Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false

[Spiritual Israelite]

Is that the best you can do?

No, but it's the best you're going to get. I've already said everything I wanted to say to you. Is that hard for you to understand? You're practically begging me to talk to you. Are you lonely?

 

[covenantee]

I asked for something easy to provide.

And I complied.

 

[WPM]

Where does Rev 20 teach that Jesus won't come and rule on this earth?

Both questions are of equal value as neither one are directly addressed in that chapter. However, there are many prophecies more plain, that specify the chosen nation begin regathered to their land, in which God Himself would live with them. It's hard to imagine that we haven't been through these before. Let me know it you'd like a refresher. We'll look at chapters in Dueteronomy, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, at prophecies given by Jesus. If you want.

But I think we've discussed this and topics like it, and I'm not planning to try to convince you of anything.

Much love!

Lol. The burden of proof is with you too prove what you're claiming. Revelation 20 says nothing about your claim. You force it into that. You add on the Scripture. So, it is time for you to put your evidence on the table.

 

[marks]

Lol. The burden of proof is with you too prove what you're claiming. Revelation 20 says nothing about your claim. You force it into that. You add on the Scripture. So, it is time for you to put your evidence on the table.

Did you even read my reply?

Much love!

 

[ewq1938]

I don’t think Jesus could come back and rule on this earth in its corrupt state?..do you....

He came the first time into this corrupt world, and came back here when he resurrected even. Surely he comes back to this same world at the second coming, literally contained within the very wording.

Amill thinks Jesus rules over this corrupt world right now but clearly the world is ruled by satan which is why the world is so corrupt.

I thought there is going to be a new heaven and a new earth?

Yes, but not until the Millennium, the little season rebellion, the casting of satan into the LOF and the GWTJ of the unsaved takes place. Only then will the NHNE come. Neither satan nor his angels nor the unsaved will exist within or upon the new Earth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, but it's the best you're going to get. I've already said everything I wanted to say to you. Is that hard for you to understand? You're practically begging me to talk to you. Are you lonely?

I get that you don't want to talk to me. What happened to posting so that others might benefit? Were you joking?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Lol. The burden of proof is with you too prove what you're claiming. Revelation 20 says nothing about your claim. You force it into that. You add on the Scripture. So, it is time for you to put your evidence on the table.

Marks is right. The most straightforward literal interpretation is that Jesus is ruling on earth for a thousand years. The onus is on you to show that John intended to say otherwise.

 

[CadyandZoe]

And I complied.

You inserted ideas into Amos 9:9 that aren't there.

 

[Scott Downey]

He came the first time into this corrupt world, and came back here when he resurrected even. Surely he comes back to this same world at the second coming, literally contained within the very wording.

Amill thinks Jesus rules over this corrupt world right now but clearly the world is ruled by satan which is why the world is so corrupt.




Yes, but not until the Millennium, the little season rebellion, the casting of satan into the LOF and the GWTJ of the unsaved takes place. Only then will the NHNE come. Neither satan nor his angels nor the unsaved will exist within or upon the new Earth.

We will see all things put under Christ when Christ returns.

What do people believe happens then?
vs what does scripture say happens is the main concern.

You got several things happening, all those who do not know God and do not obey Christ, are wiped off the earth, killed.

The parable of the Minas also confirms that. Right there is a main point of contention between premill and amil.
Premill says there will be unsaved, unbelieving survivors, who are the enemies of Christ who have enmity against Him who remain alive at Christ's return. Romans 8 tells us of the unbelievers who have this enmity.

Since Christ says no there will not be any, in v27, we can stop right there, no need to go any further. Case closed. The idea is a lie. Why keep believing in a lie.

Luke 19

The Parable of the Minas​

11 Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately. 12 Therefore He said: “A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten [e]minas, and said to them, ‘Do business till I come.’ 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We will not have this man to reign over us.’ (all unbelieving)

15 “And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned ten minas.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned five minas.’ 19 Likewise he said to him, ‘You also be over five cities.’

20 “Then another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief. 21 For I feared you, because you are [f]an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 And he said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’

24 “And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.’ 25 (But they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas.’) 26 ‘For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ”

 

[Scott Downey]

The reason premills say that there are unsaved survivors who live on at the return of Christ is their doctrine requires babies to be born and the population on the earth to grow like the sands of the seashore. (Gee wiz sounds like the way it is now) And all those babies grow up to be Christ haters, that Christ is ruling over a humongous number of enemies and these enemies cover the face of the whole earth in number. So the kingdom of God instead of steadily growing larger and filling the whole earth like Christ teaches, shrinks smaller and smaller as the 1000 years reign progresses according to them.
Theses humongous number of satanists then go on to attack the 'camp of the saints' and God sends down fire from heaven to destroy them all...

It sure sounds like the second coming in fiery wrath of Christ, but the premills say he already came back a thousand years beforehand.

Rev 20, the satanic rebellion is destroyed at Christ's return, just like 2 Thessalonians 2 teaches. Not after 1000 years of time after Christ's return, so this reigning with Christ is not on this earth.

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years​

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Satanic Rebellion Crushed​

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

2 Thess 2 is where Rev 20:9 happens, immediately at Christ's return, not 1000 years after Christ's return

The Great Apostasy​

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I get that you don't want to talk to me. What happened to posting so that others might benefit? Were you joking?

Are you being purposely dense here or is it just by accident? I have already had a lot to say on the subject and don't currently have any more to add. I'm not going to repeat the same things to you that I already said to someone else about it in this thread. Read all of my posts if you want to know what I believe about this.

I probably post more frequently than anyone here and you're complaining that I'm not posting more. LOL.

 

[WPM]

Marks is right. The most straightforward literal interpretation is that Jesus is ruling on earth for a thousand years. The onus is on you to show that John intended to say otherwise.

What? That is the most ridiculous statement i have heard.

No. 1, it does not say anywhere in Revelation 20 that this is after the second coming, or is there any biblical corroboration to support that.

No. 2, it does not say that Jesus is on earth for these thousand years anywhere, the reigning is in glory after death in the here and now.

No. 3, you do not base any major doctrine on total silence. That is what you are pushing at here. That is nonsensical.

 

[Scott Downey]

One persons journey from Scofield dispensensationalism (HaHa, oh that's funny) to embracing amillenialism

Why I Changed My Mind About the Millennium

Sam Storms discusses whether or not to question premillennialism and offers challenges from Scripture for Premillennialists.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

Scriptural Challenges for Premillenialists​

If you are a premillennialist, whether dispensational or not, there are several things with which you must reckon:

• You must necessarily believe that physical death will continue to exist beyond the time of Christ’s second coming.

• You must necessarily believe that the natural creation will continue, beyond the time of Christ’s second coming, to be subjected to the curse imposed by the Fall of man.

• You must necessarily believe that the New Heavens and New Earth will not be introduced until 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

• You must necessarily believe that unbelieving men and women will still have the opportunity to come to saving faith in Christ for at least 1,000 years subsequent to his return.

• You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally resurrected until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

• You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally judged and cast into eternal punishment until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

So what’s wrong with believing these things, asks the premillennialist? What’s wrong is that these many things that premillennialists must believe (because of the way they interpret Scripture), the NT explicitly denies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The reason premills say that there are unsaved survivors who live on at the return of Christ is their doctrine requires babies to be born and the population on the earth to grow like the sands of the seashore. (Gee wiz sounds like the way it is now) And all those babies grow up to be Christ haters, that Christ is ruling over a humongous number of enemies and these enemies cover the face of the whole earth in number. So the kingdom of God instead of steadily growing larger and filling the whole earth like Christ teaches, shrinks smaller and smaller as the 1000 years reign progresses according to them.
Theses humongous number of satanists then go on to attack the 'camp of the saints' and God sends down fire from heaven to destroy them all...

It sure sounds like the second coming in fiery wrath of Christ, but the premills say he already came back a thousand years beforehand.

Rev 20, the satanic rebellion is destroyed at Christ's return, just like 2 Thessalonians 2 teaches. Not after 1000 years of time after Christ's return, so this reigning with Christ is not on this earth.

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years​

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Satanic Rebellion Crushed​

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

2 Thess 2 is where Rev 20:9 happens, immediately at Christ's return, not 1000 years after Christ's return

The Great Apostasy​

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Agree. Notice that the time when the restraint is removed is related to "the coming of the lawless one" which is related to "the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders". This means that "the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders" was previously restrained and then is loosed. That is directly related to the loosing of Satan at the end of the thousand years.

 

[covenantee]

You inserted ideas into Amos 9:9 that aren't there.

You object to the reference there to the righteous?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He came the first time into this corrupt world, and came back here when he resurrected even. Surely he comes back to this same world at the second coming, literally contained within the very wording.

Amill thinks Jesus rules over this corrupt world right now but clearly the world is ruled by satan which is why the world is so corrupt.

Does anything happen in this world without Jesus allowing it? Does He currently have no control over what happens in the world? Is He a powerless King?

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

He HAS all power over earth and IS "the ruler of the kings of the earth" but somehow currently is powerless to have any effect on the earth?

John said "to him be glory and power for ever and ever!". But, not right now? Premills have no clue who Jesus is.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

One persons journey from Scofield dispensensationalism (HaHa, oh that's funny) to embracing amillenialism

Why I Changed My Mind About the Millennium

Sam Storms discusses whether or not to question premillennialism and offers challenges from Scripture for Premillennialists.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

Scriptural Challenges for Premillenialists​

If you are a premillennialist, whether dispensational or not, there are several things with which you must reckon:

• You must necessarily believe that physical death will continue to exist beyond the time of Christ’s second coming.

• You must necessarily believe that the natural creation will continue, beyond the time of Christ’s second coming, to be subjected to the curse imposed by the Fall of man.

• You must necessarily believe that the New Heavens and New Earth will not be introduced until 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

• You must necessarily believe that unbelieving men and women will still have the opportunity to come to saving faith in Christ for at least 1,000 years subsequent to his return.

• You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally resurrected until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

• You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally judged and cast into eternal punishment until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

So what’s wrong with believing these things, asks the premillennialist? What’s wrong is that these many things that premillennialists must believe (because of the way they interpret Scripture), the NT explicitly denies.

Right. They turn his climactic second coming into an anticlimactic event where people still have to deal with sin and death. It's sad.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Marks is right. The most straightforward literal interpretation is that Jesus is ruling on earth for a thousand years. The onus is on you to show that John intended to say otherwise.

This is 100% pure nonsense. The most straightforward literal interpretation is that Jesus is ruling in heaven with the souls of the dead in Christ because nowhere in Revelation 20 are they located anywhere else.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What? That is the most ridiculous statement i have heard.

Your objection, as stated above, seems rather ungrounded, as it highlights either a lack of objectivity or a reluctance to engage in a balanced discussion regarding this important issue. Those who strive to maintain objectivity in their interpretation will readily concede that Revelation chapter 20 is open to varied interpretations, neither firmly supporting one view over the other. On one side, many theologians advocate for an Amillennial interpretation, suggesting that the thousand-year reign mentioned is symbolic rather than literal. Conversely, there are theologians who champion a Premillennial perspective, arguing for a concrete, future reign of Christ on Earth. Ultimately, regardless of the scholarly approach taken, it is important to recognize that individuals approach this scripture with pre-existing beliefs and assumptions about the end times, which inevitably color their interpretations.

No. 1, it does not say anywhere in Revelation 20 that this is after the second coming, or is there any biblical corroboration to support that.

There is good reason to think that John is talking about Christ's rule on earth in that passage.
John located the information found in Revelation 20 immediately after the information found in Revelation 19.

The most striking moment in Revelation 19 comes when heaven opens, and Jesus appears riding a white horse, called Faithful and True. His eyes blaze like fire, and He wears many crowns, signifying His ultimate authority. He leads heavenly armies, clothed in white linen, as He comes to judge the nations and establish His reign. His return marks the final victory over evil, as He defeats the beast and false prophet, casting them into the lake of fire.

Since Revelation 19 focuses on deliverance and the establishment of a theocracy on earth rather than personal salvation, it logically follows that Revelation 20 continues with the same theme. It seems unlikely that John would abruptly change the subject without any indication or warning.

No. 2, it does not say that Jesus is on earth for these thousand years anywhere, the reigning is in glory after death in the here and now.

Yes, Revelation 20:4 describes thrones being set up, and it signifies the reign of Christ and His faithful followers during the millennial kingdom. The passage states that those who were martyred for their faith and those who remained steadfast against the beast will be given authority to rule alongside Christ for a thousand years.

The thrones symbolize judgment and governance, as those seated on them are granted the responsibility to execute justice and reign with Christ. This aligns with earlier biblical themes where God’s people are promised a role in His kingdom. The passage highlights the victory of the faithful, showing that their perseverance leads to a place of honor and authority in Christ’s reign.

I am confident that those who support the theory of Amillennialism, while remaining objective, will agree that the summary of the passage provided above is reasonable, based on certain assumptions. In other words, it is neither unreasonable nor unlikely to be the correct interpretation of that passage.

You may disagree, given certain assumptions, but it isn't fair to suggest that it is ridiculous.

No. 3, you do not base any major doctrine on total silence. That is what you are pushing at here. That is nonsensical.

The standard you have established seems quite demanding, especially considering that you anticipate John to be very precise in his language. However, it's important to recognize that we shouldn't expect John to reiterate himself unnecessarily. For instance, in Revelation 19, he has already made the significant declaration of placing Jesus upon the Earth. Given this context, it would be unreasonable to expect him to restate this information in Revelation 20, as it would be redundant and counter to the style of his writing. John's approach typically favors clarity and progression rather than unnecessary repetition.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is 100% pure nonsense. The most straightforward literal interpretation is that Jesus is ruling in heaven with the souls of the dead in Christ because nowhere in Revelation 20 are they located anywhere else.

You are making the same exegetical mistake as WPM, not taking into account that Revelation 19 describes Jesus doing battle with nations on earth and Revelation 20 gives no evidence that the venue has moved up into heaven.

Revelation 20:1 implies that the angel is coming down to earth from heaven. The passage describes the angel descending with the key to the Abyss and a great chain, and then seizing Satan and binding him. Since Satan is active on earth, the angel’s arrival suggests a direct intervention in the earthly realm to carry out God’s judgment.

This moment highlights God’s power over evil, as the angel executes divine authority by restraining Satan. It marks the transition into the millennial reign, a period of peace before the final judgment.