Not ALL the physically dead are raised at the same time, the dead in Christ rise FIRST.

[Davidpt]

Exactly. Premils do not look at Revelation 20:6 carefully. They don't recognize that having part in the first resurrection is required in order to avoid the second death.

And it's not a bodily resurrection that makes it so that we avoid the second death. If that was the case, then those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord wouldn't avoid the second death because they would not have part in the first resurrection in that case.

They don't think about the fact that the second death has no power over those who have spiritually had part in Christ's resurrection, which scripture says is the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20), and are saved. So, the souls of the dead in Christ that John saw in heaven already had part in the first resurrection before he sees them. The second death already had no power over them. Also, they are already priests of God and of Christ (Rev 1:5-6). So, Revelation 20:6 is talking about a current reality, not a future event.

Then if we toss NOSAS into the mix, what then? One can be blessed and holy one minute, have part in the first resurrection one minute where death has no power over them, then the next minute they are no longer blessed and holy somehow, the next minute they no longer have part in the first resurrection somehow, and somehow now the 2nd death has power over them, therefore, making everything John said in Revelation 20:6 untrue? There are no conditions attached to that verse making it possible to lose part in the first resurrection after having part in it. It means what it says. It means that every single person that has part in the first resurrection, the 2nd death has no power over them. The 2nd death involves everlasting death. The first resurrection involves everlasting life.

Your doctrine of Amil, maybe not Roger's doctrine of Amil, implies that some who have part in the first resurrection are going to get cast into the LOF. Thus making John a liar in Revelation 20:6 since he plainly said that everyone who has part in the first resurrection, the 2nd death has no power over them. Meaning it is impossible any of them can be cast into the LOF instead. Obviously, the 2nd death having no power over someone can't be the same thing as the 2nd death having power over someone.

What did John plainly say in Revelation 20:6?

Those who have part in the first resurrection, the 2nd death has no power over any of them.

Or did he say this instead?

Those who have part in the first resurrection, the 2nd death has power over some of them.

Anyone being honest with the text is not going to remotely choose the latter.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then if we toss NOSAS into the mix, what then? One can be blessed and holy one minute, have part in the first resurrection one minute where death has no power over them, then the next minute they are no longer blessed and holy somehow, the next minute they no longer have part in the first resurrection somehow, and somehow now the 2nd death has power over them, therefore, making everything John said in Revelation 20:6 untrue?

There are no conditions attached to that verse making it possible to lose part in the first resurrection after having part in it. It means what it says. It means that every single person that has part in the first resurrection, the 2nd death has no power over them. The 2nd death involves everlasting death. The first resurrection involves everlasting life.

Your doctrine of Amil, maybe not Roger's doctrine of Amil, implies that some who have part in the first resurrection are going to get cast into the LOF. Thus making John a liar in Revelation 20:6 since he plainly said that everyone who has part in the first resurrection, the 2nd death has no power over them. Meaning it is impossible any of them can be cast into the LOF instead. Obviously, the 2nd death having no power over someone can't be the same thing as the 2nd death having power over someone.

What did John plainly say in Revelation 20:6?

Those who have part in the first resurrection, the 2nd death has no power over any of them.

Or did he say this instead?

Those who have part in the first resurrection, the 2nd death has power over some of them.

Anyone being honest with the text is not going to remotely choose the latter.

Here we go again with this ridiculous nonsense.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Using the kind of logic you're using regarding Revelation 20:6, are the following valid questions to ask you about John 3:16?

What did Jesus plainly say in John 3:16?

All of those who believe in Jesus will not perish and have everlasting life.

Or did he say this instead?

Some of those who believe in Jesus will not perish and have everlasting life and some who believe in Jesus will perish and not have everlasting life.


I don't see any conditions mentioned in John 3:16, so, using the same kind of logic you're using to interpret Revelation 20:6, you'd have to conclude that all who believe in Jesus will not perish and will have everlasting life. Yet, you don't believe that. So, why aren't you consistent with your approach to interpreting scripture? I have noticed for a long time your lack of consistency in your approach to scripture and have pointed it out many times, but you never acknowledge it.

 

[David in NJ]

It was taught to me that, upon death, people are immediately judged by Jesus. Is that teaching correct?

It's also been taught to me that faithful followers of Christ never die and, upon death, immediately go into Heaven. Again, is that teaching correct?

Thanks.

We have already been Judged by God = Genesis chapter 3 , Romans ch3 , John 3: 16-20

After death is immediate Judgement as in John 3:16-20

Then the FINAL Judgment of the Great White Throne = Revelation chapter 20

 

[rwb]

Roger, IMO you are not dealing with the point I was raising. My point had to do with this---and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth--and how the past 2000 years are describing this.

For example. In the NT, where execute and judgment are used in the same sentence, it is found in the following two passages.

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Anyone reading those two passages and sticking to the context is not going to apply those passages to His first advent. It is obvious per the context that it is involving His 2nd advent.

How can the prophecies involve things that shall come to pass when Christ comes again since Christ shall come again when the last trumpet sounds that time given this earth whereby man MUST be saved shall be no longer?

Are you really unaware of how Christ' coming to earth a man brings both judgment and justice to all mankind?

John 9:39 (KJV) And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

2 Corinthians 2:15-16 (KJV) For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

2 Corinthians 2:14-17 (KJV) Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

 

[David in NJ]

How can the prophecies involve things that shall come to pass when Christ comes again since Christ shall come again when the last trumpet sounds that time given this earth whereby man MUST be saved shall be no longer?

Are you really unaware of how Christ' coming to earth a man brings both judgment and justice to all mankind?

John 9:39 (KJV) And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

2 Corinthians 2:15-16 (KJV) For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

2 Corinthians 2:14-17 (KJV) Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

All the Scriptures you posted here is 100% TRUTH and is CURRENT = Now = Today, if you hear His Voice = AMEN

Brother @Davidpt posted 100% TRUTH as well in his Post #479 which is the only post i am referencing of his.

The First Coming of Christ was to Bring Salvation to the world AND at the same Time to also Judge the Ruler of this world and upon those who were corrupting the Temple, the Law and the Holy Scriptures of Truth.

The Second Coming of Christ is to FIRST Resurrect those who died in Him whereby the Graves will Open and ONLY the JUST will Rise and be Transformed = Matthew 22:29-33 , 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 , 1 Corinthians chapter 15 , 1 John 3:1-3 , Hebrews 9:23-28
AFTER the Resurrection is the Rapture of "alive remaining saints on earth".
AFTER this is Completed, His Wrath is poured out upon those who received the Mark of the Beast.

 

[rwb]

The Second Coming of Christ is to FIRST Resurrect those who died in Him whereby the Graves will Open and ONLY the JUST will Rise and be Transformed = Matthew 22:29-33 , 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 , 1 Corinthians chapter 15 , 1 John 3:1-3 , Hebrews 9:23-28
AFTER the Resurrection is the Rapture of "alive remaining saints on earth".
AFTER this is Completed, His Wrath is poured out upon those who received the Mark of the Beast.

NONE, but Christ, shall rise from the grave immortal before the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds, when time shall be no longer.
1Cor 15:51-58; Jo 5:28-29; Rev 10:5-7.

The resurrection on the last day in the hour coming that Christ has come again is of ALL who are in the graves, both those who have done good and those who have done evil. Those resurrected from the graves in the hour coming on the last day, when time shall be no longer, shall be raised immortal & incorruptible. And together with the resurrected dead who have done good shall be those who have done good who are still alive at Christ's second coming changed to immortality and incorruptibility.

After this the resurrected dead (which shall include ALL who remain in unbelief) will be called to stand before God at the GWTJ to be judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life. Rev 20:11-15

 

[David in NJ]

NONE, but Christ, shall rise from the grave immortal before the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds, when time shall be no longer.
1Cor 15:51-58; Jo 5:28-29; Rev 10:5-7.

The resurrection on the last day in the hour coming that Christ has come again is of ALL who are in the graves, both those who have done good and those who have done evil. Those resurrected from the graves in the hour coming on the last day, when time shall be no longer, shall be raised immortal & incorruptible. And together with the resurrected dead who have done good shall be those who have done good who are still alive at Christ's second coming changed to immortality and incorruptibility.

After this the resurrected dead (which shall include ALL who remain in unbelief) will be called to stand before God at the GWTJ to be judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life. Rev 20:11-15

Only those who died in Christ are Resurrected at His Second Coming.

This is the FIRST Resurrection = Rev 2:11 , Rev 10:7 and Rev 20:1-4

SHALOM @rwb

 

[rwb]

Only those who died in Christ are Resurrected at His Second Coming.

This is the FIRST Resurrection = Rev 2:11 , Rev 10:7 and Rev 20:1-4

SHALOM @rwb

Nope! ALL who are in the graves shall be resurrected in the hour coming, when the last trumpet sounds and time given this earth whereby man must be saved shall be no longer.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There will be NONE, except Christ Jesus, resurrected immortal until the last trumpet sounds.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ that man MUST have part in to overcome the second death!

 

[David in NJ]

Nope! ALL who are in the graves shall be resurrected in the hour coming, when the last trumpet sounds and time given this earth whereby man must be saved shall be no longer.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There will be NONE, except Christ Jesus, resurrected immortal until the last trumpet sounds.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ that man MUST have part in to overcome the second death!

You will only find the Just being part of the First Resurrection.

You do not understand how the LORD speaks when HE speaks Prophetically.

HE can say, in one sentence, TWO distinct prophetic occurrences as though they happen at the same time.

Otherwise you have the LORD speaking falsehood - which is impossible, therefore we MUST adjust our understanding to His words.

You also do not accept the literal 1,000 Years that will Begin at His Second Coming which was spoken of in Genesis and Revelation.

No need to get angry at me as we are Brethren under the Precious Blood of Christ.

 

[David in NJ]

The first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ that man MUST have part in to overcome the second death!

The first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ that man MUST have part in to overcome the second death!

ABSOLUTELY TRUE = 100% PURE TRUTH

 

[rwb]

You will only find the Just being part of the First Resurrection.

You do not understand how the LORD speaks when HE speaks Prophetically.

HE can say, in one sentence, TWO distinct prophetic occurrences as though they happen at the same time.

Otherwise you have the LORD speaking falsehood - which is impossible, therefore we MUST adjust our understanding to His words.

You also do not accept the literal 1,000 Years that will Begin at His Second Coming which was spoken of in Genesis and Revelation.

No need to get angry at me as we are Brethren under the Precious Blood of Christ.

Angry? Why would I be angry when one posts unbiblical opinions? Giving your opinions without supporting Scripture is simply that, YOUR unbiblical OPINIONS, and meaningless to me. That doesn't mean I'm angry! Why would I be? I have blessed assurance that the doctrines I espouse are truth!

 

[rwb]

You will only find the Just being part of the First Resurrection.

This part of your reply is valid. The reason that only those justified IN Christ have part in the first resurrection is because the first resurrection is not of saints being bodily resurrected to life again but is the saints having part in the resurrection of Christ alone through faith! Because He alone is the "first resurrection" man must have part in to overcome the second death! For He is the One and Only way, the truth and the life everlasting.

 

[David in NJ]

This part of your reply is valid. The reason that only those justified IN Christ have part in the first resurrection is because the first resurrection is not of saints being bodily resurrected to life again but is the saints having part in the resurrection of Christ alone through faith! Because He alone is the "first resurrection" man must have part in to overcome the second death! For He is the One and Only way, the truth and the life everlasting.

YES, Christ is the First Resurrection = 100% TRUTH

Keep reading the WHOLE Bible - Genesis to Revelation

and do it with prayer - each and every time

abandon yourself to Christ when you do and let Him show you what you are missing

SHALOM

 

[CadyandZoe]

Wrong! Why do you blatantly butcher scripture to make it say what you want it to say?

I have reasons for what I say, which you blatantly and emphatically said you refuse to hear.

You say he failed to do what the angel said he would do. You make it as though the angel of the Lord did not know what he was talking about. But, he did. John did do what the angel said he would do.

Your mock explanation is not the most likely one. The angel certainly knew what John's mission would be. Even so, all John could do is put on uncomfortable clothing, eat unusual food, camp outside of town, and preach his message. It was up to the people to respond to John or not. Some followed John and become his disciples. He turned some of the children to their fathers. But he failed to turn the fathers to the children.

Mark 1:4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

John baptized many people, so he did indeed "bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God" and "turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.” as the angel said he would do and as you falsely deny that he did.

John did, indeed, go as the forerunner to the Messiah and increase the people's anticipation of his coming. And he did, indeed, preach and baptize the people. But he was not able to turn the Fathers back to the children, and by "fathers" it doesn't mean "parents" as you suggest. It refers to the elders and the chief priests. How do I know this?

Mark 9:11-13
They asked Him, saying, “Why is it that the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” And He said to them, “Elijah does first come and restore all things. And yet how is it written of the Son of Man that He will suffer many things and be treated with contempt? But I say to you that Elijah has indeed come, and they did to him whatever they wished, just as it is written of him.”

Don't let Jesus' parallel escape your notice. Just like the Son of Man will suffer many things and be treated with contempt, the same thing will happen to John. And Jesus was correct. John was arrested, put into prison and put to death. Although his mission was to turn the fathers to the children, he was unsuccessful and he paid the ultimate price for his attempt.

From this we learn that the fulfillment of Malachi 4 must wait until the Second Coming of Christ.

What are you talking about? Luke 1:17 is clearly a reference to Malachi 4:5-6.

It seems clear to me that the angel intends to announce that John and Elijah will share the same mission. When it is said that John will come in the "spirit and power" of Elijah, it means that John is not Elijah himself. If John is not Elijah, then he does not fulfill the prophecy in Malachi 4. Instead, it is Elijah himself who will fulfill that prophecy.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

The only resurrection that shall keep man from the second death is the resurrection of Christ alone!

So you think only Jesus alone is the first resurrection. Wrong

The only resurrection from mortal to immortal before that time, is of Christ ALONE!

Again this proves Amils believe only Jesus alone is the first resurrection. Wrong

 

[CadyandZoe]

Exactly. Premils do not look at Revelation 20:6 carefully. They don't recognize that having part in the first resurrection is required in order to avoid the second death.

On the contrary, both Amil and Premil agree that participation in Jesus' resurrection is required to avoid the second death. We don't think Revelation 20 is making that point; it is making a different point. We take Paul at his word that Jesus' followers will rise to be with the Lord and return with him to the earth to rule with him.

Revelation 20:4

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them.​

What did John see?

Matthew 19:28

And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

You can't miss it.

When have the apostles sat on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes?

 

[rwb]

So you think only Jesus alone is the first resurrection. Wrong

Again this proves Amils believe only Jesus alone is the first resurrection. Wrong

No, I don't THINK Jesus alone is the first resurrection! I KNOW Jesus ALONE is the "first resurrection"! And one MUST have part in His resurrection before we breathe our last to overcome the second death!

Again, you prove you have nothing but unbiblical OPINIONS regarding the "first resurrection" to immortal life! You THINK some will be bodily resurrected to life again, even though the Bible tells us that NONE, except Christ, shall be raised to physical immortal & incorruptible life before the hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds that time to be saved given mankind shall be no longer. Why do you THINK this? Because you have NO understanding of WHO the "first resurrection" is.

 

[rwb]

YES, Christ is the First Resurrection = 100% TRUTH

Keep reading the WHOLE Bible - Genesis to Revelation

and do it with prayer - each and every time

abandon yourself to Christ when you do and let Him show you what you are missing

SHALOM

Instead of advising others to read the WHOLE Bible, why don't you try reading the WHOLE Bible without forcing contradiction into the Word of God? And of course, do it with prayer - each and every time! Then perhaps you can abandon yourself to Christ when you allow His Word to be one cohesive WHOLE instead of reading your OPINIONS into the Sacred Text and causing much confusion! Perhaps then you will begin to understand what YOU are missing!

Peace to you also!

 

[David in NJ]

Instead of advising others to read the WHOLE Bible, why don't you try reading the WHOLE Bible without forcing contradiction into the Word of God? And of course, do it with prayer - each and every time! Then perhaps you can abandon yourself to Christ when you allow His Word to be one cohesive WHOLE instead of reading your OPINIONS into the Sacred Text and causing much confusion! Perhaps then you will begin to understand what YOU are missing!

Peace to you also!

Instead of advising others to read the WHOLE Bible

BEST Advice you have heard so far!!!

why don't you try reading the WHOLE Bible

GREAT advice which i do everyday = i open the WHOLE Bible from Genesis to Revelation with my eyes, my heart, mind, soul and spirit.

forcing contradiction into the Word of God?

Right now this is what you are doing........WHY???

And of course, do it with prayer - each and every time!

Me too!

perhaps you can abandon yourself to Christ when you allow His Word to be one cohesive WHOLE

i DO everytime........so WHY do you reject your own advice???

reading your OPINIONS into the Sacred Text and causing much confusion!

Amil and all the denominations do this = not me!!!

Perhaps then you will begin to understand what YOU are missing!

As long as you deny the TRUTH your understanding will be diluted by false doctrine such as:
Directly denying the words of Christ by saying: "there is no literal 1,000 Years"

Question: Do you also deny the literal Resurrection at His Second Coming???

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you think only Jesus alone is the first resurrection. Wrong

Again this proves Amils believe only Jesus alone is the first resurrection. Wrong

This proves that you are clueless about what Amils believe, as you've proven many times before already. You're not even trying to understand. When it comes to having part in the first resurrection, we don't say that Jesus alone has part in it. Scripture explicitly teaches that His resurrection was the first resurrection. You can't even bring yourself to acknowledge that fact.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

But, what we Amils say is that we all spiritually have part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection) when we are born again/saved. So, passages like the following show how someone has part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection):

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;