Justified by Works
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NASB "but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense"
NKJV, Peshitta "but it is evil for the man who eats with offense"
NRSV "but it is wrong for you to make others fall by what you eat"
TEV "but it is wrong to eat anything that will cause someone else to fall into sin"
NJB "but it becomes evil if by eating it you make somebody else fall away"
REB "but it is wrong to eat if by eating you cause another to stumble"
This verse is the central truth of this Romans (cf. 1 Cor. 10:25-26; Titus 1:15).
This is referring to meat offered to an idol in a pagan temple (cf. 1 Corinthians 8-10). The meat is not good or evil, but if a weak believer, who thinks it is inappropriate, sees another Christian eating it and also eats, that which is morally neutral becomes evil because it violates his/her personal consciousness of the will of God (cf. Rom. 14:23).
Most English translations relate this clause to "the stronger brother" in that by their eating, a weaker believer is influenced. The Catholic translation of New American Bible gives the other option and relates the clause to "the weaker brother," "but it is wrong for a man to eat when the food offends his conscience." In context the first option seems best but the ambiguity may be purposeful and refer to both, as does Rom. 14:22-23.
14:21 This is a word to "the strong brothers." This is the only basis in the Bible for the theological concept of "total abstinence" from certain foods or drinks. Strong Christians must limit their freedom for their Christian brothers/sisters and sincere searchers (lost people). Much of this self-limiting is cultural, regional and/or denominational.
These are two AORIST ACTIVE INFINITIVES with the NEGATIVE PARTICLE which implied "never start an act." Some have interpreted these AORISTS as applying only to certain occasions (cf. 1 Corinthians 8-10). Obviously eating and drinking cannot be prohibited.
14:22
NASB "The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God.
Happy is he who does not condemen himself in what he approves"
NKJV "Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he
who does not condemn himself in what he approves"
NRSV "The faith that you have, have as your own conviction before God.
blessed are those who have no reason to condemn themselves
because of what they approve"
TEV "Keep what you believe about this matter, then, between yourself and God.
Happy are those who do not feel guilty when they
do something they judge is right!"
NJB "Hold on to your own belief, as between yourself and God—and
consider the man fortunate who can make his decision
without going against his conscience."
This is the reaffirmation that believers must live in light of their own Holy Spirit-led, Bible-informed consciences (cf. Rom. 14:5). They must walk in the light they have; but, not so as to abuse a fellow believers' faith. Verse 22 relates to the "stronger brother," while verse 23 relates to the "weaker brother."
Verse 22 starts with a manuscript variation. It can be a question (NKJV) or a statement (NASB, NRSV, TEV, and JB). See Bruce M. Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, pp. 532-533. The UBS4 committee could not decide which form was original.
"approves" See SPECIAL TOPIC: GREEK TERMS FOR TESTING, #1
14:23 "But he who doubts" This is a PRESENT MIDDLE PARTICIPLE. This refers to the over-scrupulous Christian of Rom. 14:3.
"is condemned This is a PERFECT PASSIVE INDICATIVE from kata + krinō, meaning
"placed in a guilty light by contrast" (cf. Harold K. Moulton, The analytical Greek Lexicon Revised, p. 216)
"not condemnation, but the punishment following sentence" (cf. Rom. 5:16,18; 8:1 [cf. Moulton and Milligan, The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, p. 328])
Here, it refers to the violation of one's conscience and the resulting pain associated with the convicting of the Holy Spirit, not to one's salvation.
How many times ? "Not to one's salvation!"
ROMANS 14
www.freebiblecommentary.org
122. THE SYNONYMOUS WORDS
FOR
"JUDGE", "CONDEMN", ETC.
1. krino = to judge, used of a legal or other decision; generally translated "judge", sometimes "determine", "conclude", &c.
2. anakrino , No. 1 with ana (Ap. 104. i) prefixed = to examine; translated, with a negative, "ask no question" in 1Co_10:25; 1Co_10:27.
3. apokrinomai . Middle of No. 1 with apo (Ap. 104. .iv) prefixed = to give forth a decision for oneself; hence to answer. According to Hebrew idiom, which prevails in both Testaments, it is often combined with the word "said" in the expression "answered and said", and receives it meaning from the context. See note on Deu_1:41. It thus frequently occurs when no question had been asked : e.g. in Mat_11:25, "answered and said" means "prayed and said"; Mat_22:1, "taught"; in Mar_9:5, "exclaimed"; Mar_12:35, "asked"; Luk_13:14, "burst forth"; Joh_1:49, "confessed"; Joh_5:19, "declared". The word occurs so frequently (more than 240 times), always translated "answer", that it has not been deemed necessary to call attention to it in the notes.
4. diakrino . No. 1 with dia (Ap. 104. v) prefixed = to discriminate, make a difference; hence to doubt. It is translated "stagger at" in Rom_4:20.
5. enkrino = No. 1 with en (Ap. 104. ix) prefixed = to adjudge to a particular position. Occurs only in 2Co_10:12, translated "make of the number".
6. epikrino . No. 1 with epi (Ap. 104. ix) prefixed = to pronounce sentence upon. Occurs only in Luk_23:24.
7. katakrino . No. 1 with kata (Ap. 104. x) prefixed = to give sentence against, to condemn. Occurs 19 times, translated "condemn", except in Mar_16:16 and Rom_14:23.
8. sunkrino . No. 1 with sun (Ap. 104. xvi) prefixed = to put together, in order to judge, hence to compare. Occurs only in 1Co_2:13. 2Co_10:12.
9. hupokrinomai . Middle of No. 1 with (Ap. 104. xviii) prefixed = to answer (like No. 3), and so to act on the stage; hence to feign. Occurs only in Luk_20:20. The nouns hupokrisis and hupokrites , which we have anglicized into "hypocrisy" and "hypocrite", are always so translated, save in Gal_2:13, and Jas_5:12.
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I agree Romans 14 can encompass the issue in 1 Co 8, but Romans 14 is not 1 Co 8 (Ro 14 encompasses generalities(21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything to cause your brother to stumble."), 1 Co 8 is a specific example--and the condemnation (because he "sins against Christ", according to 1 Co 8) on the one who eats with faith in a way that is destructive to his brother (and he ought to have kept his faith between himself and God) is a different condemnation than the condemnation on the one who eats without faith.
You're not citing the text, which says he is "condemned", you're citing a commentary, and the commentator has a particular theological view he is defending by commenting the way he does.
Think about your argument : "the believer can live in sin (by walking contrary to his beliefs, contrary to the law of his mind--already, this state of affairs had been the description of being enslaved, killed, by sin (Ro 7:8-24)), and his sinning will not affect his justification, nor result in his death".
Sorry, Romans 2:6-16 and 8:12,13 prevent me from reading it as you are preferring to read it.
Your choice of Scripture references is simply amazing--Let's see.
Food Offered to Idols
1Co 8:1 Concerning Food Sacrificed to Idols
¶ Now concerning food sacrificed to idols, we know that “we all have knowledge.” [Considered by many interpreters to be a slogan used by the Corinthians to justify their behavior] Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.
1Co 8:2 If anyone thinks he knows anything, he has not yet known as it is necessary to know.
1Co 8:3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by him.
1Co 8:4 ¶ Therefore, concerning the eating of food sacrificed to idols, we know that “an idol is nothing in the world” and that “there is no God except one.” [Considered by many interpreters to be slogans used by the Corinthians to justify their behavior]
1Co 8:5 For even if after all there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many gods and many lords,
1Co 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father,
from whom are all things , and we are for him,
and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ,
through whom are all things , and we are through him.
1Co 8:7 ¶ But this knowledge is not in everyone. But some, being accustomed until now to the idol, eat this food as food sacrificed to idols, and their conscience, because it [*Here “because ” is supplied as a component of the participle (“is”) which is understood as causal] is weak, is defiled.
1Co 8:8 But food does not bring us close to God. For neither if we eat do we have more, nor if we do not eat do we lack. [Some manuscripts omit “For” and have “Neither if we do not eat do we lack, nor if we do eat do we have more”]
1Co 8:9 But watch out lest somehow this right of yours becomes a cause for stumbling to the weak.
1Co 8:10 For if someone should see you who has knowledge reclining for a meal in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, because it [*Here “because ” is supplied as a component of the participle (“is”) which is understood as causal] is weak, be strengthened so that he eats the food sacrificed to idols?
1Co 8:11 For the one who is weak—the brother for whom Christ died—is destroyed by your knowledge.
1Co 8:12 Now if you [*Here “if ” is supplied as a component of the participle (“sin”) which is understood as conditional] sin in this way against the brothers and wound their conscience, which is weak, you sin against Christ.
Who is sinning against Christ here?
Ye sin against Christ - Because:
(1) Christ has commanded you to love them, and seek their good, and not to lead them into sin, and,
(2) Because they are so intimately united to Christ (see the notes at Joh_15:1 ff) that to offend them is to offend him; to injure the members is to injure the head; to destroy their souls is to pain his heart and to injure his cause; see the note at Mat_10:40; compare Luk_10:16.
You sin against Christ -- Christ identifies Himself with His people, including His weakest brethren. He informed Saul on the Damascus road that persecution of the saints was indeed persecution of Himself (Act_9:5; cf. Mat_25:40).
Christ has commanded you to love them, and seek their good, and not to lead them into sin.
J.
Both the brother who eats without faith and the brother who caused him to eat without faith have sinned--and, as I said, they're both condemned, but the condemnation on the one is for a different reason than the condemnation on the other.
Yep.
However, how is this supposed to be relevant to your claim that I am abusing Ro 14:23?
I simply can't believe your line of reasoning.
128. THE SYNONYMOUS WORDS
USED FOR
"SIN", "WICKEDNESS",
"EVIL", "UNGODLINESS",
"DISOBEDIENCE",
"TRANSGRESSION", ETC.
I. SIN i. The Verb. hamartano = to miss the mark or aim; then, to miss or wander from the right path; to go, or do, wrong. ii. The Noun.
1. hamartia = a failing to hit the mark; aberration from prescribed law (connected with and resulting from the above). In N.T. always in a moral sense = a sin, whether by omission or commission, in thought, word, or deed. Also used in connection with the sin-offering (Heb_10:6; Heb_10:8; Heb_10:18; Heb_13:11, as in Psa_40:6, cp. Lev_5:8). 2. hamartema = the actual sin. The evil principle in action; the sinful act or deed. 3. paraptoma = a falling aside, when one should have stood upright. Hence (morally) a fall, a falling aside from truth and equity; a fault, or trespass. In Rom_5:12, No. 1 entered the world. The disobedience of Adam ( vv . 15, 17, 18) was No. 3, and the law entered that No. 3 which before was error, might become criminal in the knowledge of the sinner. After this, where No. 1 abounded, grace did much more abound.
II. WICKEDNESS 1. poneria = depravity; iniquity, the wicked acting of the evil nature. See No. III. 1 below. 2. kakia = depravity, the vicious disposition and desires, rather than the active exercise of them, which is No. 1 ( poneria ).
III. EVIL (Adj. and Noun). 1. poneros = full of labors and pains in working mischief; evil intent (Mat_12:39. Luk_11:29); grudging, in connection with the idea expressed in the "evil eye" (Mat_6:23; Mat_20:15. See the context, and cp. Luk_11:13). 2. kakos = depraved, bad in nature. Cp. No. II. 2. 3. anomos = lawless, contempt of law. 4. anomia = lawlessness. 5. athesmos = breaking through all restraints of ordinances or institutes, divine or human, to gratify one’s lusts. Occurs only in 2Pe_2:7; 2Pe_3:17.
IV. UNGODLINESS 1. asebeia = impiety, absence of "the fear of God", having no reverence for sacred things; irreligious. Sept. for pasha ’. Ap. 44. ix.
V. DISOBEDIENCE, ETC. 1. apeitheia = unwillingness to be persuaded, leading to obstinacy. 2. parakoe = unwillingness to hear, disobedient.
VI. TRANSGRESS, TRANSGRESSOR. 1. parabaino = to step on one side, overstep, go aside from, violate, transgress. 2. parerchomai = to go past, pass by, neglect. 3. parabates , one who steps aside, or oversteps.
VII. INIQUITY 1. adikia = unrighteousness, wrongdoing. 2. adikema = a wrong done. 3. paranomia = acting contrary to law or custom. Occ. only in 2Pe_2:16.
VIII. ERR, ERROR 1. planao = to cause to wander or go astray; used of doctrinal error and religious deceit. Cp. planos 1Ti_4:1, "seducing"). 2. apoplanao . No. 1 with apo = away from, prefixed (Ap. 104. iv). In Pass., to go astray from, swerve. Occ. only in Mar_13:22 and 1Ti_6:10.
3. astocheo = to deviate from. Occ. only in 1Ti_1:6; 1Ti_6:21. 2Ti_2:18. IX. FAULT 1. hettema = a diminishing of that which should have been rendered in full measure; diminution, decrease. Occ. in Rom_11:12 and 1Co_6:7.
3.22 AM here in South Africa.
Tired.
J.
If I were you, I'd go to sleep.
Sleep is EXTREMELY important.
Missing sleep, for one, diminishes immunity--supposedly, getting only 4 hours of sleep (or missing 4 hours?) diminishes immunity by 75% for a while.
I am fine if we pick this up later.
I'm telling you, brother, nothing (except praying) is worth missing sleep. It ages you--your hair line will recede more rapidly, the lines on your face will proceed, and, internally, the corresponding aging will occur.
Individuals who are 'hearers' and 'doers' to the word/saying/teaching of Jesus Christ. When eventually in 'oneness' and 'togetherness' disciple by the same doctrine, they form a gathering/church/body of Christ. These were churches in the beginning built alone by the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. In testimony we have them in the New Testament of the Holy Bible. Where we also of today are supposedly built in, even by the Old Testament, in complete similar display like them.
Today on the contrary, we have denominations, which apparently differ from one another based on doctrines and traditions of men. Even individual believers within, also differ between one another following one's doctrine and tradition of man. That is why basically evident, after every service, able to witness believers grouping separately from one another. The New Testament scripture and doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets shall expose and determine every tree/denomination by it's fruit/believer.
Because then was the starting of individual discipleship of them who would become Apostles. Apostles who are sent out to make likewise disciple of all nation, in same word/saying/teaching of Jesus Christ. Even to the establishment in togetherness and oneness by one doctrine, gathering/church/body of Christ in every places.
And as one body of Christ everywhere established, they furthermore from the Apostles, receive further discipleship in the progressive word/saying/teaching of Jesus Christ from Heaven.
We're no wise nor able to advice Christ, but rather abide and hopefully be among the few who will find it.
For i've had help from the Holy Ghost serving to testify, and those verse are for me too, to abide.
Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ
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Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
Consider the reasoning he is using :
"Jesus teaches many parables, and we are to take them seriously, but, here, the parable Jesus tells Peter--because he asked for instruction about forgiveness (instructions Christ wanted His apostles to bring to the nations, so they would observe all He taught)--that ends with the explicit lesson, 'So My heavenly Father will do to YOU if you do not forgive', you are in error for taking THIS particular parable seriously (why do you not take Jesus seriously when He says 'cut your hand off if it makes you sin'?), because Christ was just wasting His breath uttering such folly about events which could never occur. Christ also mischaracterized God to His disciples by attributing to God the capacity to rescind forgiveness--those were mere words He didn't want taken seriously, because they reflect no reality about God."
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Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
This is a general reminder to us all .
Those who love sin will twist scripture . scripture that gets in the way of their desire , is scripture they do and they will twist
in order to feel fine and justified for why they do as they do .
But a lamb will simply feast upon the lovely words of the LORD , knowing that all things HE did say
from every warning to every word is good for our soul and reminds us of that which is good for us .
Now hit the trenches my friend . for in these last hours on earth those whom love the LORD and thus they heed and embrace
HIS words are not gonna be loved by those whose love is of self and not For GOD .
This is but a general reminder to us all today . Beware for many now no longer endure sound doctrine
but have heaped up teachers who rather tone down warnings about sin and even now accept certain sins .
Teachers who preach a jesus who feeds the flesh and keeps the money pots filled in churches is not a JESUS that will save one soul .
Too many leaders have long preached sermons and teachings that were meant to do one thing
to entertain and to please men . But if i were to please men i would not be the servant of Christ .
Time we simply speak every word of the LORD and all reminders , learn to embrace them all .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
correctamendo my friend . this is exactly what they do . but why do they do this
IN order to also over look other teachings HE said . that is why folks do as they do .
I have had that phrase used against me when i went to correct sinful behavoir .
When i reminded the church about keeping ALL his teachings . THEY always try and say and make it seem
as though JESUS either didnt mean what HE said or what HE said dont really apply to us today .
I DONT HEED A WORD out of their lips either . EVERY WORD of the LORD is FOOD for our soul .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Not saying this about johann . But this is just a simple reminder .
seems to me like i see many sleeping already . they sleep , they snore when truth is taught
but WHEN entertainment and seductive heresays come in , they WIDE awake and ready for more .
Men will walk a mile for a game but wont even bend over to grab a bible to read .
They will run with arms wide open to men who preach doctrinal error
yet throw the book and harsh words at those who come to preach truth . yeah , i would certainly say we got a huge
problem going on within a lot of christendom these days .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Let all who name the name of Christ depart from inquity , hit the trenches and defend and contend for the one true faith
that was delivered long long ago by Christ and the apostels . Get in those bibles my friends .
The last hour is upon us and the battle for souls rages onwards .
that was delivered long long ago by Christ and the apostels . Get in those bibles my friends .
The last hour is upon us and the battle for souls rages onwards .
In answer to the OP, I would say we are not "justified" by works, so much as we are "spurred on" by works - where once we did not have an appetite for works, now we do quite spiritually.
