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No. I believe in the POWER of the Gospel and the POWER of the Holy Spirit to bring souls to the Savior. Evidently you do not.
ACTS 2
THE GOSPEL PREACHED
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. (So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom 10:17)
SINNERS CONVICTED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (Wherefore, as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness...Heb 3:7,8)
SINNERS COMMANDED TO REPENT AND BELIEVE
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Spirit was given only to those who obeyed the Gospel (as noted above). And it is only those who receive the Spirit who are born of the Spirit.
All sinners are COMMANDED to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 17:30). Therefore there must be obedience to the Gospel. But they have not all obeyed the Gospel: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16)
... But you have to have faith first, right? Which means it is YOUR faith, not the faith given by the Holy Spirit, right? If so, then you are saved by your works, your attaining of faith is what saved you. I believe that faith is the gift of the Spirit, which is why salvation is of God, and not of my attaining faith. What you wrote above is partially true, it just doesn't follow the premise that YOU attain your own faith. Up until the part where the Spirit is only given to those who believe... then what is the point of the spirit? If I can believe all on my own, then certainly I can do good works on my own right? If not, then why? Does not the same logic apply to doing good as attaining faith?
Even after showing you that saving faith comes from the power of the Gospel (Rom 10:17), you refuse to believe the Word of God. You (and others of your persuasion) simply do not believe God, do not believe God's Word, do not believe in the power of the Gospel. THAT IS PURE UNBELIEF.
ROMANS 10
1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Did you get this: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God? Do you understand what God says here? Do you even know that Paul calls the Gospel "The POWER OF GOD unto salvation" (Rom 1:16)? Do you know that Peter calls the Gospel the seed which brings about the New Birth (1 Pet 1:23-25)?
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
This is where faith comes from, where it finds its origin. This is why we can understand when the bible speaks of faith, it speaks of God's gift, not man's attainment.
Flesh = mind/soul. We only have the mind of Christ when we censor our thoughts and imaginations (walk in the Spirit).
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Have you ever been baptized in the Holy Spirit. Can you give us your testimony? For me there was a night and day transformation of power over my thoughts and actions. Our desires are what we think about. Our desires are from our nature. Either the sin nature or as a new creature in Christ. IOW, unsaved or saved.
Let me ask you something personal. I know you haven't always been Calvinist, and I sometimes see a spark of non-Calvinist thought seep through in your posts that I like. When you see Galatians 5:19-21 do you believe the Calvinist belief that not inheriting the kingdom of God is merely a loss of rewards in our present walk, but you still inherit the kingdom of heaven? Or do you believe there is a distinct difference between the Spirit and the flesh, and those of the Spirit receive salvation, but those who choose darkness and the flesh do not? And was Paul also saying the same thing in 1 Corinthians 6 about those who do not inherit the kingdom of God? Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. Do they also just lose rewards?
Technically, I'm not a Calvinist but think the first three of the five points reflect what scripture says about Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, and Limited Atonement. (Calvin only taught the first two points).
God Baptized me in the Holy Spirit before I believed in Christ. It was this experience that made a believer out of me.
The kingdom of God and Kingdom of heaven are interchangeable terms. The kingdom is here now but only the born again can see it. (there is no future millennium, but only Christ's return and the end of this world and our entrance into the New Heavens and earth in the resurrection/rapture on the last day).
We have the Holy Spirit within but battle the flesh until we die. We can live above external sin and resist internal sins of the flesh. These remain temptation and not sin unless we indulge them. I arrived at my present learning apart from any church affiliation, doing years of independent study on my own. If I omitted anything, please mention it.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Though we don't agree on everything, I do agree with you most of the time. I too am not a denominationalist and study on my own.
I think I did ask you about total depravity and asked if you or Calvinists believe we remain totally depraved. Now I can only remember asking the question, but not your answer. Can you repeat it for me? In the past I think Calvinists believe we remain totally depraved, thus the sins we keep committing (because of being depraved) are forgiven. I'm totally against this teaching. Like you, I believe we are only committing sin if the temptation is allowed to reach that far.
I want to hear your complete testimony of events that lead you to Christ, and why you believe you received the Spirit first.
The gift here is salvation (eternal life) -- thus "saved by grace" -- but you are deliberately changing the meaning to fit your theology. And you are also IGNORING Romans 10. That is a very serious matter.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
Here we have Christ as the gift, and we know that He Himself is our salvation, and through Him we have everlasting or eternal life.
So rather than accepting Scripture and believing it, you would sooner double down on your false belief that saving faith is a gift. Because you think God elects some to salvation and others to damnation.
But here is the proof that it is not. Since God desires the salvation of all men, He would give this *gift* of saving faith to absolutely everyone, and the whole world would be saved. And since only a minority of people are saved, that is the clearest evidence that saving faith is not a gift, but the result of hearing and believing the Gospel.
Please explain where salvation is mentioned in this passage. How can the it be refering to something that hasnt even been mentioned? With that logic, I could say that 'it' is clearly a farrari.
Secondly, I am not ignoring any passage. I am simply letting scripture interpret scripture. So what is said in Romans must be read through thr lense of the whole of scripture. This verse is very plain, and I find it ironic that you would mention twisting scripture, then say the verse is speaking of something it doesn't even mention.
Men do not have a free will. A free will is one thag is never influenced or effected by any outside stimulant, and humans do not fit into this category. We have a fallen will, incapable of choosing good in the spiritual realm. I am very sorry if the church and its followers today would rather cling onto self-salvation than giving God all the glory, and if we refuse to take time to know what the WHOLE of scripture says, not just little misunderstood blurps here and there. Study the WHOLE of Scripture, see what thr whole book talks about, and you will see that the basic premise is God saves sinners, not sinners save themselves.
I know people are offended that God would choose some and not others, so they feel that God wouldn't be just if he did not extend the same chance to everyone.
1. This is completely false. It is not God's fault that man fell in the first place, so it never was a question of fault
2. God is fair and just to let us all die. God has no obligation towards any one of us, therefore even if he decided not to regenerate a single soul, he would be just.
3. The goal of your salvation IS NOT YOU GETTING TO HEAVEN! GOD DOES NOT SAVE SINNERS FOR THE GOAL OF THEM GETTING TO HEAVEN. This is not the gospel message. Yes you shall be saved if God humbles you, but why? For his glory. This is the ultimate reason behind salvation: God's glory. What a selfish motive to pat someone on the back and say "good call, buddy,". We make salvation out to be just another choice in a long line of choices I will make in my life. Then we wonder why the vast majority dont go to church or actually commit themselves. This is the danger of this heresy.
If God wanted the whole world to be saved, It would be. But since it is of God start to finish, Your statement is proof that it CANNOT be of man. What man in his right mind would turn down a free ticket to heaven? A free ticket to paradise? Any wise man would surly take this free gift of faith: so why dont they? Why is it that so few wise and rich and powerful men accept a free gift? If there is one thing rich people like, it is receiving something for free. What you have proven is not the fact that man chooses, but rather that God MUST be the one that chooses, on account of the seeming total blindness to a blatantly good deal by men.
If man chooses God you inevitably rob him of his glory. If you must first attain faith before the spirit will come into your life, you have saved yourself. It was your CORRECT CHOICE of Christ's Blood, not the blood itself that saved you. You now come into Gods presence with merit, with something other than the blood of christ to plead. Now when God asks how do you plead, you plead, "I chose the blood of christ." I chose. Not "Christ rescued me!" , But rather "I chose."
The problem here is not scripture; If you would read every verse you quoted throughnthe provided lens of "By grace are ye saved through faith, and it is not of yourself, but the gift of God." (Where, i might add, salvation is never even mention... that must be you twisting it to fit your theology i guess....), every verse you quoted becomes clear. The bible is a book made to humble man, and show him his need, and that is exactly what thoses and every other scripture does. The problem is not the word, but rather man trying to understand why God operates the way he does. It confuses you, you see contradiction of will and soverignty, and to be honest, sometimes so do I. But we must let go of our attempts to fashion a god that WE BELIEVE is fair, and accept who god claims to be in Scripture.
Here's a link to my testimony.
Paul speaks of a battle between our flesh (mind/soul) and our spirit baptized in the Holy Spirit. As we grow in Christ we renew our mind (flesh) with the washing of the word. And new holy habits develop. So it is rare for us to sin outwardly, but we still battle impure thoughts and imaginations. These are not sins, but remain temptations so long as we do not indulge them. But we cannot habitually live in sin, and always overcome because of the New Birth/Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Hebrews 12:2
Rather than reading Scripture and believing it, you are hiding in your self salvation turtle shell of Me making the right call and being smart by attaining my own faith
H. Richard
Well-Known Member
H. Richard
Well-Known Member
**
Let us cut out the fencing and state what we are saying.
I still sin in my flesh and I know it. And acknowledge it to God. But you are deceiving yourself if you think you no longer sin in the flesh.
I am saying that God has created a salvation that sins sinners (the ungodly). It doesn't make their flesh sinless nor does it give them the power to not sin in the flesh. I have been SET FREE of this body of sin. It still sins but thanks to God it is covered by the shed blood of His Son which is a FREE GIFT of salvation.
AS for you, since you have the power to not sin in the flesh you can proclaim your self-righteousness to the world and say """LOOK AT ME I NO LONGER SIN IN THE FLESH"".
IMHO you are only fooling yourself and sending people to hell. I will post a stoy that really happened and it was tragic. But I bet you won't care about it.
H. Richard
Well-Known Member
A tragic story:
It has been my lot to find out, first hand, the results of those that teach sinless perfection in the flesh; that God changes our sinful flesh nature. The result of this teaching causes many to give up hope and turn away from Jesus.
When I was about 25 years old I worked for a factory in Chattanooga, Tennessee. One night when I was working the third shift the security guard came and told me that a man was at the gate wanting to talk to me.
It was a fellow worker at the plant who worked on the first shift and he was very distraught about Christianity. He said he wanted to be a Christian but it just didn't seem to work for him because he didn‘t feel he had changed.
I found that he had been talking to some Christians who were telling him that if he was a Christian he would stop sinning; that he would be changed. He wanted to stop sinning but said he couldn't because he still had those fleeting thoughts of sin in his mind and, of course he was told that if you think it you have done it. He wanted to know what I believed about it.
I told him that Jesus came to save those that could not save themselves and keep the Law of Moses; to do for them what they could not do for themselves, that to believe in Jesus is to believe in what He did on the cross and to believe and trust that it has saved you.
I also told him that I still sin (I was being honest) and that everyone sins. He said what he had been told by other Christians, that if he sinned he was not a Christian and that I must not be one either since I said I still sinned. A week later this young man killed himself.
It is obvious that this young man had emotional problems. It is also obvious that the Holy Spirit was convicting him of his sins so that he would turn to Jesus. But I saw, first hand, what the message of “”“change“”” does to those that are seeking to be a Christian. To me it is a self righteous message. It reminds me of what Jesus said in Matt. 23: 11 13.
Matt 23:11 13 (NKJ)
11 "But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 "And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
As for me if I show anything to the world let it be the love of Jesus Christ for mankind and what He has done on the cross for all that will place their belief and trust (faith) in Him. Let me show where I have placed my faith.
Now if anyone wishes to say that I should have told him I no longer sin in the flesh because God has changed me, then I would be bearing false witness just as those that did it to him and those that do it today. The only change for a child of God is that Jesus has imputed righteousness to their Spirit by paying for all their sins of the flesh on a cross. The sinful nature of the flesh remains.
Rom 7:24 25
4 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV
1 John 1:8 (NKJ)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
I firmly believe that when David wrote Psalms 23:4 the words “shadow of death” meant the judgment for his own sins of the flesh which he continued to do.
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
H Richard
It has been my lot to find out, first hand, the results of those that teach sinless perfection in the flesh; that God changes our sinful flesh nature. The result of this teaching causes many to give up hope and turn away from Jesus.
When I was about 25 years old I worked for a factory in Chattanooga, Tennessee. One night when I was working the third shift the security guard came and told me that a man was at the gate wanting to talk to me.
It was a fellow worker at the plant who worked on the first shift and he was very distraught about Christianity. He said he wanted to be a Christian but it just didn't seem to work for him because he didn‘t feel he had changed.
I found that he had been talking to some Christians who were telling him that if he was a Christian he would stop sinning; that he would be changed. He wanted to stop sinning but said he couldn't because he still had those fleeting thoughts of sin in his mind and, of course he was told that if you think it you have done it. He wanted to know what I believed about it.
I told him that Jesus came to save those that could not save themselves and keep the Law of Moses; to do for them what they could not do for themselves, that to believe in Jesus is to believe in what He did on the cross and to believe and trust that it has saved you.
I also told him that I still sin (I was being honest) and that everyone sins. He said what he had been told by other Christians, that if he sinned he was not a Christian and that I must not be one either since I said I still sinned. A week later this young man killed himself.
It is obvious that this young man had emotional problems. It is also obvious that the Holy Spirit was convicting him of his sins so that he would turn to Jesus. But I saw, first hand, what the message of “”“change“”” does to those that are seeking to be a Christian. To me it is a self righteous message. It reminds me of what Jesus said in Matt. 23: 11 13.
Matt 23:11 13 (NKJ)
11 "But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 "And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
As for me if I show anything to the world let it be the love of Jesus Christ for mankind and what He has done on the cross for all that will place their belief and trust (faith) in Him. Let me show where I have placed my faith.
Now if anyone wishes to say that I should have told him I no longer sin in the flesh because God has changed me, then I would be bearing false witness just as those that did it to him and those that do it today. The only change for a child of God is that Jesus has imputed righteousness to their Spirit by paying for all their sins of the flesh on a cross. The sinful nature of the flesh remains.
Rom 7:24 25
4 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV
1 John 1:8 (NKJ)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
I firmly believe that when David wrote Psalms 23:4 the words “shadow of death” meant the judgment for his own sins of the flesh which he continued to do.
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
H Richard
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Thanks for sharing this example. I begin every day in prayer asking God to forgive me for what I am. So this wretchedness is my starting point seeking God's grace and power over sin. So while I believe Christians can arrive at a place where we don't break the Ten Commandments outwardly, we are plagued inwardly by the thoughts and imaginations of the flesh/mind that harass us throughout the day, and even in our dreams at times. But in the power of the Holy Spirit, we can keep these temptations at bay where they do not become sin unless we indulge them.
Here's my approach to walking in the Spirit.
“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.” (2 Corinthians 10:5–6)
We censor every impure thought or imagination. And change the channel in our thinking on any thought that does not conform to obedience to Christ.
And we replace it with:
“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” (Philippians 4:8)
Knowing Jesus is God and God is love. Jesus is lord of our lives when love rules our thoughts and actions.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Unfortunate story and you blame overcomers like me. But they are the ones who truly tried to help him. BTW 1 John 1:8 is not about Christians, but those BEFORE Christ and confessing their sin 1 John 1:9, the very next verse in context. Verse 7 is a Christian. Because you have no power within yourself, you could not guide him to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and receive power over the sins that plagued him. Instead, by your own admission, you left him in the same condition you were in. The blind leading the blind. You merely have a form of godliness, but deny the power. And I see by your previous post you believe the blood of Jesus merely covers our sin while we keep having no power over them. That is the vilest of false doctrines. But that is your experience, so you don't believe the glorious truths in Scripture, that seem hard to swallow for those who love darkness but also want to go to heaven. Your belief turns the grace of God into licentiousness. The TRUTH is Jesus takes away the sin nature. We are dead to sin. We have no desire to sin. Instead, we love righteousness. We are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. And we cannot sin because the seed of the Father is within us. You will have to start hating your sin if you ever want to get rid of it. But you don't. That is why you keep indulging. And you want others to feel comfortable in their sin also, so you feel justified. And then when it all goes terribly wrong you look outside to blame. Those who want to sin, do. Those who don't want to sin, God provides a way of escape and the power to make the right choices. When you hate your sin, then you can actually repent, and only then will you receive the Holy Spirit. Your doctrine is having your cake and eating it too. But what fellowship has light with darkness. Unfortunately there are whole denominations that teach this filth and are not dead to sin, but dead to Christ. He will say to them, depart from Me, I never knew you, you workers of wickedness. I'm sorry your friend is dead, but you are blaming the wrong people. They were the ones preaching the word to him. He didn't like the reproving. It is Satan that comes to steal, kill and destroy, but Jesus came to bring life, and life abundantly, as those people who tried to help him proclaimed when they proclaimed the truth. Those who love sin are of the devil. He is ultimately to blame.
2 Timothy 3: 1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Sinning and being covered while doing it is a fable, and those who love to sin gravitate toward false teachers, having itching ears.
Start over. Read the Word. And unlearn this false doctrine you've learned that is so prevalent in today's church causing those who stay in it to remain weak in their flesh.
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Zip, right over your head. But, from your Avatar, I can expect nothing else.
Don't you know that we can do nothing without God? But we have to want God MORE than we want our sin. Then and only then does God take away our sin.
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