Looking at the Statement of Faith

[KUWN]

Well, the one I alluded to was the one where God told the first man that he was not to eat of the fruit of just one tree in the garden….that command, if he broke it, had consequences…death.

Every law that carried the death penalty was conditional….just because God said not to do something, didn’t mean that humans could not disobey him….they could choose their actions based on their ability to weigh up the pros and cons of carrying out a certain activity….. or not.
Even the laws that do not carry the death penalty, still exacted justice in some way….consequences.

Well that is true, because when the fall took place, God had the solution already sorted….
Isa 55:11 tells us…..
”So my word that goes out of my mouth will be.
It will not return to me without results,
But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight,
And it will have sure success in what I send it to do.”

God had a purpose in creating the physical Universe and in putting living beings upon our beautifully prepared planet. Making humans in his own image meant giving them his qualities because he was going to allow them the wonderful task of filling the earth with their children and, using the garden of Eden as a blueprint, transforming the whole planet into a beautiful paradise, for them to enjoy forever.

That all depends on how you define a “believer”…and whether you understand what redemption is…

And you would be correct…..I have never studied theology because theology is the study of religious (church) doctrine…..I am a Bible student and avoid theology like the plague. Theology is what created Christendom…the most disunited excuse for Christianity in existence….I am grateful not to be shackled by their phony doctrines and removed myself from that institution over 50 years ago. Bible study has given me the complete picture of why we are here, and where we are going in the future.
What you believe makes no sense to me….


If you say so….but let’s consider another verse that tells us something similar….

Rom 5:18-19….
”Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.” (ESV)

Is there a difference between the “many” and “all”? We know that sin was our inheritance because the Bible says so…and no one dodged that bullet except Jesus Christ…..it was the whole reason for his coming as our savior.

I have come across several places where "many" means "all" (see Rm 5.15)

So how many people did Jesus die for? All mankind…..but will all mankind be saved? That is not what the Bible says is it?

When Jesus comes as judge to separate the “sheep form the goats”….what happen to the “goats” as opposed to what happens to the ”sheep”?

You tell me.…Matt 25:31-46….

Based on your answers (rather, questions), and lack of years of Theological training, you are not the type of believer I desire to interact with. Rather than being skeptical about, you know need go be intimidated by them. I would recommend that you get busy growing in the Lord.

Regards

 

[St. SteVen]

"We support the biblical teaching that all people are born with inherited sin and are lost eternally."

I can not find one passage that states inherited sin makes someone destined to Hell.
I have argued out here before that sins have nothing to due with getting saved or being eternally condemned.

All sins have been paid for and all people are redeemed according to Peter, Paul, and John. But, redemption does not qualify one for salvation, a person needs to accept Christ to be saved. Children are not lost because they are not able to accept Christ.
Christ said that: And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Paul says: "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation."
Every sin you have committed was not put on your account. Each sin was imputed to Christ's account, and he paid the penalty for all sins on the Cross.

Agree. Good topic. Thanks.
How do you see this playing out in the final judgement/evaluation?
(I have my own thoughts on this) Let's compare notes. Thanks.

[

 

[KUWN]

That's the false doctrine of universalism which is what some believe who are on their way to hell as they are not born again believers.

I will let you off this time, but not again. Read 2 Pt 2:1 and ask yourself who are the redeemed in this verse. Other verses also support this doctrine of Redeemed. If you were a serious Bible student you would have known this. In other words, you need to be reading Systematic Theology books and commentaries. You seem a bit nervous to read them because you already know what you believe and you don't want to be corrected. This is the quintessence of arrogance.

 

[KUWN]

Agree. Good topic. Thanks.
How do you see this playing out in the final judgement/evaluation?
(I have my own thoughts on this) Let's compare notes. Thanks.

[

In the BEMA, where Christians are given rewards in the Rewards Ceremony (falsely called the Judgment Seat of Chris), no believer will be evaluated for his sins. I like to mention that to unbelievers that I witness to. I let them know the penalty of sin was paid for by Christ (2 Pt 2.1 and 1 John 2.2). Sins are not what a person is judged by, but simply put their works. For unbelievers, works is basically "good works" that the unbeliever has done to earn salvation. They will be shown that all their works will not earn them salvation. Salvation comes by faith in Christ. FYI, How much faith does it take to be saved. Answer: Any amount more than none at all. (remember the mustard seed faith?)

I really don't feel that I have address your question that well. Can you give me more information so I can concentrate on the subject.

 

[St. SteVen]

I really don't feel that I have address your question that well. Can you give me more information so I can concentrate on the subject.

I think we are reasonably close to each other in our understanding of this. Here is a way I use to explain one aspect of it.

Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

[

 

[KUWN]

That's not what Jesus said... Jesus said unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3)

That is no doubt true, but I don't see what that has to do with my comment.

 

[KUWN]

Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Yes, we are very close.

 

[KUWN]

That all depends on how you define a “believer”…and whether you understand what redemption is…

2 Pt 2.1

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes, we are very close.

Here are some key scriptures I use for support.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything,
as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 NIV
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32, 36
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 NIV
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

[

 

[ScottA]

"We support the biblical teaching that all people are born with inherited sin and are lost eternally."

I can not find one passage that states inherited sin makes someone destined to Hell.
I have argued out here before that sins have nothing to due with getting saved or being eternally condemned.

All sins have been paid for and all people are redeemed according to Peter, Paul, and John. But, redemption does not qualify one for salvation, a person needs to accept Christ to be saved. Children are not lost because they are not able to accept Christ.
Christ said that: And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Paul says: "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation."
Every sin you have committed was not put on your account. Each sin was imputed to Christ's account, and he paid the penalty for all sins on the Cross.

WHERE DID YOU GET THAT? I searched the Statement and it came back, "No results found."

If it is somewhere else, perhaps you could provide a link?

 

[KUWN]

Meaning, they shall not be spending eternity with the Lord so they'll be going to hell for eternity... unless they get born again and walk in agreement with the Lord during this life.

Just to let you know. You have added something to the Gospel. This is called works salvation. Any behavior that is required for salvation is a false Gospel.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Just to let you know. You have added something to the Gospel. This is called works salvation. Any behavior that is required for salvation is a false Gospel.

Are you not yourself adding to Scripture?
James 2:14-20, 24, 26….
“Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If any brothers or sisters are lacking clothing and enough food for the day, 16 yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.

18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?. . . .
You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone. . … .26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”

We need both….our works demonstrate our faith…..no one is admitted into the Kingdom of God (either as a ruler/priest, or as a subject of that rulership, without works to back up the words.

Claiming that you are saved……doesn’t mean that you are….(Matt 7:21-23)

 

[KUWN]

You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone.

You should have quoted a passage dealing with salvation, not sanctification.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I have come across several places where "many" means "all" (see Rm 5.15)

Matt 20:28….(ESV)
“even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Does it matter how many places where “many” appears to mean “all”? What does it mean in the big picture? Does the Bible contradict itself? It has to be one or the other, because these two options contradict.

What if “many” isn’t “all” and some are destined for destruction as Jesus himself said…what does it matter what you believe if Jesus taught differently? It just means wishful thinking on your part.
Wanting “many” to mean ”all” won’t make it so.

Based on your answers (rather, questions), and lack of years of Theological training, you are not the type of believer I desire to interact with. Rather than being skeptical about, you know need go be intimidated by them. I would recommend that you get busy growing in the Lord.

That is not unexpected when people are shown scripture that is contrary to what they want to believe…
what is “theological training”….it is indoctrination…not a thorough study of the entirety of Scripture, but the study of selected verses that appear to support what Christendom teaches….none of which are true. But unless you actually study the Bible, you will never know what it teaches.

2 Pt 2.1

When did 2 Peter 2:1 apply?
In Jesus parable of “the wheat and the weeds”, the devil sowed the weeds “while men were sleeping”….who are these men and when was this “sleeping” taking place?

Some have surmised that it was after the death of the apostles as they were acting as a restraint against this foretold apostasy which was already taking place towards the end of the first century…..

2 Thess 2:1, 3, 6-9….
”Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, . . . .And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. . . . .For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.“ (NASB)

The last apostle John was yet to pen his final letters, as well as his Revelation…..but after his death, Christianity did what Jesus said it would….satan produced a counterfeit Christianity and led the majority astray with the adoption of all manner of false doctrines and pagan customs woven into Scripture to justify it. What you identify as “theology” I identified long ago as false Christianity.

You should have quoted a passage dealing with salvation, not sanctification.

What is the purpose of sanctification if every one is saved?
The “weeds” of Jesus parable are not “saved”, but thrown into the fire for disposal. The reapers collect those “weeds” first, and leave the “wheat” to be gathered into the Master’s storehouse.

Do the “weeds” know that they are only fit for the fire? It seems as if they are so oblivious to their fate that they are completely unprepared for Christ’s rejection. (Matt 7:21-23)
Only a hated “few” will be found on “the road to life”. (Matt 7:13-14; John 15:18-21)

Your “theology” will lead you nowhere….perhaps it’s you who needs to follow your own advice….

 

[Dan Clarkston]

That is no doubt true, but I don't see what that has to do with my comment.

You falsely claimed.... "Did you know that there were no eternal consequences to Adam and Eve's sin?"

If that were true then there's no need to get born again... and that is believing that what Jesus said is a lie

What Adam and Eve did brought sin and darkness in to the world... and all that are born in to their world eventually commit sin which is why one must be born again to enter in to the Lord's Kingdom.

So, based on what Jesus said... your statement is false and contradicts what Jesus said.

Just to let you know. You have added something to the Gospel. This is called works salvation. Any behavior that is required for salvation is a false Gospel.

Ah ye olde "we can live in sin and still, be saved" heresy is back!

This comes from those that reject the whole counsel of God and instead only choose to believe a few happy verses as they have been indoctrinated by false teachers such as John Calvin, Martin Luther, and of course the catholic cult.

Go ahead... live in disobedience to the Lord... walk after the flesh.... and
see which direction you go when you croak someday

Top reasons why OSAS is not true and is actually heresy

Romans 11:21,22
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Romans 2:7-11
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (NOT in our own strength - see Philippians 4:13)

1 Peter 1:14-17
As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

John 15:2
Every branch IN ME me that beareth not fruit He taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Matthew 7:16-21
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 8:35
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

James 5:19,20
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Only those led by the Spirit are the sons of God (Romans 8:14)

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

If OSAS was actually true, the Lord wouldn't be saying what He says in 2 Corinthians 13:5

But... the reprobates will of course continue being cherry pickers who choose to reject the whole counsel of God believing that somethings the Lord says in His Word are... LIES!