Limited atonement is a false gospel

[Rockerduck]

I would ask you, what is Spirit saying to you in this relationship?

The great truth is that the Spirit doesn't have to inform you of what He is going to do in this situation. He will just go about God's business and get it done. This we can be sure of.

I will answer for me, the Holy Spirit is with me all the time, if you hit my Jesus button (figuratively), watch out, I will start Praising the name of Jesus. When I start preaching, I'm in the Spirit, and the Holy Spirit puts words in my mouth, and scripture is recalled as I preach. Some preachers write sermons, not me. A lot of people are attracted to my energy and excitement.

 

[Ritajanice]

I've known churches full of people like that. They can read the bible and apply it, but talk about the Living Word of God, walk by faith, walking in the Spirit, I get questions, and I show them in the bible, but they still don't understand. As you have found out, it hard to describe the Power of the Holy Spirit that lives in you and makes you alive. I got out of my car once in a parking lot, and I saw a fish on a car that just pulled up. She got out and I said I saw the fish on the back. I started praising Jesus. She just looked at me.

We’re on fire for God and I too can’t understand those who aren’t...I’ve met many like that also in churches...

I hope she was thinking, I wish I was that excited.

To be honest...I think she is still in the natural man, that’s why she didn’t understand....I pray that she comes to know God in her heart...

 

[Ritajanice]

I will answer for me, the Holy Spirit is with me all the time, if you hit my Jesus button (figuratively), watch out, I will start Praising the name of Jesus. When I start preaching, I'm in the Spirit, and the Holy Spirit puts words in my mouth, and scripture is recalled as I preach. Some preachers write sermons, not me. A lot of people are attracted to my energy and excitement.

I’ve been praising God/ Jesus today at the hairdressers.......I couldn’t help it, I saw my opportunity and seized it...LOL......planting that seed...praying that it takes root and grows.......we had a good talk about JWS as well, my hairdresser used to work with one...

 

[Lizbeth]

I've never used those 2 words together that's all. And I'm guessing you are using it as a metaphor. But for what?

Yes, it's a metaphor. Childhood is typically a time of "ignorant bliss" and I sometimes do miss it, and wish I could visit it again. As we grow and mature we start to realize and also shoulder the harder truths and responsibilities of life. Which brings more "sorrow" because of seeing things more as they really are, as we discard the pleasant illusions and rosier coloured glasses of childhood.

Heb 5:11-14

Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

So how do you see this scripture? I see the milk as being all the positive things and wonderful promises of scripture....they are so easy to take, all sunshine and roses so to speak. But the meat of the word are the things in the word that are harder to take and digest, but they are necessary if we are to grow stronger and mature. In places the milk and the meat may seem contradictory but that is only if we aren't rightly dividing the word of truth.

Little babies and toddlers know nothing of the dangers and vulnerabilities of life, and they typically see their Dad as a jovial funny guy who is a lot of fun to be with. They know nothing yet of the dangers, toils and snares that lurk outside the playpen...and they have not yet experienced their Father's discipline, nor do they know that Dad runs a big business and has the power/authority to both hire as well as fire who He wishes. More than that of course, He is a Great King who has power of life and death.

The bible says to whom does He teach wisdom and understanding....to them who are weaned from the milk.....and Solomon wrote that with more wisdom comes more sorrow. Anyone who is an adult knows that adults are not as carefree and happy-go-lucky as we typically were when we were children. No, we are more serious and care-ful, and wiser to the under-belly of life in this world.

 

[Lizbeth]

Satan masquerades as an angel of light to those who are not saved and don't know better. The Born again from above know Jesus and knows His voice and cannot be fooled, by a fake. By the way, the devil has spoken to me. I know his voice too. I can't be fooled.

Oh dear. Doesn't the bible say to take heed who thinks he stands, lest he fall....? He is talking to the church, not to the unsaved.

We need to grow and learn and see and experience life in order to learn to discern and spot counterfeits.......each one has their own measure of grace and faith in the beginning but discernment typically doesn't come automatically. Those who are not matured in the faith are most vulnerable....they are most easily blown around by every wind of doctrine. It is a time of instability:

Eph 4:14

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

 

[TLHKAJ]

I’ve been praising God/ Jesus today at the hairdressers.......I couldn’t help it, I saw my opportunity and seized it...LOL......planting that seed...praying that it takes root and grows.......we had a good talk about JWS as well, my hairdresser used to work with one...

Can you share what you mean by planting seed?

 

[Ritajanice]

Can you share what you mean by planting seed?

I meant sowing....I was talking to my hairdresser all about my Living faith in the Living God..he was all ears..they pricked up I noticed, when I started talking....so as I was talking I was sowing that Almighty God is Alive ,powerful and a Living Spirit..".it got him thinking...God could well be drawing him to Jesus...
..
It started off with me bringing up Joe who used to colour my hair , she is a JW, my hairdresser Ian used to work with Joe and was telling me some stories of what she believed etc,etc....that’s when I seized my chance...to spread the word that Jesus is Alive...who knows what he will get from that....he’s very open minded...he’s a searcher of self..if you know what that means...I too used to do a lot of searching within myself, before I became Born Again...

I have tried to talk to Ian before about God, he wasn’t interested, so I didn’t force..this time he was open to it..,I’ve noticed him opening up more and more over the years...he’s been doing my hair for years..

 

[Rockerduck]

Can you share what you mean by planting seed?

I can share what it means. Anytime you say the name Jesus in a public place, it makes unsaved people think. They think kook, Jesus freak, or my mom was a Christian and talked like that, or just maybe, why did that bother me. That is planting a seed. Someone else waters, like reading an article about Jesus in a magazine, or preacher on TV. Then it is God that does the Harvesting, by drawing that person who received the seed, to Himself.

 

[TLHKAJ]

I meant sowing....I was talking to my hairdresser all about my Living faith in the Living God..he was all ears..they pricked up I noticed, when I started talking....so as I was talking I was sowing that Almighty God is Alive ,powerful and a Living Spirit..".it got him thinking...God could well be drawing him to Jesus...
..
It started off with me bringing up Joe who used to colour my hair , she is a JW, my hairdresser Ian used to work with Joe and was telling me some stories of what she believed etc,etc....that’s when I seized my chance...to spread the word that Jesus is Alive...who knows what he will get from that....he’s very open minded...he’s a searcher of self..if you know what that means...I too used to do a lot of searching within myself, before I became Born Again...

I have tried to talk to Ian before about God, he wasn’t interested, so I didn’t force..this time he was open to it..,I’ve noticed him opening up more and more over the years...he’s been doing my hair for years..

I see. Why do you plant seeds? What if they were predestined for hell? Wouldn't you just be wasting your time ...casting your pearls before swine?

 

[Ritajanice]

I see. Why do you plant seeds? What if they were predestined for hell? Wouldn't you just be wasting your time ...casting your pearls before swine?

Ah I see, there was a hidden agenda behind that question that you asked of me...you were waiting to pounce...I'm going to ignore your question.....I’ll let you think on that one....

We are chosen and predestined to become Born Again , spirit children of the most high...Praise His Holy Name....only God knows who are his chosen and predestined one’s...” we don’t”....may you know the Love Of God deep within your heart.....so that it shows...spread the Love.....in Jesus Name...Amen!

 

[TLHKAJ]

I can share what it means. Anytime you say the name Jesus in a public place, it makes unsaved people think. They think kook, Jesus freak, or my mom was a Christian and talked like that, or just maybe, why did that bother me. That is planting a seed. Someone else waters, like reading an article about Jesus in a magazine, or preacher on TV. Then it is God that does the Harvesting, by drawing that person who received the seed, to Himself.

Honestly, I know very well what it means to plant seeds. Jesus said that the Word of God is the seed. Someone shared one Scripture with me as a 5 year old. Actually, someone in the community took me, my older sister, younger brother, and our mother to church for maybe a few months. My sister had a memory verse. As she was memorizing it, I did too.

Revelation 3:20 KJV — Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

God's Word is a seed. He sent His Word to me ....literally. We moved away and from the time I was age 10, I heard the voice of the Living Word, the Lord Jesus Christ calling me, speaking to me like a friend and teaching my heart about who He is. He told me that He loved me and wanted me to serve Him. I pushed Him away for 3 years till I was 13. I'm so grateful He kept after me and was patient. But He knew I would finally say yes. He knows who will turn to Him and who will not heed His calling.

Yes, I understand about planting seeds. :) That's why it's so important to know the Living Word.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Ah I see, there was a hidden agenda behind that question that you asked of me...you were waiting to pounce...I'm going to ignore your question.....I’ll let you think on that one....

We are chosen and predestined to become Born Again , spirit children of the most high...Praise His Holy Name....only God knows who are his chosen and predestined one’s...” we don’t”....may you know the Love Of God deep within your heart.....so that it shows...spread the Love.....in Jesus Name...Amen!

Actually, it's an honest question. Jesus told us to go out into the highways and hedges and compel people to come in. We weren't given any instruction that only some were to hear and be compelled to come in.

God draws all men unto Himself. That's what happened when His Son was lifted up on the cross.

John 12:32-33
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

God foreknew who would choose Him. And those who He foreknew, He also predestined (set out a plan or will or blueprint) for them to be conformed to the image of His Son, Jesus Christ.

John 3:14-17
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. Don't forget that God didn't send Jesus to condemn the world ....but that the WORLD through Him MIGHT be saved .....this is Scripture! We all have to CHOOSE.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

He calls everyone ...but everyone has a choice of how they respond. Yes, or no. You can choose Him. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Get a KJV Bible ...read it and ask God to teach you. Find you a good small Bible teaching church. Small churches aren't usually full of programs and greed ... you'll be more likely to find personal discipleship there.

 

[Ritajanice]

Actually, it's an honest question. Jesus told us to go out into the highways and hedges and compel people to come in. We weren't given any instruction that only some were to hear and be compelled to come in.

God draws all men unto Himself. That's what happened when His Son was lifted up on the cross.

John 12:32-33
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

God foreknew who would choose Him. And those who He foreknew, He also predestined (set out a plan or will or blueprint) for them to be conformed to the image of His Son, Jesus Christ.

God did not say those who would choose him..as we can see in scripture.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

John 3:14-17
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. Don't forget that God didn't send Jesus to condemn the world ....but that the WORLD through Him MIGHT be saved .....this is Scripture! We all have to CHOOSE.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

He calls everyone ...but everyone has a choice of how they respond. Yes, or no. You can choose Him. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Get a KJV Bible ...read it and ask God to teach you. Find you a good small Bible teaching church. Small churches aren't usually full of programs and greed ... you'll be more likely to find personal discipleship there.

Also being Born Of The Spirit is not a metaphor...it’s a divine spirit Living birth.

Just as Jesus explains to Nicodemas, that’s exactly how I was Born Of The Spirit....so no..I never lifted any serpent up....as I had no Bible in sight....when my spirit was birthed by the Living Spirit Of Christ...


The Living Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children....

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◄ John 3 ►

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Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ Jesus and Nicodemus (Genesis 22:1–10; Romans 5:6–11) 1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews.2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.” 3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.a” 4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘Youb must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

John 10​

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King James Version​

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10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42 And many believed on him there.

 

[TLHKAJ]

@Ritajanice I cannot quote your entire post. You have to take ALL Scripture as a whole. Otherwise, you'll create unbiblical theologies. If you believe people have no choice, then you have to do away with the many Scriptures that encourage for us to choose whom we will serve... or the Scriptures where Jesus Himself said He would draw ALL men unto Himself. You're on dangerous ground ignoring most of the Bible to fit some Scripture around your own ideologies.

 

[Ritajanice]

@Ritajanice I cannot quote your entire post. You have to take ALL Scripture as a whole. Otherwise, you'll create unbiblical theologies. If you believe people have no choice, then you have to do away with the many Scriptures that encourage for us to choose whom we will serve... or the Scriptures where Jesus Himself said He would draw ALL men unto Himself. You're on dangerous ground ignoring most of the Bible to fit some Scripture around your own ideologies.

No I don’t take all scripture as a whole...scripture did not testify to my spirit that it’s Born Again.

I never said people don’t choose..so please stop trying to continually twist my words.

You also need to accept that some were given to Jesus by God...for it is written..you can’t keep bypassing Gods truth as you seem to be doing..you can’t fight the Living testimony of God...

I said..I did NOT choose to be Born Again..my testimony is biblical and I became Born Of The Spirit exactly the way that Jesus explains to Nicodemas..

Which is not a metaphor...you too need to understand that God is a Living Spirit who indwells the Spirit Of his child permanently..so please stop telling me what you think I need to know...I listen to the Living Spirit and will continue to do so..in Jesus Name..Amen!

If you don’t understand who Gods Living testimony is when Spirit gives birth to spirit...then I can’t help you with that...

God is Alive in my heart and I 100% know it...I don’t need to read any scripture to know that my spirit is Born Again...it seems that you do ..

I was given to Jesus by God...if you are having a hard job understanding that..then I suggest you take it up with God...

You chose him .you say,

I was chosen...I say..God gave me to Jesus...Praise His Holy Name!

 

[TLHKAJ]

No I don’t take all scripture as a whole...scripture did not testify to my spirit that it’s Born Again.

This explains everything! lol
You also do not believe Jesus is God, correct?

 

[Hey You!]

We were discussing limited atonement in another thread, but I feel like this particular point is slightly off topic from the specific doctrine and is more about an example from the Bible about how limited atonement itself cannot be true.

The example I would like to focus on, at least initially, is that of Judas Iscariot who was hand chosen by Jesus (Luke 6:12-16) and given to Jesus by the Father (John 6:70-71, John 17:12) which would mean that Judas was of the supposed elect that were given to Jesus prayed for in John 17:9. Please feel free to add any other examples of limited atonement failing or if you think I am flat-out wrong please explain why. Thank you.

So I will simply repeat the argument I made:

Judas is one of the Twelve, mentioned in Matthew 10:1-4. He has been specifically granted authority to cast out demons and to heal the sick just like the apostles and that authority was specifically mentioned by Jesus himself, totally to other believers in another part according to Mark 16:17. Such confirms Judas had been an authentic follower of Christ, assigned with the same function and authority as the other believers by the beginning.​

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In Matthew 19:27-29, Jesus makes a promise to the Twelve, which includes Judas, that they will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel, and will receive eternal life-a promise that becomes incomprehensible on the presumption that Judas was never saved.​

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Even in John 17:12, Jesus refers to Judas as "the son of destruction" who was "lost", implying that there was a time when he was considered one of those preserved and protected disciples before his betrayal. The terms of loss presuppose prior possession; one cannot lose that which he never had.​

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Thus it has been said in the Bible that Judas was a believer that fell away from grace in fulfilment of prophecy, but was not predestined from the very beginning to damnation.​

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This has the full correspondence with the wider biblical teaching about apostasy (see Hebrews 6:4-6 and 2 Peter 2:20-22) and strikes down the claim about Judas being only a false disciple.​

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The attempt to nullify the initial salvation of Judas amounts to avoidance of the clear scriptures of the Bible and balances across the warning which the scriptures pose against true believers falling away from Christ.​

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This proves that there is no way limited atonement may be true according to scripture.​

Isn't it true that Judas was Elected unto Service; Romans 9?

 

[Ritajanice]

This explains everything! lol
You also do not believe Jesus is God, correct?

It explains that you have no idea what I’m saying.

You have also posted in threads ,that if one doesn’t believe in Jesus, then they will die in their sins...unbiblical and a load of nonsense.

It seem that you have no idea who the Living Spirit is...as when I explained that scripture doesn’t testify with our spirit that we are Gods children. Only the Living Spirit can perform that divine Living act.

Tis the Living Spirit who testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children?

Do you understand how God testifies with our spirit...it appears that you don’t?


I’m then met with this from TLHKAJ..,because she has no idea what I am saying, which explains everything.

This explains everything! lol

 

[TLHKAJ]

It explains that you have no idea what I’m saying.

You have also posted in threads ,that if one doesn’t believe in Jesus, then they will die in their sins...unbiblical and a load of nonsense.

It seem that you have no idea who the Living Spirit is...as when I explained that scripture doesn’t testify with our spirit that we are Gods children. Only the Living Spirit can perform that divine Living act.

I’m then met with this from TLHKAJ..,because she has no idea what I am saying, which explains everything.

This explains everything! lol

You do not believe the Scripture, nor Jesus' testimony of who He is. I don't even need to continue discussing this with you.

 

[Hey You!]

You have also posted in threads ,that if one doesn’t believe in Jesus, then they will die in their sins...unbiblical and a load of nononsense.

What?!

That is Biblical...