I just believe what it says. The world in 2 Cor 5:19 is sin free, God doesnt charge it with sin. So it cant be everyone without exception, duh !
LIMITED ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)
- Thread starter atpollard
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Behold
Well-Known Member
God doensn't charge sin to the world Like this....>"In Christ".
Sin isnt charged to the believer "in Christ'.....like this...
2 Corinthians 5:19
and John 3:7
and John 11:25
and Romans 4:5
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
can someone please explain what on earth this limited atonment means .
I mean the only one limited to atonement is the one who believes not , has not faith in CHRIST .
That is my defintion of limited atonement .
NO FAITH IN CHRIST NO ATONMENT .
The world of 2 Cor 5:19 is saved from sin, God doesnt charge them with sin. So common sense tells you thats not everyone without exception, its the elect
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
A dear old lady lie dying in her bed
with many friends , much family surrounding her
the news as well .
The anchor told her , Ye have done well in this life . You gave much to the poor
ye loved much and told all that every path was fine
The untold millions you gave , billions you gave over your life to the poor
will be remembered .
TO which the lady said , Yes i did . I had hopsitals and orphanges opened
I gave much to the less fortunate . And though i was a christain
i always loved and told others YE dont have to believe , just do good , lets be all inclusive for the LOVE of
GOD is very broad and the way to him is through this inclusive love .
Another lady lay dying , surrounded by only a few .
And when compared to the other rich lady she could not compete with her works . For she was poor in this life .
YET her faith IN JESUS was strong .
Both died . The well loved rich lady was in torments of hells fire
Yet the poor lady whose faith was in CHRIST alone was now comforted and in the midst of all lambs and OF GOD .
The rich lady said , ALAS i gave far more than that wretched fundamental thing did .
TO which she was told , YEAH , BUT THAT fundamental JESUS CHRIST ONLY lady , DID WHAT WAS REQUIRED
to enter into everlasting life , WHEREAS YOU taught others they didnt need to do such a thing
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
There was a dear old man who lay dying on his bed . He was surrounded by many .
There was another dear old man who lay dying on his bed and he too was surrounded by many .
To the first old man his dear wife , family and friends told him alas
a great a wonderful eternity awaits you . For you have done many great works
you gave to the poor , you built hospitals for the sick , you spent your time upon this earth
doing good . To which the first old man said , Alas yes i did , i was not like
those wicked things , i did much good .
The second old man too was surrounded by friends and by family .
And they told him you did so much good , you gave to the poor ,
a great eternity awaits you .
To which the old man said , OH LORD GOD simply remember THE MERCY you gave me In CHRIST
for the only goodness i had came from you .
I TELL US ALL this second man went HOME to the KING.
It is a split event for the unbeliever.
Every human being will receive life at the end of time. All will be raised because Christ defeated death for the world actually.
Respective of the sacrifice for sin, if one never believes or falls away from his faith, he has forfeited the sacrifice and will be condemned. It is/was available for every human being. Christ atonement was universal, there is no limitation. Respective of His Incarnation, it is an impossibility.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
It is scriptural and was the accepted view for the majority until the time of Augustine and his popularizing covenant theology and allegorical interpretation.
It is the popular religious view you hold, which is unbiblical, that would be the Armenian view.
If you wish I can list for you the dozens of passages that prove teh Perseverance of the saints and for Irresistible grace there is only one needed.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Now this requires a modicum of thought here.
1. No man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them. The word draw is the same word used of Peter and Andrew in bringing th enet full of fish after Jesus told them to cast. It means to drag with energy or compel inwardly with power.
2. Everyone that comes to Jesus- He will not cast out!
3. You cannot come to Jesus unless you are compelled by the Father.
4. If you come to Jesus , you were given to jesus by the Father.
5. He will not cast you out.
The world of Jn 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
This world speaks to limited atonement just like the world of 2 Cor 5:19 simply because Jesus Christ the Lamb has taken away the sin of this particular world, and God doesnt see any sin on it that hasnt been taken away, and He will not chare any sin on it 2 Cor 5:19, this is limited atonement because many have sin not taken away, and shall die in their sins.
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
This world speaks to limited atonement just like the world of 2 Cor 5:19 simply because Jesus Christ the Lamb has taken away the sin of this particular world, and God doesnt see any sin on it that hasnt been taken away, and He will not chare any sin on it 2 Cor 5:19, this is limited atonement because many have sin not taken away, and shall die in their sins.
We know the world of 2 Cor 5:19 is the elect because the non imputation of their sins corresponds with that non imputation of sin to the charge of Gods elect Rom 8:33
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifiet
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifiet
It would be really remarkable that the early Church actually held to the view of irresistible grace and perseverance of the saints and then later condemn it has heresy. Calvinism as a whole was condenmed by the Synod of Jerusalem in 1672.
Good luck, the ones you picked below do not suffice.
First. Christ will draw all men to Himself. John 12:32, Then even more Christological Col 1:20 it clearly says all things were given to Christ. John 6: 39 is the answer to Col 1:20. It is actually Incarnational. Even vs 40 condemns your view, those that see and believe, not some elect persons.
And why would He cast any out, when He is calling all men to repentance. II Pet 3:9. All men will give an answer to that call. Unfortunately, none address the pertinent point, man can and does fall from faith and many do not come back and will be lost, lose salvation. One needs to blantantly disregard scripture or create run-arounds to make it seemingly true. like creating a difference between fellowship and salvation.
All men were taught by the Father. John 6: 45, again Incarnational, not soteriological. Vs 47 is soteriological but it also does not align with your view respective of election, another one of Calvin's tenants.
None of these teach the tenets of I and P of Calvinism, as well as election.
All men inherently, even in fallen state have been given a knowledge of God. Rom 1:18-24, All men will give an answer to God for their own choices regarding what they did with that knowledge.
Paul writes Christ is the propitiation through faith in His blood.
Romans 3:25 (KJV) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
How can we reconcile Christ being the propitiation through faith in His blood with what John writes in 1Jo 2:2?
1 John 2:2 (KJV) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
After saying Christ is the propitiation for the whole world, why does John write that we should not love the world, neither the things in the world. And if a man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. That surely makes a distinction between those of faith in Christ, and being of the world, which is lust of the flesh, eyes and the pride of life that is not of the Father, but of the world. After saying Christ is the propitiation for the whole world, John writes "the world passes away".
1 John 2:15-17 (KJV) Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Since the world shall pass away, how is Christ the propitiation for our sins, but also for the whole world? Though world can sometimes be defined as all of creation, including every human being, it cannot mean every human in this passage. If it did we have contradiction between the writing of Paul and that of John. We reconcile the two when we understand Christ as the propitiation for whosoever is of faith in His blood, and Christ is also the propitiation of the whole of creation (world) through His sacrificial blood shed on the cross. By His sacrifice and resurrection the whole world will be redeemed from the consequence that is death for everything living. Because all of creation, every living creature was subjected to death through man's sin. But since Christ is the propitiation (atonement; expiator) for ALL sin, so not only will all who are of faith in His blood be saved through Him, but creation also shall be saved (redeemed; made new again) through His atoning blood.
Romans 8:19-22 (KJV) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Revelation 21:1-5 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
It is in this manner that Christ is the propitiation not only for our sins, but for the whole world!
Christ is the propitiation (atonement) for ALL sin! He is the Saviour of ALL who believe in Him. His atoning blood will have no effect upon ALL WHO remain in unbelief!
This is true! And whosoever believes in Him already possesses everlasting life through Him. Those who remain in darkness and unbelief, according to the Scriptures are condemned already because they did not believe! Therefore Scripture further says "Ye shall die in your sins".
John 8:24 (KJV) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
rightglory
Thats the saved Sheep. Once God draws a person, thats His saving intervention. So that cant apply to the lost condemned people.
Thats the saved Sheep. Once God draws a person, thats His saving intervention. So that cant apply to the lost condemned people.
Only the saved, all who Christ is the propitiation for are saved. Now are you an universalist ? If you are, thats error too.
The message about Christ; the Gospel is freely OFFERED to all people without exception. And whosoever believes the Gospel according to grace through faith is saved through Him. This is from the Holy Scriptures, and does not originate with John Calvin, though he believed the Scriptures teaching this!
Preaching is proclaiming the Gospel, which is a message about Christ. It is NOT the message about Christ that saves man, it is by grace through faith that saves the man/woman that believes the message about Christ, i.e. the Gospel offered to mankind through preaching. Christ made Himself an offering for our sin, that is the Gospel message we are to proclaim and whosoever believes has everlasting life in Him.
Hebrews 10:12-14 (KJV) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Similar threads
