Mark of the Beast - the Chip

[Naomi25]

I'm still trying to grasp how, in the future, vendors are supposed to discern whether or not the customer in front of them legitimately worships the beast in order to complete transactions.

I'm envisioning that every single customer will have to make a rock'n'roll sign with their right hand and then sieg heil-ing with it before each and every transaction. I guess digital transactions would have you performing this motion in front of a camera...

If these examples sound absurd, that is because they are. I am still perplexed on the subject. Can you offer a more reasonable explanation of how citizens living under the rulership of AC are supposed to discern whether or not their neighbor/random customer does, in fact, worship the beast, in order that none may buy or sell without this mark, according to what scripture directly states?

I suspect you are struggling to grasp it because, like most of us here, you live in a Country where it is hard to imagine not having the freedom we have. The problem is that we are, in fact, not the majority, in terms of these sorts of freedoms. How many Islamic Countries are there? Russia is making it harder and harder to be Christian. North Korea is appalling. China has set up a 'big brother' system so incredible that I'm constantly shocked that we don't hear more about it here. If you don't toe the party line, even to the point of having the right friends, your social score drops. With a low social score, you have no job, no friends, no prospects of getting good references for housing, education...etc.
It's like this and getting worse by the year. So...is it far fetched to imagine that some time soon Christians will be demanded to participate in the "social norm"? Even in our "free" countries we have growing scorn against us for standing up for biblical truth.

But, in answer to "making a rock n roll" sign, what if buying something in Iran required you to return an Islamic blessing? Or receive one? Would you, as a Christian, accept that? Would you compramise? Or in China, what if having a job meant you had to avoid all other Christians? What if you had to salute to the 'great leader' of your country as you all filed in for the day? The Nazi's did it. Could you do that just for a job and ignore Christ?

This is what its about...the Peter factor. Do we stand for Christ, or do we deny him? And do we repent, like he did, or do we continue to deny Christ just to save our skins?

Your Islamic counterpoint doesn't take into account that Christian's living in such anti-Christian areas could, quite easily, enter and conduct business with sellers ignorant of their Christianity (and why wouldn't they be?) Do you really think every single Arab vendor in the ME asks each and every one of their customers before a transaction "...just making sure but... you aren't a Christian...right? Because if you are I totally will not sell you this chocolate bar" There is no reason to be so personal, and a logical expectation would be that people would lie anyway, though Christians do not even need to since the question isn't likely to come up.

In some places they can do so peacefully. For now. But in other places they are killed even by family members...because they won't renounce Jesus. The absolute and only way you could hide from everyone that you are a Christian, is if you told no one, and you didn't allow it to outwardly change you...which would mean not participating in your old religion. That sort of 'blasphemy' gets around in strict Muslim areas. You better believe people have been killed for it.
And, I think we can both agree things will get worse. And...we don't know it will be Islam, I'm just using that as an example of something that so saturates the culture it is all pervasive.

Further, to expect that every single vendor on earth will magically comply with some cumbersome law that disallows all from entering transactions with those who lack an undetectable, spiritual mark does not make sense. Monetary trade agreements resembling the time prior to and disregarding said law will certainly still occur. Laws are broken constantly. We already cannot know for certain (though we may be quite sure) of the true spiritual states of our own family and friends, and whether they are truly saved (salvific allegiance to Christ) or not. Only God really knows who are His and we simply do not possess such knowledge of one another.

Is it reasonable to need to claim absolutes to prove your point? Even in your Left Behind books (which I recognize are just fiction, but seem to rather succinctly sum up the doctrine) there are 'believers' who survive because of antichrist sympathizers who just don't give enough of a toss. The point is, I believe, that the system of those in charge makes it incredibly difficult for believers to access trade. Be it through currency or through their own conscious because of the compromise required.

How are we supposed to verify the true heart allegiance of a stranger before conducting business? A branding, on the other hand, solves this mystery. Yet a branding in and of itself is far too primitive an idea, especially in lieu of technological development.

Scripture states none may do so (buy/sell). This indicates that it will be an impossibility. The question then becomes how would such a system be enforced, to which the answer is: via technology

This is deductive reasoning. It is not the adding of anything to scripture in order to make a dispensationalist theory fit.

Ok...at this point, we're just going around and around. You're clearly missing my point of WHY the mark doesn't need to be physical. And unless you get that, of course you're not going to be able to move past what sort of physical mark would surfice. So, it's probably best we move on at this point.

Okay so is it fair to say that you do not take Rev 14:9-10 at face value then?

No, of course I take it at face value. But the text says :

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” -Revelation 14:9–11

The person who is to be tormented for having this 'mark' and 'worshiping' the beast, will be tormented "with fire and sulphur" and the "fire of their torment goes up forever and ever".
Where else do we see language like this?

And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. -Revelation 19:20

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. -Revelation 20:10


Basically, Rev 14:9-11 is talking about the final judgement/punishment. It's final because at the time of this judgement they are found to have this mark. However; the passage says nothing about whether it is possible to repent of following such evil beforehand. It says nothing on the subject, which leaves us only what we know from the rest of the NT.

Which other dispensationalist viewpoints on Revelation do you reject?

Thanks!

Oh, goodness! Most of them! But that's only because we start from such different interpretive places. Dispensationalists read it strictly literally, and chronologically. Amillennialists read is symbolically, as we believe apocalyptic literature is supposed to be. And we see it as recappitulative. In other words, it's a series of vision that repeat. That's why we see what appears to be Christ triumphantly returning several times. He only returns once, but the same picture is shown again and again again. We get slightly different views each time, getting more information each time, each time also growing more intense, telling us that as time grows late, the birth pains increase.
Anyway, that's just a five second snap-shot. I'd need an hour to go into it. Possibly five.

 

[brakelite]

I'm still trying to grasp how, in the future, vendors are supposed to discern whether or not the customer in front of them legitimately worships the beast in order to complete transactions.

I'm envisioning that every single customer will have to make a rock'n'roll sign with their right hand and then sieg heil-ing with it before each and every transaction. I guess digital transactions would have you performing this motion in front of a camera...

If these examples sound absurd, that is because they are. I am still perplexed on the subject. Can you offer a more reasonable explanation of how citizens living under the rulership of AC are supposed to discern whether or not their neighbor/random customer does, in fact, worship the beast, in order that none may buy or sell without this mark, according to what scripture directly states?

Your Islamic counterpoint doesn't take into account that Christian's living in such anti-Christian areas could, quite easily, enter and conduct business with sellers ignorant of their Christianity (and why wouldn't they be?) Do you really think every single Arab vendor in the ME asks each and every one of their customers before a transaction "...just making sure but... you aren't a Christian...right? Because if you are I totally will not sell you this chocolate bar" There is no reason to be so personal, and a logical expectation would be that people would lie anyway, though Christians do not even need to since the question isn't likely to come up.

Further, to expect that every single vendor on earth will magically comply with some cumbersome law that disallows all from entering transactions with those who lack an undetectable, spiritual mark does not make sense. Monetary trade agreements resembling the time prior to and disregarding said law will certainly still occur. Laws are broken constantly. We already cannot know for certain (though we may be quite sure) of the true spiritual states of our own family and friends, and whether they are truly saved (salvific allegiance to Christ) or not. Only God really knows who are His and we simply do not possess such knowledge of one another.

How are we supposed to verify the true heart allegiance of a stranger before conducting business? A branding, on the other hand, solves this mystery. Yet a branding in and of itself is far too primitive an idea, especially in lieu of technological development.

Scripture states none may do so (buy/sell). This indicates that it will be an impossibility. The question then becomes how would such a system be enforced, to which the answer is: via technology

This is deductive reasoning. It is not the adding of anything to scripture in order to make a dispensationalist theory fit.



Okay so is it fair to say that you do not take Rev 14:9-10 at face value then?



Which other dispensationalist viewpoints on Revelation do you reject?

Thanks!

If one reads Revelation in context and carefully, one will come to the conclusion that the withdrawal by the governing authorities the rights to buying and selling is the direct result of not accepting the mark of the beast. Therefore whatever the mark is, and whatever the beast is, must be readily discernible to all observers...it is clearly a religious practice carried out in direct obedience to the beast, and the financial restraints placed upon the non-conformists their reward for rebellion. The death sentence follows. These are inducements to loyalty. Buying and selling, in whatever form, does not offend God, unless its with avarice and covetousness. These days of international digital compliance and with people readily accepting already micro chips (which are NOT the mark) getting switched off from the banking system when all cash is depleted or withdrawn from currency, is an easy task. The beast is not the owner of the financial system...that is bank shareholders or the Rothschild family et al...though they will be clearly closely allied having the same agendas. Note the following...

 

[Dave L]

There is no way for any government to enforce a mandatory chip without sending the country into civil war.

When the EU becomes the restored Roman Empire and Christians are gone I expect there to be an ultimatum to worship the AC and take the chip or die.

Europe has many people and some of the countries ready to take up arms against Islam in their borders now. They are building walls enclosing their borders to Muslims at an increasing rate.

How 65 countries have erected security walls on their borders | Daily Mail Online

Except, scripture nowhere says there will be a restored Roman Empire. This is pure Dispensationalist poppycock.

 

[Dave L]

You're not arguing against me, but against Rev 14:9-10 which clearly states the reality of those that TAKE it.

You are adding to Revelation if you claim technology is the Mark when it clearly is not. And people have worn it already for millennia. Even today....

 

[friend of]

He will use an electronic scanner to confirm the Mark and then proceed with the transaction.

Agreed. That's the point I'm trying to present.

 

[Dave L]

Charles Manson said the creatures (Revelation 9:7–10) with women's hair with faces of men were the Beatles. And the sting in their tails were electric guitar cables plugged into amplifiers. How is this any different from many who try to read technology and current trends into Revelation? It is nothing more than scripture having become a giant Rorschach Test for prophetic crackpots world wide.

 

[friend of]

China has set up a 'big brother' system so incredible that I'm constantly shocked that we don't hear more about it here

Yes but only through technology is this such a control system as "social score" possible.

Anyway, thanks for explaining your side of the interpretation.

 

[brakelite]

Except, scripture nowhere says there will be a restored Roman Empire. This is pure Dispensationalist poppycock.

Indeed. Why the need of a restoration, when the original, in a modified form (iron and clay), is still with us, and will be till the end?

 

[friend of]

If one reads Revelation in context and carefully, one will come to the conclusion that the withdrawal by the governing authorities the rights to buying and selling is the direct result of not accepting the mark of the beast.

I'm trying to investigate how such a system will be enforced from the top down and I don't have a solid answer yet.

it is clearly a religious practice carried out in direct obedience to the beast, and the financial restraints placed upon the non-conformists their reward for rebellion

Please explain how every single transaction one makes in that world is supposed to be preceded by a display of "religious practice" How are vendors supposed to discern who to buy and sell with if the mark is purely spiritual and intangible at this point?

 

[brakelite]

I'm trying to investigate how such a system will be enforced from the top down and I don't have a solid answer yet.

In Revelation 13 we see the second beast saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. Now this image is NOT a statue, that idea is nuts. It is an image,,,a political carbon copy of the first beast. That first beast is the Papacy, coming from the sea...peoples nations, tongues. The second beast, also a political power, rises from the earth, as opposed to the sea...thus a less populated land and in the timframe of that rising...late 18th century, the only candidate is the USA. So the US is saying to the people who dwell on that earth that it rose from (America), that they should make (democratic decision coming here note) an aimage to the Papacy. In other words, a union of church and state. It is that union of Protestant America with its government (do you see that happening as we speak?) that enforces a religious practice in loyalty to the Catholic church. So yes, it is a government induced proposition, but not without the approval of the people who created the monster that then ruled.

Please explain how every single transaction one makes in that world is supposed to be preceded by a display of "religious practice" How are vendors supposed to discern who to buy and sell with if the mark is purely spiritual and intangible at this point?

Won't be up to the vendors. One I imagine (as a possibility) that no-one will be able to operate a bank account without first swearing loyalty to the power that rules ie Rome. You won't have to convert to do this...just agree with her on certain matters, or at least one. Once you do this as a conscientious decision knowing that to do so is an affront to God, then you have the mark in the head, and your bank account switched on. If you do this because you are hungry and your children complaining, you do it for convenience, you receive the mark in your hand. Your bank account switched on. You don't bother to go the bank for a card or chip because no way do you agree doctrinally with the proposition, you go hungry. The rent isn't paid so you become homeless. Those who are homeless are rounded up to ensure they aren't skipping the 'mark', some will then change their minds, offer the hand, others will be fined, then jailed, then given the death sentence. "The wise who understand" have long fled the cities for the bush and live off the land or in trust in God's providence.

 

[CoreIssue]

Except, scripture nowhere says there will be a restored Roman Empire. This is pure Dispensationalist poppycock.

It says the 10 toes will be reunited by the AC. The Roman Empire gives a figurative description of what that Empire will be like.

Continue calling it the EU or whatever name you like. But the principle of of what I said is true.

 

[Dave L]

It says the 10 toes will be reunited by the AC. The Roman Empire gives a figurative description of what that Empire will be like.

Continue calling it the EU or whatever name you like. But the principle of of what I said is true.

This is not in the bible. It lifts scripture from its context and fabricates a false prophecy from it.

 

[CoreIssue]

This is not in the bible. It lifts scripture from its context and fabricates a false prophecy from it.

Revelation 17:12-13 New International Version (NIV)
12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.

 

[quietthinker]

View attachment 5220

If you were told you were in error you wouldn't believe it so you are left with your error.

 

[Enoch111]

This is not in the bible. It lifts scripture from its context and fabricates a false prophecy from it.

Dave, since you believe in Amillennialism, you would not understand any prophecies concerning the future.

There is no fabrication of *a false prophecy* when properly interpreting the dream of the Nebuchadnezzar, and the additional visions given to Daniel, which all tie into Revelation, and are connected to the three major empires which arose after the Babylonian.

And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. (Daniel 2:40,41)

Daniel interpreted Nebuchadnezzar's dream of *a great image* to show that the head of gold represented the Babylonian empire, the chest and arms of silver represented the Medo-Persian empire, the belly and thighs of brass represented the Graeco-Macedonian empire, and legs of iron represented the Roman empire. History confirms that this is how these empires succeeded each other, and all the countries around the Mediterranean Sea belonged to Rome at one time.

So now the question arises as to what succeeded Rome, or what would represent the former Roman empire at the time that the Antichrist (the Beast) would take control of the earth in the future (definitely not the Papacy).

Daniel said (as revealed by God) that:
1. *The kingdom shall be divided* -- and the Roman empire eventually fell apart.
2. *But there shall be in it of the strength of the iron* -- which meant that it would not disappear altogether, and would be revived.

We know from recent history that the European Union was formed out of the former Roman empire. There are presently 28 countries in the EU, of which 20 were in the former Roman empire. The 8 which were not are Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ireland, and Poland. At the same time there are many countries not in the EU but were formerly in the Roman empire -- 13 Middle Eastern countries, 4 Balkan countries, 4 Central Asian countries, and a few other European countries.

So for the ten kingdoms or nations to arise out of this huge mass of countries and be associated with the Antichrist is not far-fetched at all. At this point it would be premature to make any definite connections.

 

[brakelite]

It says the 10 toes will be reunited by the AC.

No, the Bible does not say any such thing. In fact, precisely the opposite. After the Roman Western portion of the empire disintegrated and moved East, the territory was taken over by the ten horns...the ten Germanic tribes, 7 of which became the foundation for modern Europe. You say they will be reunited? That will take some doing. Even though every royal house of Europe is related they have never managed to unite, see italicised text below. Louis 14th tried...failed. Napoleon tried...failed. Kaiser Wilhelm tried...failed. Hitler tried...failed. The current EU parliament is trying...and failing. The Papacy (the real Antichrist) is trying...and failing. Why is that?
Da 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Oh, late edit...Charlamagne tried...you know the rest.

 

[CoreIssue]

Remember, the 10 toes are of the statue of Daniel and her what the Roman Empire broke down into. Now the EU.

 

[CoreIssue]

No, the Bible does not say any such thing. In fact, precisely the opposite. After the Roman Western portion of the empire disintegrated and moved East, the territory was taken over by the ten horns...the ten Germanic tribes, 7 of which became the foundation for modern Europe. You say they will be reunited? That will take some doing. Louis 14th tried...failed. Napoleon tried...failed. Kaiser Wilhelm tried...failed. Hitler tried...failed. The current EU parliament is trying...and failing. The Pope is trying...and failing. Why is that?
Da 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Look at the maps above and try to deny the 10 toes are the toes of the statue of Daniel.

You keep trying to declare Catholicism is the AC when the Bible states the AC will not be revealed until the restrainer is removed. So you defy the Bible and you say you know who the AC is.

 

[brakelite]

So now the question arises as to what succeeded Rome, or what would represent the former Roman empire at the time that the Antichrist (the Beast) would take control of the earth in the future (definitely not the Papacy).

Now that is an excellent question, and up to now, you were going well. But why tear the prophecy in half, taking the shredded portion to the future? Finish reading the prophecy itself, continue comparing it with established history, and everything falls into place. What grew out of that fourth Roman beast???? What do those horns represent? Did the nature of the Roman beast cease to exist, or was it just the empire it ruled? Did not the character of the empire continue in the inherited nature of the horns which grew from its head? What happened to those kingdoms and where are they today? Particularly that little horn which uprooted 3 of the other 10, who fulfilled the criteria of that prophecy????
Answer the above questions accurately and watch futurism collapse into a pool of murk and confusion.

 

[brakelite]

Look at the maps above and try to deny the 10 toes are the toes of the statue of Daniel.

You keep trying to declare Catholicism is the AC when the Bible states the AC will not be revealed until the restrainer is removed. So you defy the Bible and you say you know who the AC is.

The ten kings who vied for power as the Roman Empire disintegrated before them and from which 7 nations of modern Europe can trace their descent are known by most historians as being the Anglo-Saxons (Britain), the Allamanni (Germany), the Franks (France), the Lombards (first around the Danube then Italy), Visigoths (Spain), Burgundians (Burgundy/Switzerland)) and the Suevi (Portugal).

These seven of the ten Barbarian kingdoms were converted to Christianity and submitted to the authority of the Bishop of Rome. However, three of the kingdoms converted to Christianity but embraced the heretical teachings of Arius. Arius (who was presbyter in Alexandria around the year 320 A. D.) taught that ‘Christ was created out of nothing as the first and greatest of all creatures’, very similar to Jehovah Witness teachings of today. The teachings of Arius were condemned in two great church councils, Nicea (325 A. D.) and Constantinople (381 A. D.). These three Arian kingdoms were a threat to the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome [later called the Pope]. To make a long story short, these three kingdoms eventually were uprooted by the imperial power acting under the influence of the Bishop of Rome. The Ostrogoths (originally from Yugoslavia), by order of the emperor, dealt the heretical Heruli a devastating defeat in 493 A. D.

It happened like this: The Pope requested the emperor to do something about the unorthodox Heruli. In response, the emperor sent Theodoric, king of the Ostrogoths to do battle with Odoacer, king of the Heruli. Odoacer was slain by Theodoric and the Heruli disappeared from history.
Then the Vandals were crushed (in 534 A. D.) by Belisarius, general of emperor Justinian’s armies. But there was one remaining horn which needed to be uprooted, and it was the most formidable of all: the Ostrogoths. After the Ostrogoths conquered the Heruli, they became extremely powerful. They were also Arians, so the Bishop of Rome [the Pope] implored Justinian to uproot the Ostrogoths. There were several battles between Belisarius and the Ostrogoths. The decisive battle, however, was in February of the year 538. The armies of Justinian, as well as the ravages of disease, decimated the armies of the Ostrogoths, they were expelled from Rome and in short order, disappeared from the historical scene in Europe.

So @CoreIssue what was restraining the Papacy from its rise to fame and glory? The Roman Empire. The fourth beast from which the little horn grew. Here's a quote from one of the most prominent of Reformation era scholars, Sir Isaac Newton, who while better known as a scientist of no mean fame, wrote far more in relation to prophecy...which belies the common belief that the reformers weren't "into" prophecy.

“Antichrist, then (as the Fathers delight to call him), or the little horn, is to be sought among the ten kingdoms of the western Roman Empire. I say of the western Roman Empire, because that was properly the body of the fourth beast; Greece, and the countries which lay eastward of Italy belonged to the third beast; for the former beasts were still subsisting, though their dominion was taken away. ‘As concerning the rest of the beasts,’ saith Daniel, ‘they had their dominion taken away; yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.’ Daniel 7:12. ‘And therefore,’ as Sir Isaac Newton rightly infers, ‘all four beasts are still alive, though the dominion of the three first be taken away. The nations of Chaldea and Assyria are still the first beast. Those of Media and Persia are still the second beast. Those of Macedon, Greece and Thrace, Asia Minor, Syria, and Egypt, are still the third. And those of Europe, on this side of Greece, are still the fourth. Seeing therefore the body of the third beast is confined to the nations on this side the river Euphrates, and the body of the fourth beast is confined to the nations on this side of Greece; we are to look for all the four heads of the third beast among the nations on this side the river Euphrates; and for all the eleven horns of the fourth beast, among the nations on this side of Greece.”