No Law : Under Grace

[gpresdo]

NO NEED for a "broader context" PUSHED into the Romans 3:25 verse. Paul meant exactly what he said, "for the remission of sins that are PAST".

That means all sins prior to our first belief and baptism on Jesus Christ.

Future sins still need to be repented of to Jesus Christ, asking Him forgiveness, in order to STAY in the WALK with Him. This is actually one of the reasons for Communion time with Jesus, working our problems out with Him and remembering what He did on His cross for us.

You are right and so important....further validated by the Lord's prayer....forgive us of our trespasses as we forgive our trespassers.....a daily prayer urging. Because He knew even the repented would also need future forgiveness.

Thank you Jesus!!!

 

[GracePeace]

-
The law/commandments define transgression..

In other words, If there was no law or commandment that said....>"tho shalt not murder"< then if you murdered, there is nothing to define it as murder.

"where there is NO LAW.....there is NO SIN.. no Transgression"... = There is no LAW that defines that deed as a sin.

Romans 5
12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mene because all sinned— 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam...

1. No, even without the Law, sin was in the world, it's just that sin without Law is not transgression (sinning with knowledge--eg, Adam, and all those who sinned under Law after Sinai).
2. How is it relevant that "sin is not imputed when there is no Law" when death was still the result--ie, if death can still result from sin for those not under Law today (Ro 8:12,13)?

 

[Ritajanice]

In its full context.​

​

Romans 5:1–21​

English Standard Version ​

Peace with God Through Faith
5 aTherefore, since we have been justified by faith, bwe1 have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also cobtained access by faith2 into this grace din which we stand, and ewe3rejoice4 in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we frejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering gproduces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hhope does not put us to shame, because God’s love ihas been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
6 For jwhile we were still weak, at the right time kChrist died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but lGod shows his love for us in that mwhile we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, nwe have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from othe wrath of God. 10 For if pwhile we were enemies qwe were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by rhis life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received sreconciliation.
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as tsin came into the world through one man, and udeath through sin, and vso death spread to all men5 because wall sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but xsin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not ylike the transgression of Adam, zwho was a type of athe one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for bmany. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For cthe judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought djustification. 17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness ereign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass6 led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness7 leads to justification and life for fall men. 19 For as by the one man’s gdisobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s hobedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now ithe law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, jgrace abounded all the more, 21 so that, kas sin reigned in death, lgrace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[GracePeace]

The Law both reveals sin and empowers the flesh to sin more.

This is the "curse of the Law". as "the power of sin is the Law" "The law is the power of sin".

"Jesus came to redeem (the born again) from the curse of the Law".

How?

By Himself fulfilling it, in our place, which removes it from the BELIEVER born again.

And, as Jesus is our New Covenant, Blood Atonement = Righteousness, this means that once we are born again, "in Christ"..... we now exist, apart from the Law, as "the righteousness of God, in Christ".

This is = "not under the law, but under Grace".

"Under Grace' is the Eternal LIFE state of every born again believer.

A.) CHRISTIANity, is completely SPIRITUAL......

Its all about being born again, and walking in THE SPIRIT, and that is not done with the natural mind, or by willpower.

See, we are born again INTO God and Christ.........as "one with God" and 'in Christ".

So, they are the Kingdom of God.......itself.....as its a spiritual kingdom, as we are BORN.....AGAIN.....= Spiritually, by the Holy Spirit, into God Himself,... = "God is A Spirit".

So, we become a 'new Creation", .. having been "translated from Darkness, to LIGHT">

See that Light? ?????

That is this...

"God exists IN LIGHT"

"Jesus is the LIGHT OF THE WORLD"..

The Born again, are "Children....OF.....THE.....Light".

This LIGHT is the KOG. Its the Spiritual Kingdom of LIGHT< vs the Devil's kingdom that is spiritual darkness.

That is what it means to be : BORN .. AGAIN.... = "under Grace", ... "In Christ"....>"one with God".....having become "the righteousness of God, in Christ".

Not sure if you're aware, but that guy, "Arthur", is a radical "pro-LGBT" "Christian", so he's likely reading what you're saying in a completely different way than you're intending it. He's probably thinking, "Here is the proof that we can commit abominations--we're not under Law!"

 

[Behold]

2. How is it relevant that "sin is not imputed when there is no Law" when death was still the result-

Christianity is all Spiritual.

So, the "body", isn't. Its flesh and blood and bone...etc, etc.

The Effect of Adam's sin, was to spiritually separate Adam's spirit from spiritual union with God.
This fall of Adam, is the fall of us all.
2nd Adam, who is JESUS< came to restore spiritual union between man and God.
How?

A.) The Cross of Christ, is where God pays for the sin of world, one believer at a time.

And once that has happened... once the believer is "made free from sin" then God birth's their spirit back into HIS OWN....

"God is A Spirit", and Christians are born again : Spiritually.

= Born.........again.
=Jesus said..>"YOU must be .....born.......again".....and that is "by my Spirit, sayeth the Lord".....and not by Water.

So, this is the restoration between God and Man, that is Spiritual union.

our Body "is dead because of sin" and so the Born again.. get a NEW BODY that is designed for their born again Spirit and it will never die.

 

[GracePeace]

Christianity is all Spiritual.

So, the "body", isn't. Its flesh and blood and made from dirt.

The Effect of Adam's sin, was to spiritually separate Adam's spirit from spiritual union with God.
2nd Adam, who is JESUS< came to restore spiritual union between man and God.
How?

The Cross of Christ, is where God pays for the sin of world, one believer at a time.

And once that has happened... once the believer is "made free from sin" then God births their spirit back into HIS OWN....

= Born.........again.
Jesus said..>"YOU must be .....born.......again".....and that is "by my Spirit, sayeth the Lord".....and not by Water.

So, this is the restoration between God and Man, that is Spiritual union.

our Body "is dead because of sin" and so the Born again.. get a NEW BODY that is designed for their born again Spirit and it will never die.

So, how is it relevant that sin is not counted when there is no Law if death still reigned, which would have implications for Christians (who are not under Law), which is exactly what Paul says Romans 8:12,13?

You seem unacquainted with the material.

 

[Behold]

So, how is it relevant that sin is not counted when there is no Law

Sin is counted against JESUS, regarding the CHRISTian.

"God hath made JESUS.......to be SIN......for us"...

"US" = The Believers born again.

Thats what the CROSS is all about., its the Eternal OFFER to deal with SIN.... everyones.

"Jesus is the ONE TIME.... ETERNAL SACRIFICE.....for sin"...

Also...

= 2 Corinthians 5:19

= John 3:17

if death still reigned,

You are regarding death, not God.

So, the death of the body, is irrelevant.......as all the body is, is the earth suit. Its the container that contains what God "saves".

The born again CHRISTian, is not their body.

 

[GracePeace]

Sin is counted against JESUS, regarding the CHRISTian.

Thats what the CROSS is all about.



You are regarding death, not God.

So, the death of the body, is irrelevant.......as all the body is, is the earth suit. Its the container that contains what God "saves".

The born again CHRISTian, is not their body.

Romans 8:12,13 says if the Christian walks after the flesh, they will die and not live.

The passage doesn't say their sins will be imputed to Christ if they sin, it says they will be condemned and they will die--not just referring to physical death, either (that would mean every Christian in history walked after the flesh and physically died as a result), but loss of spiritual life.

 

[GracePeace]

You are regarding death, not God.

I will regard topics raised by God.

 

[Behold]

Romans 8:12,13 says if the Christian walks after the flesh, they will die and not live.

Only the body dies..
just the container.

The Real YOU.... @GracePeace , is not your body.......>Its the spirit in the- /body/-, and that spirit will depart from your dead body, and go to Heaven or Hell.

You get to choose, for as long as you are not found by this verse....... Hebrews 9:27

God says...>"come to ME.....come to HEAVEN... come to JESUS"......and "whosoever will believe" God will take and SAVE.

SALVATiON, is the rejoining of our spirit to God's......not our body, as our body "is dead because of sin", and will go to the grave or to be cremated.

Jesus said..>"I am THE WAY to the Father, and no person comes to the Father, but by ME"..

"ME" = Is the Cross of Christ, where God and Man may be rejoined as "Grace through Faith"........

A.} "ALL that call on the name of Jesus, shall be saved".

 

[GracePeace]

Only the body dies..
just the container.

So, according to you, every Christian in history walked after the flesh, not after the spirit, proven by the fact that they physically died, right?

 

[Brakelite]

I have contributed to threads like this before, my view hasn't changed.
The death of Christ on Calvary did absolutely affect the law, but not that part of the law that identifies sin. It was that part of the law that dealt with how to deal with sin and guilt after the fact. That is, everything that was previously connected to the sanctuary. The feast days, the priesthood, the sacrifices etc.
The purpose of the cross was to deal with the sin problem through the blood of the Lamb. Christ did not come to change the basic laws of God that reveal righteousness and character.

 

[GracePeace]

I have contributed to threads like this before, my view hasn't changed.
The death of Christ on Calvary did absolutely affect the law, but not that part of the law that identifies sin. It was that part of the law that dealt with how to deal with sin and guilt after the fact. That is, everything that was previously connected to the sanctuary. The feast days, the priesthood, the sacrifices etc.
The purpose of the cross was to deal with the sin problem through the blood of the Lamb. Christ did not come to change the basic laws of God that reveal righteousness and character.

Knowing good and evil isn't how men were created to operate; knowing the glory of God was always the way men were meant to operate.

"God Is Our Righteousness" (Jer 23:6) means "apart from the Law".

The Law is good if it is used lawfully--to condemn sinners, not for those righteous by knowing God's glory (1 Ti 1:9).

 

[Brakelite]

Knowing good and evil isn't how men were created to operate; knowing the glory of God was always the way men were meant to operate.

"God Is Our Righteousness" (Jer 23:6) means "apart from the Law".

The Law is good if it is used lawfully--to condemn sinners, not for those righteous by knowing God's glory (1 Ti 1:9).

When Satan was chatting with Eve in the garden, saying, "thou shalt not surely die", what was he telling her? He was saying, "you will live even though you disobey". That is precisely the false gospel that the majority of evangelical Christians have been deceived by. You can be saved while sinning. And that is what you are effectively preaching above. It's a lie from Satan.
Imputed righteousness does not fulfil the law while you are still sinning. Repentance is not feeling sorry for your sin, but continuing to offend. Jesus came to deal with the sin problem. There was never any problem with the law, so He didn't come to deal with any law problem. He came to heal mankind from the slavery of sin. He didn't do that by removing the only thing that identified what sin is. The law. The law is holy, just, and good. It's good because it identifies sin, that's a good thing. We need that. Even as Christians. The law is the standard in the judgement.
When we stand before Christ in the judgement, it will accomplish us nothing by defending our poor record on the basis that "it's okay Lord, you removed the law so my sin is no longer an offence to you, therefore can I go to heaven please?"

 

[GracePeace]

When Satan was chatting with Eve in the garden, saying, "thou shalt not surely die", what was he telling her? He was saying, "you will live even though you disobey". That is precisely the false gospel that the majority of evangelical Christians have been deceived by. You can be saved while sinning. And that is what you are effectively preaching above. It's a lie from Satan.
Imputed righteousness does not fulfil the law while you are still sinning. Repentance is not feeling sorry for your sin, but continuing to offend. Jesus came to deal with the sin problem. There was never any problem with the law, so He didn't come to deal with any law problem. He came to heal mankind from the slavery of sin. He didn't do that by removing the only thing that identified what sin is. The law. The law is holy, just, and good. It's good because it identifies sin, that's a good thing. We need that. Even as Christians. The law is the standard in the judgement.
When we stand before Christ in the judgement, it will accomplish us nothing by defending our poor record on the basis that "it's okay Lord, you removed the law so my sin is no longer an offence to you, therefore can I go to heaven please?"

The Law was not made for righteous people (1 Ti 1:9).

The Law is the strength of sin (1 Co 15).

The Law is good and holy and just (mostly--though Christ faults the Law, overruling it in Mt 5, on vows, for instance, and, again, in Mt 19, on divorce), but men were not made that way, they were made to have God as their righteousness--and when they have God as their righteousness, they are deemed "doers of the Law" (Ro 2:6-16, 26, 27; 3:31, 8:4, 13:8-10).

Your instinct to warn people that the unrighteous do not inherit God's Kingdom is correct (1 Co 6, 10), but the means you put forth is a mistake.

 

[Brakelite]

Your instinct to warn people that the unrighteous do not inherit God's Kingdom is correct (1 Co 6, 10), but the means you put forth is a mistake.

I don't think I spoke of the means by which people are saved, if that's what you are referring to. We are saved by grace through faith, absolutely. What does grace look like? Is it a cloak that covers iniquity and sin so it cannot be seen? Or is grace the power of God granted to those who believe that they can overcome sin through receiving the righteousness of Christ? We receive the righteousness of Christ through receiving Him. The robe of Christ's righteousness was woven in heaven, and doesn't have one stitch of human intellect or reasoning or devising in it. The perfect character that Christ displayed in His humanity while on earth, He offers to impart to each and every one of us. Our own righteousness is worthless. We need His. And it's offered as a gift. It's real. It changes lives. It isn't just an accounting record in heaven that contradicts our actual behaviour. It is through the very real righteousness of Christ in us, the hope of glory, that makes us doers of the law. Not just seen as doers, not just regarded as doers, but actual obedient keepers of God's commandments. That's grace. That's when the law has no power over us.

 

[GracePeace]

I don't think I spoke of the means by which people are saved, if that's what you are referring to. We are saved by grace through faith, absolutely. What does grace look like? Is it a cloak that covers iniquity and sin so it cannot be seen? Or is grace the power of God granted to those who believe that they

Sorry, it sounded like you were disagreeing with the idea that knowing God was the means of righteousness, not the Law.

 

[Brakelite]

Sorry, it sounded like you were disagreeing with the idea that knowing God was the means of righteousness, not the Law.

KJV Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

KJV Romans 6:12-14
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The not so well kept secret of how to obey... Not well kept secret because it's right there in the scriptures, yet so many choose to ignore it ..
KJV Romans 6:15-16
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

That right there is the answer. Surrender. Let God do His will in our lives, and that will is that we do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with Him, displaying the righteousness of Christ to everyone, believing and trusting in the power of God to accomplish it.

 

[GracePeace]

KJV Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

KJV Romans 6:12-14
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The not so well kept secret of how to obey... Not well kept secret because it's right there in the scriptures, yet so many choose to ignore it ..
KJV Romans 6:15-16
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

That right there is the answer. Surrender. Let God do His will in our lives, and that will is that we do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with Him, displaying the righteousness of Christ to everyone, believing and trusting in the power of God to accomplish it.

Yup.

The Title of the thread is "No Law : Under Grace".

My responses were in that context, agreeing we're not under Law but under Grace as the means of righteousness.

I said we are to be righteous, but it's not by the Law, but by Grace.

It seemed you disagreed with that. Did I misunderstand you? Did you agree?

 

[Brakelite]

Yup.

The Title of the thread is "No Law : Under Grace".

My responses were in that context, agreeing we're not under Law but under Grace as the means of righteousness.

I said we are to be righteous, but it's not by the Law, but by Grace.

It seemed you disagreed with that. Did I misunderstand you? Did you agree?

I think the confusion comes with the expression 'no law'. Many Christians also recoil in horror when it is suggested that we are obligated toq obey God's commandments, as if the commandments are either optional, or as some believe, annulled altogether. In order to justify their reluctance toward obedience, they condemn any obedience as legalism...an attempt to earn salvation. There is so much confusion and disagreement even on the meaning of the most basic of terms. Discussions on this often come to an inconclusive slow death.