While the full penalty for sins was paid at the cross, the application of that spiritual fact is only to those who obey the Gospel , i.e. repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore God now COMMANDS all men everywhere to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And when they do so their sins are forgiven. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (Acts 3:19)
LIMITED ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)
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Behold
Well-Known Member
That's True.
And once you do, God takes that Faith, gives you the New Birth, and you become a "new Creation In Christ".
Salvation is established.
Now, having Salvation, you go and "present your body a living sacrifice' and you get water baptized and you do good works because you have Salvation, not to try to keep it.
If He paid the sin penalty for all mankind, why do some die in their sins ? So thats a contradiction. Again if we say someone Christ died for dies in their sins in unbelief anyway, then thats saying Christs death in and of itself saved absolutely no one which is unbelief.
Christ applies the spiritual application as part of His saving a person. To say Christ doesnt apply Spiritual Salvation is saying He doesnt save from sin. He turns people away from their sins, in application Acts 3:26
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
You refuse to give Jesus the credit/ glory for the application of His Salvation !
enoch111
People can only repent and believe after the Spirit of God in the Name of Christ and for His Sake applies the redemption of Christ which effects repentance and Faith or Gospel Obedience 1 Pet 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
See that ? Sanctification of the Spirit UNTO OBEDIENCE, so its said Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him
In other words obeying Christ is the evidence God has given the one obeying the Holy Ghost which Sanctifies unto obedience. All this is the fruit of Christs death ! Application belongs to God friend
People can only repent and believe after the Spirit of God in the Name of Christ and for His Sake applies the redemption of Christ which effects repentance and Faith or Gospel Obedience 1 Pet 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
See that ? Sanctification of the Spirit UNTO OBEDIENCE, so its said Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him
In other words obeying Christ is the evidence God has given the one obeying the Holy Ghost which Sanctifies unto obedience. All this is the fruit of Christs death ! Application belongs to God friend
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well I do not wish to get into a nit picking contest with you over how the words are used!
If you read the NT you would know the world is not right with God and is still at war with God!
YOu will not find any place in Scripture that says Jesus forgave just our past sins. All our sins were forgiven and removed the moment we believed! People do not get born again, then unborn again, then born again, again
Once again you are making salvation based on the blood of Jesus and you maintaining a works based level. Paul in Galatians 1 condemned this as another gospel for it is another gospel and not he one Jesus gave to the church.
And I have what many call a very good understanding of the NT. I have been walking with the Lord for over 49 years and been a teacher of the Word for over 40. How about you?
Ah, but scripture says that the world was reconciled to God which means that both man and the world are no longer under the permanent curse of death by Adam. Now we know that all men will be raised. We also know that there will be a new heaven and a new earth. Christ gave life to the world. He renewed/recapitulated His original creation. None will be permanently dissolved by death. None of this happens in this dispensation but is the climax of this dispensation when Christ comes again.
find any text that says all our sins, past, present and future were all forgiven at the moment of belief. Obviously you do not use the Lord's Prayer. Here you have Jesus saying that unless you forgive those who transgress against you, HE WILL NOT FORGIVE YOUR SINS. That hardly fits your model. Also I John 1:9, then we have James 5:16, Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins, John 20:23, Matt 16:19. we have self judgement before communion - I Cor 11:28-31.
Being born again is not a physical birth. It is a relational birth. We enter into union/communion with Christ and it is NOT finite. Believers can enter and leave at will. Which is why we have all the warnings, exhortations to remain faithful. Abide in me, if one does not abide in me, I will not abide in him. We are exhorted not to quench the Holy Spirit.
If one denies me, I will deny him, You have the story of the branches being cut off from the root and burned. Who do you think he is speaking too. unbelievers? You have the unfaithful servant Luke 12:42-46. You cannot be an unbeliever and be throwon with the unbelievers. Christ explained on two parables and the both deal with the same topic, faithfulness to His Word, The parable of rthe sower is recorded in three gospels. The middle two examples are believers who fell by the wayside and were not saved.
There are just to many to cite, but it is quite obvious believers can become unbelievers. They can also repent and return and the example of that is the story of the Prodigal Son.
You maybe need to restudy and know the difference between the Law of Works, and the Law of faith. Paul, Peter, John clearly delineates them. One does not do them because one is SAVED because we are not saved in our present lives. We have a promise that if we believe we shall inherit salvation at the end. I Pet 1:3-5. What we do in between the beginning and the end, is living a life IN CHRIST. Obedience is the rule. We are being saved through our faith and that faith is being tested, just as much as Adam was tested in the beginning. It is about faithfulness, love and obedience. You cannot just say you are a follower but must live it.
It is not about how many years or even what one teaches, If it is not scriptural it matters little.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Yes that is true, but that reconciliation is found only in Christ. As Paul pleaded in
Corinthians for people to be reconciled to God! One must obtain that reconciliation by turning to Jesus in faith! It is not automatically given.
Those things you mentioned, you are correct, they will take place at teh end. but slavation was granted to teh elect from the foundation of the world. We simply received what God granted us long ago, in time when we exercised faith.
Now you are confusing the experiential forgiveness of sin with the judicial experience of being declared not guilty.
Teh moment we believed God declared us:
crucified in christ
seated in heavenly places
justified
glorified
perfected forever
never able to perish.
translated forever from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of the son of His love
given eternal life (not probationary eternal life)
made the children of G
od.
these are all biblical truths
If one can lose their salvation, then you are declaring that the blood of Jesus is not enough and that is simply blasphemy.
It appears you do not understand the difference between judicial forgiveness (salvation) and day to day forgiveness which hampers our fellowship with god- but does not destroy our sonship
and if you studied the original inspired languages, you would know it cannot be undone. One cannot be born again, then unborn again, then born again, again, then unborn again again, etc.
Sorry, but you are preaching a salvation by works and that God declared anathema! We are saved in this life. It is absolutely spelled out in Scripture. You need to study the Scriptures and learn the simply truth of Eph. 2:8-9
Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
but this time do a language study and realize that Paul said we saved past present and future by grace apart form works! then accept the true gospel that you may be saved!
Ron N
Those Corinthians were already reconciled to God by the non imputation of sin and by the death of Christ Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
2 Cor 5:19
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Paul preached to them what Christ has already done for them, this is the call to believe it, its a done deal. So it was given to them before they believe it.
Those Corinthians were already reconciled to God by the non imputation of sin and by the death of Christ Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
2 Cor 5:19
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Paul preached to them what Christ has already done for them, this is the call to believe it, its a done deal. So it was given to them before they believe it.
You missed the initial reconciliation in the same context. II Cor 5:18-19 is Christ reconciling the world to God. This is automatic or a free gift given to all mankind. Because of this reconciliation Paul then pleads that a person reconcile themselves to Christ which we do by and through faith.
Those who believe were predestined or chosen IN HIM, (not to be in Him) who are the elect will be adopted, Eph 1:4-5 plus other blessings. Salvation was promised to those that believe, but there is nothing in scripture that makes it finite at the time of exercising one's faith. We have assurance as a beiever, but we are also warned to that if we lose faith, become unfaithful, or if we no longer abide in Him, He will not longer abide in us.
I have no idea what this means. Where are these terms explained in scripture?
actually they are not because you have lifted them from the context and isolated them. Glorified is in the future, not present and it depends on being faithful. Just as the others all depend on one believing. Believing or believes is a verb, and has continuous action.
You put words in these phrases that are not in scripture- such as perfected FOREVER, translated forever, NEVER able to perish.
That's because you conflate what Christ did and man's response to what Christ did. Christ performed a sacrifice for sin - period. That sacrifice was needed if only one sin was ever committed. It was also sufficient for more sins than will ever be committed by man in this world. So the fact that man decides not to be faithful and loses faith, (we do not lose salvation because we never had it finitely in this life) and does not confess his sins has nothing to do with the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice.
I have no idea what this means either. Show from scripture where these distinctions are made and defined.
The fact that you make salvation finite and a relationship/fellowship fluid is what you means by these terms. However, these are not made in scripture. One loses fellowship, one loses salvation unless one repents and returns as did the prodigal son. If he was like the unfaithful servant if Luke 12:42-46 then you have a believer being condemned with unbelievers. You create a illusion of the reality of being a believer.
Those are your words, not scripture. One is not unborn, but cuts the relationship just as Adam cut off his relationship with God in the Garden. When scripture uses the term "born again" what do you think it means? Why not just birth. It is rebirth because once man had an eternal relationship with God. That was Adam in the Garden as he was created. But he broke that relationship with God, amazing that He had a fellowship with God and had the same advantage we have of having eternal life but he lost it as it was meant to be.
When we believe, we are reborn through baptism and begin that same relationship with God. That relationship can be squandered. There is nothing in scriptrure that states it differently. I might add we are at a much greater disadvantage than Adam because we life in a sinful, fallen world and with a fallen human nature, and Satan sltill seeking to devour us and take us away from Christ.
There is a war going on between God and Satan over your soul. Man is the decident factor and you think that you, by simple, one-time mental ascent of faith have attained a finite standing. Friend, you are being tested just as much as Adam was in the beginning.
This text does not say what you want it to say. First note, that everything is of grace. We live, move and have our being by grace.
The context begins with vs 1. 1-5 is addressing the work of Christ. What did He do? He saved the world from death and sin. Paul even puts the objective salvation is parentheses to make sure you are not confused.
Then he changes the context specifically to believers and then vs 8, we are saved, how? through faith. Not by faith which only justifies us at initial belief. Through faith is an active faith, not a dead faith, or a lost faith. He never says we have salvation here. Why? Because he knows that a believer can forfeit that salvation promised as an inheritance at the end of a faithfully lived life, I Pet 1:3-5.
Vs 9 - dealing with works is referencing that Christ did the work for us, Kept the law perfectly. We cannot do what Christ did, as if we ever could.
You have a tendency to conflate what Christ did and what is expected from a believer.
That language study has been done for me with 2000 years of continuous same belief of the Church, in which the first 900 years was ONLY in Greek. I think the Greeks understand their language.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
No it is not. Reconciliation , like justification and salvation are all gifts bestowed by faith as per Eph. 2:8-9
You misread those verses i light of teh rest of Scripture.
Two verses should show the lie you have become ensnared in:
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
There is much in Scripture that proves the lie you are espousing. The fellowship can be squandered but to the relationship, for that is based on god and not the false gospel of works.
The war for my soul is over! when I exercised faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus, I was declared dead, and my life is now hidden in christ in God and when Jesus shall appear, I WILL appear with Him.
We cannot walk away from God. Why?
Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
YOu cannot maintain your slavation by faithfulness and works. It is kept in heaven where you and I cannot touch it.
It is precisely what I have been saying. The sacrifice is complete, finished, perfected, and is available for all men. However, believers are the subject here, those that are sanctified.
This verse isolated again, which you seem to do a lot, does not address that any believer can forfeit that eternal life. God is not the one that will change His mind toward you. However, man can and does. That is manifested very clearly in the whole of the NT. Nothing is final in your life until you die.
You are very confused over the issue of works. You have cited no text that overturns the scriptural understanding that a believer can forfiet his salvation. Fellowship as you stated definitely can be squandered which then forfeits that person's salvation which will not be granted at the end, unless he repents and comes back to the fold.
Have you read the parable of the sower? Jesus even explained this and you still don't understand that a believer can be overcome by the things of this world and will not inherit eternal life (salvation). I already cited Luke 12:42-48, how can you miss the obvious. The books of Timothy are loaded with examples, I Tim 1
19-20, I Tim 4:1, I Tim 6:9-10, Ii Tim 2:11-13, II Tim 2:23-26, II Tim 4:3-5, Heb 6: 4-6, Heb 10, 26-31, there are many more.Paul explicitedly states in I Tim 6:19 that eternal life/salvation is in the future. We are laying up a good foundation by doing what, vs8 tells you.
Scripture says otherwise, if one does not remain faithful. We are not given exhortations to remain faithful and think that when we become unfaithful we are still going to receive salvation, If it didn't matter, which you seem to think, why even make the statements since they would be irrelevant.
You do live in a delusion. Nothing is scripture, especially when you quote what God does for us. God is not the issue. God will never forsake you. It is the believer that can forsake God, can deny Him and if He does, God will deny him. See citation above. Other texts not cited above are also applicable, John 15:1-6, Heb 3:14-18 - 4:1, Heb 10:38, Rev 2:10-11, Rev 3:1-5, II Tim 2:10, still many more.
Just a side note, we are way off the topic of atonement here.
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Behold
Well-Known Member
This : 2 Corinthians 5:19
New International Version
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
New Living Translation
For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation.
English Standard Version
that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Berean Standard Bible
that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Berean Literal Bible
how that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning their trespasses to them, and having put into us the word of reconciliation.
King James Bible
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
New King James Version
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
New American Standard Bible
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
NASB 1995
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
NASB 1977
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Legacy Standard Bible
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their transgressions against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Amplified Bible
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting people’s sins against them [but canceling them]. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation [that is, restoration to favor with God].
That makes my point, the world here is saved, no sin on them at all, thats saved. So its limited to the saved world.
Behold
Well-Known Member
The "atonement" is the Cross of Christ. Its the literal shed blood and death of Jesus.
This is the NEW Covenant that is written in the Blood of Jesus.
CALVIN, decided that This Cross, this Blood Atonement, isn't offered to everyone.
So, this denies the Cross, rejects the Cross, and spits on the Grace of God.
Calvin rejects John 3:16-17
Calvin is one of the Devil's best theologians, as He openly attacks the Cross by reducing it, remodeling it, and "Limiting" it.
Imagine the level of DEVIL you are dealing with who would change God's Grace into "limited", and God's Cross into "some only".
The world in 2 Cor 5:19 supports limited atonement by Christ, because that world has no sin charged on it. Thats an entirely different world from the condemned world Paul wrote of earlier 1 Cor 11:32
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Your logic is missing. If Jesus promises we will never perish- we cannot forfeit that! Well as you have isolated verses, I will assume it is because I am showing the correct biblical argument and it is convicting you.
Satan cannot grab me and cause me to lose my salvation! We must wrestle with him and war with the principalities, but as Jes sus said we are already more than overcomers.
And they matter simply because it is what God wants of His children.
We work because we are saved as Eph. 2 says and not to stay saved or maintain our slavtion which is kept in heaven for us like we are there also.
Behold
Well-Known Member
You must have a commentary you are using....., as the NT, any of them, deny you.
Look....
This that i will show you, is what defines Calvin as a heretical demonic Cross hating devil.
He said...>"The Cross" = "The Grace of God"...... Is for SOME<. Just some.
SOME
SOME.
See that?
But the very verse you quoted denies and convicts this hellish liar.
""" God was IN Christ = reconciling the WORLD unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses (sin) unto them""
Do you see "WORLD'?
That means "WORLD"... That means John 3:16........."For God so loved the WORLD"....that He GAVE JESUS""
To whom ?
World.
World
World.
And this is confirmed by many verses
Here is another.
Jesus said..>"If I be lifted up. (on the Cross) I will draw ALL"
See that "all"?
That means "ALL"
"world"
"all"
"world'.
Calvin said...>"um no Jesus, let me show you what I teach"..., and He then denied the Universal = "ALL" "world" = Application of the Grace of God, by LIMITING it, and that denies the CROSS. 100%.
I know you are convinced that you are correct. The view you espouse has never been a teaching of the Church for 2000 years. The theory you are espousing is the I an P of Calvinism which is obviously a modern new view and not scriptural.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Jesus is both Salvation and Eternal life.
When a person is born again, they now exit Spiritually in union with Jesus, who is Salvation and Eternal life. "in Christ".
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