More on the deity of Christ

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KUWN

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The deity of Christ at the Council of Nicea (c. AD 325)??

I am sick and tired of people claiming that the Council of Nicea (c. AD 325) made Jesus into God. This is a claim that you will hear from both cultists and skeptics. For example, Jehovah’s Witnesses are famous for making this claim. In their publication Should You Believe in the Trinity? they write, “Constantine’s role was crucial. After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician intervened and decided in favor of those who said that Jesus was God.” On this view, Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ in the fourth century.

This view was also propagated to millions of people in the bestselling book The Da Vinci Code: “Jesus’ establishment as ‘the Son of God‘ was officially proposed and voted on by the Council of Nicaea.... By officially endorsing Jesus as the Son of God, Constantine turned Jesus into a deity who existed beyond the scope of the human world, an entity whose power was unchallengeable.” Given the enormous popularity of The Da Vinci Code, this belief has become fully ingrained into the consciousness of the rank-and-file.

How should we respond to this claim? I have a two-pronged approach. First, I ask a question: How did you come to that conclusion? This is the second Columbo question in Greg Koukl’s book Tactics. It is one thing to make a historical claim, but it is another thing to back it up with historical facts. And this often-recited claim lacks any kind of historical support.

At this point, don’t be surprised if the person who raised the challenge cannot answer your question. The fact is, most people in our culture make claims they are not equipped to defend. This is not the time to insult; this is the time to inform. The person who made the claim is deeply misinformed, and you now have the opportunity to correct him. This leads to the second prong of your response.

Second, I look at the facts. This is the Just the Facts Ma’am tactic. Quite often we can correct a person’s false beliefs by appealing to the facts. When answering questions about what happened in the past, it is a good idea to consult reputable historians. In his book Truth and Fiction in the Da Vinci Code, agnostic historian Bart Ehrman writes,

Constantine did call the Council of Nicea, and one of the issues involved Jesus’ divinity. But this was not a council that met to decide whether or not Jesus was divine.... Quite the contrary: everyone at the Council—in fact, just about every Christian everywhere—already agreed that Jesus was divine, the Son of God. The question being debated was how to understand Jesus’ divinity in light of the circumstance that he was also human. Moreover, how could both Jesus and God be God if there is only one God? Those were the issues that were addressed at Nicea, not whether or not Jesus was divine. And there certainly was no vote to determine Jesus’ divinity: this was already a matter of common knowledge among Christians, and had been from the early years of the religion.

So belief in the deity of Jesus existed since “the early years of the religion.” Just how early? The New Testament is full of references to the deity of Christ. Certainly Paul (Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Phil. 2:5–8), Peter (2 Pet. 1:1), and John (John 1:1; 8:58; 20:28) believed that Jesus is God.
However, to show that Christians believed in the deity of Christ before the Council of Nicea, you can also consult the early church fathers. The person claiming that Nicea invented the deity of Jesus will be surprised to learn that the earliest church fathers explicitly affirmed the deity of Christ. Here is a small sample.

Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna and a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians, he writes,

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.

Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and another disciple of John. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,

There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.

For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.


Justin Martyr
(AD 100-165) was a Christian apologist of the second century. He boldly states,

And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.

Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.


Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130-202) was bishop of what is now known as Lyons, France. Irenaeus studied under bishop Polycarp, who in turn had been a disciple of John the Apostle. He writes,

He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons.

...Christ Jesus our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father.


Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215) was another early church father. He wrote around AD 200. He writes,

This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man...


Tertullian (AD 150-225) was an early Christian apologist writing around a century after John. He said,

For God alone is without sin; and the only man without sin is Christ, since Christ is also God.


Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170-235) was a third century theologian. He was a disciple of Irenaeus, who was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. He writes,

The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God.

For all, the righteous and the unrighteous alike, shall be brought before God the Word.

All of these church fathers wrote over a century before the Council of Nicea supposedly invented the deity of Jesus. So here is my question: If the early church fathers explicitly affirmed Jesus’ deity before Nicea, then how can anyone claim that it was an invention at Nicea?
The facts overwhelmingly confirm that the deity of Christ was not invented at Nicea. In fact, this belief was birthed out of the original disciples’ close interaction with Jesus. Consequently, Jesus’ words and actions led the disciples to the only reasonable conclusion: Jesus is God. And this belief was passed down through church history.
 

Matthias

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As a Jewish monotheist who believes Jesus of Nazareth (himself a Jewish monotheist) is the Messiah, the Son of God, I don’t have an issue with him being described / identified in scripture as elohim / theos.

Unlike me, Tertullian isn’t a Jewish monotheist. His understanding on the matter will differ from mine.

“Because God is in like manner a Father, and He is also a Judge; but He has not always been Father and Judge, merely on the ground of His having always been God. For He could not have been the Father previous to the Son, nor a Judge previous to sin. There was, however, a time when neither sin existed with Him, nor the Son; the former of which was to constitute the Lord a Judge; and the latter a Father.”

(Against Hermogenes, Chapter 3)

How, in what way, would you say the Messiah is deity during the time frame when, Tertullian asserts, the Son did not exist with the Father @KUWN?
 

KUWN

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How, in what way, would you say the Messiah is deity during the time frame when, Tertullian asserts, the Son did not exist with the Father @KUWN?
It looks like you have read Tertullian. Tertullian started off pretty good with his theology, but later was a wacho. He turned away from a lot of his beliefs but He believed that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each God, and that they are three in degree, not in being.

Here is how I describe the Godhead before and after creation:

Before (sans) the creation of anything, the Godhead was illustrated thus:
G, G, and G. (in eternity past)
There was no hierarchy within the Godhead because there was no creation.

After the creation of the world and humans, the Godhead looked like this:
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
Unlike Allah, the Trinity is relational. There was fellowship among the Members of the Godhead.

The above diagram is only for illustration.
 
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Aunty Jane

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All of these church fathers wrote over a century before the Council of Nicea supposedly invented the deity of Jesus. So here is my question: If the early church fathers explicitly affirmed Jesus’ deity before Nicea, then how can anyone claim that it was an invention at Nicea?
According to The Encyclopedia Americana, regional councils instrumental in organizing Catholic churches in Spain, Britain, and elsewhere were “often called and dominated by the secular power.” General councils of religious leaders from the whole Roman empire “were unknown before the Council of Nicaea (325 A.D.) called by Emperor Constantine”.

If the ECF’s had significant things to add to the words of Jesus and his apostles, especially concerning something as serious as the very nature of God himself, why were they not included in Scripture? For those who understand that the Bible canon was of God’s making, then what it contains is by his authorization….not by any man’s.
The facts overwhelmingly confirm that the deity of Christ was not invented at Nicea. In fact, this belief was birthed out of the original disciples’ close interaction with Jesus. Consequently, Jesus’ words and actions led the disciples to the only reasonable conclusion: Jesus is God. And this belief was passed down through church history.
The facts are obscured by time and a gradual introduction into Christian teachings was undertaken by those who wanted to add things to the word of God. Twisting obscure verses to accommodate apostate thinking,
Jesus said that an apostasy would take place in the Christian faith and the apostles confirmed that it was already beginning in the first century. Add a few hundred years of false doctrines and a forbidding to read Scripture by anyone but a priest, and you have a recipe for the “weeds of Jesus’ parable.

The trinity was at first strongly refuted, but as time passed the contention waned for many.
But no mention of a trinity is found in Scripture. Even the Catholic Church admits that.

Before Tertullian’s time, the Trinity was not even mentioned. And Tertullian’s “heterodox” Trinity was much different from that believed today. How, then, did the Trinity doctrine, as understood today, develop?

Other writers of the second and third centuries, such as Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Origen, Cyprian, and Novatian.….while some came to equate the Father and the Son in certain respects, in other ways they viewed the Son as subordinate to God the Father. And none of them even speculated that the holy spirit was equal to the Father and the Son. For example, Origen (c. 185 to 254 C.E.) states that the Son of God is “the First-born of all creation” and that the Scriptures “know Him to be the most ancient of all the works of creation.”

Perhaps it is more correct to say that the Council of Nicaea just made what was “unofficial”….”official“ doctrine of the Roman Catholic church. In any case it is the foundational belief of almost all of Christendom.

But if the foundation is without support, anything built on it will collapse….the foundation has to be rock…not sand.
 
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Matthias

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It looks like you have read Tertullian.

I have. I was required to read some of his works when I was a college student. I’ve since read and re-read all of his writings.

Tertullian started off pretty good with his theology, but later was a wacho. He turned away from a lot of his beliefs but He believed that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each God, and that they are three in degree, not in being.

I’ve never met a trinitarian who believed that there was a time when the Son did not exist with the Father. We should be able to agree that the proposition doesn’t fit with historical orthodox trinitarianism.

In the classroom I would ask my students (some trinitarian, some not) about the quote without identifying who it was that said it. Most of them thought it was written by Arius, in the 4th century.

Tertullian also believed in subordinationism, another belief I’m sure we can agree doesn’t fit with the teaching of historical orthodox trinitarianism.

Here is how I describe the Godhead before and after creation:

Before (sans) the creation of anything, the Godhead was illustrated thus:
G, G, and G. (in eternity past)
There was no hierarchy within the Godhead because there was no creation.

After the creation of the world and humans, the Godhead looked like this:
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
Unlike Allah, the Trinity is relational. There was fellowship among the Members of the Godhead.

The above diagram is only for illustration.

“The Son is God.” The question is, how is the Son God?

Tertullian is neither a Jewish monotheist nor a trinitarian.
 

Matthias

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“His trinitarian teaching is inconsistent, being an amalgamation of the Roman doctrine with that of St. Justin Martyr. Tertullian has the true formula for the Holy Trinity, tres Personae, una Substantia. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are numerically distinct, and each is God; they are of one substance, one state, and one power. So far the doctrine is accurately Nicene. But by the side of this appears the Greek view which was one day to develop into Arianism: that the unity is to be sought not in the Essence but in the origin of the Persons. He says that from all eternity there was reason (ratio) in God, and in reason the Word (Sermo), not distinct from God, but in vulva cordis. For the purpose of creation the Word received a perfect birth as Son. There was a time when there was no Son and no sin, when God was neither Father nor Judge.”

(Catholic Encyclopedia, “Tertullian”)


It’s easy to see from this why most of my students mistakenly thought the quote came from Arius.
 

Matthias

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“6. Origen’s Helpful Suggestion. It was the many-sided genius of Origen that helped solve the problem. Origen, like Tertullian, was strongly opposed to Monarchianism with its emphasis on monotheism to the exclusion of hypostasianism and tri-personality. Abandoning the view of the Apologists and of Tertullian who conceived the Logos to be a person only from the time of creation, Origen declared the Logos to have been a person from all eternity. ‘His generation is as eternal and ever lasting as the brilliancy produced by the sun.’ ‘The Father did not beget the Son and set Him free after He was begotten, but He is always begetting Him.’ This suggestion of an eternal generation was a needed contribution. It was unconsciously a step in the direction of the co-eternity and co-equality of the Son with the Father, as expressed in the Church’s doctrine of the Trinity.”

(J.L. Neve, A History of Christian Thought, Vol. 1, p. 108)
 

Matthias

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Offered in partial support of the OP.

”During Constantine’s reign, controversy arose over the teachings of Arius, who denied the full divinity of Jesus. Constantine called a meeting of Christian bishops, the Council of Nicea, to settle the dispute. Contrary to popular myth, this meeting did not discuss the canon of the Bible, nor was Constantine influential in the council’s decisions. Emperor’s saw themselves as responsible for promoting ‘correct’ forms of worship; Constantine’s interest was not to declare orthodoxy bjt to let the bishops determine it so that he could enforce it. Further, Constantine was not known for his philosophical ability and found himself lost in deeper discussions of theology. Rather, he acted as the council’s mediator and host, roles at which he excelled.

Constantine’s Christian faith has frequently been critiqued, if not questioned outright. On one hand, he made great strides in securing political and social rights for Christians and initiating general humanitarian reforms. He poured time and money into building churches and publicly supporting Christianity. Particularly toward the end of his reign, Constantine vocally professed faith in Christ and credited his success to God. He was baptized shortly before his death, according to the common practice of his time.

On the other hand, Constantine continued many pagan practices, including veneration of the sun. His interest in Christian orthodoxy was motivated primarily by a desire to maintain social order. There are also reasons to suspect that Constantine was as ruthless toward rivals as prior emperors had been. One of his sons, a brother-in-law, and his second wife were executed for reasons still unknown. He freely blended pagan practices with Christian beliefs, leading scholars to suggest his public adoption of Christianity might have been a savvy political move, linking him to a rising social force in the Roman Empire.

Ultimately, whether Constantine was a committed Christian, a shrewd, Christian-friendly politician, or something in between is an open question. …”


From what I’ve read about Constantine and the Council of Nicaea, I think that’s a fair presentation.
 

Matthias

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In the news this week, the famous trinitarian apologist Dr. James White suggests that Ignatius may not have existed. I don’t support his position on the existence of Ignatius (I’m fully persuaded that he did exist) but he also points out the obvious corruption of Ignatius’ letters. (That’s undeniable.) I’ve read them and recommend that others read them for themselves.

 
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Matthias

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Question: Can Jesus of Nazareth be both “God and man” without himself being deity?

Answer: Yes. That fits within the boundaries of Jewish monotheism.

P.S.

And within the boundaries of primitive Christianity.
 
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Wrangler

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The deity of Christ at the Council of Nicea (c. AD 325)??

I am sick and tired of people claiming that the Council of Nicea (c. AD 325) made Jesus into God.
Debating this topic is forbidden again, isn't it?

 
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Matthias

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Debating this topic is forbidden again, isn't it?


It’s an interesting policy decision. Two things about it strike me as being relevant: 1. This particular forum isn’t designated as ”Christians Only” and 2. The policy offers an alternative - a member registered as “Christian” can request that it be changed to “Other Faith”.

I registered as “Christian” when I first joined but, due to objections expressed by a few members who lobbied publicly and aggressively for my membership to be revoked by Board administration, combined with a desire on my part to remain here in peace, I voluntarily proposed that my membership be changed to “Other Faith” over two years ago. My proposal was made publicly, discussed publicly and subsequently approved. It has worked well for me and for those who objected to my membership here. The only drawback for me is that I’m restricted from posting (and even reacting) in most of the forums on the Board. On the other hand, any subject that is discussed in the “Christians Only” forums can be discussed in forums where I do have posting privileges.

As I read the new policy, Christians who affirm the Nicene Creed may discuss the Trinity with those of other faiths and those conversations may take place only in the handful of forums which are not designated “Christians Only”.

That puts me in somewhat of a unique position. Unless non-trinitarians are willing to change their registration from “Christian” to “Other Faith” the new policy appears to prohibit them from discussing the Trinity with Nicene Christians in any forum of the Board.

A question for non-trinitarian members who are registered as ”Christian”: are you so determined to discuss (or debate) the Trinity with trinitarians that you‘re willing to forgo self-identifying as “Christian” here in order to do it? Count the cost.

***

I’m not interested in debating the Trinity. I’m not interested in debating anything.

I don’t mind discussing the Trinity but the Trinity isn’t my God and I’m far more interested in discussing my God than I am in discussing the Trinity.
 
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APAK

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It’s an interesting policy decision. Two things about it strike me as being relevant: 1. This particular forum isn’t designated as ”Christians Only” and 2. The policy offers an alternative - a member registered as “Christian” can request that it be changed to “Other Faith”.

I registered as “Christian” when I first joined but, due to objections expressed by a few members who lobbied publicly and aggressively for my membership to be revoked by Board administration, combined with a desire on my part to remain here in peace, I voluntarily proposed that my membership be changed to “Other Faith” over two years ago. My proposal was made publicly, discussed publicly and subsequently approved. It has worked well for me and for those who objected to my membership here. The only drawback for me is that I’m restricted from posting (and even reacting) in most of the forums on the Board. On the other hand, any subject that is discussed in the “Christians Only” forums can be discussed in forums where I do have posting privileges.

As I read the new policy, Christians who affirm the Nicene Creed may discuss the Trinity with those of other faiths and those conversations may take place only in the handful of forums which are not designated “Christians Only”.

That puts me in somewhat of a unique position. Unless non-trinitarians are willing to change their registration from “Christian” to “Other Faith” the new policy appears to prohibit them from discussing the Trinity with Nicene Christians in any forum of the Board.

A question for non-trinitarian members who are registered as ”Christian”: are you so determined to discuss (or debate) the Trinity with trinitarians that you‘re willing to forgo self-identifying as “Christian” here in order to do it? Count the cost.

***

I’m not interested in debating the Trinity. I’m not interested in debating anything.

I don’t mind discussing the Trinity but the Trinity isn’t my God and I’m far more interested in discussing my God than I am in discussing the Trinity.
Mat: I would rather exit this forum for good, either by their forced terms or on my own terms, we'll see. I may still post on close-hand issues, most probably by implication only, as part of another topic. It's very hard to discuss anything of theological interest and importance of God and his Son without showing your cards that the Father is superior to the Son. There's no way around it if you are to be truthful and honest with yourself and to others.

Two observations: 1. I noticed that in the new rules/statement of faith update, of a week ago, there is no mention of the Father, only the Son, in the introduction. As the main statement is " this diversity does not mean that we must sacrifice essential truths of living as a follower of Jesus Christ.." The Father is the source of all truth....what a shame they could not include him.

and 2., It's ironic that the very centerpiece of faith and doctrine held sacred on this site, the Trinity, now cannot be discussed as it's now a so called 'closed-hand' issue. So one cannot enjoy discussing their faith that compliments this site, as this would be too controversial or incite a riot.....it would seem..
 
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Matthias

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Mat: I would rather exit this forum for good, either by their forced terms or on my own terms, we'll see. I may still post on close-hand issues, most probably by implication only, as part of another topic. It's very hard to discuss anything of theological interest and importance of God and his Son without showing your cards that the Father is superior to the Son. There's no way around it if you are to be truthful and honest with yourself and to others.

Two observations: 1. I noticed that in the new rules/statement of faith update, of a week ago, there is no mention of the Father, only the Son, in the introduction. As the main statement is " this diversity does not mean that we must sacrifice essential truths of living as a follower of Jesus Christ.." The Father is the source of all truth....what a shame they could not include him.

and 2., It's ironic that the very centerpiece of faith and doctrine held sacred on this site, the Trinity, now cannot be discussed as it's now a so called 'closed-hand' issue. So one cannot enjoy discussing their faith that compliments this site, as this would be too controversial or incite a riot.....it would seem..

I think it’s simple enough - the powers that be aren’t going to allow Christians to discuss the Trinity with Christians.

The “Trinity wars” have taken place almost exclusively in “Christians Only” forums and there isn’t much interest in the Trinity in what I call the “shadow land”. It’s been, for the most part, tranquil down here.

The new strategy: If “you” are a Christian who doesn’t affirm Nicene Christianity then keep it to yourself. Alternatively, change the way you self-identify and be confined to the shadow land - where there isn’t much interest in discussing the Trinity. In other words, renounce the title and post in an area where few Christian members are interested in speaking with ”you” about anything.

It works for me because I’m not concerned about retaining the title.

I’m a Jewish monotheist. I’ve never concealed that fact about myself from anyone. I believe in God and also in Jesus of Nazareth (John 14:1). That’s good enough for me, and forgoing the title has satisfied my critics.
 
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APAK

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I think it’s simple enough - the powers that be aren’t going to allow Christians to discuss the Trinity with Christians.

The “Trinity wars” have taken place almost exclusively in “Christians Only” forums and there isn’t much interest in the Trinity in what I call the “shadow land”. It’s been, for the most part, tranquil down here.

The new strategy: If “you” are a Christian who doesn’t affirm Nicene Christianity then keep it to yourself. Alternatively, change the way you self-identify and be confined to the shadow land - where there isn’t much interest in discussing the Trinity. In other words, renounce the title and post in an area where few Christian members are interested in speaking with ”you” about anything.

It works for me because I’m not concerned about retaining the title.

I’m a Jewish monotheist. I’ve never concealed that fact about myself from anyone. I believe in God and also in Jesus of Nazareth (John 14:1). That’s good enough for me, and forgoing the title has satisfied my critics.
No Mat, I'm not into their games, as I see them. If they want to get serious about who they are, or represent, they should pose the question of N. Creed loyalty at the front door, when a new member wants to register. And then also have heretic guards wander around the forums and threads and ban those who they think lied about their loyalty to the crown, without any questions asked or reason given. Kind of like the inquisitions, aye.
 

APAK

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It's difficult to overcome cognitive dissonance. Defining Christianity as orthodox (equating to trinitarianism) while also admitting heterodox.
So right about that...that both do not line up...good eye you have
 

APAK

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The deity of Christ at the Council of Nicea (c. AD 325)??

I am sick and tired of people claiming that the Council of Nicea (c. AD 325) made Jesus into God. This is a claim that you will hear from both cultists and skeptics. For example, Jehovah’s Witnesses are famous for making this claim. In their publication Should You Believe in the Trinity? they write, “Constantine’s role was crucial. After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician intervened and decided in favor of those who said that Jesus was God.” On this view, Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ in the fourth century.

This view was also propagated to millions of people in the bestselling book The Da Vinci Code: “Jesus’ establishment as ‘the Son of God‘ was officially proposed and voted on by the Council of Nicaea.... By officially endorsing Jesus as the Son of God, Constantine turned Jesus into a deity who existed beyond the scope of the human world, an entity whose power was unchallengeable.” Given the enormous popularity of The Da Vinci Code, this belief has become fully ingrained into the consciousness of the rank-and-file.

How should we respond to this claim? I have a two-pronged approach. First, I ask a question: How did you come to that conclusion? This is the second Columbo question in Greg Koukl’s book Tactics. It is one thing to make a historical claim, but it is another thing to back it up with historical facts. And this often-recited claim lacks any kind of historical support.

At this point, don’t be surprised if the person who raised the challenge cannot answer your question. The fact is, most people in our culture make claims they are not equipped to defend. This is not the time to insult; this is the time to inform. The person who made the claim is deeply misinformed, and you now have the opportunity to correct him. This leads to the second prong of your response.

Second, I look at the facts. This is the Just the Facts Ma’am tactic. Quite often we can correct a person’s false beliefs by appealing to the facts. When answering questions about what happened in the past, it is a good idea to consult reputable historians. In his book Truth and Fiction in the Da Vinci Code, agnostic historian Bart Ehrman writes,

Constantine did call the Council of Nicea, and one of the issues involved Jesus’ divinity. But this was not a council that met to decide whether or not Jesus was divine.... Quite the contrary: everyone at the Council—in fact, just about every Christian everywhere—already agreed that Jesus was divine, the Son of God. The question being debated was how to understand Jesus’ divinity in light of the circumstance that he was also human. Moreover, how could both Jesus and God be God if there is only one God? Those were the issues that were addressed at Nicea, not whether or not Jesus was divine. And there certainly was no vote to determine Jesus’ divinity: this was already a matter of common knowledge among Christians, and had been from the early years of the religion.

So belief in the deity of Jesus existed since “the early years of the religion.” Just how early? The New Testament is full of references to the deity of Christ. Certainly Paul (Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Phil. 2:5–8), Peter (2 Pet. 1:1), and John (John 1:1; 8:58; 20:28) believed that Jesus is God.
However, to show that Christians believed in the deity of Christ before the Council of Nicea, you can also consult the early church fathers. The person claiming that Nicea invented the deity of Jesus will be surprised to learn that the earliest church fathers explicitly affirmed the deity of Christ. Here is a small sample.

Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna and a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians, he writes,

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.
Let's start with Poly shall we...

Polycarp's statement that clearly distinguishes between God and Jesus:

"Now may the God and Father of our lord Jesus Christ, AND the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up," is considered authentic and is found in his only surviving work, the Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians.

This statement clearly differentiates between God and Jesus, indicating that Polycarp did not view Jesus as "God" in the same sense as the Father. However, some Trinitarians argue that Polycarp believed Jesus was "God" based on certain translations of his writings, but these interpretations are disputed. The authenticity of Polycarp's statement above is generally accepted among scholars.

So what you added beyond Polycarp's statement I cited is very much in dispute and most probably a fake.

And it would be illogical for Poly to start by making such a statement after he clearly distinguished God the Father and his Son, Jesus the Christ.

So I reckon we can toss that one out, to the rubbish bin....:clmSmlx
 

Matthias

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No Mat, I'm not into their games, as I see them. If they want to get serious about who they are, or represent, they should pose the question of N. Creed loyalty at the front door, when a new member wants to register. And then also have heretic guards wander around the forums and threads and ban those who they think lied about their loyalty to the crown, without any questions asked or reason given. Kind of like the inquisitions, aye.

I respect your position. What is keeping you from starting a thread within the hour attacking the Trinity in one of the “Christians Only” forums?