Leaders That Don't Support Good Works or Overcoming Sin

[Johann]

And then look at the confusion that has arisen from the early church fathers and Catholic doctrines with their religious dogmas, especially in this age of enlightenment. Scripture warns against such confusion and calls for clarity and adherence to the truth found in God's Word.

1 Corinthians 14:33 - "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints."

Colossians 2:8 - "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ."

1 Timothy 4:1 - "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons."

Galatians 1:6-9 - "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."

2 Peter 2:1 - "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction."

Matthew 15:9 - "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

These scriptures highlight the importance of discernment and the necessity to remain grounded in the pure and unaltered gospel of Christ, avoiding the confusion and misguidance that can arise from human traditions and doctrines.

And since you have a negative opinion on the Reformers--

The Reformation, despite its challenges and the diversity of opinions it brought forth, sought to return to the foundational truths of the Bible and emphasized the authority of Scripture over human tradition. The Reformation reaffirmed key biblical doctrines and encouraged believers to study the Scriptures for themselves, fostering a deeper understanding of the truth.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 - "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

John 8:31-32 - "Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, 'If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'"

Romans 1:16 - "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek."

Acts 17:11 - "These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so."

1 Thessalonians 5:21 - "Test all things; hold fast what is good."

The Reformation highlighted the importance of returning to the clear teachings of the Bible, emphasizing salvation by grace through faith, the priesthood of all believers, and the necessity of personal engagement with God's Word. While human opinions and interpretations may vary, the core truths of the gospel remain unchanged and accessible to all who seek them diligently in Scripture.

Think again.

 

[Johann]

Anybody can copy-paste bible verses...and then draw astoundingly silly conclusions. Look at all the confusion brought out from the Reformation. Thousands of human opinions, religious preferences, personal interpretations... rinse and repeat. But the truth? Nary a one.

I'll read the Reformers and their teachings any day than listening to you and your modern gospel @Episkopos.

 

[Johann]

There are parts of God's word that you are denying and trying to explain away. We need to have the mind of Christ for the things that are written. Our reliance needs to be on the Holy Spirit, not the carnal intellect WHICH CANNOT PERCEIVE THE THINGS OF GOD.

Accepting the Scriptures as a whole means acknowledging the entirety of the Bible as inspired by God and authoritative for our lives. We don't pick and choose what parts to follow; instead, we recognize that every part of Scripture has its purpose and contributes to the complete revelation of God's will.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 - "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Not Relying on Human Intellect
When faced with accusations of relying on human intellect, it is crucial to demonstrate that our foundation is firmly rooted in Scripture. The Bible instructs us explicitly not to rely on our own understanding but to trust in God's wisdom and guidance.

Proverbs 3:5-6 - "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths."

Avoiding Additions and Exceeding Boundaries
Scripture warns against adding to or taking away from God's Word. This principle ensures that we remain faithful to the divine revelation without introducing human alterations that could distort its truth.

Deuteronomy 4:2 - "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."

Revelation 22:18-19 - "For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Continual Reliance on the Holy Spirit
A continuous reliance on the Holy Spirit is essential for understanding and applying Scripture correctly. The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, illuminates our understanding, and empowers us to live out God's commands.

John 14:26 - "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."

John 16:13 - "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come."

God-Honoring and Biblically Sound Exegesis and Expository Preaching
Our interpretation and teaching of Scripture (exegesis and exposition) should always aim to honor God and remain true to the biblical text. This involves careful study, prayerful consideration, and a commitment to presenting the Bible's message accurately and faithfully.

2 Timothy 2:15 - "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Titus 2:1 - "But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine."
1 Peter 4:11 - "If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen."
In summary, our approach to Scripture must be holistic, trusting fully in God's wisdom and guidance, avoiding any alteration of His Word, and continually relying on the Holy Spirit. Our teaching and preaching should always aim to honor God and remain biblically sound, ensuring that we faithfully communicate His truth.

Thanks
J.

 

[Episkopos]

And then look at the confusion that has arisen from the early church fathers and Catholic doctrines with their religious dogmas, especially in this age of enlightenment. Scripture warns against such confusion and calls for clarity and adherence to the truth found in God's Word.

1 Corinthians 14:33 - "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints."

Colossians 2:8 - "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ."

1 Timothy 4:1 - "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons."

Galatians 1:6-9 - "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."

2 Peter 2:1 - "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction."

Matthew 15:9 - "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

These scriptures highlight the importance of discernment and the necessity to remain grounded in the pure and unaltered gospel of Christ, avoiding the confusion and misguidance that can arise from human traditions and doctrines.

I see the Reformation doing the confusing...even as it sought to clarify a bad practice in the RC system. I say practice, not doctrines. Anybody who needs to throw out part of the bible to make his ideas work...is out to lunch. (like Luther wanted to throw out the book of James, since he was about to destroy any understanding of righteousness to promote his false understanding of imputation)

Luther noticed and sought to correct the bad practices of the RC system. But the problem was he also threw out proper doctrine. He threw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak.

If one can think for even a minute that God would allow the church to have salvation all wrong for well over a thousand years until the reformers came along. ...then one is NOT understanding what God is looking for. The RC system supported righteousness, in spite of the religious deviations in practice. Like the Orthodox church supports holiness even in spite of a human religious practice.

The Protestant reformers supported NEITHER righteousness or holiness. They invented a higher justification while ignoring the basic sinful nature, and took away simple obedience to God by calling that a false gospel of works. TOTAL chaos and lawlessness. Let not many be teachers is right! For any that are paying attention, we know which are rejected as lawless on judgment day in spite of their claims of having Jesus as their Lord.

 

[Episkopos]

I'll read the Reformers and their teachings any day than listening to you and your modern gospel @Episkopos.

And you are welcome to the reformation ideas....as God Himself allows this...to test those who have no love for the truth...but only care for what is beneficial to them. God weeds all self-seekers out of His kingdom.

If you could only see the gospel apart from yourself...

What I seek to restore is the ancient paths...what has become overgrown with thistles and thorns. I speak of the ways of God (plural) and the WAY of God in Christ. No superficial reading of what I write will get a person to become dislodged from an already deviated understanding. But I point to a higher walk...in holiness...in a deeper stream that brings actual life.

 

[Johann]

I see the Reformation doing the confusing...even as it tries to clarify a bad practice in the RC system. I say practice, not doctrines. Anybody who needs to throw out part of the bible to make his ideas work...is out to lunch. (like Luther wanted to throw out the book of James, since he was about to destroy any understanding of righteousness to promote his false understanding of imputation)

The Reformation, led by figures like Martin Luther, aimed to address and correct certain practices within the Roman Catholic Church that were seen as corrupt or misleading. However, it is crucial to understand the complexities and consequences of these reforms and their impact on Christian doctrine and practice.

Reformation’s Intent and Impact
Addressing Corrupt Practices:

Martin Luther and other reformers sought to address practices like the selling of indulgences, which they believed distorted the biblical message of salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."
Challenges to Doctrine:

While the Reformation clarified certain theological points, such as justification by faith, it also led to the rejection of some traditional doctrines and practices, which caused significant division within Christianity.
James 2:24 - "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (This verse shows the balance between faith and works, which Luther struggled with and famously called the book of James an "epistle of straw.")
The Consequences of Rejecting Scripture
Rejecting Parts of the Bible:

Luther’s difficulty with the book of James highlights the danger of discarding parts of Scripture that challenge our theological positions. The Bible should be accepted as a whole, and all parts should be harmonized.
2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
Maintaining Proper Doctrine:

True reformation should refine and return the Church to biblical truth rather than discard essential doctrines. The early church, despite its issues, upheld many core truths about righteousness and holiness.
Matthew 5:17-19 - "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Theological Errors and Misunderstandings
Misunderstanding of Justification:

The reformers emphasized justification by faith, but this was sometimes misunderstood as negating the importance of righteous living and obedience to God’s commandments.
Romans 3:31 - "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."
Holiness and Righteousness:

Both the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church emphasize righteousness and holiness, even if their practices sometimes diverge. This focus should not be lost in the pursuit of doctrinal purity.
Hebrews 12:14 - "Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord."
Judgment and Accountability
Responsibility of Teachers:

Those who teach and lead within the Church carry a great responsibility to ensure they are correctly interpreting and teaching Scripture. The Reformation reminds us of the importance of returning to the Bible, but also warns of the dangers of going too far and creating new errors.
James 3:1 - "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment."
Lawlessness and False Assurance:

Jesus warned that not everyone who calls Him 'Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of His Father. This underscores the need for true obedience and righteous living, not merely a verbal profession of faith.
Matthew 7:21-23 - "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"
Conclusion
The Reformation brought necessary corrections to certain practices within the Roman Catholic Church but also introduced theological challenges and divisions. A balanced approach to Scripture, accepting it as a whole and relying on the Holy Spirit, is crucial. True reformation leads to a deeper understanding of both faith and works, righteousness, and holiness, ensuring that our exegesis and preaching remain God-honoring and biblically sound.

Thanks--I'll stay with the Reformers.

 

[Episkopos]

The Reformation, led by figures like Martin Luther, aimed to address and correct certain practices within the Roman Catholic Church that were seen as corrupt or misleading. However, it is crucial to understand the complexities and consequences of these reforms and their impact on Christian doctrine and practice.

Reformation’s Intent and Impact
Addressing Corrupt Practices:

Martin Luther and other reformers sought to address practices like the selling of indulgences, which they believed distorted the biblical message of salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."
Challenges to Doctrine:

While the Reformation clarified certain theological points, such as justification by faith, it also led to the rejection of some traditional doctrines and practices, which caused significant division within Christianity.
James 2:24 - "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (This verse shows the balance between faith and works, which Luther struggled with and famously called the book of James an "epistle of straw.")
The Consequences of Rejecting Scripture
Rejecting Parts of the Bible:

Luther’s difficulty with the book of James highlights the danger of discarding parts of Scripture that challenge our theological positions. The Bible should be accepted as a whole, and all parts should be harmonized.
2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
Maintaining Proper Doctrine:

Just based on this glaring deviation from the biblical narrative, Luther should have been rejected outright. He was no apostle or prophet sent from God. He was an opinionated racist. And his opinionating spread. The temporal powers took Luther on and protected him to gain wealth by claiming papal lands for themselves. So the whole thing is based on self-interest.

True reformation should refine and return the Church to biblical truth rather than discard essential doctrines. The early church, despite its issues, upheld many core truths about righteousness and holiness.
Matthew 5:17-19 - "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Theological Errors and Misunderstandings
Misunderstanding of Justification:

Amen

The reformers emphasized justification by faith, but this was sometimes misunderstood as negating the importance of righteous living and obedience to God’s commandments.
Romans 3:31 - "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."
Holiness and Righteousness:

Exactly. The idea of justification by faith ALONE only works for those who are called up into the higher standard of holiness...the call to be a saint. No one can do good works that elevate them into a holy walk before God....that is by a gift of grace through faith ALONE.

But our obedience is counted to us as righteousness as much as our faith. faith without works is dead. It's very easy to understand..without a theology degree (and even then they can't agree).... IF ...... BIG IF... it is simplified into lower walk righteousness and higher walk holiness. BOTH are encouraged in the bible. But because people don't KNOW the Lord or His ways...they will rail against any PROPER understanding and maintain the confusion.

Both the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church emphasize righteousness and holiness, even if their practices sometimes diverge. This focus should not be lost in the pursuit of doctrinal purity.
Hebrews 12:14 - "Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord."
Judgment and Accountability
Responsibility of Teachers:

Those who teach and lead within the Church carry a great responsibility to ensure they are correctly interpreting and teaching Scripture. The Reformation reminds us of the importance of returning to the Bible, but also warns of the dangers of going too far and creating new errors.
James 3:1 - "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment."
Lawlessness and False Assurance:

I see the reformation helping certain people but harming many more. Allowing the devil to fool people within the church means that these are NOT following the Shepherd but are going after another Jesus. Barabbas rather than Christ. And most people, given the choice between forgiveness and sacrifice will choose forgiveness every time. Likewise Jesus Barabbas is popular with the people. and few want to die along with Christ. However, if more people knew what the nature of the heavenly test was....perhaps...

Jesus warned that not everyone who calls Him 'Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of His Father. This underscores the need for true obedience and righteous living, not merely a verbal profession of faith.

Amen

Matthew 7:21-23 - "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"
Conclusion
The Reformation brought necessary corrections to certain practices within the Roman Catholic Church but also introduced theological challenges and divisions. A balanced approach to Scripture, accepting it as a whole and relying on the Holy Spirit, is crucial. True reformation leads to a deeper understanding of both faith and works, righteousness, and holiness, ensuring that our exegesis and preaching remain God-honoring and biblically sound.

Thanks--I'll stay with the Reformers.

Go right ahead. If everybody repented and became sacrificial in Christ then the bible would be wrong about how so many will be rejected. And when Jesus returns He would find a lot of faith.

So each of us has a say in the role we are willing to play, by the price we are willing to pay.

 

[Lizbeth]

What if we had the same likemindedness they had? There are indeed times and seasons, and I'd be perfectly happy to see that kind of a season, though I seriously wonder that we are headed for greater isolation, and persecution. We need to have that solid fellowship with other children of God, the true children. But maybe in that unity we may see a greater work of God.

As far as "greater works than these", I think that relates to Jesus dispensing the gift of health, deliverance, like that, while His disciples went on to dispense the gift of eternal life.

Much love!

Times of persecution and hardship usually seems to correlate with more grace and power in the church historically, from what I understand...? Think it also serves to help get rid of nonsense doctrines in the church and that in itself would be one reason for having more grace and power. For example, in times of persecution and hardship in the west I don't doubt we would be hearing much less about "prosperity teaching" and a lot more teaching/preaching about the cross and purpose of suffering etc. Already seem to be seeing little hints of that here and there. This is why God allows persecution and suffering......to purge and refine His people.

 

[Johann]

And you are welcome to the reformation ideas....as God Himself allows this...to test those who have no love for the truth...but only care for what is beneficial to them. God weeds all self-seekers out of His kingdom.

If you could only see the gospel apart from yourself...

What I seek to restore is the ancient paths...what has become overgrown with thistles and thorns. I speak of the ways of God (plural) and the WAY of God in Christ. No superficial reading of what I write will get a person to become dislodged from an already deviated understanding. But I point to a higher walk...in holiness...in a deeper stream that brings actual life.

Maybe you should reread Ephesians.
Ephesians Chapter 1
Spiritual Blessings in Christ:

Ephesians 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ."

Chosen and Predestined:
Ephesians 1:4-5: "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself."

Redemption and Forgiveness:
Ephesians 1:7: "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace."
Inheritance in Christ:

Ephesians 1:11: "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."
Ephesians Chapter 2

Made Alive in Christ:
Ephesians 2:4-5: "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)."
Seated in Heavenly Places:

Ephesians 2:6: "And raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus."
God’s Workmanship:

Ephesians 2:10: "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
Ephesians Chapter 3

Boldness and Access:
Ephesians 3:12: "In whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him."
Strengthened with Might:

Ephesians 3:16: "That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man."

Filled with the Fullness of God:
Ephesians 3:19: "To know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God."
Ephesians Chapter 4

Unity of the Spirit:
Ephesians 4:3-4: "Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling."

Maturity in Christ:
Ephesians 4:13: "Till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ."
Ephesians Chapter 5

Light in the Lord:
Ephesians 5:8: "For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light."
Filled with the Spirit:
Ephesians 5:18: "And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit."
Ephesians Chapter 6

Strength in the Lord:
Ephesians 6:10: "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might."
Armor of God:
Ephesians 6:11: "Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."
Summary

The book of Ephesians contains numerous promises for believers, including spiritual blessings, redemption, inheritance, being made alive and seated with Christ, being God’s workmanship, having boldness and access, being strengthened, filled with the fullness of God, maintaining unity, achieving maturity, walking as children of light, being filled with the Spirit, having strength in the Lord, and putting on the whole armor of God. Each promise contributes to a comprehensive understanding of the believer’s identity and blessings in Christ.

Replete with references to walk

To explore the concept of walking and abiding in the "highway of holiness" using Hebrew word studies, you and I should focus on key terms from the Hebrew Bible that relate to this theme. The phrase "highway of holiness" is notably derived from Isaiah 35:8, which states:

"And a highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called the way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for the redeemed; the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein" (Isaiah 35:8, KJV).

Here, the Hebrew words in this passage provide a rich tapestry of meaning that deepens our understanding of the "highway of holiness."

Hebrew Terms and Their Implications
מִסְּלָל (Mislal) - This term, translated as "highway" in Isaiah 35:8, connotes a well-trodden path or road. It implies a clear and defined route, distinct from less reliable or more chaotic pathways. In biblical literature, a highway often symbolizes a direct and accessible route to divine purpose or spiritual safety. It contrasts with the idea of wandering or erring paths.

דֶּרֶךְ (Derekh) - This Hebrew word means "way" or "path" and is used to signify not just physical paths but also ways of life or conduct. It indicates a moral or spiritual journey. In the context of holiness, "derekh" suggests a lifestyle or course of behavior aligned with divine principles and righteousness.

קֹדֶשׁ (Qodesh) - The term translated as "holiness" refers to something set apart, sacred, and consecrated. In the context of the "way of holiness," it denotes a path that is distinct from common or profane paths, dedicated to God. It implies purity, sanctity, and a separation from that which is unclean or sinful.

טָמֵא (Tamei) - This word means "unclean" or "defiled." The unclean are those who are ceremonially or morally impure, and the text asserts that they will not traverse the holy way. This highlights the idea that the path of holiness is reserved for those who maintain purity and righteousness.

גָּאַל (Ga'al) - The term means "redeemed" or "redeemer." In Isaiah 35:8, the highway is designated for the redeemed, reflecting the notion of salvation and deliverance. It implies that this holy way is accessible to those who have been spiritually delivered from sin.

הֹלֵךְ (Holekh) - Meaning "wayfarer" or "traveler," this word characterizes those who are journeying on the path. In the spiritual sense, it signifies believers who are actively walking in the way of holiness. The text reassures that even those who are perceived as foolish will not err if they adhere to this path, emphasizing the divine guidance provided on this route.

Theological Implications
In theological terms, walking in the "highway of holiness" involves a commitment to follow a path that is not only physically accessible but also spiritually fulfilling. It underscores the importance of purity and righteousness as prerequisites for walking with God. The "highway of holiness" serves as a metaphor for the spiritual journey toward sanctification and redemption, reflecting the divine intention for believers to live in accordance with God's holy standards.

Theological reflection on this passage encourages believers to view their spiritual lives as a journey along a divinely ordained path, marked by holiness and righteousness. It reassures that divine guidance ensures the way is clear and navigable, even for those who might feel inadequate in their understanding or abilities.

Who is the Way, the Truth and the Light?

You don't have to seek to do anything, you are not the Light and certainly not Jesus or the Holy Spirit--we have it in Scripture and with the indwelling Ruach guiding us on the paths wherein we should walk.

I don't need to heed to you or your voice or you preaching/teaching @Episkopos--no offense.

 

[Lizbeth]

I completely agree with this, God does what He pleases, and no one can ask Him, What do you think you are doing?


I have never seen or hear of in the modern day the multitudes healed as Jesus did in His day, though I do see those who call themselves apostles and claim to have powers and claim authority over the church.

I go back to what Paul said, "You earnestly covet the better gifts, but I will show you a more excellent way", and then taught about Christian Love, Charity, in the King James, I like that, I think that's more the point. What we do for others, without concern for ourselves. Determination to serve others in love, because we are committed inside to their wellbeing in every sense. Some chase these things, signs, wonders, looking for the affirmation for themself. Or to be a part of something big. I don't know, I conjecture.

My thinking, let God worry about any gifts or abilities or anything He may or may not want to gift me with, while I focus on keeping my mind straight and my actions right.

Much love!

Brother....I certainly agree. God's remnant is not the visible mega-conferences and televised on-air bluster and hype that we have so often seen. So many "claiming" titles and authority for themselves, when God's people are for the most part simply "found" doing what they do according as God has given to them, in the simplicity of Christ. Like Jesus who didn't come "claiming" the messiahship/kingship for Himself but was simply "found" in the form of a man and became a servant/minister going around doing good, doing the Father's will...in simplicity.

 

[Lizbeth]

My question on this is, how do you account, in this typology, for the fact that they did not take all the land? That they left the inhabitants alive among them, servants, but alive, contrary to God's command?

Much love!

Written for our admonition, as the apostle wrote. I believe it speaks to the importance of not compromising. I wonder if on one level "the land" speaks to taking ground as regards to ourselves personally, our earthen vessels.....doing battle with the enemy and taking ground in our own hearts and lives........and on another level it is a picture of doing "the Father's business" and taking ground back from the enemy for God in our service to Him. The need for uncompromising all-in whole-heartedness either way. I haven't tried to study it out up to now, but along the way I have heard some say that the specific battles in the Promised Land as referring to specific things to overcome.

 

[Johann]

Written for our admonition, as the apostle wrote. I believe it speaks to the importance of not compromising. I wonder if on one level "the land" speaks to taking ground as regards to ourselves personally, our earthen vessels.....doing battle with the enemy and taking ground in our own hearts and lives........and on another level it is a picture of doing "the Father's business" and taking ground back from the enemy for God in our service to Him. The need for uncompromising all-in whole-heartedness either way. I haven't tried to study it out up to now, but along the way I have heard some say that the specific battles in the Promised Land as referring to specific things to overcome.

Disobedience and Its Consequences
Initial Disobedience and the Wilderness Experience: The Israelites’ initial disobedience included their lack of faith and trust in God’s promises, particularly seen in their reaction to the report from the spies in Numbers 13-14. Their fear and refusal to enter the Promised Land led to God's judgment that they would wander in the wilderness for 40 years. This period serves as a time of discipline and preparation, reflecting how spiritual immaturity and disobedience can result in a necessary period of growth and refinement.

Incomplete Conquest and Partial Obedience: Even after entering the Promised Land, the Israelites’ failure to fully drive out the Canaanite inhabitants, as commanded by God, is a significant issue. This incomplete obedience led to persistent challenges and compromises, which are detailed in the subsequent books of Joshua and Judges. Their disobedience in this regard had long-term repercussions, affecting their spiritual and communal life.

Typological Reflection: In typological terms, the Israelites’ disobedience illustrates the human propensity to fall short of divine standards and the consequences of failing to fully embrace and apply God’s commands. The partial conquest represents the ongoing struggle in the believer's life to fully overcome sin and fully embrace sanctification. The persistent presence of the Canaanites among them reflects unresolved spiritual issues and the need for continued vigilance and obedience.

Lessons from Disobedience
Need for Complete Obedience: The narrative underscores the importance of complete obedience to God’s commands. The Israelites’ partial obedience led to ongoing problems and was a significant factor in their eventual decline. This serves as a reminder that partial adherence to divine principles can have profound and lasting consequences.

Divine Discipline and Grace: The wilderness period and the consequences of incomplete conquest highlight the role of divine discipline. Despite their failures, God’s grace continued to be evident. The narrative reveals that even in the face of disobedience, God’s promises remain steadfast and His plans are ultimately fulfilled, though not without the need for correction and refinement.

Ongoing Spiritual Warfare: The continued presence of the Canaanites symbolizes the ongoing nature of spiritual warfare. Just as the Israelites had to deal with the remaining inhabitants, believers are called to persist in their spiritual journey, addressing and overcoming the persistent aspects of their old nature and sin.

Encouragement for Perseverance: The narrative also serves as an encouragement for perseverance in faithfulness. The Israelites' journey, including their failures, demonstrates that spiritual growth is a process involving both successes and setbacks. It highlights the need for continual reliance on God and perseverance in the pursuit of holiness.

Theological Reflection
In theological reflection, the disobedience of the Israelites serves as a profound lesson on the nature of human fallibility and the importance of aligning one's life fully with God's will. It emphasizes the need for comprehensive and sincere adherence to divine commands and highlights the ongoing nature of spiritual growth and sanctification. The story encourages believers to learn from past failures and remain steadfast in their commitment to spiritual transformation.

Overall, the narrative of the Israelites’ disobedience and its consequences provides valuable insights into the spiritual journey, illustrating both the challenges and the hope for complete sanctification and alignment with God's will.

 

[amigo de christo]

Bible says "GREAT grace was upon them all" back then. We are not living in a time/place of GREAT grace, at this time in the west especially I would say. But that doesn't mean it isn't possible or that it is for us to draw a line around it. There are times and seasons.....I believe we might see great grace again and maybe even greater in the end to meet the need and to harvest souls at that time...maybe that is even when we will see "the greater works" that Jesus spoke about.

Tis always extremes with men . either you got the charasmetics who do naught but focus on signs and wonders
or you got those who go to the other extreme and try and say they no longer exist .
Take note that JESUS is the same . Until HE come back and we exist in the new heavens and new earth
everything the early church had for edifictation and the futherance of the gospel , so too has todays church .
As far as something we all need to be on gaurd against
IS there will be also false signs and wonders .
Many do get caught up with signs and wonders and get decieved by the means of
such miracles coming from false ones .
But this is why GOD warned them .
HE said even if a prophet or a dreamer of dreams do have a dream , a vision , etc
and even if IT do come to pass , and really this false one was about other gods and etc
NOT to heed such a one .
The LORD allowed it to TEST , to PROVE US , to see whether its really GOD we truly do love .
Its the focus sister .
The charasmetic realm, for example . LOOK at what they constantly focus on
and look at what they constantly twist . THEY focus on signs and wonders etc
and yet DOCTRINE , THEY really seem to care NOTHING about . NOT SOUND doctrine anyway .
JUST false visions that promise them bigger houses , or more money .
Or etc .
You see satan too has power and he and they who follow him too can perform miracles .
In fact its by those miracles he had power to do in the sight of the beast
that they GET decieved .
You see , by grace we must learn to rightly divide .
I dont have to preach a lie known as cessationism to be able to expose the charasmetics .
Yet some who teach cessationism , SURE they can expose the charastemics
but use doctrine to also try and prove how gifts , signs and wonders no longer exist .
AND YET THEY STILL DO exist .
WHY could JESUS not heal , etc , because of their UNBELIEF .
That in part has been the problem . I mean if one absolutely believes in cessationism
THEN why would they ever have or see such gifts .
We cannot throw out the TRUTH just cause the charasmetics bath in bad water .
Just cause they focus on gifts and follow falsehoods and seducing spirits
dont mean THERE IS STILL NOT THE ONE TRUE SPIRIT by which real gifts STILL DO EXIST .

 

[Lizbeth]

You're not Paul-and you have not seen the risen Messiah and you are not an Apostle and you are NOT sent to the Goyim to preach to them which sit in darkness!--do a word study on Apostle please. and if you seek after the mystic spectacular experiences--when even experiences must line up under the dokimazo of Scripture-you are just a wandering star, dipping here and there, selective one verse theology and really haven't read a word I have posted to you.

Many "followed" Jesus for the loaves and the fish--many unwilling to count the cost, to deny self, take up the cross. and keep on following the Master.
What is a "witness?"
You are going to have to look this up for yourself-I'm afraid.

@marks is spot on--yet you even question him, as you question me, as you question the Scriptures--no offense.

What "new revelations and additional experiences" do you seek that you don't have? Why was our brother Paul given a thorn in the flesh?

Some directives how to pray--

Wisdom and Knowledge
James 1:5 - "If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him."
Proverbs 2:3-6 - "Yes, if you cry out for discernment, and lift up your voice for understanding, if you seek her as silver, and search for her as for hidden treasures; then you will understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God. For the Lord gives wisdom; from His mouth come knowledge and understanding."

Colossians 1:9 - "For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding."
Guidance and Direction

Psalm 25:4-5 - "Show me Your ways, O Lord; teach me Your paths. Lead me in Your truth and teach me, for You are the God of my salvation; on You I wait all the day."

Proverbs 3:5-6 - "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths."
Strength and Endurance

Isaiah 40:31 - "But those who wait on the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint."

Philippians 4:13 - "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

Ephesians 3:16 - "That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man."
Peace and Comfort

Philippians 4:6-7 - "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."

John 14:27 - "Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."
Forgiveness and Repentance

1 John 1:9 - "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Psalm 51:10 - "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me."
Spiritual Growth and Fruitfulness

Ephesians 1:17-19 - "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power."

Colossians 1:10-12 - "That you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light."
Provision and Daily Needs
Matthew 6:11 - "Give us this day our daily bread."

Philippians 4:19 - "And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus."
Protection and Deliverance

Psalm 91:1-2 - "He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the Lord, 'He is my refuge and my fortress; my God, in Him I will trust.'"

2 Thessalonians 3:3 - "But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard you from the evil one."

Brother, the point is just that "Without the need for experiences and new revelations" is proved wrong by what is written about Paul's experience alone. Not everyone is an apostle, no, but everyone does have their own gifts according as the Spirit wills. "Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of lights" and Jesus "gave gifts to men". There is too much written about it for it to have only been for one generation of believers.

Paul in writing about the more excellent way of love........was not doing away with spiritual "gifts", but was putting them in their place, so to speak........reminding us not to make too much of them because love is much more important and will endure when our temporal lives are over and our "gifts" will end....whereas love needs to be the basis for everything and will endure into eternity. This is like Jesus admonishing His disciples not to rejoice in their gifts but to rejoice that their names are written in heaven.

 

[Johann]

Tis always extremes with men . either you got the charasmetics who do naught but focus on signs and wonders
or you got those who go to the other extreme and try and say they no longer exist .
Take note that JESUS is the same . Until HE come back and we exist in the new heavens and new earth
everything the early church had for edifictation and the futherance of the gospel , so too has todays church .
As far as something we all need to be on gaurd against
IS there will be also false signs and wonders .
Many do get caught up with signs and wonders and get decieved by the means of
such miracles coming from false ones .
But this is why GOD warned them .
HE said even if a prophet or a dreamer of dreams do have a dream , a vision , etc
and even if IT do come to pass , and really this false one was about other gods and etc
NOT to heed such a one .
The LORD allowed it to TEST , to PROVE US , to see whether its really GOD we truly do love .
Its the focus sister .
The charasmetic realm, for example . LOOK at what they constantly focus on
and look at what they constantly twist . THEY focus on signs and wonders etc
and yet DOCTRINE , THEY really seem to care NOTHING about . NOT SOUND doctrine anyway .
JUST false visions that promise them bigger houses , or more money .
Or etc .
You see satan too has power and he and they who follow him too can perform miracles .
In fact its by those miracles he had power to do in the sight of the beast
that they GET decieved .
You see , by grace we must learn to rightly divide .
I dont have to preach a lie known as cessationism to be able to expose the charasmetics .
Yet some who teach cessationism , SURE they can expose the charastemics
but use doctrine to also try and prove how gifts , signs and wonders no longer exist .
AND YET THEY STILL DO exist .
WHY could JESUS not heal , etc , because of their UNBELIEF .
That in part has been the problem . I mean if one absolutely believes in cessationism
THEN why would they ever have or see such gifts .
We cannot throw out the TRUTH just cause the charasmetics bath in bad water .
Just cause they focus on gifts and follow falsehoods and seducing spirits
dont mean THERE IS STILL NOT THE ONE TRUE SPIRIT by which real gifts STILL DO EXIST .

Ministerial gifts--not signs, wonders and miracles since there are no longer prophets and Apostles--you need to rightly divide the Scriptures Amigo.

Evangelism
Definition: Evangelists are those gifted to effectively communicate the gospel message and bring others to faith in Christ.
Biblical Reference: Ephesians 4:11; Acts 21:8; 2 Timothy 4:5.
Role: Evangelists focus on proclaiming the gospel, reaching out to non-believers, and fostering new converts.

4. Pastoring (or Shepherding)
Definition: Pastors are leaders who care for and nurture the spiritual well-being of the church community.
Biblical Reference: Ephesians 4:11; 1 Peter 5:2-3; John 21:16.
Role: Pastors provide spiritual guidance, counseling, and pastoral care to the members of their congregation.

5. Teaching
Definition: Teachers are those gifted to explain and instruct others in the doctrines and principles of the Christian faith.
Biblical Reference: Ephesians 4:11; 1 Corinthians 12:28; James 3:1.
Role: Teachers ensure that the congregation is grounded in sound doctrine and understands the application of biblical truths in daily life.

6. Service (or Ministry)
Definition: This gift involves practical service and support to meet the needs of others within the church.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:7; 1 Peter 4:10.
Role: Those with the gift of service help in various practical aspects of church life, from administrative tasks to hands-on assistance.

7. Exhortation
Definition: Exhorters are gifted to encourage, motivate, and uplift others in their faith.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:8; Acts 14:22.
Role: Exhorters provide comfort, motivation, and encouragement, helping others to remain steadfast in their spiritual journey.

8. Leadership (or Administration)
Definition: Leaders are those who guide and manage the activities and organization of the church.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:8; 1 Corinthians 12:28.
Role: Leaders provide direction, make decisions, and coordinate efforts to achieve the church’s goals and objectives.

9. Giving
Definition: Those with the gift of giving are particularly generous and willing to share their resources for the benefit of others and the advancement of God’s work.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:8; 2 Corinthians 8:2-3.
Role: The gift of giving involves not just financial contributions but also a spirit of generosity and support for the needs of the church and its mission.

10. Mercy
Definition: Individuals with the gift of mercy have a special capacity for compassion and empathy towards those who are suffering or in need.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:8; Matthew 5:7.
Role: Those with the gift of mercy offer comfort, support, and practical help to those experiencing hardship, demonstrating Christ’s love and compassion.
Conclusion
These ministerial gifts are essential for the functioning and growth of the church. They complement the more dramatic gifts of signs, wonders, and miracles by focusing on the day-to-day needs of the church community, fostering spiritual maturity, and facilitating the mission of the church. Each gift plays a specific role in building up the body of Christ, ensuring that the church operates effectively and in alignment with God’s purposes.

 

[amigo de christo]

I'll read the Reformers and their teachings any day than listening to you and your modern gospel @Episkopos.

yea rather my friend let us stay read in the bible .
I am seeing a problem amongst a lot of these modern day reformers .
Cessationism is actually hurting your own cause .
Because you say a serious truth when you DO say we need to be in the bible
and that doctrine is dire important .
and yet here comes cessationism . Its like me saying GET in the bible everyone
its dire important and yet i teach something contrary TO IT myself .
Cessationism came from men , NOT GOD my friend .
Now i know there are seducing spirits that can perform signs and wonders
I know the charasemtics have turned signs and wonders themselves into a gospel , a minstiry all of its own .
AND that they do not teach biblical doctrine .
I expose them a lot my friend . But i also know cessationism is not right .
Ask yourself something my friend .
DO you see me as one who always preaches about signs and wonders
OR have you seen me simply saying GET INTO THE BIBLES .
I put the focus ON BIBLICAL doctrine . Always have my friend .
In fact when you, or if you went back and read every post i ever wrote on this site
or any other site , YOU gonna see i have hollered non stop about the dire importance of reading scrips
and i have often exposed the false signs and wonders camp .
But cessationism is truly something men taught .
It was never written in those days i will pour out my spirit
and they will speak in new tongues , have gifts , do signs and wonders
BUT once they get all the letters together i am gonna cease the gifts .
WHEN JESUS led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men
That didnt change just cause we now have the bible and letters .
In fact the bible , the lettters prove cessationism to be false .
THE DAY the gifts cease , IS the DAY the church is finally home with the LORD .
cause once we are in the new heavens , new world , new earth
With new bodies , THERE AINT gonna be a need to evangelize to the lost
cause the lost WONT BE THERE . ITS all gonna end . IT will cease after
the destruction of the old world , old heavens
and we are now in the new earth , new heavens .
FOR NOW , in part we are connected , but still we dwell in a wicked world
and still we need the supply of the SPIRIT and it giveth differing gifts to the body
for the purpose of BUILDING up and EDIFICATION of the body and for the purpose of witnessing to the lost .

 

[amigo de christo]

Ministerial gifts--not signs, wonders and miracles since there are no longer prophets and Apostles--you need to rightly divide the Scriptures Amigo.

Evangelism
Definition: Evangelists are those gifted to effectively communicate the gospel message and bring others to faith in Christ.
Biblical Reference: Ephesians 4:11; Acts 21:8; 2 Timothy 4:5.
Role: Evangelists focus on proclaiming the gospel, reaching out to non-believers, and fostering new converts.

4. Pastoring (or Shepherding)
Definition: Pastors are leaders who care for and nurture the spiritual well-being of the church community.
Biblical Reference: Ephesians 4:11; 1 Peter 5:2-3; John 21:16.
Role: Pastors provide spiritual guidance, counseling, and pastoral care to the members of their congregation.

5. Teaching
Definition: Teachers are those gifted to explain and instruct others in the doctrines and principles of the Christian faith.
Biblical Reference: Ephesians 4:11; 1 Corinthians 12:28; James 3:1.
Role: Teachers ensure that the congregation is grounded in sound doctrine and understands the application of biblical truths in daily life.

6. Service (or Ministry)
Definition: This gift involves practical service and support to meet the needs of others within the church.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:7; 1 Peter 4:10.
Role: Those with the gift of service help in various practical aspects of church life, from administrative tasks to hands-on assistance.

7. Exhortation
Definition: Exhorters are gifted to encourage, motivate, and uplift others in their faith.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:8; Acts 14:22.
Role: Exhorters provide comfort, motivation, and encouragement, helping others to remain steadfast in their spiritual journey.

8. Leadership (or Administration)
Definition: Leaders are those who guide and manage the activities and organization of the church.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:8; 1 Corinthians 12:28.
Role: Leaders provide direction, make decisions, and coordinate efforts to achieve the church’s goals and objectives.

9. Giving
Definition: Those with the gift of giving are particularly generous and willing to share their resources for the benefit of others and the advancement of God’s work.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:8; 2 Corinthians 8:2-3.
Role: The gift of giving involves not just financial contributions but also a spirit of generosity and support for the needs of the church and its mission.

10. Mercy
Definition: Individuals with the gift of mercy have a special capacity for compassion and empathy towards those who are suffering or in need.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:8; Matthew 5:7.
Role: Those with the gift of mercy offer comfort, support, and practical help to those experiencing hardship, demonstrating Christ’s love and compassion.
Conclusion
These ministerial gifts are essential for the functioning and growth of the church. They complement the more dramatic gifts of signs, wonders, and miracles by focusing on the day-to-day needs of the church community, fostering spiritual maturity, and facilitating the mission of the church. Each gift plays a specific role in building up the body of Christ, ensuring that the church operates effectively and in alignment with God’s purposes.

Its cessationsist that twisted the scrips . Just because in large most are following a spirit of divination
and seducing spirits that can perform signs and wonders
DONT MEAN the ONE TRUE HOLY SPIRIT that gave such gifts unto men , STILL DONT DO SO
for the purpose of edification and the furtherance of the gospel .

 

[Lizbeth]

Ministerial gifts--not signs, wonders and miracles since there are no longer prophets and Apostles--you need to rightly divide the Scriptures Amigo.

Evangelism
Definition: Evangelists are those gifted to effectively communicate the gospel message and bring others to faith in Christ.
Biblical Reference: Ephesians 4:11; Acts 21:8; 2 Timothy 4:5.
Role: Evangelists focus on proclaiming the gospel, reaching out to non-believers, and fostering new converts.

4. Pastoring (or Shepherding)
Definition: Pastors are leaders who care for and nurture the spiritual well-being of the church community.
Biblical Reference: Ephesians 4:11; 1 Peter 5:2-3; John 21:16.
Role: Pastors provide spiritual guidance, counseling, and pastoral care to the members of their congregation.

5. Teaching
Definition: Teachers are those gifted to explain and instruct others in the doctrines and principles of the Christian faith.
Biblical Reference: Ephesians 4:11; 1 Corinthians 12:28; James 3:1.
Role: Teachers ensure that the congregation is grounded in sound doctrine and understands the application of biblical truths in daily life.

6. Service (or Ministry)
Definition: This gift involves practical service and support to meet the needs of others within the church.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:7; 1 Peter 4:10.
Role: Those with the gift of service help in various practical aspects of church life, from administrative tasks to hands-on assistance.

7. Exhortation
Definition: Exhorters are gifted to encourage, motivate, and uplift others in their faith.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:8; Acts 14:22.
Role: Exhorters provide comfort, motivation, and encouragement, helping others to remain steadfast in their spiritual journey.

8. Leadership (or Administration)
Definition: Leaders are those who guide and manage the activities and organization of the church.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:8; 1 Corinthians 12:28.
Role: Leaders provide direction, make decisions, and coordinate efforts to achieve the church’s goals and objectives.

9. Giving
Definition: Those with the gift of giving are particularly generous and willing to share their resources for the benefit of others and the advancement of God’s work.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:8; 2 Corinthians 8:2-3.
Role: The gift of giving involves not just financial contributions but also a spirit of generosity and support for the needs of the church and its mission.

10. Mercy
Definition: Individuals with the gift of mercy have a special capacity for compassion and empathy towards those who are suffering or in need.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:8; Matthew 5:7.
Role: Those with the gift of mercy offer comfort, support, and practical help to those experiencing hardship, demonstrating Christ’s love and compassion.
Conclusion
These ministerial gifts are essential for the functioning and growth of the church. They complement the more dramatic gifts of signs, wonders, and miracles by focusing on the day-to-day needs of the church community, fostering spiritual maturity, and facilitating the mission of the church. Each gift plays a specific role in building up the body of Christ, ensuring that the church operates effectively and in alignment with God’s purposes.

Reading carefully we will see that those five gifts are not separate from all other gifts given to all members of the Body of Christ. There is to be NO SCHISM in the Body. "Five-fold" is so named by the carnal mind of men...it is not written in scripture.

(Fancy names of extra-biblical terminology is almost always a red flag that something is off the mark.)

 

[amigo de christo]

Ministerial gifts--not signs, wonders and miracles since there are no longer prophets and Apostles--you need to rightly divide the Scriptures Amigo.

Evangelism
Definition: Evangelists are those gifted to effectively communicate the gospel message and bring others to faith in Christ.
Biblical Reference: Ephesians 4:11; Acts 21:8; 2 Timothy 4:5.
Role: Evangelists focus on proclaiming the gospel, reaching out to non-believers, and fostering new converts.

4. Pastoring (or Shepherding)
Definition: Pastors are leaders who care for and nurture the spiritual well-being of the church community.
Biblical Reference: Ephesians 4:11; 1 Peter 5:2-3; John 21:16.
Role: Pastors provide spiritual guidance, counseling, and pastoral care to the members of their congregation.

5. Teaching
Definition: Teachers are those gifted to explain and instruct others in the doctrines and principles of the Christian faith.
Biblical Reference: Ephesians 4:11; 1 Corinthians 12:28; James 3:1.
Role: Teachers ensure that the congregation is grounded in sound doctrine and understands the application of biblical truths in daily life.

6. Service (or Ministry)
Definition: This gift involves practical service and support to meet the needs of others within the church.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:7; 1 Peter 4:10.
Role: Those with the gift of service help in various practical aspects of church life, from administrative tasks to hands-on assistance.

7. Exhortation
Definition: Exhorters are gifted to encourage, motivate, and uplift others in their faith.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:8; Acts 14:22.
Role: Exhorters provide comfort, motivation, and encouragement, helping others to remain steadfast in their spiritual journey.

8. Leadership (or Administration)
Definition: Leaders are those who guide and manage the activities and organization of the church.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:8; 1 Corinthians 12:28.
Role: Leaders provide direction, make decisions, and coordinate efforts to achieve the church’s goals and objectives.

9. Giving
Definition: Those with the gift of giving are particularly generous and willing to share their resources for the benefit of others and the advancement of God’s work.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:8; 2 Corinthians 8:2-3.
Role: The gift of giving involves not just financial contributions but also a spirit of generosity and support for the needs of the church and its mission.

10. Mercy
Definition: Individuals with the gift of mercy have a special capacity for compassion and empathy towards those who are suffering or in need.
Biblical Reference: Romans 12:8; Matthew 5:7.
Role: Those with the gift of mercy offer comfort, support, and practical help to those experiencing hardship, demonstrating Christ’s love and compassion.
Conclusion
These ministerial gifts are essential for the functioning and growth of the church. They complement the more dramatic gifts of signs, wonders, and miracles by focusing on the day-to-day needs of the church community, fostering spiritual maturity, and facilitating the mission of the church. Each gift plays a specific role in building up the body of Christ, ensuring that the church operates effectively and in alignment with God’s purposes.

The KEY is ye shall know them by their doctrine , by their fruits .
What do they focus on , WHO do they preach , what doctrine do they teach
do they justify sin , do they teach contrary to original biblical doctrine .
THAT is how you know .
For example , feel free to ask me what person in todays charasmetics or most other places
HAVE You seen me POINT TOO . and then ask yourself WHO have you seen ME point too non stop
and what BOOK have you seen me point too non stop .
The problem is most folks no longer endure or heed sound doctrine .
Its almost impossible to find them in the mainstream churches .
But i am telling us , still there are gifts and etc .
But there is a far far larger move that too has signs and wonders , but is working
VERY CONTRARY TO GOD . that group I REFUSE TO HEED ONE WORD from that camp.
But beware them too my friend . They are very heavy about talking about love
but upon examination of their love , I SURE DONT SEEM to see a love for GOD or TRUTH
within it . Just a love meant to gather , it speaks of doing good works
BUT IT SURE dont love TRUTH . It walks contrary to doctrine . SO be on guard for it too my friend .
WE must all be on gaurd . There is a deluision that cometh of the inclusion
and i am telling us all it has infiltrated every site i have been on
every realm with the demoniations of even churches . and most seem BLIND as a bat too its
highly deceptive performances . All they hear is the word love and seem to think OH they must follow GOD .
NO they DONT . their love is of the world , NOT GOD .
Any love that focuses only on doing certain good works
and yet OMITS and pure and holy doctrine , the gospel itself
AINT COMING from GOD . but its very sneaky , specially how it first enters into a place .

 

[Johann]

Brother, the point is just that "Without the need for experiences and new revelations" is proved wrong by what is written about Paul's experience alone. Not everyone is an apostle, no, but everyone does have their own gifts according as the Spirit wills. "Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of lights" and Jesus "gave gifts to men". There is too much written about it for it to have only been for one generation of believers.

I think we should open a thread on the "gifts" Lizbeth.

THERE ARE 21 SPIRITUAL GIFTS LISTED IN 5 KEY PASSAGES
[Romans 12:6-8; 1 Corinthians 12:9-28; Ephesians 4:11; 1 Peter 4:9-11, Exodus 31:1-6]
1. Gift of prophesying (Rom. 12:6; 1 Cor. 12:10; 1 Cor. 12:28; 1 Cor. 14:1; 1 Cor. 14:29-33,39; Eph. 4:11; Acts
2:17) προφητεία prophēteia. (to speak forth) God’s Word. To proclaim openly God’s Word. God’s
revelation came directly to men like Peter and Paul. In the OT the prophet was primarily a foreteller whose
task was to proclaim future events. In the NT the foretelling of future events occurs chiefly in Revelation.
Prophesy is also defined as an anointed proclamation of God through an individual to encourage, exhort or
to comfort.

2. Gift of faith (Romans 12:6; 1 Cor. 12:9) πίστις pistis. This is the gift of trusting God when there seems to
be no natural basis for that trust. This person will trust God to work His wonder working power in people’s
lives and in the life of Christ’s church. See Hebrews 11 for some great examples of the gift of faith.

3. Gift of serving or helps (Romans 12:7; 1 Cor. 12:28; 1 Peter 4:11) ἀντίληψις antilēpsis. The joy of helping
others or serving others meeting practical or material needs.

4. Gift of teaching (Romans 12:7; 1 Cor. 12:28; Ephesians 4:11) διδάσκαλος Didaskalos. This gift of
instructing believers in the Word of God. It is the act of communicating biblical truth in a manner that
enables others to learn and contributes to the spiritual health of the church.

5. Gift of encouraging or exhortation (Romans 12:8: Acts 20:17-35) παράκλησις paraklēsis. Barnabas is
called the son of encouragement and had this spiritual gift. It is the coming along side of to encourage, to
comfort admonish, to challenge and to comfort people to live lives worthy of God. See 1 Thess 2:11-12.

6. Gift of giving (Romans 12:8) μεταδίδωμι metadidōmi. To manage one’s resources well (income, time,
energy, skills, and gifts) in such a way that one is able to cheerfully and generously give to further God’s
kingdom and build up the Church of Jesus Christ.

7. Gift of leadership (Romans 12:8; 1 Tim 3:4, 12; 1 Tim 5:8,17) προι ̈́́στημι proistēmi. Personal leading of
and care of others, serving as overseers of the flock. See also 1 Peter 5:1-2—Hebrews 13:17.

8. Gift of showing mercy (Romans 12:8) ἐλεέω eleeō This is the spiritual gift of compassion, divine love in
action. It reflects an empathy and sensitivity to the pains and hurts of others and the capacity to
participate in addressing these pains and hurts.

9. Gift of wisdom (1 Cor. 12:8) σοφία sophia. This is the gift of the Spirit to produce God- given solutions to
problems and to apply knowledge of God’s Word in the Christian life. It’s more than the wisdom which
comes through experience. It is the supernatural giving of God’s wisdom for assisting others in following
God’s will to the building up and strengthening of the Body of Christ.

10. Gift of knowledge (1 Cor. 12:8; Acts 5:3; 1 Cor. 2:11-13) γνῶσις gnōsis. This is the gift of the Spirit to
ascertain things from the past, present, and the future apart from personal study. It is seen in the Apostle
Peter who had a message of knowledge from God about Ananias and Sapphira in their lying to the Holy
Spirit in holding back a part of the money from their land sale.

11. Gift of healing (1 Cor. 12:9; 1 Cor. 12:28) ἴαμα iama. This is the gift of being used by the Lord Jesus to lay
hands upon the sick and to see them healed in the name of Jesus. Alan Redpath says it is the ability to
command disease to be removed from a human body in the name of the Lord Jesus.

12. Gift of miraculous powers (1 Cor. 12:10; 1 Cor. 12:28) δύναμις dunamis. This is the gift exercised by the
Apostle Paul and Peter in raising the dead, opening the eyes of the blind, being bitten by poisonous snakes
and not dying, of the blinding of Elymas in Acts 13:8-12 as a judgment of God through the apostle and of
other miraculous works of God in the name of Jesus. Someone with this gift of the Spirit is used of God to
perform miracles of God.

13. Gift of distinguishing or discernment of spirits (1 Cor. 12:10) διάκρισις diakrisis. This is the gift of the
Spirit to be able to discern whether a spirit is from the devil or is of God and to discern whether what is
being said is true or not and whether a person is a false prophet or a prophet of God. See also 1 John 4:1.

14. Gift of speaking in different kinds of tongues (1 Cor. 12:10; 12:28; 14:26-28,39) γένος genos γλῶσσα
glōssa. This is the gift of the Holy Spirit to declare the praises of God in an unknown language as the Spirit
gives you utterance to do so.

15. Gift of interpretation of tongues (1 Cor. 12:10) ἑρμηνεία hermēneia γλῶσσα glōssa. This is the gift of
the Holy Spirit to be able to interpret a God-given message in tongues.

16. Gift of apostleship (1 Cor. 12:28; Ephesians 4:11; Rev 21:14) ἀπόστολος apostolos. This is the spiritual
gift given to the apostles of the 1st century to reach the world for Christ as missionaries planting churches
and adapting to other cultures and lifestyles in order to win them to Christ (1 Cor. 9:19-22). Revelation
21:14 fixes the number of apostles at 12 and so most evangelicals believe that this gift has ceased after the
1
st century. Others separate the gift from the office and says this is the gift of missionary service that God
gives to some today to go into all the world and to plant new churches and to like Paul establish new
churches and show deep concern with spiritual development of the new believers 1 Thess 2:1-12 1 Cor.
4:14-17, and show responsibility for doctrinal understanding and purity in the church Acts 20:18-32; 1 Tim
2:4.

17. Gift of administration (1 Cor. 12:28; Proverbs 1:5; Prov. 24:6; Acts 27:11 Rev. 18:17) κυβέρνησις
kubernēsis. This gift of the Spirit means helmsmen or governor. It is the role in the church of the one who
manages the ministry of the church (using the language of industry and business) or in using the language
of the schools or hospitals, the one who administrates. In Exodus 18 Jethro serves Moses as a
Management consultant asking him to appoint others to assist him in leading the nation of Israel.

18. Gift of evangelism (Ephesians 4:11; Acts 21:8; 2 Tim 4:5, Acts 8 Philipp) εὐαγγελιστής euaggelistēs. This is
the spiritual gift given to some to preach the gospel in such a way that lives are given over to the Lord in a
repentance which leads to life eternal. Philip in Acts 8 is an example of this gift in the 1st century and Billy
Graham is an example in modern day.

19. Gift of pastoring or shepherding (Ephesians 4:11) ποιμήν poimēn. This is the gift and the calling that God
gives to some to feed and care for and to guard the flock of God as an under-shepherd of the Chief
Shepherd, Jesus Christ. Timothy was a 1st century example of this gift in action.

20. Gift of hospitality (1 Peter 4:9) φιλόξενος philoxenos. This is the spiritual gift of being able to extend
welcoming care and love in hospitality to one’s friends, guests and strangers with the love of Christ.

21. Gift of Craftsmanship (Exodus 31:1-6) This is the gift of the Holy Spirit given by God to some to be able to
create all kinds of artistic designs for work in stone, and wood, and metals and all kinds of crafts with
wisdom and skill for the glory of God. Bezalel and Oholiab were some gifted by the Holy Spirit with wisdom
and understanding to create furnishings for the tabernacle in the days of Moses and God gifts people
today with this same gift of the Holy Spirit.
Five questions to assist you in discerning your spiritual gift(s):
1) Where has God been blessing others through your ministry of service?
No branch bears fruit by itself. It must remain in the vine (John 15). We must remain in Christ Jesus. A
living union with Christ is absolutely essential for bearing spiritual fruit for the Lord. But, when we abide in
Christ and use those spiritual gifts that He has given to us in concert with the rest of the church body,
together we will bear much fruit that will last.
2) How have others encouraged you?
Sometimes we are the last to realize that God has entrusted to us a spiritual gift(s) because we just quietly
use those gifts to bless others in the body, to build them up in Christ. Listen to what others have say to you
as another indicator of what your Spiritual gifts may be.
3) Who has the Holy Spirit given you a burden for and how does He want to use you to reach and serve
them?
God gives each of His Sons and Daughters of the kingdom a burden or passion for ministry. How has the
Holy Spirit spoken to you and how does He want to reach others through you? If you don’t yet have a
burden, ask the Lord to break your heart with the things that break His. Listen to what the Holy Spirit tells
you directly.
4) Do you get really angry when others neglect to serve in a certain way?
When we get frustrated with others in the Body who aren’t stepping up and helping us to do the “real”
work of the ministry, it often times is more of a window into our own gift cluster and passions than it is a
reflection of what the other person is or is not doing to serve.

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