Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Please reconsider the verses I put forth to you, friend. That's all I ask. It's not what about I say but what doth the Scripture saith?
Once Saved, Always Saved?
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Please reconsider the verses I put forth to you, friend. That's all I ask. It's not what about I say but what doth the Scripture saith?
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
So let me ask you. If a Christian were to look upon a woman in lust, and they got hit by a bus, and they immediately died, are they saved? I don't think they are saved because 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. In other words, do you believe OSAS Christians are perfectly sinless? If so... what of the time before they confess of their sins? I don't believe they are forgiven yet until they confess because 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. To me, this is justifying a degree of sin if an OSAS believer thinks they can be saved without confessing of their sin (even for a short period of time). Got Questions has an article saying that a backslidden Christian is saved and yet they also contradict themselves and say that a believer is characterized by living progressively more holy.
Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org
So yes. They are justifying sin.
As for your quote of John 10:29:
When you read about how we cannot be plucked out of God's hand, you have to read the context of verse 27.
It says that the kind of sheep that this is in context to is those sheep who FOLLOW Jesus.
Christians who reject OSAS are not immune to falling into sin and spiritual death.
There are many errors that can lead a believer away from the Lord Jesus.
I am also not immune to falling away.
All believers (including myself) have to endure to the end and be faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ.
You said:No....do you believe he promised us eternal life ?
1 John 2:25
“And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.”
But when you read the context, it is not just to any believer. These believers obeyed God.
1 John 2:14
I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
This is also said in context to John saying:
“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:3-4).
So the promise of eternal life is given to these kinds of believers and not disobedient ones or those who think they can sin and still be saved (Which is what OSAS really teaches).
You said:
I have been using lots of Scripture thus far to refute OSAS.
You said:lol how many osas people have you talked in depth to.. or is this just your thoughts? just curious
I have argued against OSAS on various different Christian forums since 2010 approximately. I have posted 62,000 posts approximately over the years and a good number of them did deal with refuting OSAS. So I am not new to the subject by any means.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Jesus said we should seek the Father's righteousness, not our own. The Father's righteousness is obeying the Law.
Wow —- it just does not get any worse than this...If obedience to the Law could save anyone—- “ Christ died in vain”......
“ Christ is the END of the Law for Righteousness to all that Believe”
Jesus ACTUALLY said that we must “ Do The Will Of His Father”...... what is that “ Will?” To BELIEVE in the One That He sent” ......
Wow —- it just does not get any worse than this...If obedience to the Law could save anyone—- “ Christ died in vain”......
“ Christ is the END of the Law for Righteousness to all that Believe”
Jesus ACTUALLY said that we must “ Do The Will Of His Father”...... what is that “ Will?” To BELIEVE in the One That He sent” ......
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Please reconsider Paul's words to the Galatians.
Paul's big points were...
#1. Refuting the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism or the false belief that said you had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved (Please slowly read: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Galatians 2:3, and Galatians 5:2).
#2. Asking: Did you RECEIVE the Spirit by the works of the law (613 Laws of Moses or the Old Law that is for Israel and not Christians) or by the hearing of faith? This word RECEIVE is key. It's referring to their Initial Salvation.
#2. Asking: Did you RECEIVE the Spirit by the works of the law (613 Laws of Moses or the Old Law that is for Israel and not Christians) or by the hearing of faith? This word RECEIVE is key. It's referring to their Initial Salvation.
So when Paul says in Galatians 3:3, “Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” Paul is saying this in reference to their thinking they had to be circumcised according to the Old Law in order to be saved. Are they made perfect by the flesh because of circumcision? The answer is no. In context, Sanctification of the Holy Spirit to follow the commands of Jesus and His followers is not in view here.
In Galatians 5:19-21, Paul lists various sins, and he says, “they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Anyways, may the Lord's good ways shine upon you.
Side Note:
Oh, and if you can give me a commentary on Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Galatians 2:3, and Galatians 5:2 it would be greatly be appreciated. If you are on the side of the truth surely you should be able to easily explain these verses. Was not circumcision for salvation the context of what Paul was referring to in Galatians 3:3? If this was not the case, prove your case using the context of the Bible.
As a matter of fact ,you ARE a “ captive” ....Why? Because Jesus also said that “ Nothing in the Future” can take you from His Grip .....Do you know what “ Nothing” means? Do you know what the Future is? .....Jesus has it ALL covered for anybody that has put their Trust in Him to Save them.....A one— time Trust qualifies you to be covered by the Promise .....If you Trust in Christ at any point in time and then later IN THE FUTURE decide to withdraw that trust......you are out of luck....if you fall into Error in the FUTURE you are still in His Grip.....He told you as much...OSAS ! ....it can’t be denied, if you understand plain English...
You must believe the Gospel Of 1Cor 15:1-4 in order to be Saved.....that Gospel has two parts.....the first part of that Saving “ Good News” declares that “ Jesus died for your sins” ....if Jesus died for your sins, what sin could you commit that would ever damn you? The answer is “ NONE” .
The instant that it hit me that I could Sin in any way, shape or form that I “wanted” to and not go to Hell for it was the exact same instant that I decided that I did not “ want” to sin anymore....That is how True Christianity works....That is how God gets the results that he wants to see in a human life...Setting Believers Free....removing that Terrible , Legalistic , Performance - Weight from your shoulders creates gratitude....it creates Love....Love Is the Engine that “ Drives” Obedience ....it comes naturally if you Believe the Gospel to the point that you REST in the Gospel....God demands this “ Rest” .....If you are not Resting, you are Working, and God says that you are guilty of “ UNBELIEF” if you do not Rest.....Read Hebrews 3 and 4..... then try to tell me that I am wrong....God Bless...
The instant that it hit me that I could Sin in any way, shape or form that I “wanted” to and not go to Hell for it was the exact same instant that I decided that I did not “ want” to sin anymore....That is how True Christianity works....That is how God gets the results that he wants to see in a human life...Setting Believers Free....removing that Terrible , Legalistic , Performance - Weight from your shoulders creates gratitude....it creates Love....Love Is the Engine that “ Drives” Obedience ....it comes naturally if you Believe the Gospel to the point that you REST in the Gospel....God demands this “ Rest” .....If you are not Resting, you are Working, and God says that you are guilty of “ UNBELIEF” if you do not Rest.....Read Hebrews 3 and 4..... then try to tell me that I am wrong....God Bless...
Taken
Well-Known Member
If the only thing is is that person is a Christian....
*That gives no indication the person WAS Saved the moment they were looking at a woman.
*That does indicated the person WAS a Believer, and Yes then at the moment of death, that person WOULD BECOME SAVED.
That person had Belief in their Heart of God and Christ Jesus, which is a person having a relationship WITH God, thus will be WITH God after physical death.
Lust...is interpreted in numerous way...Looking finding attractive...Looking finding attractive in a ridiculous sort of way, thinking her mate is a lucky guy...wondering if she is as sweet as she is to look at...wondering if she is attached to a partner.....Advancing her for one purpose....A Burning desire is a lingering desire to begin conjuring up thoughts of arranging provisions for one purpose.
Lust...is one casting eyes upon the OUTSIDE of an other as first step interest.
Scripture is about teaching, what is on the INSIDE of an other., regardless of the OUTSIDE Looks.
Inasmuch as people LIKE To LOOK at pretty things, and every time a man looks at a pretty woman, it’s MUST be him desiring lewd intentions and on the flip side people many people CAST their eyes AWAY from what they glance and find not pretty....
Point being....our eyes are designed to look and see, however it is where our thoughts go and linger or begins imagining and arranging provisions for lewdness that is ungodly.
I don’t believe LOOK and SEE, means a SIN has been committed.
A person calling themselves a Christian does not mean sinless.
A person who has become Converted does not mean sinless.
A person who SHALL BE risen up in Glory, shall then be risen in a sinless body.
1 John 1;9 occurs BEFORE a person becomes Converted.
Converted IS one who has RECEIVED their Salvation.
One who has RECEIVED their Salvation IS SAVED.
IS SAVED, IS CONVERTED....Saved Once, Saved Forever. Or if one prefers the acronym OSAS.
Agree, you as a BELIEVER, can fall away.
Agree, you as a BELIEVE, must endure to your end.
Your enduring is you “hoping” you “Keep enduring/ie Believing” to your end of physical life.
I no longer “hope” for what I was given and received...CONVERSION.
The whole world was given....The Lords Body crucified dead.
I gave my body, I accepted His forgiveness, I accepted His restoring my soul (ie saving), I accepted His quickening my spirit (ie born again),
I accepted His risen body to dwell IN. I accepted His Spirit to dwell in me and KEEP ME.
See the difference?
*You are “hoping” by your own power that you “KEEP enduring/believing” to the day you physically die.
* I already gave my body unto death, crucified with Him.
I’m not HOPING to keep Believing. I have His Power IN me,
That it is NOT POSSIBLE for me to ever NOT Believe.
* Do you realize, Gods Power supersedes ALL OTHER POWER?
* WHAT power could possibly could convince me (with Gods Power IN me)...to NOT BELIEVE ? A wicked sneaky underhanded man? An evil spirit? Nada!
And...WHAT COMMANDS is a person SUPPOSED to KEEP?
Sort of depends on WHO that person is ...
A person WHO IS Converted (OSAS)....HAS TWO COMMANDS, because the rest were already accomplished.
Matt 22:
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Now we KNOW, the COMMANDS the Lord gives, are the SAME COMMANDS that the Lord applies TO Himself.
And AGAIN...A CONVERTED man HAS the Spirit/Power of God “IN” him.
Ya think Gods POWER “IN” a man is going to KEEP that man IN obedience, or God is going to be twiddling his thumbs while a man IS inviting SIN into himself?
The “kinds” of Believers, that RECEIVE Salvation, are the “Believers” WILLING to lay down their Life For their Lord God and BE MADE CONVERTED “THEN”.
You have option to do that .... BEFORE physical DEATH, and receive your Salvation....
OR
Wait to your physical DEATH...and HOPE on the day you die, you have kept YOURSELF in Belief...if so...”THEN” you shall be saved.
‘’’’SAVED NOW”...CONVERTED IN Christ.
...OR
...”SHALL BE SAVED”....if you endure, keeping believing to your end.
ONCE....(not 2,3,4,5,to infinity), ONCE a person IS SAVED, it’s a done deal.
Your scriptures refute nothing.
Your scriptures are about things that occur BEFORE receiving Salvation.
You implying a SAVED PERSON skipped Gods WAY, is nonsense.
Posting Against what you do not understand, is revealed in your posts.
Learn the definition of ONCE.
Search the scriptures of HOW MANY TIMES an individual person RECEIVES Salvation.
Search the scriptures of WHAT is Gods ORDER and WAY, TO receive Salvation ....... BEFORE a mans Physical Death....AFTER a mans Physical Death.
When you can identify What, when, how, why, God has offered, and What, when, how, why a man can receive His Offering....you might begin to realize simply making accusations, and offering scriptures that do not apply, holds no merit for your claims.
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i do apologize for getting back into this post. i thought maybe i could get a intelligent reply.. wrong was i ever wrong no more questions . i really could care less how many post you made . your level of intelligence shows
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Paul also said that I DO NOT WANT TO DO, I DO. that I want to do I CAN NOT DO.
Your constant rejection of the truth and badgering people with false truths about what they believe is not winning you any brownie points my friend.
You Sin yourself. So you can't judge other people because they sin.
You under your power trying your best not to sin is not going to save you any more than the saved sinner who is struggling not to sin but like paul keeps falling.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
It is a straw man.
You tell me. You are the one who preaches 'non-death sins vs. death sins' (similar to venial sins vs. mortal sins in Roman Catholicism) and 'type 2 works salvation.'
You seem to feed on straw man arguments and even slander at times. I'm not against striving to live a holy life. I'm just against self righteousness by claiming to exalt ourselves as "holier than thou." We are to humble ourselves, which does not include self righteousness.
Believers are saved apart from the merit of works (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8-9) yet saving faith does not remain apart from the presence of works. (James 2:14-24) Believers are also not sinless, without fault of defect, flawless, 100% of the time (1 John 1:8) yet believers do not [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practice sin either. (1 John 3:9)
If you believe that we are saved based on good works and refraining from sin, then just how many good works does it take and just how much sin must you refrain from? All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Christians are not sinless 100% of the time, but they should sin less and those who are born of God doe not practice sin. (1 John 3:9) You seem to have your own personal standard of grading. Do you grade on a curve?
I never heard EG say anything about having a license to sin and I never said it either, yet you are obsessed with bringing an indictment.
Living a holy life and doing good works is part of having been saved and is not part of becoming saved. So how much holy living and how many good works must we accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Jesus save us? That is what you are really implying.
That is descriptive of all genuine believers and not only 'super saints' like yourself. ;) ALL who are justified will be glorified (Romans 8:30) and the Lord does not forsake His saints, they are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28)
We love God because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) God’s love has been poured into our (believers) hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. (Romans 5:5) Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7) 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we 'keep' (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. New Testament Christians are not under the Law of Moses.
Not at all. Those who reject the general call are not chosen because they reject the call. The few chosen accept the general call which culminates in receiving the effectual call.
Effectual call yes. General call not necessarily. So believing the gospel is only the first step to receiving salvation according to you? Then comes the process of becoming holy "enough" and producing "enough" good works in order to maintain salvation according to you? Good luck with that!
Amen! Elsewhere we read - But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts. (Romans 13:14) This is what we are to strive to do as the elect of God.
We are to follow Jesus Christ and it's not only 'super saints' like yourself who do. ;) Believers start out as babes in Christ and grow towards maturity in Christ and some will grow faster than others. Unbelievers follow another master. We are to 'work out' our salvation and not work for our salvation. This is in regards to the process of ongoing sanctification. There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get mixed up by works-salvationists. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)
'All things that offend, and those who do iniquity/practice lawlessness' is descriptive of unbelievers and not believers. OSAS does not teach that fake believers will be glorified. You are really desperate for an indictment against OSAS believers.
DESCRIPTIVE OF UNBELIEVERS.
"Professing" (key word) believer. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together in various churches and on various Christian forum sites. You seem to have a difficult time grasping this.
I never said that it won't happen to unbelievers.
You mean 'make believers' who justify sin. Genuine believers in the OSAS camp do not justify sin. That is slander.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I Am saddened by those who do not believe God will complete what HE started., and think somehow it comes from them. Thats religion 101. Satan's greatest lie
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
A Sunday school teacher when I was a teen used the example of a cookie in a cookie jar.
Dont mention it and the kid will not be tempted to steal. He will ask.
Mention it and make it off limits. the kid will do what he can to steel the cookie.
The law stirs up the desire in our flesh to do what is forbidden.
When we seek to serve and love others, the things of the spirit. we do not fulfill the lusts. Because our focus is outward (spirit). Not inward (flesh)
The law keeps us focused inward. Thats why it was given to show us how we fail at being righteous, not to show us how to be righteous
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
No, he said:
“For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.” (Romans 7:5)
And when we were in the flesh we struggled with this:
“For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.” (Romans 7:18-19)
But then, after using the above as a contrast, he says:
“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9)
So we are no longer in the flesh doing the evil we don’t want to do.
I believe God will complete what he started if you bring forth fruit (no more sins).
So beware!
“And he said to the vinedresser, ‘Look, for three years now I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down. Why should it use up the ground?’ And he answered him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and put on manure. Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.’”” (Luke 13:7-9)
“Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.” (John 15:2)
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
sadly, when your self focused. You have no ability to actually discuss with others what they belief, and your left with no option bit to attack,
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
so should I make the bible contradict?
Or take the word as a whole and make it flow smoothly?
The verses you give cause the verses I give you to contradict.
I can explain why they appear to contradict. Why can't you?
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
We are justified (accounted as righteous) by faith, not works (Romans 4:2-6) and we are justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:18, 21, 24) You need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) *This remains your achilles heel and also exposes you as teaching salvation by works* which explains a lot!
I already thoroughly explained this to you and 'faith alone' here is referring to an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains 'alone' - barren of works (James 2:14) and not authentic faith. Genuine believers understand this. I already thoroughly explained this to you in post #1133.
Once again you demonstrate that you don't have ears to hear which explains a lot! As I already explained to you in post #1133, in James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous. That is what he is plainly saying and you don't like it because you teach salvation by works.
We are not justified (accounted as righteous) by works at all (Romans 4:2-6) but we are justified (shown to be righteous) by works (James 2:18, 21, 24) Yet according to you, we are initially saved by grace through faith, not works, but ultimately we are saved by works. That is 'type 2 works salvation' in a nutshell.
Now you sound like the workers in the vineyard who worked all day for a denarius and grumbled against workers who were hired later and worked for only one hour yet also received a denarius and were made equal to them. (Matthew 20:8–12) You seem to think that you deserve salvation based on hard work.
In this parable, the talents represent monetary value and are distibuted according to ability. (Matthew 25:15) The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their talents with the bankers (verse 27) but the third servant buried his talent in the ground. (verse 25) The third servant had been given a talent according to his ability and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but chose to reject it.
The fact that the latter man in this parable is called "wicked" and "lazy" and an "unprofitable" servant (Matthew 25:26-30) who is "cast out into outer darkness," certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results at all are not truly converted.
This man's characterization of the master maligns him as "reaping and gathering what he had no right to claim as his own." This wicked so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer, for it is obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean that he was saved.
The children of Israel were called "servants," but they were not all saved.
Leviticus 25:55 - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt.
*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, (the Israelites) but later destroyed those who did not believe.
Nehemiah 1:6 - please let Your ear be attentive and Your eyes open, that You may hear the prayer of Your servant which I pray before You now, day and night, for the children of Israel Your servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel which we have sinned against You. Both my father’s house and I have sinned.
Isaiah 43:10 - “You (Israel vs. 1) are My witnesses,” says the Lord, And My servant whom I have chosen..
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Excuse me sir. But paul said present tense. I do not do what I want to do.
He did not say, I did not do what I want to do. and I did not do what I wanted to do.
He is talking about the struggle we all have. I don;t know. maybe you do not stuggle with it? If that's the case. Your the first person I ever met. I do not know whether to congratulate you for making it or to feel sorry for you for thinking you have made it when you have not.
Jesus said he WILL COMPLETE IT, He did not say he MIGHT.. Just like he said we have eternal life not conditional.
as for 15: 2 the greek there says "Lift up" not take away. It is a common thing for vinedressers to lift up branches that are on the groun so they can PRODUCE MORE FRUIT. it is also a common thing for them to CUT OFF dead branches that the live parts may produce more fruit.
He has been doing both to me for 40 year and his work is not done.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Your no different.
there was nothing wrong with circumcision, or doing works of the law.
The issue was they were trying to add them to the gospel as required for salvation.
The law taught that these works must be done to be saved, failure would cause you to lose favor. and you would need to be re-saved by sacrifice.
Its the jewish version of NOSAS. And paul called them fools. because they believed they were initially saved in the spirit (like you tell us day after day, initial salvation) but that salvation must be maintained in the flesh or it would be lost, again like you say.
Granted, Paul spoke to a particular group that had a particular problem.
His message still stands with any group with the same problem.
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