Not ALL the physically dead are raised at the same time, the dead in Christ rise FIRST.

[Spiritual Israelite]

Being born again spiritually is not the first physical resurrection.

That is correct. Being born spiritually is not the same thing as being physically/bodily resurrected, obviously. Christ's resurrection was the first physical resurrection, according to scripture.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

So, to have part in the first resurrection, someone has to have part in Christ's resurrection since that was the first resurrection. How does someone have part in His resurrection? Like this:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

People have been having part in Christ's resurrection for almost 2,000 years now, so that's why the thousand years should be understood as being symbolic of the New Testament era during which people are spiritually saved and spiritually have part in Christ's resurrection which made their salvation possible so that the second death has no power over them (Rev 20:6).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus did not say in the “same” hour, you injected the word “same” to promote your view.

Hoe many hours does He mention? One or two? You are the one changing the text to fit your view.

Notice 2 resurrections are mentioned there…

John 5:29​

​

King James Version​

​

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29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; (first resurrection) and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.(second resurrection)

Where does that indicate there is a long time in between? Nowhere. That just shows that all of the dead will be resurrected with each person experiencing one of two different possible eternal destinies with the saved being resurrected unto being eternal life and the lost being resurrected unto eternal damnation.

Do you do the same thing with this verse and try to say it's talking about two different resurrections at two different times even though the text gives no such indication?

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So the words of Jesus agree above with the words of Jesus in Rev. 20

You are the one changing the text. It only mentions one coming hour during which all of the dead will be raised. You change it to two coming hours during which the dead will be raised. I guarantee that if it wasn't for your doctrinal bias you would not interpret John 5:28-29 the way you do. It clearly refers to the dead saved and lost all being resurrected in the same hour and not two different hours.

Stewardofthemystery Translation:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the HOURS are coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Christ is not the "first resurrection" found in Revelation 20 but he is why it happens.

There are not two different first resurrections in scripture. Concluding that is what people do to try to keep their false doctrine afloat.

Scripture is very clear that Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection, so don't try to change that. Instead, adjust your doctrine and your understanding of Revelation 20 accordingly.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Since Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection, then it should be understood that having part in the first resurrection means to have part in Christ's resurrection in some way. And scripture says we have part in His resurrection by way of being made spiritually alive after previously being spiritually dead in sins.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Rev 20 speaks of two groups of the dead that resurrect/live again.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of this first group of the dead because they resurrect first. The rest have to wait for their resurrection:

"the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev 20:5)

This is the last resurrection of those who are dead. One group resurrected and "the rest" or the remaining ones did not resurrect when the others did.

Consider that the Greek word "zao" is used in verse 4 and is translated as "lived". That word cannot be used to refer to a bodily resurrection. It refers to being alive and living. The Greek word "anazao" is used to refer to the rest of the dead living again after the thousand years. That word can be used to refer to the bodily resurrection of the dead. So, tell me why the word "zao" is used to refer to those who have part in the first resurrection instead of "anazao" if it's talking about their bodily resurrection?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Most make that mistake of applying the Revelation 20:5 verse about the "dead" in the flesh sense, forgetting that on the day of Christ's future coming ALL... the dead will be raised and be either of the "resurrection of life" or of the "resurrection of damnation".

It boggles my mind that you can recognize the truth that all of the dead will be raised on the day of Christ's future coming, but still insist on being premil.

The rest of the dead are dead in the same sense as the dead referenced in verse 4 are dead, right? I think that's quite clear. Otherwise, calling them "the rest of the dead" wouldn't make sense. So, are you then saying you think that the dead referenced in verse 4 are not physically dead? John said he saw their souls. Where else would that be than in heaven? It seems clear that they are physically dead just like the souls John saw in Revelation 6:9-11.

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

Just what 'type'... of body did Apostle Paul teach the resurrection is per 1 Cor.15? Paul said it is to a "spiritual body", the body of "incorruption", and "image of the heavenly" that he described. So is the "resurrection of damnation" to that same type of body? Yes!

In the sense of being a body that can't die (incorruptible) I suppose you would be correct, but I believe Paul was only referring to believers in 1 Cor 15. Notice what he said in this passage:

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Are you suggesting that you believe that those who are resurrected unto damnation will have incorruptible, glorious, and powerful spiritual bodies? I highly doubt that. I don't know for sure what kind of bodies they will have, but why would they have glorious and powerful bodies? That seems like something only believers will have at that point.

In the 1 Cor.15:54 verse, Paul used 4 different Greek words that have 4 different meanings, to show 2 different changes that must occur in order to receive eternal Life through Jesus Christ. Only the first change, from a body of "corruption" (flesh) to the "spiritual body" ("incorruption") will be for the wicked, including the wicked dead that are raised on the day of Christ's coming.

But for those in Christ Jesus, 2 changes will occur unto eternal Life, from a body of "corruption" (flesh) to the "spiritual body" ("incorruption"), AND "this mortal" (mortal liable to die soul) putting on "immortality" (deathlessness). This is for those in Christ only. The wicked will still be subject to the "second death". Their "this mortal" soul will still be in a liable to die condition throughout Christ's future "thousand years" reign.

You really go off the rails here. This can't be supported by scripture at all. You are suggesting that the wicked dead will get another chance at salvation when Christ comes instead of being judged and cast into the lake of fire at that time. Where does scripture ever teach such a thing? Nowhere! Read Matthew 25:31-46. They will be judged and cast into the lake of fire when He comes again. You have invented a doctrine all to yourself here. Do you think God reveals things only to you?

This means the idea of the wicked dead not being resurrected until God's GWT Judgment is NOT what the Rev.20 Scripture is pointing to.

Yes, it is. It's clearly referring to them as being physically dead, so their resurrection is physical as well and occurs when the GWT judgment occurs.

The "dead" of Rev.20:5 represent the wicked dead that are raised on the day of Jesus' return.

Agree. You should just believe in Amil instead of resorting to the nonsense of them then being allowed to live on the earth with another chance at salvation which scripture never teaches. Scripture teaches that after people die they then look forward to judgment (Hebrews 9:27), not to getting another chance at salvation.

They will stand in judgment throughout Christ's "thousand years" reign, and they will be in resurrected type bodies that will still... be subject to the "second death". THAT... is why their resurrection will be called the "resurrection of DAMNATION", for still being subject to being cast into the "lake of fire" at the end of the thousand years.

What does it mean for them to be "subject to being cast into the lake of fire at the end of the thousand years"? Is that a guarantee that they will eventually be cast into the lake of fire or do you believe they get a chance to avoid that? If that's a guarantee then why are they resurrected long before their determined destiny? That would make no sense. If that isn't guaranteed and you're saying they are getting another chance at salvation, then that makes even less sense.

What Rev.20:5 means then, about the "dead" not living again until... is in the eternal Life sense, i.e., to be included among the land of the 'living' in Christ. This is why at God's GWT Judgment after the 1,000 years, the books are opened to see if ANY souls are found written in the book of life (the book of the LIVING). By that it means any names that ARE found, will mean they CONVERTED TO JESUS CHRIST during the 1,000 years, and will be joined among those of the first resurrection.

So, it does seem that you do indeed believe that the wicked dead will be resurrected and given another chance at salvation during the supposed future thousand years. What a terrible doctrine! Once an unsaved person dies they will never get another chance at salvation! That is a doctrine of demons!

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Most make that mistake of applying the Revelation 20:5 verse about the "dead" in the flesh sense, forgetting that on the day of Christ's future coming ALL... the dead will be raised and be either of the "resurrection of life" or of the "resurrection of damnation".

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

It doesn’t say ALL the dead are raised at the same time.

Notice 2 resurrections are mentioned there…

John 5:29

King James Version
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29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; (first resurrection) and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.(second resurrection)

If ALL the dead were raised at the same time Paul would not had said the dead in Christ rise FIRST. Those who are of the first physical resurrection are called blessed and holy and the second death has no power over them. So that excludes ALL those who are of the resurrection of damnation.

So the words of Jesus agree above with the words of Jesus in Rev. 20

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

That is correct. Being born spiritually is not the same thing as being physically/bodily resurrected, obviously. Christ's resurrection was the first physical resurrection, according to scripture.

But Rev. 20 is not about Jesus being resurrected, it’s about the physically dead in Christ rising first at the last day.

People have been having part in Christ's resurrection for almost 2,000 years now,

But being born again of the Holy Spirit is not the same as being physically resurrected at the last day at the last Trump.

Why can’t you understand that being born again spiritually is not the same as being physically resurrected at the last day?

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Do you do the same thing with this verse and try to say it's talking about two different resurrections at two different times even though the text gives no such indication?

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Again there are 2 resurrections mentioned there….

Daniel 12:2

King James Version

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2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, (first resurrection) and some to shame and everlasting contempt.(second resurrection)

 

[TribulationSigns]

Sure it does. Paul said the dead in Christ rise first. So is Paul calling those who are in Christ spiritually dead? Not at all. Paul is talking about the dead physical bodies of the saints when he refers to the dead in Christ being raised up first.

The dead in Christ are those who are in Christ who have died. For example, those saints who have physically died but who now live and reign with Christ in heaven. All of them had part of the first resurrection (born again). They simple change or transfer to heaven upon physical death.

2nd Corinthians 5:6-8

• "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
• (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
• We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Since the dead in Christ are present with Him, He will bring them with Him at the Second Coming. Christ shall come down to the air bringing the dead in Christ with him. In other words, from the Third heaven where He lives, to the first heaven, which is the air or sky we see. This is the illustration of the Rapture, where those in Christ who alive and remain on Earth will rise up to meet the Lord and the dead in Christ, in the air.

When a person is born again of the Holy Spirit they are not physically resurrected at that time.

It is because it is the resurrection took place within the body of death. We were spiritually dead until we are made alive in Christ. In other words, when you accept Christ, you experience spiritual resurrection inside your fleshly body even as you are standing on Earth. When your flesh finally dead, your soul simple transfer to heaven. Not "physical resurrection".

We are still waiting for the redemption of our body at the first resurrection.

Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

We were saved from the just future judgment of the last day, from the moment we were regenerated. Just as God's Word said. And yet we still live in these bodies of death, and so the salvation we hope for is consummated or completed in the redemption of our bodies at that very same last day. In other words, that coming conclusion which we cannot see, but hope for. In the sense that this bodily change at the consummation is what we hope for, it is the full realization of the promise. So the day of redemption is our salvation "fully realized" in that day of bodily redemption and judgment, that we were saved from by the cross. It is in the sense of "THIS" redemption that we hope for it.

Romans 8:23-25

• "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body
• For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
• But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it."

We already have faith, we already have hope, we already have desire for that day of consummation, the day of our redemption, even though we have already been redeemed and we wait for this unseen part (Romans 8:25) of our redemption.

An analogy can be made that it is like your father lives on one coast and you live on another. And he died and left you an inheritance of a great glorious mansion. And even though you are not on the other coast yet, that mansion was already paid for and now "belongs" to you. It doesn't matter that you are not there yet, the mansion is ALREADY your possession. And your hope is to get there and enjoy your new life in your new home. It's already yours before you get there, but when you take possession of it, that is the consummation or completion of the Testament of death. The redemption of the promised possession or inheritance. Of course an imperfect analogy, but you get my point.

So yes, as scripture declares, we are ALREADY saved, and that salvation was ALREADY bought and ALREADY paid for in full for us, so that we have full right to the inheritance. But we still have to take bodily possession, and we wait for the redemption of that purchased possession. One does not contradict the other, one qualifies the other.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

The dead in Christ are those who are in Christ who have died. For example, those saints who have physically died but who now live and reign with Christ in heaven.

But that is not the same as reigning with Christ on earth AFTER the first physical resurrection that is shown in Rev. 20. Those souls in Christ who physically died are as Paul said asleep,

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

King James Version

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51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Or resting as Jesus says…

Revelation 6:9-11

King James Version

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9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled”

Then the dead in Christ rise first at the first resurrection…

Revelation 20:4-5

King James Version

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4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But Rev. 20 is not about Jesus being resurrected, it’s about the physically dead in Christ rising first at the last day.

It's about having part in the first resurrection and scripture says that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection. Is there more than one first resurrection?

The first resurrection:

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

How people have part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection) throughout the symbolic thousand years:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Regardless of whether you agree with me or not, it shouldn't be so hard for you to at least understand my view. But, you don't have a clue about what I actually believe as evidenced by the fact that you misrepresent what I believe all the time.

But being born again of the Holy Spirit is not the same as being physically resurrected at the last day at the last Trump.

Of course it's not. Do you think I'm claiming that? I'm not. How could anyone think that's the same thing?

Why can’t you understand that being born again spiritually is not the same as being physically resurrected at the last day?

When did I ever say it was? Why can't you make more than a very minimal effort to understand what I'm actually saying?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Again there are 2 resurrections mentioned there….

Daniel 12:2​

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King James Version​

​

​

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, (first resurrection) and some to shame and everlasting contempt.(second resurrection)

Not 1,000+ years apart! Again, Jesus said in John 5:28-29 that the HOUR is coming when all of the dead will be raised, with some being raised to eternal life and the rest to damnation. He didn't say the HOURS are coming when the dead will be raised as you believe. Why won't you address this point?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It doesn’t say ALL the dead are raised at the same time.

Notice 2 resurrections are mentioned there…

John 5:29​

​

King James Version​

​

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; (first resurrection) and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.(second resurrection)

If ALL the dead were raised at the same time Paul would not had said the dead in Christ rise FIRST. Those who are of the first physical resurrection are called blessed and holy and the second death has no power over them. So that excludes ALL those who are of the resurrection of damnation.

So the words of Jesus agree above with the words of Jesus in Rev. 20

Yes, it does say that! It says the HOUR (singular) is coming when ALL of the dead will be raised. Then He clarified that some will be raised to eternal life and some to damnation. You change it to say 2 HOURS (plural) are coming when the dead will be raised instead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But that is not the same as reigning with Christ on earth AFTER the first physical resurrection that is shown in Rev. 20. Those souls in Christ who physically died are as Paul said asleep,

1 Corinthians 15:51-52​

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King James Version​

​

​

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Or resting as Jesus says…

Revelation 6:9-11​

​

King James Version​

​

​

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled”

Okay, this may explain why you can't even understand amil, regardless of whether you agree with it or not. It seems that you believe in soul sleep based on what you said here? Or maybe you believe in soul rest if you believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are conscious in heaven while doing nothing but resting. Either way, it appears that you believe the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven doing nothing? If so, that would explain why you can't understand the concept of the souls of the dead in Christ reigning with Christ in heaven.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

It's about having part in the first resurrection and scripture says that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection.

That’s the problem right there, you Amils think Rev. 20’s “the first resurrection” is about Jesus being resurrected; which is why you also believe the thousand year reign of Christ on earth started way back then.

That is also why you cannot accept the thousand year reign of Christ on earth along with His physically resurrected saints on earth as being yet future, because you believe it has already been fulfilled.

That is a strong delusion you guys are under.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That’s the problem right there, you Amils think Rev. 20’s “the first resurrection” is about Jesus being resurrected; which is why you also believe the thousand year reign of Christ on earth started way back then.

It's certainly related to that. I use scripture to interpret scripture and I accept what scripture teaches, which is that Christ's resurrection itself was the first resurrection.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Do you deny what this verse teaches, which is also taught in 1 Corinthians 15:20?

Since the first resurrection itself was Jesus's resurrection then what does that tell us about what it means when it talks about people having part in the first resurrection? It tells me that it has to do with having part in Christ's resurrection in some way.

Do you deny that we have part in Christ's resurrection in a spiritual sense when we are born again/saved? Is that not what passages like the following indicate?

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

That is also why you cannot accept the thousand year reign of Christ on earth along with His physically resurrected saints on earth as being yet future, because you believe it has already been fulfilled.

Stop misrepresenting my view. Learn what we amils actually believe before trying to speak for us. Obviously, Christ's resurrection has already been fulfillled, but people being saved and having part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection) is an ongoing process and has not been fully fulfilled yet.

That is a strong delusion you guys are under.

Total nonsense. You have no idea of what you're talking about because you make very little effort to understand what amils believe. You think it's delusional to accept what scripture teaches that the first resurrection is? Believing that is a case of strong delusion on your part. There should be no question as to what the first resurrection itself is, if you believe what scripture teaches about that in Acts 26:23 and 1 Cor 15:20. The question then is what does it mean to have part in the first resurrection? How does that occur? That's where we disagree.

But, just think about what it says in the following verse.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Take your premil glasses off and really think about what this verse is saying. Ask the Holy Spirit to help you see it. In my view, this verse indicates that one MUST have part in the first resurrection in order for the second death to have no power over them. In that case, it can't be talking about the bodily resurrection of the dead because then those who are alive and remain when Christ comes, who do not die and will not be resurrected, would not avoid the second death. Think about that.

Is it not true that the second death has no power over Christians right now, including the dead in Christ as well? It is, right? What does that tell you about the timing of Revelation 20:6 when it says the second death has no power over those who have had part in the first resurrection? It's talking about something that is already true now! Think about it!

Also, it says that those who have part in the first resurrection "shall be priests of God and of Christ". Are we not priests of God and of Christ now? Scripture says we are.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

In my view, this verse indicates that one MUST have part in the first resurrection in order for the second death to have no power over them. In that case, it can't be talking about the bodily resurrection of the dead because then those who are alive and remain when Christ comes, who do not die and will not be resurrected, would not avoid the second death. Think about that.

I’m not arguing against being born again of the Spirit and passing from spiritual death to spiritual life. I am talking about Rev. 20 where ALL those who are in Christ are either raised from the dead, or are changed physically if living at the last day and are gathered together with all the host of heaven at that time.

This is not an event that takes place over thousands of years, but it happens in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye. It is the day of redemption…

Ephesians 1:10-14

King James Version

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10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

The Holy Spirit is like the down payment on the purchased possession until the final redemption of our physical bodies being changed. That final redemption comes when we are bodily resurrected, or changed if we are of those are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord.

Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body


Luke 21:28
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I’m not arguing against being born again of the Spirit and passing from spiritual death to spiritual life.

I'm not saying that you are. I'm just showing how I understand what having part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection) means and how it occurs.

Some other amils will say that the act of passing from spiritual death to spiritual life itself is the first resurrection, so my view is a bit different from that as I see that event as not being a resurrection (it's called being born again, so it's a spiritual birth), but rather as having part spiritually in the resurrection of Christ as passages like Colossians 2:12-13 and Ephesians 2:4-6 talk about. Since we do go from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ when we're born again/saved, I don't have a problem with how they see it and it's not a point of contention between us. I agree with those amils about how someone has part in the first resurrection, but since I see scripture teaching that Christ's resurrection itself is the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20), that's why I see it as I do.

I am talking about Rev. 20 where ALL those who are in Christ are either raised from the dead, or are changed physically if living at the last day and are gathered together with all the host of heaven at that time.

I am talking about Revelation 20 as well and using other scripture to help me interpret it.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Do you see in verse 4 where it talks about John seeing the souls of dead believers and then says "they lived and reigned with Christ"? That word "lived" there is translated from the Greek word "zao". That word means to be alive or to be in the cast of living one's life. It's not a word used to describe someone being resurrected. But, in the case of the rest of the dead living again after the thousand yeras, the word translated as "living...again" is "anazao" and that word does describe a resurrection. So, verse 4 is not describing the bodily resurrection of dead Christian martyrs, but rather is describing the souls of the dead in Christ living and reigning with Christ in heaven.

This is not an event that takes place over thousands of years, but it happens in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye. It is the day of redemption…

Ephesians 1:10-14​

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King James Version​

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10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

The Holy Spirit is like the down payment on the purchased possession until the final redemption of our physical bodies being changed. That final redemption comes when we are bodily resurrected, or changed if we are of those are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord.

Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body


Luke 21:28
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Just like you said that you are "not arguing against being born again of the Spirit and passing from spiritual death to spiritual life", I am not arguing against the future redemption of our bodies when Christ returns. Do you understand that? I have never said that just as you never said you were arguing against being born again of the Spirit and passing from spiritual death to spiritual life. So, can we try to keep these strawman arguments out of the discussion? It's not helpful.

You didn't really address what I said about Revelation 20:6. Do you believe that someone must have part in the first resurrection in order for the second death to have no power over them? That is what I believe that verse indicates and that lines up with my overall view.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Those souls in Christ who physically died are as Paul said asleep,

1 Corinthians 15:51-52​

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The verses are talking about Elect who will NOT sleep (physical death) when Christ return. They will be changed and meet with Christ and the dead in Christ in the air. The dead that shall be raised incorruptible are the ones who will come with Christ down to the air. Not physically resurrect from the graves as you think.

Or resting as Jesus says…

Revelation 6:9-11​

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled”

The souls of them are Elect. All of them who have part of the First Resurreciton so their souls will immediately go up into heaven the moment their flesh dies. They will cry to God how long before He will do something to avenge them. They and also us on Earth who see the abominations and the wickedness and the lawlessness in the church, they say, O How long will God let this wicked world go on. This is the prayer of the saints. It is always one of "eschewing evil" (As Brother Lot felt in the city of Sodom) and prayer to God for an end and deliverance from such. And deliverance from such is a prayer for judgment (whether we understand that or not).

Luke 18:7-8

• "And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
• I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

The prayers of the saints is always unto judgment, as they (being fallible and human) are always impatient, while God is longsuffering or patient, not willing that any of those whom He has chosen should perish. He waits years until all who are ordained to be saved, will be saved FIRST. Go read Revelation 7:1-4.

Moreover, we have our Biblical example of the prayers of the saints concerning this. And not surprising, it is one of impatience and longing for perfect Justice against those lawless adversaries on earth that corrupt the Church.

Revelation 6:10-11

• "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
• And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Please note that the white robes were given to the souls of the Saints under the altar BEFORE the Second Coming of Christ to Earth! God comforts the Dead in Christ who pray to him, and exhort patience. Because before God brings his wrath upon those men, all must be fulfilled concerning the elect. Thus we can understand how God then symbolizes when the time is right, according to His will, He does bring judgment avenging His elect who have been crying to Him because of their suffering for the sake of bringing the Word of God faithfully.

Revelation 8:3-4

• "And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
• And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."

Christ is the High Priest of heaven who offers the incense with the prayers of the saints (making their imperfect prayers righteous), and that incense ascended up to God wherein He takes action to bring judgment to avenge them.

Even so Lord, Come!

Then the dead in Christ rise first at the first resurrection…

No no no. There will be no "first physical resurrection" of the Saints at the Second Coming. The dead in Christ are those who ALREADY took part of the First Resurrection in Christ. That is when their spirit has been regenerated WHILE they were on Earth before they physically dead! It is the BORN AGAIN! They already had the resurrection inward! So if their flesh bodies die, their regenerated spirit will go up to heaven to be with Christ. Those who are STILL ALIVE on Earth, they already have regenerated spirit within them when they were born again. So if they will still be alive and remain on the last day when Christ return, their flesh body will be CHANGED so that their regenerated spirit will be able to go up into the air to meet with the Lord Christ Jesus AND the dead in christ coming with Him. Selah!

Revelation 20:4-5​

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4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

Again, the souls are those who have physically dead and are currently in heaven and reign with Christ just as we who are still alive on Earth today, are reigning with Christ practicing the Gospel. The millennial kingdom is the New Testament congregation of Israel, the Church. The rest of the dead are those who have not yet being saved or born again. When their flesh bodies dies, their UNREGENERATED spirit will REMAIN in the grave in silence until being called by God to resurrect (second resurrection) to stand for judgment to face Second Death that those with First Resurrection will not have to worry about that. Remember, they were already given white robes before the Second Coming. Don't forget that!

 

[ewq1938]

Again there are 2 resurrections mentioned there….

Daniel 12:2​

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King James Version​

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2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, (first resurrection) and some to shame and everlasting contempt.(second resurrection)

a list of all verses about the two future resurrections:

Revelation 20 speaks of two groups of the dead that resurrect/live again.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of this first group of the dead because they resurrect first. The rest of the dead have to wait for their resurrection:

"the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev 20:5)

This is the last resurrection of those who are dead. One group resurrected and "the rest" or the remaining ones did not resurrect when the others did.

This proves they partake of the second resurrection also known as the last resurrection because no one is still physically dead after they "live again". This also proves without a doubt that there are two separate days of resurrection separated by a thousand years and how long that actually is doesn't matter.

Part of the dead resurrect and then "the rest of the dead" will resurrect after a period of time. That's the dead resurrecting in two parts separated by a period of time.


The first group resurrects before the thousand years begins and the second/last group resurrects after the end of the thousand years.



Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

First group resurrection: "to everlasting life"
Second group resurrection: "to shame and everlasting contempt"


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"


Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

First group resurrection: "the just"
Second group resurrection: the "unjust"

Take note that in every passage where the resurrection of the saved and unsaved are mentioned that the saved or just is always mentioned first. That's important because it is they that resurrect first! Scripture never deviates in this order. Revelation, John, Daniel and Acts all say the saved first, then the unsaved in that exact order.


Luk 14:12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.
Luk 14:13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

He did not say the resurrection of the just and unjust. He said only the just. Again, this is evidence of two separate resurrections. The resurrection of the just is only of the just, no one else.

What we learn from these verses is that there are two resurrections. One resurrection is to life and the other resurrection is to damnation and contempt. Two resurrections! Never is there a single resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous at the same time.



We also see here that the saved/righteous are resurrected first, and at some time later the unsaved are resurrected and judged.

What these verses do not tell us is how much time is inbetween the two. For that we have to go to Revelation 20 where Christ tells John there is a thousand years inbetween. "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished". There we have the dead separated into two groups. One who are saved and will be resurrected and judged first, like Dan 12:2 and Joh 5:29 show, and the other group that has to wait until the thousand years are finished before they are resurrected and judged.




This is Premill through and through.

 

[Davy]

It doesn’t say ALL the dead are raised at the same time.

Notice 2 resurrections are mentioned there…

John 5:29​

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King James Version​

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29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; (first resurrection) and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.(second resurrection)

If ALL the dead were raised at the same time Paul would not had said the dead in Christ rise FIRST. Those who are of the first physical resurrection are called blessed and holy and the second death has no power over them. So that excludes ALL those who are of the resurrection of damnation.

So the words of Jesus agree above with the words of Jesus in Rev. 20

Why did you omit the 28th verse?...

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV