Limited atonement is a false gospel

[Runningman]

We were discussing limited atonement in another thread, but I feel like this particular point is slightly off topic from the specific doctrine and is more about an example from the Bible about how limited atonement itself cannot be true.

The example I would like to focus on, at least initially, is that of Judas Iscariot who was hand chosen by Jesus (Luke 6:12-16) and given to Jesus by the Father (John 6:70-71, John 17:12) which would mean that Judas was of the supposed elect that were given to Jesus prayed for in John 17:9. Please feel free to add any other examples of limited atonement failing or if you think I am flat-out wrong please explain why. Thank you.

So I will simply repeat the argument I made:

Judas is one of the Twelve, mentioned in Matthew 10:1-4. He has been specifically granted authority to cast out demons and to heal the sick just like the apostles and that authority was specifically mentioned by Jesus himself, totally to other believers in another part according to Mark 16:17. Such confirms Judas had been an authentic follower of Christ, assigned with the same function and authority as the other believers by the beginning.​

​

In Matthew 19:27-29, Jesus makes a promise to the Twelve, which includes Judas, that they will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel, and will receive eternal life-a promise that becomes incomprehensible on the presumption that Judas was never saved.​

​

Even in John 17:12, Jesus refers to Judas as "the son of destruction" who was "lost", implying that there was a time when he was considered one of those preserved and protected disciples before his betrayal. The terms of loss presuppose prior possession; one cannot lose that which he never had.​

​

Thus it has been said in the Bible that Judas was a believer that fell away from grace in fulfilment of prophecy, but was not predestined from the very beginning to damnation.​

​

This has the full correspondence with the wider biblical teaching about apostasy (see Hebrews 6:4-6 and 2 Peter 2:20-22) and strikes down the claim about Judas being only a false disciple.​

​

The attempt to nullify the initial salvation of Judas amounts to avoidance of the clear scriptures of the Bible and balances across the warning which the scriptures pose against true believers falling away from Christ.​

​

This proves that there is no way limited atonement may be true according to scripture.​

 

[Dash RipRock]

Limited atonement is a false gospel

Yes, the doctrine of demons known as limited atonement is false teaching

Glad to see there are still some that recognize false teachings when they see it.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, the doctrine of demons known as limited atonement is false teaching

Glad to see there are still some that recognize false teachings when they see it.

Well, what I presented above probably does not only step on the toes of limited atonement, but others as well. However, it says what it says and it's Scriptural none the less.

 

[Ritajanice]

You I’m afraid haven’t proved that limited atonement is a false teaching...you have given your commentary on what “ you” and a few others want to believe that limited atonement is a false teaching..

Many commentaries on the internet who disagree with you...it can’t imo be proven either way..

There is scripture for limited atonement..there is also scripture against limited atonement...and I’m afraid, scripture can and does get misinterpreted / twisted , to say what they want it to say..by many on this very forum..

One member says, scripture is saying what they believe it to be saying..then along comes another member who counteracts what the other member is saying...then puts their understanding of scripture forward .....to say what they believe it to be saying....because they all believe what they believe..( for limited atonement/ against limited atonement) .therefore it must be true LOL.....so, it’s a merry go round..of those who believe in limited atonement and those who don’t believe in limited atonement...

Also ,just because the majority on threads don’t believe in limited atonement..doesn’t make it true...like everyone else..they give their own opinions ..

So there we have it.....

 

[Ritajanice]

Well, what I presented above probably does not only step on the toes of limited atonement, but others as well. However, it says what it says and it's Scriptural none the less.

Why would it step on the toes of those who believe in limited atonement...all you’ve done is post scripture that you believe is against limited atonement...they do the same , they post scripture to support limited atonement...only you all dismiss what the others are posting , ..I’ve been following this thread for quite some time....I don’t fully understand limited atonement..only the Living Spirit can bring me to understand limited atonement..again, that’s my belief.

Brightfame has posted some scripture on the support of limited atonement..you too have posted scripture that doesn’t support limited atonement....why get up in arms over it...when neither one of you can prove that it isn’t true or that it is true,,,it’s just a constant repeat of what you all believe....have you got any further with trying to force the other to believe what you both believe..of course you haven’t...because you are all intrenched in what you believe...regarding limited atonement...or in your case, you believe limited atonement is false teaching...and can’t see out of that teaching, ...Brightfame does the same, he can’t see out of his belief for limited atonement ....therefore you go round in circles....been there done that...probably still do at times..only on different subjects..

Limited atonement I don’t fully understand...I’ve read online those who believe in limited atonement and those who don’t believe in limited atonement...both cases are supported using scripture.

You only seem to want to discuss the scripture that you understand, Brightfame does the same...then you both dismiss what the other is posting..and twist what scripture is actually saying, imo.....it’s all over that other thread..I guess this thread will turn out the same.

 

[Ritajanice]

Here we have scripture against limited atonement.

Luke 19:10 (RSV) For the Son of man came to seek and to save the lost. (cf. “sinners”: Matt 9:13; Mk 2:17; Lk 5:32; 1 Tim 1:15)

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

John 4:42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of your words that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”

John 6:33 For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.

John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world; he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

John 12:31-33 “Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out; [32] and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” [33] He said this to show by what death he was to die.

John 12:46-47 I have come as light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. [47] If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

John 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so thatthe world may believe that thou hast sent me. (cf. 17:23)

 

[Ritajanice]

God chose Judas Iscariot to fulfill Gods plan....Jesus also knew from day one that Judas would betray him...Judas was predestined to betray Jesus...God knows beginning to end.....he can see our hearts from beginning to end..

Predestined: In John 17:12, Jesus calls Judas “the son of destruction” and says he was “doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.” This suggests that Judas was chosen for this role and had no real choice in the matter.

Free Will: In Matthew 26:24, Jesus says, “Woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” If Judas had no choice, why would Jesus pronounce woe upon him? Some argue that Judas acted out of his own greed and was not forced to betray Jesus.

 

[Ritajanice]

Here we have scripture in agreement with limited atonement.

• Matt. 1:21 “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
• Matt. 20:28 “… just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
• Matt. 26:28 “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
• John 10:11, 15 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.”
• Acts 13:48 “Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”
• Acts 20:28 “Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.”
• Rom. 8:32-34 “He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.”
• Eph. 5:25-27 “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish.”
• Heb. 2:17 “Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.”
• Heb. 9:15, 28 “And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.”
• Rev. 5:9 “And they sang a new song, saying: You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.”

 

[One 2 question]

Here we have scripture that supports limited atonement.

So you see what you see.

• Matt. 1:21 “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Who are 'His people' He died for?

• Matt. 20:28 “… just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

Why did God ransom some but not

• Acts 13:48 “Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”

For what purpose were some appointed to eternal life?

• Acts 20:28 “Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.”

• Rom. 8:32-34 “He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.”

Why did He elect some in particular while overlooking others?

• Eph. 5:25-27 “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish.”
• Heb. 2:17 “Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.”
• Heb. 9:15, 28 “And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.”

Purpose: that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. What is that inheritance?

• Rev. 5:9 “And they sang a new song, saying: You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.”

Christ....redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.”

And why were these few chosen out from amoung all tribes, all tongues, all people, all nations? There has been billions who have been up for grabs.

Would you say....obviously they were not required.

Was it like in the days of Noah? God chose 2 animals from every species to enter the ark for a purpose. Again, for a purpose.

 

[Ritajanice]

So you see what you see.


Who are 'His people' He died for?


Why did God ransom some but not

For what purpose were some appointed to eternal life?


Why did He elect some in particular while overlooking others?

I posted scripture that supports limited atonement....I don’t know all the answers to your questions...maybe you can answer them from your own perspective?

Purpose: that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. What is that inheritance?

Eternal life..is for all those who are Born Of The Spirit...there is still suffering as long as we live on this earth.


I can’t wait to be free from pain and suffering..

Your inheritance is a future time and place without sin or death or tears or pain

Christ....redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.”

It’s because of the death and resurrection that we can be reconciled back to God...my spirit is reconciled back to God, when he decided to give birth to my spirit, I had no say in the matter.

And why were these few chosen out from amoung all tribes, all tongues, all people, all nations? There has been billions who have been up for grabs.

Because God does the choosing..man in their arrogance think / believe that they chose God.

Would you say....obviously they were not required.

Was it like in the days of Noah? God chose 2 animals from every species to enter the ark for a purpose. Again, for a purpose.

Noah has got nothing to do with being Born Of The Spirit...so not sure why you asked me that question.

 

[Ritajanice]

Who are 'His people' He died for?

All those who have been supernaturally birthed by the Living Spirit Of God?

The Born Again who are Gods elect.."those who were chosen before the foundation of the world to become his spirit children.

King James Dictionary - Predestinated Determined beforehand.God determines who are his, not the other way around.

Romans 8​

​

King James Version​

​

​

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Ritajanice]

Why did He elect some in particular while overlooking others?

Don’t know...but, he obviously has...that’s why he says that we must be Born Again....again there is a misunderstanding of what that means....many different understanding of what that means as we can see on the forum..

How does one know that their spirit is Born Again?

Verses of scripture can’t testify that to one’s spirit, but, many think they can...hence so much confusion regarding scripture all over this forum...everyone thinks that they are in Gods truth..

None can prove it though....they just post what they believe, that’s what we all do.

Unfortunately there are a few who think they are “ superior “ in their understanding of scripture...or maybe we are all like that.

 

[One 2 question]

I posted scripture that supports limited atonement....I don’t know all the answers to your questions...maybe you can answer them from your own perspective?

To your understanding, why is it limited?

 

[Ritajanice]

To your understanding, why is it limited?

It’s limited like I already explained to you, to the Born Again..they are Gods elect....yes or no @One 2 question . .which means what to you?

How does our spirit know that it’s Born Again...which is not off topic...because if you don’t understand Born Again how can you understand limited atonement @One 2 question ?

 

[One 2 question]

Verses of scripture can’t testify that to one’s spirit, but, many think they can...hence so much confusion regarding scripture all over this forum...everyone thinks that they are in Gods truth..

What part does the Spirit have in all this? Often I find He has no part in it at all.

 

[One 2 question]

It’s limited like I already explained to you, to the Born Again..they are Gods elect....yes or no @One 2 question . .which means what to you?

How does our spirit know that it’s Born Again...which is not off topic...because if you don’t understand Born Again how can you understand limited atonement @One 2 question ?

I was more asking WHY it is limited to the Elect? Why are they elected in particular and not others?

 

[Ritajanice]

What part does the Spirit have in all this? Often I find He has no part in it at all.

Who testifies with our spirit?

How would my spirit know that it’s Born Again @One 2 question ..by whose Living testimony?

Remember I became Born Again with no Bible in sight..so, how would my spirit know that it’s been birthed into the Spirit of Christ?

Do you see @One 2 question how we are all on different levels of spiritual understanding?

Are you actually understanding what I post?

Being honest, I don’t understand a lot of what you post...because we understand differently..obviously.

 

[Ritajanice]

I was more asking WHY it is limited to the Elect? Why are they elected in particular and not others?

Only God knows the answer to that question, I just know that I’m one of the elect.Born Of The Spirit..Born Again Of imperishable seed?

Now..can you answer my questions instead of counteracting them..many thanks?

 

[One 2 question]

It’s limited like I already explained to you, to the Born Again..they are Gods elect....yes or no

Yes, elected by God. For a particular purpose.

How does our spirit know that it’s Born Again...which is not off topic...because if you don’t understand Born Again how can you understand limited atonement?

Yes, those who have been given divine life, been born again, can see what the Spirit shows and hear what the Spirit says. A dead person can't see or hear anything.

 

[One 2 question]

Only God knows the answer to that question, I just know that I’m one of the elect.Born Of The Spirit..Born Again Of imperishable seed?

Have you asked the Spirit this question?

Now..can you answer my questions instead of counteracting them..many thanks?

Done