LIMITED ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)

[Rightglory]

The reason why some people are saved from the power of sin, is because Christ saved them from the penalty of sin. One cant be saved from the power of sin and yet not saved from the penalty of sin. The penalty of sin is death, death is a power. Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

You clearly do not understand the theology of scripture relative to atonement. Lets leave Christ out of the picture for a moment. Adam sinned and His condemnation was death, physical death, dust to dust. Also, it estranged him from God relative to his relationship. Man was created to be eternal and in union with God. All of this was destroyed by that one sin. Sin separates man from God in this life.
God promised Adam that He would send someone who would correct the fall. Because God knew what His solution would be, He still maintained a relationship with man in the OT who had faith in Him. You can start with Able, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc, etc.
In the OT we learn that God established the animal sacrifice for the purpose to forgive sin, a substitute for Christ, to overcome the penalty of sin, which we characterize as spiritual death/separation from God vis-a-vie a relationship.
When Christ comes in time, He comes Incarnate, His death overcomes physical death by His Resurrection for the world. His sacrifice, now a one-time blood sacrifice permanently removes the permanence of the power of sin caused by one man's sin/Adam. The penalty is still present, present for every man that ever lived. But man now has a choice, to be in union with Christ or not to be and suffer eternal damnation.

 

[brightfame52]

"for God so loved the world, that He gave".......What?

The Cross = to the World, not to "calvin's nonsense, pre-destined".

Also, the born again exist "in Christ".... Romans 8:1. """"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus".

God can't "condemn" those who are "in Christ" as they have already "passed FROM DEATH, to Life"..... 1 John 3:14

That is the "born again". 'new Creation". "in Christ'.

You jumping all over. You have a saved world 2 Cor 5:19 and a condemned world 1 Cor 11:32. Christ died for the saved world but not the condemned world. Remember Jesus said I pray not for the world Jn 17:9 well thats the condemned world that He didntLove, and didnt die for.

 

[brightfame52]

You clearly do not understand the theology of scripture relative to atonement. Lets leave Christ out of the picture for a moment. Adam sinned and His condemnation was death, physical death, dust to dust. Also, it estranged him from God relative to his relationship. Man was created to be eternal and in union with God. All of this was destroyed by that one sin. Sin separates man from God in this life.
God promised Adam that He would send someone who would correct the fall. Because God knew what His solution would be, He still maintained a relationship with man in the OT who had faith in Him. You can start with Able, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc, etc.
In the OT we learn that God established the animal sacrifice for the purpose to forgive sin, a substitute for Christ, to overcome the penalty of sin, which we characterize as spiritual death/separation from God vis-a-vie a relationship.
When Christ comes in time, He comes Incarnate, His death overcomes physical death by His Resurrection for the world. His sacrifice, now a one-time blood sacrifice permanently removes the permanence of the power of sin caused by one man's sin/Adam. The penalty is still present, present for every man that ever lived. But man now has a choice, to be in union with Christ or not to be and suffer eternal damnation.

What it boils down to, you like all other religionists, condition Salvation on man, what the man does, which makes you in unbelief.

 

[Rightglory]

You jumping all over. You have a saved world 2 Cor 5:19 and a condemned world 1 Cor 11:32. Christ died for the saved world but not the condemned world. Remember Jesus said I pray not for the world Jn 17:9 well thats the condemned world that He didntLove, and didnt die for.

This is why you have such a horrific understanding of scripture. You take bits and pieces of scripture to create a narrative that becomes external to scripture, meaningless and irrelevant.
John 17 is Christ pastoral prayer. Vs 1-5 He is praying for Himself. vs 6-19 He is praying for His disciples, vs 20-23 He is praying for His Church, and finally, vs 24-26 He is praying for all others, meaning the world.
Your statement also denies John 3:16 where it states that He so loved this world. He loves all mankind and desisres that all come to Him.

 

[Rightglory]

What it boils down to, you like all other religionists, condition Salvation on man, what the man does, which makes you in unbelief.

What it actually means Is I believe what scripture says and what it has meant for 2000 years. What I don't believe is the theory of Calvin which has no root, theologically in scripture. That is what I do not believe.

 

[brightfame52]

This is why you have such a horrific understanding of scripture. You take bits and pieces of scripture to create a narrative that becomes external to scripture, meaningless and irrelevant.
John 17 is Christ pastoral prayer. Vs 1-5 He is praying for Himself. vs 6-19 He is praying for His disciples, vs 20-23 He is praying for His Church, and finally, vs 24-26 He is praying for all others, meaning the world.
Your statement also denies John 3:16 where it states that He so loved this world. He loves all mankind and desisres that all come to Him.

The world of In 3:16 is the elect , a world loved and chosen in Christ. It's not the world Jesus did not pray for Jn 17:9

 

[brightfame52]

What it actually means Is I believe what scripture says and what it has meant for 2000 years. What I don't believe is the theory of Calvin which has no root, theologically in scripture. That is what I do not believe.

What it is still is you are in unbelief and exalt man in salvation and you can't help it.

 

[brightfame52]

rightglory

The very verse you cite tells you He did not save anyone from the penalty of sin

Its with statements like this, its very obvious you are a stranger to the redemptive death of the lord Jesus Christ for His People, and you dont believe in Him, for its written Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


This He accomplished for them He died for, Gods elect, eternal redemption. The word redemption is the greek word lytrōsis and means:

1. a ransoming, redemption
2. deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin

His death redeemed, saved, delivered them He died for from the penalty of sin,

which you deny, hence you show yourself in unbelief in the accomplishment of the Death of Christ. Now those who wind up in hell for their sins, He could not have died for, hell is the penalty for sin !

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Propitiation means a covering of sin. Atonement is what Christ did on the Cross with that sacrifice which was to reconcile the world back to God. Col 1:20. II Cor 5:19, I John 2:2. There was no removal of sin on/from the Cross or even by His resurrection. The sacrifice was necessary for Christ as our High Priest to forgive sins when individuals repent/believe/confess their sins.
It would be illogical as well as unscriptural to say Christ died for the sins of the world, meaning He took/removed all the sins of the world. What would that even mean.

NO NO NO.

Propitiation is a sacrifice for sin.

Atonement in the OT was a COVERING FOR SIN and in the NT the removal of sin.

I agree it would be unscriptural to say Jesus removed all the sins of the world, that is why the Holy Spirit inspired the word propititiation- which means Jesus is the acceptable sacrifice for the sins of the world

Scripture disagrees with you, You agree with the following, but somehow you think what Christ did is somehow divided between two different classes of people when it pertains to the sacrifice.
The primary work of atonement for Christ was overcoming the curse of death to the world. He did that by being Incarnated, taking on our human nature, and raised that human nature to life. All men will be raised immortal and incorruptible in the last day, I Cor 15:53.

Now you are falsely equating the varied things Jesus accomplished at Calvary.

Never stated they would. However, they are not the result of we being saved. A person who believes is not saved in this life. He has assurance that he will be saved IF one remains faithful. We are on a journey in a relationship with Christ. He requires a lot for that commitment. They are called works of faith. Our journey is a mutual relationship between God and man. God is not the one who can become unfaithful in His promises, but man can and does. Scripture has many examples of believers losing faith and forfeit their eternal inheritance being reserved for them. I Pet 1:3-5.

So you believe one can lose their salvation- that is very unbiblical.

Secondly, the sacrifice was for all sin, period. There is no division, or separation. That sacrifice was universal, It was completed, finished.
It is available for all men. There is no potential here, all men have been freed from the power of sin. What is the power of sin? Separation from God, in this life and for eternity if one does not believe, repent, confess one's sin. Forgiving sin is what Christ does and can do as our High Priest because He was the perfect, one-time sacrifice for that sin. He did not remove sin from the Cross.

Correct. but in order to obtain that payment, one must appropriate it by trusting in the death and resurrection of Jesus as that unique payment. If they don't- they are lost forever.

 

[brightfame52]

Ronald N

Correct. but in order to obtain that payment, one must appropriate it by trusting in the death and resurrection of Jesus as that unique payment. If they don't- they are lost forever.

So mans salvation depends on him, thats works. See Christ in actuality conveys His Salvation to them He died for, meaning He applies it to them ! You have people Christ died for being still lost forever, thats so dishonoring to Christ the Saviour, may He give you repentance !

 

[Rightglory]

rightglory



Its with statements like this, its very obvious you are a stranger to the redemptive death of the lord Jesus Christ for His People, and you dont believe in Him, for its written Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


This He accomplished for them He died for, Gods elect, eternal redemption. The word redemption is the greek word lytrōsis and means:

1. a ransoming, redemption
2. deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin

His death redeemed, saved, delivered them He died for from the penalty of sin,

which you deny, hence you show yourself in unbelief in the accomplishment of the Death of Christ. Now those who wind up in hell for their sins, He could not have died for, hell is the penalty for sin !

What is so sad is that your theology does not even provide for a hell.

 

[brightfame52]

What is so sad is that your theology does not even provide for a hell.

You deny that Christs death saves from the penalty of sin, you seem very unknowledgeable in the things of God in Christ, thats unbelief friend.

 

[Rightglory]

NO NO NO.

Propitiation is a sacrifice for sin.

Atonement in the OT was a COVERING FOR SIN and in the NT the removal of sin.

You will be hard pressed to show any scripture that states Christ removed sin from the Cross. He performed a sacrifice for sin. Sin is forgiven/removed on a singular basis. When one confesses their sins they are removed/forgotten because Christ as our High Priest can and will forgive them because He is the sacrifice for those sins.
By the way, the atonement in the OT is the same as in the NT. The only difference is the many sacrifices of animals vs the one-time sacrifice of Christ.

I agree it would be unscriptural to say Jesus removed all the sins of the world, that is why the Holy Spirit inspired the word propititiation- which means Jesus is the acceptable sacrifice for the sins of the world

Now you are falsely equating the varied things Jesus accomplished at Calvary.

and what would they be?

So you believe one can lose their salvation- that is very unbiblical.

Depending on which salvation you are referencing. If what Christ accomplished then no. It is a universal gift to all men/world, and was completed 2000 years ago. Though the overcoming of death awaits the Second Coming of Christ when all men will be raised and a New Heaven and New Earth will be established.
Now, it you are speaking of an individuals salvation through faith, Yes. There is no scripture that one is saved (past tense) at the time of belief. You are given a promise that if one is faithful to that commitment to be in union with Christ, then they will inherit eternal life at the end of their life. I Pet 1:3-5. It seems most of the NT speaks directly at this point. It also give many examples of believers who failed to remain faithful and lost their inheritance.

Correct. but in order to obtain that payment, one must appropriate it by trusting in the death and resurrection of Jesus as that unique payment. If they don't- they are lost forever.

Not just trusting but living the life of being IN Christ. We sin a lot as believers, and are in constant need of forgiveness of those sins, thus confession is a necessary part of every believers life.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You will be hard pressed to show any scripture that states Christ removed sin from the Cross. He performed a sacrifice for sin. Sin is forgiven/removed on a singular basis. When one confesses their sins they are removed/forgotten because Christ as our High Priest can and will forgive them because He is the sacrifice for those sins.
By the way, the atonement in the OT is the same as in the NT. The only difference is the many sacrifices of animals vs the one-time sacrifice of Christ.

No the cross was the propitiation for our sin. when we accept that by faith it becomes our atonement or removal of sin.

Now, it you are speaking of an individuals salvation through faith, Yes. There is no scripture that one is saved (past tense) at the time of belief. You are given a promise that if one is faithful to that commitment to be in union with Christ, then they will inherit eternal life at the end of their life. I Pet 1:3-5. It seems most of the NT speaks directly at this point. It also give many examples of believers who failed to remain faithful and lost their inheritance.

Sorry but you are belieiving a works based gospel and that is a lie from hell.

 

[Enoch111]

By the way, the atonement in the OT is the same as in the NT. The only difference is the many sacrifices of animals vs the one-time sacrifice of Christ.

That is incorrect. In the OT sin was only covered by animal sacrifices. In the NT Christ TOOK AWAY (PURGED) the sins of the whole world.

 

[Rightglory]

No the cross was the propitiation for our sin. when we accept that by faith it becomes our atonement or removal of sin

You are correct the cross was the propitiation for the sin of the world. That is one part of Christ' work by His death and resurrection. The whole is the atonement Christ made to God. Christ put man and the world right with God. Other words that say the same thing is reconciliation of the world to God. Col 1:20, II Cor 5:19, and many others.
When a person comes to God and believes, repents, is baptised that is called justification by faith. That puts his relationship with God right, or he is reconciled to God. You can use the word atonement, but scripture does not use it to describe a believers position in relation to
God. Our initial faith with confession of sin is ONLY for past sins. Any future sins will need to be forgiven as well. Sin separates one from God even as a believer thus confession is a ever present part of our journey to salvation.

Sorry but you are belieiving a works based gospel and that is a lie from hell.

You apparently do not understand the NT and what it means to be IN Christ and remain. Paul explains they are the Law of faith. James is quite explicit that we must be doers of the word, James 1:23-26 as well as James 2:20-26. Those are the summations of the Law of faith, but the NT is filled with exhortations to maintain our walk with God.
That walk if faithful to the end will grant one eternal life I Pet 1:3-5.
To give you one example of a believer losing his inheritance, Luke 12:42-46

 

[Enoch111]

Did He save every individual from the penalty of sin ? Did He save every individual from the second death spoken of here Rev 21:8

brightflame52 is not very bright when it comes to understanding the finished work of Christ. And that is pretty sad.

Every Christian should have a clear grasp of what Christ accomplished on the cross. Did He pay the FULL PENALTY for the sins of the whole world? Absolutely. All one has to do is read, study, and meditate upon Isaiah 53 (to begin with). Then there are dozens of Scripture to confirm this.

So why do people face the Second Death? The reason is given in Rev 21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

These people have never repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ! And what did Christ say about them? He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (John 3:18-20)

Calvinists have such a WARPED THEOLOGY that they cannot even understand plain English! But will they repent and turn to the truth? Absolutely not. They love their false gospel so much that they would rather die on that hill.

 

[Rightglory]

That is incorrect. In the OT sin was only covered by animal sacrifices. In the NT Christ TOOK AWAY (PURGED) the sins of the whole world.

You are incorrect in both cases. OT the sins of the people were placed upon the sacrifice, thus forgiveness. Christ covered, propitiated the sins of the world, He did not purge or take away any sins. That would be a carte blanche forgiveness of every single sin of every single human being from beginning to end of the age. That is NOT what scripture teaches. Sins are forgiven ONLY if one confesses those sins. Christ is acting as our High Priest through His one-time sacrifice for sin. In other words, our sin is placed upon His sacrifice.
However, you could say that Christ sanctified, made valid the OT sacrifices and sins forgiven.

 

[Rightglory]

brightflame52 is not very bright when it comes to understanding the finished work of Christ. And that is pretty sad.

Every Christian should have a clear grasp of what Christ accomplished on the cross. Did He pay the FULL PENALTY for the sins of the whole world? Absolutely. All one has to do is read, study, and meditate upon Isaiah 53 (to begin with). Then there are dozens of Scripture to confirm this.

So why do people face the Second Death? The reason is given in Rev 21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

These people have never repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ! And what did Christ say about them? He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (John 3:18-20)

Calvinists have such a WARPED THEOLOGY that they cannot even understand plain English! But will they repent and turn to the truth? Absolutely not. They love their false gospel so much that they would rather die on that hill.

I disagree with one phrase. Your question, did He pay the full penalty for the sins of the whole world? your answer, absolutely.
That would not make sense if you later say that unbelievers would be condemned. You just stated that the penalty was paid for the world, which includes these unbelievers. So why are they being penalized again?

 

[Behold]

I disagree with one phrase. Your question, did He pay the full penalty for the sins of the whole world? your answer, absolutely.
That would not make sense if you later say that unbelievers would be condemned.

If a bank account has a billion dollars in it that keeps regenerating so that is stays at A Billion...., and everyone in the world is told...>"go and receive it"".......and some dont.

Did you just prove the Billion is not for everyone?

The Liar John Calvin tried to prove exactly that with "Limited"..... bank account, because He was a deceived deceiver, who died one.
Was this Cross Denying Heretic even born again?
Doubtful.
Why? Because when you try to deny the Cross, this proves you have no respect for it, and absolutely didn't kneel before it, or understand it.
People who have been touched by Christ on the Cross, LIFT IT UP, GIVE IT PRAISE.....and Calvin spit on it,= "LIMITED IT".
That's what Calvinism does.

Listen,
The CROSS of Chist is that eternal Bank account, and if a person wont BELIEVE IT, and dies without the Payment for all their sin, that is not proving the Cross was not for everyone.
That only proves that some didnt go to the Cross.

Welcome to : FREE WILL

Some use theirs to go to Hell.