were saved through faithful acts of obedience, then how many faithful acts of obedience would it take? How many of us would measure up? God's standard is perfection.
Faith primarily means "assurance" or "conviction", as we see in Hebrews 11:1, though secondarily it can sometimes be translated as "faithfulness" depending on the context.
NAS Word Usage - Total: 243
faith 238, faithfulness 3,
There is another Greek word which primarily means "faithfulness" and "obedience" is "works." Faith is belief, trust, confidence. In English there is a difference between "faith" and "faithfulness". Changing our understanding from "faith" to "faithfulness" affects the meaning of the gospel. To say that we are saved through our own personal faithfulness is different than to say that we are saved through faith in Christ. The former makes it a self-focused salvation that is about our own reliability and work, while the latter is a God-focused salvation that is about looking away from ourselves and trusting in Christ's reliability and work.
Speaking of belief/faith in regards to mental assent, people who attend the churches of Christ often fail to understand that there is a deeper, more substantive aspect of belief/faith which is believing in Jesus Christ for eternal life, and most cannot distinguish between mere intellectual belief or assent from a personal faith that is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. They will cite that "even the devils believe" (from James 2:19) in their sermons and will contend that even the "faith of devils" is the same as any other faith "except" that the faith of devils lacks any moral or religious good works. They cannot grasp this deeper faith that trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation. This explains why people such as you have so much faith in "water and works."
Saving faith properly defined is belief, trust, confidence or reliance in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Obedience which "follows" saving faith in Christ is works and we are not saved by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)
It's not about belief in baptism, but belief in Christ for salvation. It's not obedience to commands (works) which "follow" saving faith in Christ that saves. It's faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone for salvation that saves. It's 100% faith in Christ and 0% faith in works.
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."
If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to salvation through faith in Christ. This does not remove good works/acts of obedience (including water baptism) from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to salvation.
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
True Biblical faith results in obedience. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. Faith doesn't produce obedience in order to become true Biblical faith but BECAUSE it is true Biblical faith.
No contradiction on my part at all. You just don't understand and neither did I prior to my conversion several years ago. True faith is evidenced by works and not established by works. Big difference! No cart before the horse. Faith that produces no works at all demonstrates that it's a dead faith. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of true Biblical faith, but not the essence of faith and also not the means or basis by which we obtain salvation.
James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims (key word) they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple! Why is that so hard for you to understand? Actually, I know why.
Faith that produces no works at all is a dead faith. I am in agreement with James and James is not teaching salvation by works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. So simple!
No I am not. I am teaching that we are saved by a living faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and genuine faith results in producing works, yet we are saved through faith and not by works. We are actually saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)
Genuine faith results in producing works. That still does not mean that we are saved by both faith and works or that faith is works as you teach.
My doctrine does not contradict itself. You just don't understand and there is a reason for that.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
I already have but here it is again.
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make Him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. *Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/proved to be right by her deeds."
I already shared the definition for the word "justified" in this thread. You need to stop making false accusations. I'll be awaiting your apology.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
G1344 - dikaioō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
Strong's Concordance
dikaioó: to show to be righteous, declare righteous
Original Word: δικαιόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dikaioó
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yo'-o)
Definition: to show to be righteous, declare righteous
Usage: I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.
Strong's Greek: 1344. δικαιόω (dikaioó) -- to show to be righteous, declare righteous
Enough with the slander and James does speak for himself and I properly speak for James. It's you who is inserting your ideas into the text. It's called eisegesis. You error by failing to understand that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) This remains your stumbling block. James does not teach salvation by works.
James wasn't talking about faith that trusts in Christ 'alone' for salvation. (Ephesians 2:8,9) James was talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains 'alone' - barren of works. These are two separate alone's in connection with two different things. I'll never forget how frustrated I was prior to my conversion when believers tried to explain this to me. I didn't get it either and until the blinders are removed none of us are capable of getting it. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
We are justified (accounted as righteous) by God through faith, not works (Romans 4:2-6) and justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21) Until you get this figured out, you will remain confused and you will also remain on thin ice.
Your cart before the horse error continues to result in salvation by faith "and works." So in Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works-salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites. *Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) In either sense, only believers obey Him.
Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.
I agree with James that an empty profession of faith that remains 'alone' - barren of works is dead. You still don't understand the difference between an empty profession/dead faith that remains 'alone' - barren of works (James - James 2:14) and faith that trusts in Christ 'alone" for salvation (Paul - Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and until you do I can't help you any further.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Your eisegesis, bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics result in a "works based" false gospel. It's painfully obvious that you are throughly indoctrinated into CAMPBELLISM.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Yes Agreed, People can do their own thing.
* As far as the OT, (and in this day), The Spirit of God IS “WITH” a man who is “WITH” God.
* Gods Spirit being “WITH” a man, IS NOT SALVATION.
* Gods Spirit being “WITH” a man, Leaves a man, WHEN, a man freely chooses to Leave God.
* A man “WITH” the Spirit of God, is a man Believing AND NOT forsaking God.
(Here comes a bit of confusion.)
Gods Spirit with a man, Gee, what does God WANT me to do?
Will I be separated from Gods Spirit, if I wear clothing of mixed fabrics?
Will I be separated from Gods Spirit, if I take another mans wife?
* Those are simply not following established direction and trespassing against another man.
* Those are simply daily things a man knows Right from Wrong, intentionally chooses Wrong, and shall himself bear burden of all the negative consequences of his choices...(gossip, ruins his reputation, his trust, hated by people he upset their families, retaliation, plots against him, financial ruin, etc. etc. Same things as today.)
* Does THAT ^ cause Gods Spirit to leave a man? No.
* Does THAT ^ cause contention Among men? Yes.
* WHAT Caused the Spirit of God, TO Leave Saul?
* Saul’s Choice TO LEAVE God, BETRAY God, FORSAKE God.
(Same things occur today.)
* The KEY word is “WITH”.
* The KEY word “WITH”, is paramount to TIMING of a mans PHYSICAL DEATH.
At the TIME of a mans Physical Death.......”IF” Gods Spirit “IS” WITH a man......The Promise IS, that man “has endured to his end”. Endured...Chosen to BE WITH God...Kept himself WITH God...Has NOT Forsaken God......THUS, at the Time of his Physical Death.....
THEN, SHALL BE SAVED.
* Saul Forsook God, THEN Killed himself.
* When Saul Forsook God, Gods Spirit was NO LONGER WITH Saul.
* When Saul Physically Died, He COULD NOT BE SAVED, (by the Spirit of God that was NOT with Saul.)
* The same Happened to Judas Iscariot.
* The same Happens to other men. And Scripture repeatedly WARNS men who Believe; Gods Spirit IS WITH them, and should they then Forsake God, Gods Spirit SHALL LEAVE them.
THAT is the confusion. SHALL BE SAVED.....IS SAVED?
Promised SALVATION, Having SALVATION, Losing SALVATION?
Saul our example in this scenario.
Saul WAS NOT “SAVED” while alive in his Flesh.
Saul HAD THE PROMISE of Salvation, “IF” he believed in God.
Saul Believed in God.
Gods Spirit was “WITH” Saul, Because of Saul’s Belief.
........Had Saul, STAYED WITH God, to the day of his Physical Death...
ON the Day of Saul Physical DEATH, Gods Spirit would have been WITH Saul, and SAVED Saul...THEN.
.......HOWEVER, Saul Forsook God, Left God, Sought ANOTHER SPIRIT, (and Saul having his men bring tithes to “him”, was the beginning of Saul’s marked timing of elevating himself above God.)
* Impressing...Saul LOST the Promise of receiving his Salvation.
* Saying Saul LOST his Salvation, IS NOT indicative, of Saul having “received” Salvation, and THEN “his Salvation” was taken away.
* Salvation IS a Promise OFFERED TO ALL.
* Receiving OF Salvation IS ONLY ONE TIME.
The Receiving OF SALVATION “ALWAYS” IS “AFTER” the Body HAS DIED.
Once SALVATION IS Received, IT IS FOREVER.
* DEAD BODY’S KNOW NOTHING.
* DEAD Body’s Can Not Change, being with, being without God.
* The KEY, of “RECEIVING” of Salvation....Completely Changes,
THE Language......OF “WITH”....TO “WITH-IN”.
* Jesus’ Offered, living men, Willing to lay down their life crucified WITH Jesus...the Promise OF SALVATION NOW....(before natural physical death)...called a new better Testament....and Gods Spirit “WITH-IN”, a man, IS the man receiving his Promise of Salvation, Once and Forever.
That man CAN NEVER FORSAKE God, and God can NEVER FORSAKE “that” man.
The Spirit of God......WITH a LIVING natural man..can abruptly change.
The Spirit of God......WITH-IN a LIVING natural man...can NOT Change...(WHILE that man continues Living in his natural flesh).
THAT ^ “with-in” has it’s circumstances, as well, going into deeper understanding.
Considering the DEAD BODY, knowing Gods Spirit does not dwell IN DEAD BODY’S. A whole other lesson.
Yes, God will save ANYONE, who Choose the Lord God Almighty to BE their God, AND during their natural Life times, DO NOT FORSAKE God.
God Bless,
Taken
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Campbellites love to pick on Baptists.
John 6:29 is simply a play on words by Jesus when he said, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" Jesus was simply saying this is what God requires. So Jesus was not saying that believing is just "another work," which would contradict Ephesians 2:8,9. *Note the distinction between faith and works - "saved through faith, not works."
Faith is faith and work is work.
You have disproved nothing and faith onlyism (James 2:24) is not the same as faith in Christ alone for salvation (Paul - Ephesians 2:8,9) Campbellites do not understand this.
Did Paul say that we are saved through the work of faith along with other works in Ephesians 2:8,9? No he didn't. Paul said we are saved through FAITH, NOT WORKS. *Note the distinction between faith AND works.*
No once again you missed Jesus' play on words in John 6:29 and Jesus was not teaching that faith is just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. You are really confused.
When we obey the commandment to believe in Jesus we are doing what God requires. The work of God (play on words) doing what God requires is that we believe in Jesus for salvation. This is not working for salvation. What did Paul have to say about "works of righteousness" in Titus 3:5? Paul said it is not by works of righteousness by which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. You just contradicted Paul. Acts 10:35 is another stumbling block for works-salvationists. In regards to Acts 10:35, working righteousness is the result of an already established faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5), but works of righteousness in connection with salvation are the fruit of and not the means of salvation. You have it backwards once again. This verse gives a description of a saved believer, not a prerequisite for salvation. Those who work righteousness do so as the result of already having been saved through faith. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Works-salvationists typically confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
More unscriptural nonsense.
“For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?” (1 Peter 4:17)
So here we have those that obey the gospel of God under the risk of judgment as well as those who don’t obey it.
“And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?” (1 Peter 4:18)
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
So true Biblical faith does not result in obedience according to you? Works-salvation is nonsense.
We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
Perhaps you are obeying a "different" gospel. Something to think about.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
No, according to scriptures!
“By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name” (Romans 1:5)
You have to obey the faith.
Not have true biblical faith to obtain obedience.
And this isn’t taught anywhere in scripture, “having true biblical faith results in obedience”. It’s just more vain talk from vain talkers.
Shorten up your posts, because if your doctrine were biblical it wouldn’t take that many words to explain it.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
sadly. Its not part of the ten commands., So people think they are good enough.
If you look in scripture. it is the number one sin, In fact. ALL overt and mental attitude sins are rooted in this one sin
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