Justified by Works

[Johann]

Please clarify your objection, because I don't see the objection to what I said.

We are justified by faith-do you have a problem with that? Even @amigo de christo told you.
J.

 

[GracePeace]

We are justified by faith-do you have a problem with that? Even @amigo de christo told you.
J.

I agree we're justified by faith, but isn't it obvious, in that the person who doesn't walk in faith is condemned (Ro 14:23), that God is continually assessing whether the man has faith (ie, whether he is walking in faith), thus is continually pronouncing either the man's justification or condemnation? I don't believe justification is "one and done".

 

[Johann]

Technically, we are justified by having God's righteousness, and this is by faith, but if we don't walk in faith, we don't have God's righteousness, and we are condemned (Ro 14:23), so, no, justification is not "faith alone", it's also walking in that faith, because justification isn't "one and done", but God continually assesses us--at least, that's my view.

The righteousness of God IN Christ Jesus, justified by faith.

Romans 3:28: "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law."

Romans 5:1: "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Galatians 2:16: "Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

Galatians 3:24: "So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith."

Romans 4:5: "And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness."

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Titus 3:7: "So that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Philippians 3:9: "And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith."

These scriptures firmly teach that justification comes through faith, not by works of the law.

Why is it you have a problem with this?
J.

 

[amigo de christo]

Technically, we are justified by having God's righteousness, and this is by faith, but if we don't walk in faith, we don't have God's righteousness, and we are condemned (Ro 14:23), so, no, justification is not "faith alone", it's also walking in that faith, because justification isn't "one and done", but God continually assesses us--at least, that's my view.

you mean faith cometh NOT ALONE .
If a man claims to be walking in faith and yet has not works , THEN HIMS NOT WALKING IN FAITH .
For Christ WORKS in us those good wonderful works we do . isnt that beautiful my friend .
Who we obey is whose we are . there has been this war for a long time my friend .
I am just trying to help simplify it .
Faith without works is dead . No doubt about that . This is hard to explain on the computer .
the darnest thing just occured to me . WE are saying the same thing . somehow its getting misunderstood

 

[Johann]

I agree we're justified by faith, but isn't it obvious, in that the person who doesn't walk in faith is condemned (Ro 14:23), that God is continually assessing whether the man has faith (ie, whether he is walking in faith), thus is continually pronouncing either the man's justification or condemnation? I don't believe justification is "one and done".

Oh-now I see, you don't believe our forensic justification is "once for all"
How do you understand sanctification?
J.

 

[GracePeace]

The righteousness of God IN Christ Jesus, justified by faith.

Romans 3:28: "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law."

Romans 5:1: "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Galatians 2:16: "Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

Galatians 3:24: "So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith."

Romans 4:5: "And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness."

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Titus 3:7: "So that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Philippians 3:9: "And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith."

These scriptures firmly teach that justification comes through faith, not by works of the law.

Why is it you have a problem with this?
J.

LOL Our entire discussion has apparently flown out the window!
Yes, "in Christ", but not all remain in Christ, and this is obvious in that the person who does what he does not believe in is "condemned" (Ro 14:23), whereas the person who is "in Christ" has "no condemnation" (Ro 8:1), and this is because abiding in Him is by keeping His commands (1 Jn 3:23,24). This is why John says "little children abide in Him so that you will not shrink back in shame at His appearing" as Hebrews 10 warns "My righteous one will live by faith, but if [My righteous one] draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him... unto destruction."

 

[GracePeace]

you mean faith cometh NOT ALONE .
If a man claims to be walking in faith and yet has not works , THEN HIMS NOT WALKING IN FAITH .

I wouldn't put it in those words, only because there is no indication the man who does what he doubts is correct in Romans 14:23 is an unbeliever--therefore, since he is affirmed as a believer, but he sins by going against his beliefs, I cannot say that faith automatically comes with good works. He isn't said to have denied Christ, but that he believed in Christ, but did not walk in faith/do what he believed he ought.

 

[amigo de christo]

We are justified by faith-do you have a problem with that? Even @amigo de christo told you.
J.

Johann i think i just seen the problem . he actually is saying what we say
he just dont like the word alone .
I think its because he thinks when we say alone we somehow contradict faith without works .
But i have been watching what he is saying and what he says to me . ITS the same thing .
Its almost like a word thing or something .

 

[GracePeace]

Johann i think i just seen the problem . he actually is saying what we say
he just dont like the word alone .
I think its because he thinks when we say alone we somehow contradict faith without works .
But i have been watching what he is saying and what he says to me . ITS the same thing .
Its almost like a word thing or something .

Yeah, we are justified by God's righteousness by faith, but faith is not only to be held, but also walked in, so walking in faith is not "works" of our own righteousness, walking in faith is God's righteousness that justifies us.

 

[Johann]

I agree we're justified by faith, but isn't it obvious, in that the person who doesn't walk in faith is condemned (Ro 14:23), that God is continually assessing whether the man has faith (ie, whether he is walking in faith), thus is continually pronouncing either the man's justification or condemnation? I don't believe justification is "one and done".

See for yourself how you quote a verse out of context-

Rom 14:1 Do Not Pass Judgment on One Another
¶ Now receive the one who is weak in faith, but not for quarrels about opinions.
Rom 14:2 One believes he may eat all things , but the one who is weak eats only vegetables.
Rom 14:3 The one who eats must not despise the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat must not judge the one who eats, because God has accepted him.
Rom 14:4 Who are you, who passes judgment on the domestic slave belonging to someone else? To his own master he stands or falls, and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:5 ¶ One person [Some manuscripts have “For one person”] prefers one day over another day, and another person regards every day alike . Each one must be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 The one who is intent on the day is intent on it for the Lord, and the one who eats eats for the Lord, because he is thankful to God, and the one who does not eat does not eat for the Lord, and he is thankful to God.
Rom 14:7 For none of us lives for himself and none dies for himself.
Rom 14:8 For if we live, we live for the Lord, and if we die, we die for the Lord. Therefore whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s.
Rom 14:9 For Christ died and became alive again for this reason , in order that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

Rom 14:10 ¶ But why do you judge your brother? Or also, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
Rom 14:11 For it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me,
and every tongue will praise God.” [A quotation from Isa 45:23]

Rom 14:12 ¶ So [Some manuscripts have “So then,”] each one of us will give an account concerning himself. [Some manuscripts have “an account concerning himself to God”]

Do Not Cause Another to Stumble
Rom 14:13 ¶ Therefore, let us no longer pass judgment on one another, but rather decide this: not to place a cause for stumbling or a temptation before a brother.
Rom 14:14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean of itself, except to the one who considers something to be unclean; to that person it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 For if because of food, your brother is grieved, you are no longer living according to love. Do not destroy by your food that person for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Therefore do not let your good be slandered.
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Rom 14:18 For the one who serves Christ in this way is well-pleasing to God and approved by people.

Rom 14:19 ¶ So then, let us pursue what promotes peace [Literally “the things of peace”] and what edifies one another [Literally “the things of edification toward one another”].
Rom 14:20 Do not destroy the work of God on account of food. All things are clean, but it is wrong for the person who eats and stumbles in the process [Literally “who eats with stumbling”].
Rom 14:21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine or to do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is weakened. [Some manuscripts omit “or is offended or is weakened”]
Rom 14:22 The faith that you have, have with respect to yourself before God. Blessed is the one who does not pass judgment on himself by what he approves.
[Rom 14:23 But the one who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not do so from faith, and everything that is not from faith is sin.]

Why quote THIS verse, neglecting the whole context?
J.

 

[GracePeace]

See for yourself how you quote a verse out of context-

Rom 14:1 Do Not Pass Judgment on One Another
¶ Now receive the one who is weak in faith, but not for quarrels about opinions.
Rom 14:2 One believes he may eat all things , but the one who is weak eats only vegetables.
Rom 14:3 The one who eats must not despise the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat must not judge the one who eats, because God has accepted him.
Rom 14:4 Who are you, who passes judgment on the domestic slave belonging to someone else? To his own master he stands or falls, and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:5 ¶ One person [Some manuscripts have “For one person”] prefers one day over another day, and another person regards every day alike . Each one must be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 The one who is intent on the day is intent on it for the Lord, and the one who eats eats for the Lord, because he is thankful to God, and the one who does not eat does not eat for the Lord, and he is thankful to God.
Rom 14:7 For none of us lives for himself and none dies for himself.
Rom 14:8 For if we live, we live for the Lord, and if we die, we die for the Lord. Therefore whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s.
Rom 14:9 For Christ died and became alive again for this reason , in order that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

Rom 14:10 ¶ But why do you judge your brother? Or also, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
Rom 14:11 For it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me,
and every tongue will praise God.” [A quotation from Isa 45:23]

Rom 14:12 ¶ So [Some manuscripts have “So then,”] each one of us will give an account concerning himself. [Some manuscripts have “an account concerning himself to God”]

Do Not Cause Another to Stumble
Rom 14:13 ¶ Therefore, let us no longer pass judgment on one another, but rather decide this: not to place a cause for stumbling or a temptation before a brother.
Rom 14:14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean of itself, except to the one who considers something to be unclean; to that person it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 For if because of food, your brother is grieved, you are no longer living according to love. Do not destroy by your food that person for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Therefore do not let your good be slandered.
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Rom 14:18 For the one who serves Christ in this way is well-pleasing to God and approved by people.

Rom 14:19 ¶ So then, let us pursue what promotes peace [Literally “the things of peace”] and what edifies one another [Literally “the things of edification toward one another”].
Rom 14:20 Do not destroy the work of God on account of food. All things are clean, but it is wrong for the person who eats and stumbles in the process [Literally “who eats with stumbling”].
Rom 14:21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine or to do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is weakened. [Some manuscripts omit “or is offended or is weakened”]
Rom 14:22 The faith that you have, have with respect to yourself before God. Blessed is the one who does not pass judgment on himself by what he approves.
[Rom 14:23 But the one who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not do so from faith, and everything that is not from faith is sin.]

Why quote THIS verse, neglecting the whole context?
J.

How is my quoting of the verse "out of context"?

 

[amigo de christo]

I wouldn't put it in those words, only because there is no indication the man who does what he doubts is correct in Romans 14:23 is an unbeliever--therefore, since he is affirmed as a believer, but he sins by going against his beliefs, I cannot say that faith automatically comes with good works. He isn't said to have denied Christ, but that he believed in Christ, but did not walk in faith/do what he believed he ought.

In part you are correct . that not all have the same measure of faith perhaps . but that some , when it comes to meats
drinks and days , WHICH are not sin in and of themselves , eat or do according to their conscious .
now meats drinks and days are not sin . but to some they have a weaker faith and believe they may eat only certain things etc .
But this is concerning meats , drinks and days .

 

[GracePeace]

In part you are correct . that not all have the same measure of faith perhaps . but that some , when it comes to meats
drinks and days , WHICH are not sin in and of themselves , eat or do according to their conscious .
now meats drinks and days are not sin . but to some they have a weaker faith and believe they may eat only certain things etc .
But this is concerning meats , drinks and days .

Right, the particular examples of actions people may or may not take are not, in and of themselves, sinful or righteous, but, rather, the man who does or does not do them must be in faith, fully persuaded in his own mind. Therefore, the general concept is that the individual who does any deed (eating or drinking or observing a day) that does not proceed from faith is not performing God's righteousness by faith and is therefore condemned for not remaining in God's justifying righteousness.

 

[Johann]

In part you are correct . that not all have the same measure of faith perhaps . but that some , when it comes to meats
drinks and days , WHICH are not sin in and of themselves , eat or do according to their conscious .
now meats drinks and days are not sin . but to some they have a weaker faith and believe they may eat only certain things etc .
But this is concerning meats , drinks and days .

I have shown him the Scriptures but he is very selective in his verse selection..
J.

 

[Johann]

Right, the particular examples of actions people may take are not, in and of themselves, sinful or righteous, but, rather, the man who does or does not do them must be in faith, fully persuaded in his own mind. Therefore, the general concept is that the individual who does any deed (eating or drinking or observing a day) that does not proceed from faith is not performing God's righteousness by faith and is therefore condemned for not remaining in God's justifying righteousness.

Condemned to Hell?

 

[GracePeace]

I have shown him the Scriptures but is very selective in his verse selection..
J.

You have claimed this, but have not substantiated the claim.

 

[GracePeace]

Condemned to Hell?

Without repentance, yes, walking contrary to your own thoughts, your own convictions, doing things you have doubts about, is sin, so it leads to a state of condemnation, not justification--and living that way, without repentance, without returning to walking with a clear conscience, will not lead to life but death (Ro 8:12,13).

 

[Johann]

You have claimed this, but have not substantiated the claim.

Rom 14:1 Do Not Pass Judgment on One Another
¶ Now receive the one who is weak in faith, but not for quarrels about opinions.
Rom 14:2 One believes he may eat all things , but the one who is weak eats only vegetables.
Rom 14:3 The one who eats must not despise the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat must not judge the one who eats, because God has accepted him.
Rom 14:4 Who are you, who passes judgment on the domestic slave belonging to someone else? To his own master he stands or falls, and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:5 ¶ One person [Some manuscripts have “For one person”] prefers one day over another day, and another person regards every day alike . Each one must be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 The one who is intent on the day is intent on it for the Lord, and the one who eats eats for the Lord, because he is thankful to God, and the one who does not eat does not eat for the Lord, and he is thankful to God.
Rom 14:7 For none of us lives for himself and none dies for himself.
Rom 14:8 For if we live, we live for the Lord, and if we die, we die for the Lord. Therefore whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s.
Rom 14:9 For Christ died and became alive again for this reason , in order that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

Rom 14:10 ¶ But why do you judge your brother? Or also, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
Rom 14:11 For it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me,
and every tongue will praise God.” [A quotation from Isa 45:23]

Rom 14:12 ¶ So [Some manuscripts have “So then,”] each one of us will give an account concerning himself. [Some manuscripts have “an account concerning himself to God”]

Do Not Cause Another to Stumble
Rom 14:13 ¶ Therefore, let us no longer pass judgment on one another, but rather decide this: not to place a cause for stumbling or a temptation before a brother.
Rom 14:14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean of itself, except to the one who considers something to be unclean; to that person it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 For if because of food, your brother is grieved, you are no longer living according to love. Do not destroy by your food that person for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Therefore do not let your good be slandered.
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Rom 14:18 For the one who serves Christ in this way is well-pleasing to God and approved by people.

Rom 14:19 ¶ So then, let us pursue what promotes peace [Literally “the things of peace”] and what edifies one another [Literally “the things of edification toward one another”].
Rom 14:20 Do not destroy the work of God on account of food. All things are clean, but it is wrong for the person who eats and stumbles in the process [Literally “who eats with stumbling”].
Rom 14:21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine or to do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is weakened. [Some manuscripts omit “or is offended or is weakened”]
Rom 14:22 The faith that you have, have with respect to yourself before God. Blessed is the one who does not pass judgment on himself by what he approves.
Rom 14:23 But the one who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not do so from faith, and everything that is not from faith is sin.

YOUR verse--tell me, is this person condemned to Hell?

 

[amigo de christo]

LOL Our entire discussion has apparently flown out the window!
Yes, "in Christ", but not all remain in Christ, and this is obvious in that the person who does what he does not believe in is "condemned" (Ro 14:23), whereas the person who is "in Christ" has "no condemnation" (Ro 8:1), and this is because abiding in Him is by keeping His commands (1 Jn 3:23,24). This is why John says "little children abide in Him so that you will not shrink back in shame at His appearing" as Hebrews 10 warns "My righteous one will live by faith, but if [My righteous one] draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him... unto destruction."

Yes john , pual and even peter make mention of these things .
John even says IF that which ye have been TAUGHT shall REMAIN IN YOU
THEN you shall continue in the Father and the SON .
You see already way back then the spirit of anti christ had come to decieve .
Wanna hear something big time scary for a lot of christendom today .
THAT SPIRIT OF ANTI CHRIST IS ALL OVER IT .
HOW SO you might ask . What DID JOHN say was a liar and an anti christ . HE who denies JESUS IS THE CHRIST .
What did john say about one who believes NOT the testmony that GOD gave of HIS SON . HE calls GOD A LIAR .
but what does todays big ol all inclusive love train try and say to the church .
OH the other religoins serving the same GOD we do . EVEN THOUGH THEY DENY JESUS IS THE CHRIST
even though they DENY and dont BELIEVE THE TESTIMONY that GOD gave of HIS SON and thus CALL GOD A LIAR .
SO how on earth are we and the mulsims or any other friggen religoin servingthe same GOD .
THEY DENY THE NEED to BELIEVE JESUS IS THE CHRIST and just say we all serve the same GOD junk .
THAT IS OF ANTI CHRIST . and you would marvel at how many are now going right under it
JESUS is getting denied by a false broad path fake love to GOD LIE . that most of the church is now beginining to follow suit with .
ITS OF ANTI CHRIST . and i dont follow anti christ or anti christs . ITS THE ONE TRUE GOSPEL for me .

 

[GracePeace]

Rom 14:1 Do Not Pass Judgment on One Another
¶ Now receive the one who is weak in faith, but not for quarrels about opinions.
Rom 14:2 One believes he may eat all things , but the one who is weak eats only vegetables.
Rom 14:3 The one who eats must not despise the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat must not judge the one who eats, because God has accepted him.
Rom 14:4 Who are you, who passes judgment on the domestic slave belonging to someone else? To his own master he stands or falls, and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:5 ¶ One person [Some manuscripts have “For one person”] prefers one day over another day, and another person regards every day alike . Each one must be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 The one who is intent on the day is intent on it for the Lord, and the one who eats eats for the Lord, because he is thankful to God, and the one who does not eat does not eat for the Lord, and he is thankful to God.
Rom 14:7 For none of us lives for himself and none dies for himself.
Rom 14:8 For if we live, we live for the Lord, and if we die, we die for the Lord. Therefore whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s.
Rom 14:9 For Christ died and became alive again for this reason , in order that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

Rom 14:10 ¶ But why do you judge your brother? Or also, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
Rom 14:11 For it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me,
and every tongue will praise God.” [A quotation from Isa 45:23]

Rom 14:12 ¶ So [Some manuscripts have “So then,”] each one of us will give an account concerning himself. [Some manuscripts have “an account concerning himself to God”]

Do Not Cause Another to Stumble
Rom 14:13 ¶ Therefore, let us no longer pass judgment on one another, but rather decide this: not to place a cause for stumbling or a temptation before a brother.
Rom 14:14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean of itself, except to the one who considers something to be unclean; to that person it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 For if because of food, your brother is grieved, you are no longer living according to love. Do not destroy by your food that person for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Therefore do not let your good be slandered.
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Rom 14:18 For the one who serves Christ in this way is well-pleasing to God and approved by people.

Rom 14:19 ¶ So then, let us pursue what promotes peace [Literally “the things of peace”] and what edifies one another [Literally “the things of edification toward one another”].
Rom 14:20 Do not destroy the work of God on account of food. All things are clean, but it is wrong for the person who eats and stumbles in the process [Literally “who eats with stumbling”].
Rom 14:21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine or to do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is weakened. [Some manuscripts omit “or is offended or is weakened”]
Rom 14:22 The faith that you have, have with respect to yourself before God. Blessed is the one who does not pass judgment on himself by what he approves.
Rom 14:23 But the one who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not do so from faith, and everything that is not from faith is sin.

YOUR verse--tell me, is this person condemned to Hell?

Answered.

Without repentance, yes, walking contrary to your own thoughts, your own convictions, doing things you have doubts about, is sin, so it leads to a state of condemnation, not justification--and living that way, without repentance, without returning to walking with a clear conscience, will not lead to life but death (Ro 8:12,13).