Leaders That Don't Support Good Works or Overcoming Sin
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Marvelloustime
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Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
Marvelloustime
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I hold to cessationism brother long before I even read Johnny Mac since there is to this day a theological debate on this issue which is not even salvivic and there is a difference between the ministerial gifts which I believe is still operative but not signs, wonders and miracles--I knew it was a mistake telling you about John MacArthur.
So we can agree to disagree on this since there are no more little gods or prophets, or Apostles running around.
The Word of God (vv. 19–21). Apart from God’s
Word, we have no certain revelation from the Lord.
Worship that ignores the Bible is not spiritual. There
may be emotion—and even commotion—but unless
there is spiritual truth, the Holy Spirit is not at work.
The three admonitions in these verses go together and
help us understand how the Holy Spirit works in
Christian worship.
The early church did not have a completed Bible as
we do. The Holy Spirit gave the gift of prophecy to certain members of the church and would speak the
message through them. When I preach in a church
service, I preach the truth immediately by means of the
Bible. These early prophets preached the truth immediately as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. Their
spiritual knowledge was given to them by the Spirit,
and often they spoke in a tongue. This is why the three
gifts of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge are grouped
together in 1 Corinthians 13.
Of course, there are dangers in this kind of ministry, because Satan (or the flesh) could seek to
counterfeit a message from God, and thus lead the
church astray. If the church restrained the speakers,
they might be guilty of quenching the Spirit. If they
believed all that was spoken, they might be obeying
false spirits. The answer was to “prove all things.” There
must be a discerning of the spirits (1 Cor. 12:10; 1
John 4:1–4). Paul gave specific rules for this in 1
Corinthians 14:29–33.
Today, we have a completed revelation in the Word
of God and there is no need for prophets. The apostles
and prophets helped lay the foundation of the church
(Eph. 2:20) and have now passed from the scene. The
only “prophetic ministry” we have is in the preaching
and teaching of the Word of God.
In using the word quench, Paul pictured the Spirit
of God as fire (see Isa. 4:4; Acts 2:3; Rev. 4:5). Fire
speaks of purity, power, light, warmth, and (if necessary) destruction. When the Holy Spirit is at work in
our lives and churches, we have a warmth of love in our
hearts, light for our minds, and energy for our wills. He
“melts us together” so that there is harmony and cooperation, and He purifies us so that we put away sin.
The fire of the Spirit must not go out on the altar
of our hearts; we must maintain that devotion to
Christ that motivates and energizes our lives.
Wiersbe.
Quench not the Spirit
Since he is the inspirer of prayer, and the bestower of all gifts of grace on the Church. Comp. Eph_4:30. The operation of the Spirit is set forth under the image of fire in Mat_3:11; Luk_12:49; Act_2:3, Act_2:4. The reference here is to the work of the Spirit generally, and not specially to his inspiration of prayer or prophecy.
VWP
5:19
NASB, NKJV, NRSV, Peshitta "Do not quench the Spirit"
TEV "Do not restrain the Holy Spirit"
NJB "Never try to suppress the Spirit"
REB "Do not stifle inspiration"
Verses 19-20 are PRESENT ACTIVE IMPERTIVES with the NEGATIVE PARTICLE, usually meaning stop an act in process. The Williams translation has "stop stifling the Spirit." The five IMPERATIVES of 1 Thess. 5:19-22 must go together. The first two NEGATIVE IMPERATIVES of 1 Thess. 5:19, 20 set the boundaries for the three POSITIVE IMPERATIVES of 1 Thess. 5:21-22. "Quench" means "to put out a fire." Our actions affect the working of the Spirit (cf. Isa. 63:10; Eph. 4:30).
5:20
NASB "do not despise prophetic utterances"
NKJV "Do not despise prophecies"
NRSV "Do not despise the words of prophets"
TEV "do not despise inspired messages"
NJB "never. . .treat the gift of prophecy with contempt"
The definition of "prophecy" in the NT has been much debated. The gift is included in the list of spiritual gifts in 1 Cor. 12:28-29 and Eph. 4:11. How the Scripture writing prophets of the OT are related to the post-apostolic gift of "prophecy" is uncertain. Most scholars want to limit inspiration/revelation to the NT period (i.e., "the Faith which was once for all delivered to the saints," cf. Jude).
Clearly NT prophets are not synonymous with OT prophets. The NT gift usually relates to practical application issues, not new revelatory information. However, there is a predictive element in Acts 11:27-30 and 21:10-11. In 1 and 2 Corinthians prophecy and prophesy (cf. 1 Cor. 13:1; 14:1,39) mean proclaim the gospel. Exactly how this proclamation differed between apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers (i.e., Eph. 4:11) is uncertain.
Verse 20 is in some way related to 1 Thess. 5:19. Exactly how this fits into the Thessalonian church is uncertain. Believers must vigorously reject false leaders, but enthusiastically embrace godly leaders (possibly Jewish trouble makers).
Utley.
1 Thessalonians 5:19 (KJV)
"Quench not the Spirit."
Context and Explanation
Immediate Context
1 Thessalonians 5:16-22:
Verses 16-18: "Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you."
Verse 20: "Despise not prophesyings."
Verse 21: "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."
Verse 22: "Abstain from all appearance of evil."
Paul is giving a series of final instructions to the Thessalonian believers, which includes rejoicing, constant prayer, giving thanks, not despising prophecies, testing everything, holding onto what is good, and avoiding evil.
Cessationist Interpretation
Quenching the Spirit:
General Guidance: Cessationists understand "quenching the Spirit" as a broad admonition not to suppress or ignore the Holy Spirit’s work. This includes maintaining a life characterized by joy, prayer, and gratitude, as these are Spirit-produced qualities (Galatians 5:22-23).
Spiritual Sensitivity: It emphasizes the need for believers to be sensitive to the Spirit’s leading in aspects such as understanding Scripture, growing in holiness, and fostering a godly community.
Despising Prophecies:
Historical Context: During the apostolic age, prophecies were a way God communicated directly with the church. Cessationists believe that once the canon of Scripture was completed, the need for such direct revelation ceased.
Modern Application: Today, this might be understood as valuing and adhering to the already revealed Word of God in Scripture. Rather than expecting new prophetic revelations, believers are encouraged to study and apply the Bible, which the Holy Spirit uses to teach and guide them (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
Proving All Things:
Discernment: Cessationists place a strong emphasis on testing and discerning teachings and practices against the completed revelation of Scripture. This is consistent with the exhortation in 1 John 4:1 to "test the spirits to see whether they are from God."
Theological Implications
Role of the Holy Spirit:
Illumination: The Holy Spirit continues to play a crucial role in illuminating Scripture, enabling believers to understand and apply its truths (John 16:13).
Sanctification: The Spirit is essential for sanctification, transforming believers into the image of Christ through the Word (2 Corinthians 3:18).
Avoiding Extremes:
Guarding Against Emotionalism: Cessationists caution against equating emotional experiences or subjective impressions with the Spirit’s leading, emphasizing the objective truth of Scripture as the primary guide.
Rejecting Charismatic Excesses: They reject practices and doctrines that claim ongoing miraculous gifts or new revelations, viewing these as potentially distracting from or undermining the sufficiency of Scripture.
Practical Application
Scriptural Study:
Diligent Study: Believers should be diligent in studying the Bible, relying on the Holy Spirit to illuminate and apply its truths in their lives (Psalm 119:18).
Sound Doctrine: They should seek sound teaching and doctrine, ensuring that their beliefs and practices align with biblical revelation (Titus 1:9).
Spiritual Growth:
Prayer and Holiness: Cessationists emphasize the importance of prayer, personal holiness, and dependence on the Spirit for daily Christian living (Ephesians 6:18).
Community Life: They encourage fostering a godly community through mutual edification, accountability, and adherence to scriptural principles (Hebrews 10:24-25).
Conclusion
From a cessationist perspective, 1 Thessalonians 5:19, "Quench not the Spirit," is understood as a call to maintain sensitivity to the Holy Spirit’s ongoing work through the Scriptures and in the sanctification of believers. It emphasizes living a Spirit-led life characterized by joy, prayer, gratitude, and adherence to biblical truth. While cessationists believe that certain miraculous gifts have ceased, they affirm the essential and continuous role of the Holy Spirit in illuminating Scripture, guiding believers, and transforming lives.
I don't fall in with the world's way of thinking and interpreting Scriptures--but we have little gods all for spectacular "gifts" and emotional experiences-just go by what stands written.
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1 THESSALONIANS—NOTE ON 5:20 prophecies. This phrase can refer to a spoken
revelation from God (cf. Acts 11:27–28; 1 Tim. 1:18; 4:14), but most often refers
to the written word of Scripture (cf. Matt. 13:14; 2 Pet. 1:19–21; Rev. 1:3; 22:7,
10, 18–19). These “prophecies” are authoritative messages from God through a
well recognized spokesman for God that, because of their divine origin, are not
to be treated lightly. When God’s word is preached or read, it is to be received
with great seriousness.
MacArthur
Noun - Accusative Feminine Plural
Strong's no.: G4394 (προφητεία)
Meaning: Prophecy, prophesying; the gift of communicating and enforcing revealed truth.
Guess this is where you and I part ways over a non salvivc issue--I can walk alone, though I know I am not truly alone.
1 THESSALONIANS—NOTE ON 5:21–22 test everything. This call for careful
testing and discernment is in response to the command of v. 20. One is never to
downgrade the proclamation of God’s word, but to examine the preached word
carefully (cf. Acts 17:10–11). What is found to be “good” is to be
wholeheartedly embraced. What is “evil” or unbiblical is to be shunned.
Here are some scriptures then brother. And remember that scripture cannot be broken and that the words of Jesus will never pass away:
Luk 11:20
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
Luk 10:17-20
The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”
Mar 16:14-18
Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Jhn 16:23-27
And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Luk 11:5-13
And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves;
For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him?
And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.
I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him
Jhn 14:11-14
Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
LUKE—NOTE ON 11:20 by the finger of God. In Ex. 8:19 the phony magicians of
Egypt were forced to confess that Moses’ miracles were genuine works of God,
not mere trickery such as they had performed. Here Jesus made a similar
comparison between his exorcisms and the work of the Jewish exorcists. the
kingdom of God has come.
Forgetting context
When the Twelve and the Seventy were preaching, they
did not see the “wise and learned” humbling themselves to receive God’s truth and grace, but they saw the
“common people” trusting the Word (Luke 7:29–30; 1
Cor. 1:26–29). In His sovereign will, God has ordained
that sinners must humble themselves before they can
be lifted up (James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:6).
Christ’s ambassadors were indeed privileged people.
They were able to see and hear things that the greatest
saints in the Old Testament ages yearned to see and
hear but could not. The Messiah was at work, and they
were a part of His work!
Neglecting context
JOHN—NOTE ON 16:23 In that day. This is a reference to Pentecost when the
Holy Spirit came (Acts 2:1–13) and sorrow turned to joy. This is a reference also
to the “last days,” which were inaugurated after his resurrection and the Spirit’s
coming (Acts 2:17; 2 Tim. 3:1; Heb. 1:2; James 5:3; 2 Pet. 3:3; 1 John 2:18). ask
nothing of me. After Jesus’ departure and sending of the Spirit, believers will no
longer ask him since he is not present. Instead, they will ask the Father in his
name (see notes on John 16:26–28; 14:13–14).
Can't believe you think solely on signs, miracles and wonders-
Promises for prayer (vv. 9–13). The tenses of the
verbs are important here: “Keep on asking … keep on
seeking … keep on knocking.” In other words, don’t
come to God only in the midnight emergencies, but
keep in constant communion with your Father. Jesus
called this “abiding” (John 15:1ff.), and Paul exhorted,
“Pray without ceasing” (1 Thess. 5:17). As we pray,
God will either answer or show us why He cannot
answer. Then it is up to us to do whatever is necessary
in our lives so that the Father can trust us with the
answer.
Note that the lesson closes with an emphasis on God
Luke 11
173
as Father (Luke 11:11–13). Because He knows us and
loves us, we never need to be afraid of the answers that He
gives. Again, Jesus argued from the lesser to the greater:
if an earthly father gives what is best to his children,
surely the Father in heaven will do even more. This even
includes “the good things of the Holy Spirit” (compare
Luke 11:13 with Matt. 7:11), blessings that in the Old
Testament were reserved only for a special few
Again-ignoring context-
JOHN—NOTE ON 14:12 greater works than these will he do. Jesus did not mean
greater works in power, but in extent. They would become witnesses to all the
world through the power of the indwelling and infilling of the Holy Spirit (Acts
1:8) and would bring many to salvation because of the Helper dwelling in them.
The focus is on spiritual rather than physical miracles. The book of Acts
constitutes the beginning historical record of the impact that the Spiritempowered disciples had on the world (cf. Acts 17:6). because I am going to
the Father. The only way Jesus’ disciples would be able to be used to do those
greater works was through the power of the Holy Spirit, and he could not be sent
as the Helper until Jesus returned to the Father (John 14:26; 7:39).
Please read Miles Coverdale on how to contextualize and note the recipients of the text before us since there are a lot to learn on expository preaching.
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Context:
2 Peter 1:16-21 provides the immediate context for this verse:
Verse 16: Peter begins by affirming that the apostles did not follow cleverly devised myths but were eyewitnesses of Christ's majesty.
Verses 17-18: He recounts the Transfiguration of Jesus, where they heard the voice of God declaring Jesus as His beloved Son.
Verse 19: "And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts."
Verses 20-21: Peter emphasizes that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation, but from men who spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Greek Word Study:
"More sure" (βεβαιότερον, bebaioteron): This word means more firm, reliable, or certain. It underscores the reliability and steadfastness of the prophetic word.
"Prophetic word" (προφητικὸν λόγον, prophētikon logon): Refers to the messages delivered by the prophets, which are now confirmed and validated by the apostles' experiences and the fulfillment in Christ.
"Lamp" (λύχνος, lychnos): Symbolizes guidance and illumination in a dark place, representing the clarity and direction provided by the prophetic word.
"Dark place" (αὐχμηρῷ τόπῳ, auchmērō topō): Indicates the world filled with spiritual darkness, in need of the light of God's word.
Theological Implications:
The Reliability of Scripture:
Peter emphasizes that the prophetic Scriptures (Old Testament prophecies) are reliable and confirmed. This confirmation comes through the fulfillment of prophecies in Christ and the apostles' eyewitness accounts, especially the Transfiguration, which validated Jesus’ divine nature and mission.
Supremacy of Scripture over Experience:
Despite the profound experience of witnessing the Transfiguration, Peter asserts the superiority and reliability of the prophetic word (Scripture). This underscores that experiences, even those as significant as the Transfiguration, must be tested and confirmed by Scripture.
Guidance in a Dark World:
The prophetic word is described as a lamp shining in a dark place, indicating its role in providing guidance and truth in a world marred by sin and ignorance. Believers are encouraged to pay close attention to Scripture until the ultimate revelation of Christ's return ("the day dawns and the morning star rises").
Authority and Divine Origin of Scripture:
Peter concludes by affirming that the prophecies did not originate from human will or interpretation but were spoken by men carried along by the Holy Spirit. This emphasizes the divine authority and inspiration of the Scriptures.
Summary:
2 Peter 1:19, within its context, affirms the reliability and divine origin of the prophetic Scriptures, which are more certain and steadfast than even the most extraordinary spiritual experiences. The Greek terms used highlight the firm and illuminating nature of God's word, providing guidance and truth in a spiritually dark world. The passage underscores the importance of grounding one's faith and understanding in the authoritative, inspired Scriptures, which are validated by the fulfillment of prophecy and the testimony of the apostles.
Understand?
I would suggest to you that those seeking signs and wonders are those showing the abuses of this doctrine. Signs and wonders, "unusual miracles", these were attest the authenticity of the Apostles while they were establishing the church
But those seeking to serve others in love find supernatural power to minister to the children of God.
Did you know that the signs and wonders stopped being recorded in the Bible after Israel's final rejection of Jesus in Acts 28? Have you wondered why that is? Jews seek a sign, and the signs were for them. Greeks seek after wisdom. The foolishness of the cross saves. Even so, God is grand, gives grand gestures, and to the Jews He gave many signs, and to the Greeks He gave much wisdom. Still, it's only the foolishness of preaching, the cross.
No, my brother, signs and wonders are not being given today. There are many who counterfeit. Yes, God heals, and works miracles, only not as Apostles walk down the street, healing all upon whom their shadow passes.
Much love!
Thank you brother--I thought I'd lost my marbles since this is all that matters from most members, not rightly dividing the Scriptures.
I simply cannot believe what is being promulgated here.
And thank you for your patience with me.
J.
Marks, what am I not getting here? It sounds like a contradiction......signs and wonders are not being given today, yet God still heals and does miracles and there is still supernatural power to minister...?
I would like to know why it is assumed that those who believe God still works in mysterious ways and does His "strange work" today are abusing and counterfeiting and chasing after signs and wonders? Does God change? Many may be abusing and chasing after things, but not everyone is. We are not to let the left hand know what the right hand is doing.....it becomes a snare and an idol for those who give miracles undo attention.....Jesus said to rejoice rather that our names are written in heaven. He has given us guardrails....because we need them, not because we don't.
As for Jews wanting a "sign"....well there are still plenty of unbelieving Jews around and they have not been cast off irretrievably if they come to believe.....if God wants to give someone a sign who are we to argue with Him? He doesn't ask our permission, He just does what He does....we are just to quench not the Spirit but yield to Him.
Jesus said you cannot tell where the wind is coming from and where it is going....and SO IT IS WITH EVERYONE WHO IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT. Philip being translated to another location is an example of this. People of God can still experience that today, if/when it is God's will and suits His purpose. His word has not passed away has it? NO, since scripture says it will not pass away.
Jesus was quite the "mystical" person....when you look at such things as His transfiguration....and how He miraculously slipped through a crowd of people who were grabbing Him and trying to throw Him off a cliff.....and how some said of Him that He was "beside Himself". Walked through walls and appeared/disappeared too. If He is the example we are to follow is it impossible that we can be like Him?
It's just "Lord here am I, send me." Not going to try and tell Him what He may or may not do.
It is HE who is in us isn't it? GREATER is He who is in us than he who is in the world? We are to serve in the new way of the SPIRIT. And according to the bible yes we do get to taste the powers of the world to come. We need to increase our faith, not stifle it.
Multitudes came to Jesus, and He healed them all. Over and over this happened. After He ascended to heaven, though His Apostles these same things continued, as Peter's shadow healed everyone it touched. Clothes sent from Paul healed everyone they touched. "Unusual miracles", it says. Extraordinary miracles, in which great numbers of people were healed, all out in the open.
Just like no one in Israel could deny the works Jesus died, the same was true for the Apostles, in each case authenticating their ministry.
We pray for each other, we pray for ourselves, we pray in our churches, that God will heal me, or that person, and sometimes He does. Sometimes by the laying on of hands, other times in other ways. This is written in the places that also tells us about gifts of encouraging, and leading, and teaching, and prophecy, and giving, and mercy, and so forth. "Gifts of healings" it says, as though each is a single gift, rather than the "gift of healing" as though the person could heal any and every person.
In the signs and wonders, I see God giving His seal of approval to those certain men, Steven, Paul, Peter, the others, who were to establish the foundation for us. In the gifts of ministry, I see how each of us are building on that foundation - or not. Does our serving outside of God's intent actually build His church?
Much love!
Bible says "GREAT grace was upon them all" back then. We are not living in a time/place of GREAT grace, at this time in the west especially I would say. But that doesn't mean it isn't possible or that it is for us to draw a line around it. There are times and seasons.....I believe we might see great grace again and maybe even greater in the end to meet the need and to harvest souls at that time...maybe that is even when we will see "the greater works" that Jesus spoke about.
Metaphysical, absolutely!
You are hid with Christ in God, and when He appears, you will appear with Him.
"I've been co-crucified with Christ, yet I live . . ."
These and more say plainly to me that we are mystically joined to Christ.
Much love!
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