Limited atonement !

[brightfame52]

@Huperetes

Limited atonement is contradicted by scripture:

You say that because you deceivd friend.

 

[Nancy]

Rom 5:18 is limited to the elect, they are the same many in Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And if you notice the all were made righteous/ or Justified. Its only the elect

The KJV says ALL, (did you search through all the modern bibles to find what fits your "doctrine"?) not many and if you were right it would be saying plainly that only the ELECT can be made righteous. Your default answer is always "you just don't understand". Please.

 

[Triumph1300]

I cant wait

Dangerous statement in that context.
You might remember that some time in the future.

 

[quietthinker]

The truth of limited atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it. See 1 Cor 15:3. It refers specifically to the Death of Christ on the Cross, which death fully satisfied the law and justice of God for not all human beings but only for a certain group, the elect of God, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now let's get one thing understood, when i speak of limited atonement, i don't mean by any means that Christ atoning death is limited in its power, but that its limited in that it doesn't cover or apply to everyone, but only applies to and covers the elect or chosen of God or the Church of God in Christ, or Gods Sheep. Jn 10

You have not understood the character of God even while it is on full display in Jesus.

 

[Nancy]

Limited atonement is taught plainly in scripture !

Even though the natural man will attempt to explain away the truth of God as to who Christ specifically came to saved through His blood, yet the testimony of God is true and all men liars.

That Christs death is limited to only a certain segment of men is seen here , a clear statement limiting the recipients of His Death, the Angelic heavenly testimony here Matt 1:20-21

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.


21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

His People here is another way of saying His Elect/Sheep !

Here is a cross reference of Matthew 1:20-21

John 1:29
"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

Does world here mean terra firma, or people? Does the dirt sin??

Romans 5:18
“Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

Does the word "all men" mean He was kidding? And, the free gift was only for "some men"??

Seems it takes some crazy strong faith to believe what you teach. Be careful as you can never know for sure, you could be kidding yourself and can only hope you are saved.

Why is it that you and those like you seem to be downright giddy that the large majority will burn in hell over nothing but God's whim. Sad.

John 12:32​

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN unto me.”

Jesus is God Himself so, I do not see some, or elect here I see ALL MEN. And we KNOW it is not His will that any perish, and that is a perfect example of free will because we know that not ALL MEN will accept this free gift.

Yes certain men were raised up for evil, because they always were, and God uses them for His purposes because He knew the end from the beginning. Certain men will be honored above others like the martyrs and the Apostles and, I believe ALL saved Christians are the "elect". But hey, to each their own.

 

[Ritajanice]

John 3​

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King James Version​

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3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Seems it takes some crazy strong faith to believe what you teach. Be careful as you can never know for sure, you could be kidding yourself and can only hope you are saved.

Wow!...should you be accusing another of not being saved?..or hoping that they are saved?

Can you explain what saved means please ?..plus what in you ,knows that it’s saved?

The Bible doesn’t connect us or reconcile us back to God, The Spirit does that, in order for us to be reconciled/ right before God...our spirit must be birthed by the Living Spirit, “ PERMANENTLY “?...what do you think Born Again of imperishable / incorruptible seed means?...once again @Nancy ...I’m just looking for a discussion in the Spirit?...not looking to argue as you seem to be doing with Brightfame...

You have told me on a post that I talk a lot of nonsense?...or words to that affect....how do you know that you dont?...why not discuss in a respectful manner , ...I’m not looking for an argument, I’m looking for a discussion in the Spirit?

By whose Living testimony do we know that our spirit has been Born Again?

Only God can birth our spirit, therefore I guess it’s up to him on who he draws to His Son, would you call that limited atonement?

You can’t birth yourself into the Spirit of Christ, that can only come by Living divine heart revelation?...

Flesh gives birth to flesh.

Spirit gives birth to spirit?....that is a supernatural act, that only the Living Spirit can do?

@brightfame52 ..I copied and pasted this from you, on another topic, Amen, if one’s spirit isn’t Born Again then how can you possibly know God in Spirit, we can’t...

You posted this.

Man needs to be born again before he can believe the Gospel, otherwise man is dead in sin. By nature man in his best state is altogether vanity Ps 39:5,11


RJ says...our spirit must be supernaturally birthed, by Gods Living Witness/ Testimony, the Holy Spirit....of course one can read a Bible and get to know God by reading the word...whereas a Born Again knows God/ Jesus in their spirit, why, because it’s Born Again/ regenerated/ Alive in Christ/ Born Of The Spirit....Jesus already explained to Nicodemus how we are Born Of The Spirit.....the Spirit Of God is everywhere, you never know the time, place or hour that Spirit gives birth to spirit.....because it’s by Gods will...not man’s will...

.

 

[shepherdsword]

@Huperetes



You say that because you deceivd friend.

We all see through a glass darkly but the scriptures are pretty clear on this issue

 

[Ritajanice]

We all see through a glass darkly but the scriptures are pretty clear on this issue

Hi shepherdsword...Can you post some scripture, where scripture is clear on the atonement?

Many thanks...as I’m pretty confused on the subject,...I like to stay open minded...and wait for the Lord to speak to my heart/ spirit on the subject of limited atonement.

I see a lot of to and from arguing...takes me back to when I would argue until the cows came home, ..aren’t we as Born Again supposed to be growing into the maturity of Christ, being conformed into Jesus image, bearing the fruit of the Spirit?( Not saying that you aren’t mature, I’m just reading a lot of arguing from one to another, )

 

[shepherdsword]

Hi shepherdsword...Can you post some scripture, where scripture is clear on the atonement?

Many thanks...as I’m pretty confused on the subject,...I like to stay open minded...and wait for the Lord to speak to my heart/ spirit on the subject of limited atonement.

I see a lot of to and from arguing...takes me back to when I would argue until the cows came home, ..aren’t we as Born Again supposed to be growing into the maturity of Christ, being conformed into Jesus image, bearing the fruit of the Spirit?( Not saying that you aren’t mature, I’m just reading a lot of arguing from one to another, )

Here are a few:
1 Jn 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Rv 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on him should not perish

Ro 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Ro 11:15

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

The scripture is very clear that limited atonement isn't a valid position. Calvin came up with it when he was only 22 years old.

 

[Ritajanice]

Here are a few:
1 Jn 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Rv 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Jesus had to die and be resurrected to take away our sins, because he was a perfect representation of God, ..we need more than that, our spirit also must be Born Again?...do you agree?

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on him should not perish

Ro 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

How do we come into the righteousness of Christ..how are we clothed in his righteousness?..

Ro 11:15

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

The scripture is very clear that limited atonement isn't a valid position. Calvin came up with it when he was only 22 years old.

Thank you.

Can you now explain why Jesus tells us that we must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God?

Only those who are Born Again will see the Kingdom Of God...by the will of God...so I guess that would make it limited atonement on who Jesus died for..only the Born Again?...who were already chosen and predestined to become Born Again before they were even born...does that make sense to you?

John 3:3​

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King James Version​

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3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


Can you also explain what you have been saved from?..plus how do you know that you are saved, by whose testimony / Witness are you saved?...

 

[shepherdsword]

Thank you.

Can you now explain why Jesus tells us that we must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God?

Only those who are Born Again will see the Kingdom Of God...by the will of God...so I guess that would make it limited atonement on who Jesus died for..only the Born Again?...who were already chosen and predestined to become Born Again before they were even born...does that make sense to you?

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. However, many refuse to have faith in him and are never born again. This is a decision on their part...It was always God's will that all would be saved:

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The reason some are not is because they choose not to be

 

[Ritajanice]

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. However, many refuse to have faith in him and are never born again. This is a decision on their part..

Can you show me in scripture where it says, that we can either receive or refuse becoming Born Of The Spirit?

That is not how Jesus tells Nicodemus we are Born Of The Spirit...can you please tell me what saved means and how do you know that you are saved?

.It was always God's will that all would be saved:

We are Born Again by the will of God...I had no say in the matter, when I was Born Of The Spirit, I was chosen and predestined to become Born Again.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The reason some are not is because they choose not to be

If you are saved, then you should be able to explain what in you has been saved?

Keep quoting snippets of scripture saves no one....the Living Spirit is the one who births our spirit...we can’t perform that supernatural Living Spiritual act...

How would you know that God is a Mighty Living Spirit?

Or that Jesus walked the earth, we can all read about God and Jesus in the inspired word...we also need to know them in our spirit, that’s why our spirit must be Born Again...

A Born Again communicates with God from within their spirit...the Bible confirms this, we are spirit children of God...we read the Bible, because the Spirit leads us through the word...we are not Bible children we are spirit children, our spirit has been reconciled back to our Spirit Father God.

 

[Ritajanice]

The reason some are not is because they choose not to be

Sorry, that is not Biblical...we don’t choose to be Born Of The Spirit...that is a supernatural divine act that only the Living Spirit can perform when...Spirit gives birth to spirit?

How can I not choose to be Born Of The Spirit?..where does it say that we can choose to become a spirit child of God?

Are you understanding my posts?

I believe that only the Born Again are reconciled back to their Spirit Father God...therefore it’s by the will of God who becomes Born Of The Spirit...therefore It’s up to the Spirit Of God who he draws to Jesus and births in the Spirit..it’s not up to man....therefore will the whole world become Born Again....not according to God’s inspired word they won’t.

We are Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed...where does that Living seed manifest itself in us?

God is Spirit we learn to communicate with God from within our spirit..as our spirit is Born Again...

 

[shepherdsword]

Can you show me in scripture where it says, that we can either receive or refuse becoming Born Of The Spirit?

Can you explain any of the other verses I posted for you?

This shows that man can be willingly ignorant:

2 Pe 3:5
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

This shows that whosever will may come:

Rv 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Now, before you ask another question please offer a rebuttal to the verses already posted. That would be much appreciated!

That is not how Jesus tells Nicodemus we are Born Of The Spirit...can you please tell me what saved means and how do you know that you are saved?

We are Born Again by the will of God...I had no say in the matter, when I was Born Of The Spirit, I was chosen and predestined to become Born Again.

If you are saved, then you should be able to explain what in you has been saved?

Keep quoting snippets of scripture saves no one....the Living Spirit is the one who births our spirit...we can’t perform that supernatural Living Spiritual act...

How would you know that God is a Mighty Living Spirit?

Or that Jesus walked the earth, we can all read about God and Jesus in the inspired word...we also need to know them in our spirit, that’s why our spirit must be Born Again...

A Born Again communicates with God from within their spirit...the Bible confirms this, we are spirit children of God...we read the Bible, because the Spirit leads us through the word...we are not Bible children we are spirit children, our spirit has been reconciled back to our Spirit Father God.

The issue isn't about being born again. I agree with the bible on that. The issue is if atonement is limited to some super elect club or available to all.

 

[Ritajanice]

Can you explain any of the other verses I posted for you?

This shows that man can be willingly ignorant:

How can a Born Again be “ willingly “ ignorant?...when we are being taught by the Spirit to communicate in our spirit with God?....we are “ spirit “ children, when our spirit becomes Born Again...who do you think leads me through scripture to understand the inspired word?

We communicate with God in our spirit, the Bible confirms this.....the Bible is not the Living Spirit Of God?

2 Pe 3:5
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

What has this scripture got to do with being Born Of The Spirit?

Once Born Again always Born Again?..our spirit knows it’s Born Again, by Gods Living Witness...the Bible is Gods confirmation of His Living word that is Alive and Active, it knows and penetrates the heart...His Spirit is Alive And Active in His spirit children, they are forever being conformed intoJesus image...

This shows that whosever will may come:

Rv 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

That is not how Jesus explains how we are Born Of The Spirit...we are Born Again once...our spirit knows that it’s Born Again, ...without the Living testimony/ witness of The Holy Spirit, how would I know that my spirit is Born Again?

Now, before you ask another question please offer a rebuttal to the verses already posted.

Rebuttal of your own understanding of scripture I refute, yes, as you can’t answer any of my Spirit questions I put before you...so yes, I refute your understanding of what you understand scripture to be saying....all you do is post scripture, with no Living testimony on said scripture....only imo what you believe it to be saying....where is your “ heart” knowledge?..what does God say about seeking him out with all of our heart?....our heart/ spirit yearns to know the Living Spirit Of God more and more each day..why, because our spirit is Born Again, reconciled back to God in our spirit...

There is no point in quoting scripture if you can’t back it up with heart/ spirit knowledge...where do you think heart/ spirit knowledge comes from? The Bible or the Living Spirit Of God....?

I have asked you countless times, what are you saved from?...you should know what that means from within your spirit man?...and what in you has been Born Again?

That would be much appreciated!

You are posting scripture..from your own understanding......the scripture you post has got nothing to do with being Born Again....do you actually understand what being Born Again means?

Do you understand that God speaks through his children..?

The issue isn't about being born again. I agree with the bible on that.

What do you mean you agree on the Bible on that?

If you are Born Again by whose Living Witness do you know this, I’m not talking about the inspired word.I’m talking about God’s Living Witness, who testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children?

Does the Bible testify with our spirit that we are Gods children...or does the Living Spirit testify with our spirit that we are Gods children?

The Bible confirms the testimony from the Living Spirit, ..we are Born Of The Living Spirit, a Living seed that takes up residence in our spirit/ hearts, permanently?

The issue is if atonement is limited to some super elect club or available to all.

That is not what the word of God says..Jesus says that we must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God...therefore it is Gods choice on who become Born Again and his word does say that those were chosen and predestined by him, to become Born Again.

Also you keep saying that you are SAVED...which means what..if you say that you are “SAVED “ then you should be able to explain what that means..so far you haven’t.?

What are you saved from and how do you know that you are saved?....reading and posting scripture does not mean that we are saved...you need a Living testimony/ witness to know that you are saved...I’ve noticed that my spirit questions have gone unanswered...sigh.

 

[shepherdsword]

How can a Born Again be “ willingly “ ignorant?...when we are being taught by the Spirit to communicate in our spirit with God?....we are “ spirit “ children, when our spirit becomes Born Again...who do you think leads me through scripture to understand the inspired word?

We communicate with God in our spirit, the Bible confirms this.....the Bible is not the Living Spirit Of God?

What has this scripture got to do with being Born Of The Spirit?

Once Born Again always Born Again?..our spirit knows it’s Born Again, by Gods Living Witness...the Bible is Gods confirmation of His Living word that is Alive and Active, it knows and penetrates the heart...His Spirit is Alive And Active in His spirit children, they are forever being conformed intoJesus image...


That is not how Jesus explains how we are Born Of The Spirit...we are Born Again once...our spirit knows that it’s Born Again, ...without the Living testimony/ witness of The Holy Spirit, how would I know that my spirit is Born Again?

Rebuttal of your own understanding of scripture I refute, yes, as you can’t answer any of my Spirit questions I put before you...so yes, I refute your understanding of what you understand scripture to be saying....all you do is post scripture, with no Living testimony on said scripture....only imo what you believe it to be saying....where is your “ heart” knowledge?..what does God say about seeking him out with all of our heart?....our heart/ spirit yearns to know the Living Spirit Of God more and more each day..why, because our spirit is Born Again, reconciled back to God in our spirit...

There is no point in quoting scripture if you can’t back it up with heart/ spirit knowledge...where do you think heart/ spirit knowledge comes from? The Bible or the Living Spirit Of God....?

I have asked you countless times, what are you saved from?...you should know what that means from within your spirit man?...and what in you has been Born Again?



You are posting scripture..from your own understanding......the scripture you post has got nothing to do with being Born Again....do you actually understand what being Born Again means?

Do you understand that God speaks through his children..?

What do you mean you agree on the Bible on that?

If you are Born Again by whose Living Witness do you know this, I’m not talking about the inspired word.I’m talking about God’s Living Witness, who testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children?

Does the Bible testify with our spirit that we are Gods children...or does the Living Spirit testify with our spirit that we are Gods children?

The Bible confirms the testimony from the Living Spirit, ..we are Born Of The Living Spirit, a Living seed that takes up residence in our spirit/ hearts, permanently?



That is not what the word of God says..Jesus says that we must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God...therefore it is Gods choice on who become Born Again and his word does say that those were chosen and predestined by him, to become Born Again.

Also you keep saying that you are SAVED...which means what..if you say that you are “SAVED “ then you should be able to explain what that means..so far you haven’t.?

What are you saved from and how do you know that you are saved?....reading and posting scripture does not mean that we are saved...you need a Living testimony/ witness to know that you are saved...I’ve noticed that my spirit questions have gone unanswered...sigh.

What has any of this to do with limited atonement?

 

[Ritajanice]

What has any of this to do with limited atonement?

Everything..if you don’t understand what it means to be “ Born Again “ by the will of God...how can you understand limited atonement.....God chooses who becomes Born Again by His Spirit.

Unlike Brightfame..I have no idea who becomes Born Again by the will of God.....does God limit who he chooses to birth in the Spirit...I have no idea, who or when he births....I wouldn’t like to say..whose will enter the Kingdom Of God..only God knows that..I don’t and neither does anyone else imo.

I don’t like to play at being “ GOD”..I know my place...and I ain’t God and have no authority on who enters the Kingdom Of God.

Don’t limit God to the Bible..he is a Living Spirit...who knows what happens at the end of our life or on our death bed.only God knows that...all I know is that God is Just and merciful..he looks at the heart.

Plus we too will stand before him one day.

 

[shepherdsword]

Everything..if you don’t understand what it means to be “ Born Again “ by the will of God...how can you understand limited atonement.....God chooses who becomes Born Again by His Spirit.

Being born again is a resurrection of a dead spirit that was destroyed by sin, within man. It is by this means we have union with Christ and thereby God. However, God chooses who will be born again as a result of the free will choice man makes to have union with him through faith. It is not a means by which he excludes some by his own divine choice.

Unlike Brightfame..I have no idea who becomes Born Again by the will of God.....does God limit who he chooses to birth in the Spirit...I have no idea, who or when he births....I wouldn’t like to say..whose will enter the Kingdom Of God..only God knows that..I don’t and neither does anyone else imo.

Whosoever believes in him will be born again.

 

[Ritajanice]

Being born again is a resurrection of a dead spirit that was destroyed by sin, within man.

That is not how the inspired word says that we are Born Of The Spirit......resurrection of a dead spirit?....how can my spirit have been dead as a non Born Again that I once was...if I was still living and breathing?

My belief is...we are alienated from the Spirit of God ...that was until God decided to birth my spirit into His...Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed....a Living seed that penetrates the heart of his child, the Spirit manifests himself in our spirit/ taken up permanent residence in our spirit...hence being Born Of The Spirit.

It is by this means we have union with Christ and thereby God. However, God chooses who will be born again as a result of the free will choice man makes to have union with him through faith. It is not a means by which he excludes some by his own divine choice.

That’s your belief and it’s not biblical..you add to the word of God.



Jesus has explained in the inspired word how we are Born Of The Spirit...one never know the day or time as the Spirit is like the wind..you never know when Spirit will give birth to our spirit.

Whosoever believes in him will be born again.

You can’t believe in Jesus or God, unless the Spirit gives birth to our spirit..for there is where we know God ,in our spirit,that is where he reveals himself to us, via his Spirit.

The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God...not by man’s will...by the testimony of the Living Holy Spirit.

Our spirit must be Born Again to know the Living God, we communicate with God in our spirit...God is not a Bible...I needed the testimony of Gods Living Spirit..to truly know him in my heart...that is where we are called to seek him out...my heart yearns to know more of the heart of God, The Bible confirms this.

We know God in our heart...as we grow in faith and maturity..we learn to believe in what he says and we learn to trust him from within our spirit....

I believe in the Spirit Of God because my spirit is Born Again...that I have NEVER once doubted...Born Again of imperishable seed that liveth and abideth forever.....once Born Of The Spirit...we belong to the Spirit Of God and no other...in the world...no longer of the world...we are in the righteousness of Christ...being conformed into Jesus image..Praise God.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus prayer indicates limited atonement !

Jn 17:9

9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Now why did Christ refuse to pray for everyone ? Because all were not His that had been given to Him by His Father like His Sheep had been Jn 10:27-30


27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The same as in Jn 17 :2

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Since Christ didn't pray for them, then He didn't die for them as He did His Sheep ! 1