Not ALL the physically dead are raised at the same time, the dead in Christ rise FIRST.

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is where the Amils contradict themselves. They say Jesus is the first resurrection and when each individual is born again they are also spiritually resurrected with him. But the sealing of each individual by the Spirit has been ongoing for a couple of thousand years.

But Revelation 20:4-6 is a single end time event that happens at the last trump at the last day when the dead in Christ rise first and are judged first.

When you say above that Rev. 20:4-6 is “spiritual” you deny that there is a physical resurrection of the dead in Christ at that time, at the last trump at the last day.

No, he does not deny that! No amil does! Stop your lies! You can interpret that passage the way amils do and also believe that the physical resurrection of the dead in Christ will occur at the future second coming of Christ at the last trumpet at the last day, which we do. Just because you may not understand that because of your ignorance doesn't mean you can falsely accuse us of saying that the resurrection of the dead in Christ already occurred, which we do not believe.

This of course is false doctrine.

2 Timothy 2:15-18​

​

King James Version​

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

This is slanderous to apply that passage to amils. We do NOT believe that the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ "is past already", so stop making that false accusation!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is where the Amils contradict themselves. They say Jesus is the first resurrection

He is, according to scripture (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20). Not all amils interpret the first resurrection that way. I do and many others do, but others don't. Some say that going from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ itself is the first resurrection. I say that is the way that we have part in Christ's resurrection, which is the first resurrection acording to scripture.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Do you disagree that this says that Jesus was the first to be resurrected from the dead? It says that in 1 Cor 15:20 as well and the context is in relation to Him veing the first to be bodily resurrected from the dead unto bodily immortality.

and when each individual is born again they are also spiritually resurrected with him. But the sealing of each individual by the Spirit has been ongoing for a couple of thousand years.

But Revelation 20:4-6 is a single end time event that happens at the last trump at the last day when the dead in Christ rise first and are judged first.

That is your assumption, but that interpretation doesn't line up with the rest of scripture. Because you interpret that passage that way, it causes you to deny what other scriptures like Matthew 28:16-18, John 5:28-29, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Matthew 25:31-46 teach.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It was taught to me that, upon death, people are immediately judged by Jesus. Is that teaching correct?

It's also been taught to me that faithful followers of Christ never die and, upon death, immediately go into Heaven. Again, is that teaching correct?

Thanks.

Good question. The followers of Christ will be raised at the rapture, which is a type of judgment. In other words, if you rise, you are good to go. If not, then not.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

What is worth discussing is you falsely accusing me and others of saying that the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ has already happened when we're not saying that at all. Stop lying!

When you and others claim the first resurrection is spiritual, and is not physical, you reject the testimony of Jesus Christ concerning the first resurrection of the dead in Christ as shown In Revelation 20.

Those who are truly born again of the Holy Spirit would know the difference between that which is spiritual and that which is physical. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, not the spirit of error.

This Amil doctrine is NOT of the Holy Spirit.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That’s the problem right there, you Amils think Rev. 20’s “the first resurrection” is about Jesus being resurrected; which is why you also believe the thousand year reign of Christ on earth started way back then.

That is also why you cannot accept the thousand year reign of Christ on earth along with His physically resurrected saints on earth as being yet future, because you believe it has already been fulfilled.

That is a strong delusion you guys are under.

I don't know about a delusion, but we all resist changing our minds, even in the light of new evidence. 1948 happened, which defeated Amillennialism. :) Some haven't changed their minds yet.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When you and others claim the first resurrection is spiritual, and is not physical, you reject the testimony of Jesus Christ concerning the first resurrection of the dead in Christ as shown In Revelation 20.

If you believe we are misinterprting Revelation 20, so be it, but STOP falsely accusing us of saying that the dead in Christ have already been bodily resurrected because we do NOT believe that!

Those who are truly born again of the Holy Spirit would know the difference between that which is spiritual and that which is physical. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, not the spirit of error.

This Amil doctrine is NOT of the Holy Spirit.

It most certainly IS of the Holy Spirit. Your weak arguments do nothing to refute it, that's for sure.

It's NOT of the Holy Spirit to try to change a passage like John 5:28-29 to say that two HOURS are coming when the dead will be raised instead of the singular HOUR that Jesus said is coming when all of the dead will be raised.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't know about a delusion, but we all resist changing our minds, even in the light of new evidence. 1948 happened, which defeated Amillennialism. :) Some haven't changed their minds yet.

LOL!!! What happened in 1948 defeated Amillennialism? Hardly! LOL!!! You guys are comedians.

 

[covenantee]

I don't know about a delusion, but we all resist changing our minds, even in the light of new evidence. 1948 happened, which defeated Amillennialism. :) Some haven't changed their minds yet.

Antichrists defeated Amillennialism?

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

STOP falsely accusing us of saying that the dead in Christ have already been bodily resurrected because we do NOT believe that!

You are the ones that claim the first resurrection is Jesus’ resurrection, and that it is a spiritual ( not a physical) resurrection.

Here is what you blind guides don’t understand….

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Jesus’ resurrection was not spiritual, Jesus was physically resurrected from physical death, hence the words “of them that slept”

 

[PinSeeker]

This is the contradiction, you are trying conflate the 2 as one.

Nope.

By saying the first physical resurrection is the really the second physical resurrection you expose the error in that false doctrine.

That's not quite what I'm saying, SOTM. There is only one physical resurrection. And, at the final Judgment, both those on Jesus's right and those on His left will have experienced it ~ all at once, generally speaking, but the ones on His left immediately after the ones on His right.

Rev 20:4-6 is talking about a physical resurrection...

Okay, well, we disagree on this. The resurrection in view in Revelation 20:4-6 is the same resurrection that Paul talks about in Ephesians 2 and Peter talks about in 1 Peter 1. It is spiritual in nature; our spirits, which previously were dead, are... well, as Paul puts it, "made alive together with Christ" and thus we are "raised up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus," and as Peter puts it, "born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for (us)." It's very literal, but spiritual ~ regarding our spirit ~ in nature.

that happens in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.

Hmmm... you're referring here 1 Corinthians 15:51, obviously, where Paul is talking specifically to believers, God's elect. We will certainly be raised imperishable, which is to say we will be resurrected to eternal life, which is what Jesus says in John 5:28. This is the second resurrection as it is given to all those in Christ. We will be resurrected ~ physically; our spirits will be reunited with our physical bodies ~ to eternal life.

But there is another "side" to this second resurrection, given to... a different group of folks... <smile> ...and that's what Jesus says in John 5:29.

And this is all graphically portrayed by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46.

These saints that are beheaded were physically dead, but now they live at the first ressurection.

They are still physically dead, of course... But their "first resurrection" happened at some point in their lives prior to their martyrdom. They, too, were spiritually born again of the Spirit at some point in their lives and raised in Christ.

Grace and peace to you, SOTM.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are the ones that claim the first resurrection is Jesus’ resurrection

Hello? Is that not what this says:

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Do you deny that Jesus was "the first that should rise from the dead"?

, and that it is a spiritual ( not a physical) resurrection.

Here is what you blind guides don’t understand….

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Jesus’ resurrection was not spiritual, Jesus was physically resurrected from physical death, hence the words “of them that slept”

Listen, you ignoramus, you are the one who isn't getting it. That verse also says that Jesus was the first to rise from the dead (context is first to rise unto bodily immortality), so that makes His resurrection the first resurrection. Paul said His resurrection was the first in order and then next are those who are Christ's at His coming (1 Cor 15:22-23).

Do you deny that we spiritually have part in His resurrection when we're saved/born again?

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

This passage talks about spiritually having part in Christ's bodily resurrection by way of going from being spiritually dead in our sins to being made spiritually alive with Him. Since His resurrection was the first resurrection (unto bodily immortality) then this passage is talking about how we have part in the first resurrection. You are not allowing scripture to interpret scripture here and you are instead interpreting Revelation 20 in isolation from the rest of scripture, which is a foolish approach to interpreting that passage.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Antichrists defeated Amillennialism?

That's what he apparently thinks. What a joke. Anyone who thinks that God had anything to do with what happened back then is fooling himself or herself. There is no evidence for that whatsoever when you consider the ones making it happen reject our God and Savior Jesus Christ. Anyone who rejects the Son also rejects the Father. So, no, that event did not defeat Amillennialsm whatsoever.

 

[PinSeeker]

You are the ones that claim the first resurrection is Jesus’ resurrection

Nope. See above.

, and that it is a spiritual (not a physical) resurrection.

Jesus's resurrection was most certainly physical. And ensures that ours (our part in the second resurrection, upon His return) will be like His (Romans 6:5).

Here is what you blind guides don’t understand….

Okay, that's enough. <smile>

Jesus’ resurrection was not spiritual,

Calvinists certainly agree with this. Jesus, Who was and is one with the Father, the second Person of the triune God, and... God... <smile> was never in need of a spiritual birth.

Jesus was physically resurrected from physical death, hence the words “of them that slept”

Absolutely. Agreed.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Calvinists certainly agree with this. Jesus, Who was and is one with the Father, the second Person of the triune God, and... God... <smile> was never in need of a spiritual birth.

What a weird thing to say. That has nothing to do with whether someone is a Calvinist or not.

 

[PinSeeker]

What a weird thing to say.

Hm. Okay, well, that ~ to me, anyway ~ is a weird (and unexpected) response. <smile> He was focused on the fact that we are Calvinists, so, I said, Calvinists. Perhaps I should have said, "Calvinists also certainly agree..." <smile>

That has nothing to do with whether someone is a Calvinist or not.

Sure, I agree. I would hope that all Christians agree that Jesus, Who was and is one with the Father, the second Person of the triune God, was never in need of a spiritual birth. But there are non-Trinitarian Christians out there, unfortunately...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Jesus's resurrection was most certainly physical. And ensures that ours (our part in the second resurrection,

Again you are calling the first resurrection the second resurrection because YOU think the first resurrection is spiritual.

The first resurrection is a physical bodily resurrection, as was with Jesus.
Paul makes it clear the first resurrection (like with Jesus) is the resurrection from physical death.

1 Corinthians 15:12-54​

King James Version​

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodiesterrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

So was Jesus physically resurrected, or spiritually resurrected? And is Paul talking about a physical bodily resurrection for those who sleep in Christ, or a spiritual resurrection as Amils propose? You decide. Peace

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hm. Okay, well, that ~ to me, anyway ~ is a weird (and unexpected) response. <smile> He was focused on the fact that we are Calvinists, so, I said, Calvinists. Perhaps I should have said, "Calvinists also certainly agree..." <smile>

No, he was talking about amillennialists in particular there, not Calvinists.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Again you are calling the first resurrection the second resurrection because YOU think the first resurrection is spiritual.

The first resurrection is a physical bodily resurrection, as was with Jesus.
Paul makes it clear the first resurrection (like with Jesus) is the resurrection from physical death.

1 Corinthians 15:12-54​

King James Version​

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodiesterrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

So was Jesus physically resurrected, or spiritually resurrected? And is Paul talking about a physical bodily resurrection for those who sleep in Christ, or a spiritual resurrection as Amils propose? You decide. Peace

If the resurrection of the dead in Christ that will occur when Jesus comes is the first physical, bodily resurrection then why did Paul give an order to the resurrections while listing Jesus's as being the first and indicating that next next in order will be the resurrection of those who are Christ's at His coming?

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

You seem to ignore that Paul was there is an order to the resurrection of the dead. That implies that he was referring to more than one resurrection event. And, he was. He indicated that first in order was "Christ the firstfruits". Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected unto bodily immortality. Do you agree? Who is next in order, according to Paul? He said "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming, so it is "they they that are Christ's at his coming" who are next in order. So, that means Jesus's resurrection was the first resurrection, as Paul explicitly stated in Acts 26:23 and indicated in 1 Cor 15:20-23. Which then means the resurrection of the dead in Christ at His coming is not the first resurrection, but rather the second. So, your doctrinal bias has blinded you to what Paul taught in that passage.

 

[PinSeeker]

No, he was talking about amillennialists in particular there, not Calvinists.

You know, it's really no big deal, but amillennialists and Calvinists are very strongly positively correlated, SI. Most ____ (either one) are ____________ (the other).

I'm betting you'll argue with that, too... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, SI.

 

[PinSeeker]

Again you are calling the first resurrection the second resurrection...

No, I'm most certainly not... <smile>

The first resurrection is a physical bodily resurrection, as was with Jesus.

That's the second, with regard to the first and second as portrayed in Revelation 20.

Paul makes it clear the first resurrection (like with Jesus) is the resurrection from physical death.

1 Corinthians 15:12-5​

The resurrection he's speaking of there corresponds with the second resurrection of Revelation 20.

As I have said, this same Paul clearly talks about another kind of resurrection that must occur before this physical resurrection can happen in Ephesians 2:5-6, "when we were dead in our trespasses, (God) made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him..." This spiritual resurrection must occur before the physical resurrection for one to be saved. Otherwise, there would be no one saved, no one would inherit eternal life, and no one would inhabit the New Heaven and new Earth with Jesus. The first comes before the second... <smile> Nicodemus didn't understand (John 3), but we certainly do. <smile>


This second resurrection is implicit in Revelation 20, having occurred between the events of Revelation 20:4-6 (the first resurrection), and the opening of the scene of the final Judgment in Revelation 20:11-15.

Jesus physically resurrected, or spiritually resurrected?​

As I clearly said, Jesus, Who is God, was not in need of a spiritual resurrection as we are. So that only leaves physical, of course; yes, Jesus was physically resurrected. None of this should need repeating, but yet again, Jesus was never in need of the first resurrection John portrays in Revelation 20:4-6, which is the same resurrection Paul speaks of in Ephesians 2:6.

And is Paul talking about a physical bodily resurrection for those who sleep in Christ...?​

Yes. <smile>

...or a spiritual resurrection as Amils propose?​

You have a mistaken idea of ~ or you're purposely mischaracterizing ~ what "Amils propose," StewardOfTheMystery. It's really no mystery... See what I did there? <smile>

You decide. ​

I have long since done so. <smile>

Peace​

Thank you. Grace and peace to you.