James Was Not Talking about Faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation

[Bible Highlighter]

i meant to speak to the “eternal life” bit :)

Eternal life is a person named Jesus and not a super power.
He that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).
How do we have an assurance that we know the Son or Jesus?
1 John 2:3 basically says we can have an assurance that we know the Lord if we find we are keeping His commandments.
1 John 2:4 says that the person who says they know the Lord and they don’t keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them.
So you have to obey God as a part of salvation or eternal life to abide in you.

“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:6).

Burned meaning destroyed in the lake of fire.

Jesus says basically in Matthew 7:26-27 that if a person does not do what He says they are like a fool who built their house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

Here is an illustration:

 

[bbyrd009]

Eternal life is a person named Jesus and not a super power.
He that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).
How do we have an assurance that we know the Son or Jesus?
1 John 2:3 basically says we can have an assurance that we know the Lord if we find we are keeping His commandments.
1 John 2:4 says that the person who says they know the Lord and they don’t keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them.
So you have to obey God as a part of salvation or eternal life to abide in you.

“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:6).

Burned meaning destroyed in the lake of fire.

Jesus says basically in Matthew 7:26-27 that if a person does not do what He says they are like a fool who built their house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

Here is an illustration:

you’re preaching to the choir :)

 

[bbyrd009]

Choir? what a weird word lol

 

[marks]

That’s an ad hominem.

Yes, you are correct, I apologize!

Much love!

 

[marks]

@Bible Highlighter

Many verses I've posted to you that make clear statements, which you can either accept or reject, but I encourage you to receive them.

What we all want, as children of God, is to live pure and holy and righteous lives, and this is how we do that, by living out our reconciliation in complete faith in Jesus Christ, both to save us from the penalty of our sins in judgment, and to release us from the power of sin in our lives.

Both are included in our justification, as God justifies us both in having Abraham's faith, "and he believed in God, and He counted it to him for righteousness", and in being baptized into Christ's death, "the one who has died has been justified away from sin". Forgiveness, and a new life, this is our salvation.

God is the One Who justifies, meaning, "to render righteous". This is both judicially (faith of Abraham) and practically (newness of life). Jesus died to give you these, and if we believe Him, we can walk in that reality. But be it to you according to your faith.

A weaker faith will always search out some way of obtaining God's approval based on some observable reason, I'm a good guy, I do good things, stuff like that. When we truly understand that all we receive from God we receive in Christ, this frees us to trust Him in that open and innocent faith that is helpless to do anything else.

As the Spirit bears His fruit in our live this renews us, restores us, and as we are renewed, we become renewed. Jesus is made unto us sanctification, that our glorying is in Him, not in ourselves.

It's a clear divide. Who receives the credit for saving you? For me, it's Christ alone. If He does not save me I am not saved. But in Him, I am saved, and have eternal life in Him.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

I believe there are...

Two Sides of the Coin of Faith:

The 1st Side of the Coin of Faith:

Faith starts off as a belief or trust in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (John 3:16). We are first (initially) saved by God's grace through faith without the deeds of the law or works ALONE (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved initially and foundationally by God's grace and mercy like the receiving of a gift (Which is a process of salvation that does not involve works).:​

​

Perhaps I can help you to be more clear in understanding how having faith and doing works cannot be apart from one another with God, even as having love and loving God cannot be separated from one another: there is not one without the other.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

There are two kinds of faith: faith that agrees, which is dead between the ears, and faith that obeys, which is alive in the heart.

The former is faith only first 'and then' works, but the latter is faith with obedience only.

Faith starts off as a belief or trust in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (John 3:16). We are first (initially) saved by God's grace through faith without the deeds of the law or works ALONE (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved initially and foundationally by God's grace and mercy like the receiving of a gift (Which is a process of salvation that does not involve works).

This is no 'initial' salvation by faith only. FI there were, then there would continue to be a salvation by faith only.

Salvation is only with works, because faith is not recieved, until it is obeyed: the first works of faith are in the heart by obedience to the faith to purify the heart.

We get our faith by believing and obeying what Jesus and His apostles said.

Which you here confirm: we only receive Him and His faith into the heart, when we begin to obey His faith with the heart.

The reason you are ensnared in a fruitless debate with faith only for salvation, is because you mistakenly try to hold to the carnal minded lie of faith first 'and then' works, which you first tried to confirm, but then you reject correctly by preaching believing and obeying are one and the same at the same time: there is no believing Him without obeying Him, which is dead faith alone, and there is no obeying Him without believing Him, which, as you rightly point out, is vain works alone.

There is no such thing with God, nor in Scripture, for faith first before and apart from works: the spiritual truth of the faith of Jesus, is that obedience to Him begins in the heart to purify our heart with His power to become sons of God.

With humanism, there is a 'timeline' and distinctive separation between faith and works, but not with God. The temporal separation and distinction only pertains to this life in a mortal body, but does not doctrinally nor spiritually pertain to faith and works beginning in the heart.

Faith is recieved deep into the heart only when obedience begins to purify the heart, and so make the ground good and the tree good:

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

There is no faith of Jesus in the heart, until that faith is being obeyed to purify and make the heart holy, even as He is pure and holy.

This is the stone of stumbling to them that justify continuing in sins and trespasses with a heart uncleansed of lust: by the humanist thinking of this life, that there is a distinct differing separation between faith and works:

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

The first works are not of the body, but are where the first love is: in the heart.

The first love is the first great commandment to love God with all the heart, which is not possible with lust of the world abiding in the heart.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

All hearers who have yet to cleanse their hearts of lust, are still blind to the purity and holiness of God, and are still walking in darkness thinking to keep the second great commandment without obeying the first.

A blind Pharisee is any hearer that agrees with the gospel, but then goes on to love their neighbors with an unclean heart of lust, because they did not do the first works of purifying their hearts to love God with a whole heart of faithful obedience to Him.

When you leave behind the erroneous thinking of first faith for salvation and then works for justification, there will be no more contradicting efforts to first justify being saved by faith alone, and then try to preach only being justified with works 'following'.

There is no separation between faith and works, even as there is no separation between salvation and justification of God: Both salvation and justification begin with faith and works in the heart, which are the first works of the first love of God to obey Him in our hearts.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This simply is not true.

If anyone has read any of my posts, they have seen over and over again where I have shown from the Bible that salvation is based upon God's grace and man's obedience:

Noah built an ark (man's obedience) in order to be receive God's grace (salvation from the flood).
Naaman dipped 7 times in the Jordan (mans' obedience) in order to receive God's grace (healing of his disease).
The blind man washed his eyes in the pool (man's obedience) in order to receive God's grace (sight).

Man's obedience and God's grace are not mutually exclusive. In the 3 examples I gave above, obedience and grace can and do co-exist. God has joined the two together which no man can ever separate with his own ideas (Proverbs 14:12).

God's grace is not unconditional else all men will be saved unconditionally (Titus 2:11) but all men will not be saved (Matthew 7:13). As seen in each of the 3 examples, reception of God's grace was CONDITIONAL upon man's obedience and man's obedience did not earn/merit God's grace. Man's obedience is simply meeting a necessary prerequisite God has placed upon receiving His grace.

Paul refutes the idea that salvation is by grace alone in Romans 6. Even though the Christian is saved by grace that does not give the Christian license to sin for Christians are those who are dead to sin. For those who continue to sin are serving "sin unto death" (Romans 6:16). Since sin is transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4) then the only solution to sin is OBEDIENCE to God's law in order to keep from serving sin unto death.

Therefore salvation takes man's obedience to keep from serving sin unto death AND it takes God's grace because man's obedience will not be perfectly sinless. In the 3 examples above, man's obedience put man in a position to receive God's grace...Noah built an ark thereby putting him in a position to receive God's grace (salvation from the flood). Had he disobeyed and not built the ark he would have drowned because he failed to put himself in a position to receive God's gift of salvation from the flood.

Therefore salvation is a combination, a synergy that requires BOTH man's obedience and God's grace thereby God and man BOTH have a role in man's salvation. Obedient works is man's role in salvation therefore obviously obedience to God's will is a great truth taught among the church of Christ because there is no salvation apart from obedience. God will not save those who continue in disobedience/unrighteousness...he that continues to not do righteousness continues to not be of God (1 John 3:10)....God accepts those who work righteousness (Acts of the Apostles 10:35).

The problem is focusing a laser beam on one aspect of Scripture and drawing the wrong conclusions. Take for example this picture below. Each person is seeing what they desire to see without looking at the bigger picture.

Perpetual Belief Alone Christians make this same mistake in regards to salvation and they ignore one aspect of the Scriptures on holy living as a part of God’s plan of salvation. I believe the Bible teaches that there are two aspects of salvation. Time is what separates the difference between the two. Paul emphasizes the first aspect of salvation in being saved by God’s grace without works and James emphasizes the second aspect of salvation in living holy by the Spirit of God.

Like the picture above: I believe you are observing one aspect of something and drawing the wrong conclusion. You cannot in good conscience read Romans 11:6 and believe it plainly. It says if it is of grace it is no more works and if it be of works it is no more grace. That cannot apply for your belief system if you defend the Church of Christ’s view in that they teach water baptism for initial salvation. The whole point Paul argued for grace was for a similar refuting a similar heresy because in Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24 we learn that Gentile Christians were being deceived by Jews in that they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved. Circumcision is a work of the Law of Moses, and if a person believed they had to be circumcised in order to first be saved, they would be making a work or Law the entrance gate and foundation of their salvation. This is what Paul spoke against.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The problem is focusing a laser beam on one aspect of Scripture and drawing the wrong conclusions. Take for example this picture below. Each person is seeing what they desire to see without looking at the bigger picture.

Perpetual Belief Alone Christians make this same mistake in regards to salvation and they ignore one aspect of the Scriptures on holy living as a part of God’s plan of salvation. I believe the Bible teaches that there are two aspects of salvation. Time is what separates the difference between the two. Paul emphasizes the first aspect of salvation in being saved by God’s grace without works and James emphasizes the second aspect of salvation in living holy by the Spirit of God.

Like the picture above: I believe you are observing one aspect of something and drawing the wrong conclusion. You cannot in good conscience read Romans 11:6 and believe it plainly. It says if it is of grace it is no more works and if it be of works it is no more grace. That cannot apply for your belief system if you defend the Church of Christ’s view in that they teach water baptism for initial salvation. The whole point Paul argued for grace was for a similar reason because in Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24 we learn that Gentile Christians were being deceived by Jews in that they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved. Circumcision is a work of the Law of Moses, and if a person believed they had to be circumcised in order to first be saved, they would be making a work or Law the entrance gate and foundation of their salvation. This is what Paul spoke against.

I have heard as many sermons on grace as I have on man's obedience. The "big picture" is salvation requires both God's grace and man's obedience.

Romans 11:6 the "works" refers to works of merit, not obedience. Though salvation requires man's obedience, no man's obedience will be perfectly sinless whereby he would merit forgiveness. Therefore grace is required for man's obedience will not be perfect:
"Forgiveness is a matter of grace, no matter how many conditions one must fulfill in order to be forgiven. If a man's works had always been perfect, he would have no sins to be forgiven; he would stand justified on his own merit. There is no grace when a man merits justification. Works by which a man merits justification, and commands which one must obey to be saved, are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many religionists cannot, or will not, see this distinction, which should be plainly seen by any Bible reader.

Because they fail to make this distinction they conclude that a sinner must do nothing to be saved. A man has no real understanding of either works or grace when he thinks conditions of forgiveness make salvation a matter of works and not of grace. Nothing that a sinner can do merits salvation. Many things are of grace, and yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think Naaman's healing of leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the river Jordan? Is any so blind that he cannot see that giving sight to the blind man was a matter of grace, even though he had to go wash in the pool of Siloam? If so, he needs his eyes opened as badly as did the blind man." Whiteside; 'Paul's Letter To The Saints At Rome'

In the 3 examples I gave, obedience was necessary to receive God's free gift. If those men's obedience were works of merit, then God OWED Noah salvation from the flood for building the ark. God OWED Naaman a cure for his disease. Yet nowhere ever does the Bible call obedience to God a work of merit for no one's obedience will be perfect whereby one would merit God's free gift.

As pointed out above, if man could obey God perfectly then man would have no sin to be forgiven therefore have need no grace for he would stand justified by his own merit by his perfect obedience.

Therefore perfect flawless works and obedience are two distinct issues:
--Since man's obedience will not be perfect then there's nothing man can do to merit God's grace.
--Yet man can meet the conditions God has placed upon His free gift (as Noah building the ark and Naaman dipping in the river) and obedience does not require perfect, flawless works.

One will never understand Biblical salvation until one learns the distinction between works of merit and obedience.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have heard as many sermons on grace as I have on man's obedience. The "big picture" is salvation requires both God's grace and man's obedience.

Romans 11:6 refers to works of merit, not obedience. Though salvation requires man's obedience not man's obedience will be perfectly sinless whereby he would merit forgiveness. Therefore grace is required for man's obedience will not be perfect:
"Forgiveness is a matter of grace, no matter how many conditions one must fulfill in order to be forgiven. If a man's works had always been perfect, he would have no sins to be forgiven; he would stand justified on his own merit. There is no grace when a man merits justification. Works by which a man merits justification, and commands which one must obey to be saved, are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many religionists cannot, or will not, see this distinction, which should be plainly seen by any Bible reader.

Because they fail to make this distinction they conclude that a sinner must do nothing to be saved. A man has no real understanding of either works or grace when he thinks conditions of forgiveness make salvation a matter of works and not of grace. Nothing that a sinner can do merits salvation. Many things are of grace, and yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think Naaman's healing of leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the river Jordan? Is any so blind that he cannot see that giving sight to the blind man was a matter of grace, even though he had to go wash in the pool of Siloam? If so, he needs his eyes opened as badly as did the blind man." Whiteside; 'Paul's Letter To The Saints At Rome'

In the 3 examples I gave, obedience was necessary to receive God's free gift. If those men's obedience were works of merit, then God OWED Noah salvation from the flood for building the ark. God OWED Naaman a cure for his disease. Yet nowhere ever does the Bible call obedience to God a work of merit for no one's obedience will be perfect whereby one would merit God's free gift.

As pointed out above, if man could obey God perfectly then man would have no sin to be forgiven therefore have need no grace for he would stand justified by his own merit by his perfect obedience.

Therefore perfect flawless works and obedience are two distinct issues:
--Since man's obedience will not be perfect then there's nothing man can do to merit God's grace.
--Yet man can meet the conditions God has placed upon His free gift (as Noah building the ark and Naaman dipping in the river) and obedience does not require perfect, flawless works.

One will never understand Biblical salvation until one learns the distinction between works of merit and obedience.

Again, holy living by faith is the second aspect of salvation and your drawing the wrong conclusion just as Perpetual Belief Alone Proponents do. You cannot in good conscience believe Romans 11:6 without twisting it.

 

[Titus]

This simply is not true.

If anyone has read any of my posts, they have seen over and over again where I have shown from the Bible that salvation is based upon God's grace and man's obedience:

Noah built an ark (man's obedience) in order to be receive God's grace (salvation from the flood).
Naaman dipped 7 times in the Jordan (mans' obedience) in order to receive God's grace (healing of his disease).
The blind man washed his eyes in the pool (man's obedience) in order to receive God's grace (sight).

Man's obedience and God's grace are not mutually exclusive. In the 3 examples I gave above, obedience and grace can and do co-exist. God has joined the two together which no man can ever separate with his own ideas (Proverbs 14:12).

God's grace is not unconditional else all men will be saved unconditionally (Titus 2:11) but all men will not be saved (Matthew 7:13). As seen in each of the 3 examples, reception of God's grace was CONDITIONAL upon man's obedience and man's obedience did not earn/merit God's grace. Man's obedience is simply meeting a necessary prerequisite God has placed upon receiving His grace.

Paul refutes the idea that salvation is by grace alone in Romans 6. Even though the Christian is saved by grace that does not give the Christian license to sin for Christians are those who are dead to sin. For those who continue to sin are serving "sin unto death" (Romans 6:16). Since sin is transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4) then the only solution to sin is OBEDIENCE to God's law in order to keep from serving sin unto death.

Therefore salvation takes man's obedience to keep from serving sin unto death AND it takes God's grace because man's obedience will not be perfectly sinless. In the 3 examples above, man's obedience put man in a position to receive God's grace...Noah built an ark thereby putting him in a position to receive God's grace (salvation from the flood). Had he disobeyed and not built the ark he would have drowned because he failed to put himself in a position to receive God's gift of salvation from the flood.

Therefore salvation is a combination, a synergy that requires BOTH man's obedience and God's grace thereby God and man BOTH have a role in man's salvation. Obedient works is man's role in salvation therefore obviously obedience to God's will is a great truth taught among the church of Christ because there is no salvation apart from obedience. God will not save those who continue in disobedience/unrighteousness...he that continues to not do righteousness continues to not be of God (1 John 3:10)....God accepts those who work righteousness (Acts of the Apostles 10:35).

[/QUOTE]

My folks raised me in the church of Christ. I've been to churches of Christ all over the United States. I am friends with many preachers in churches of Christ. Never have I heard any teaching from any member that Grace is not how we are saved. Gods word teaches Gods grace and our faith is how we are saved, Ephesians 2:8-9. Fact is, there is no church that claims to be christian, teaches no Grace is involved in salvation. Frankly, that is a ridiculous accusation. To be saved without grace is to be saved without Christ's work on the cross.

 

[Titus]

Again, holy living by faith is the second aspect of salvation and your drawing the wrong conclusion just as Perpetual Belief Alone Proponents do. You cannot in good conscience believe Romans 11:6 without twisting it.

You should realize, you have drawn the wrong conclusion with your, faith alone salvation doctrine but saved by faith and works salvation doctrine.
It cannot be both, for they contradict themselves.

Every example we have that were saved had to Do something to be saved. They all had to obey Jesus' gospel. Death bed arguments does not change Jesus' gospel. This is an argument to find a loop hole in the gospel. Jesus' word cannot be changed due to circumstances.
I believe what Jesus said, Mark 16:15-16. That is faith and obedience in order to be saved.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

My folks raised me in the church of Christ. I've been to churches of Christ all over the United States. I am friends with many preachers in churches of Christ. Never have I heard any teaching from any member that Grace is not how we are saved. Gods word teaches Gods grace and our faith is how we are saved, Ephesians 2:8-9. Fact is, there is no church that claims to be christian, teaches no Grace is involved in salvation. Frankly, that is a ridiculous accusation. To be saved without grace is to be saved without Christ's work on the cross.

Romans 5:1-2 faith gives access into grace.....man's role is to have an obedient faith and God's role is supplying grace. No faith = no grace.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

you’re preaching to the choir :)

Do you believe in Conditional Salvation or Unconditional Salvation?
Are you Free Will Baptist whereby a person can decide to not follow Jesus later on, and yet on the other hand sin does not separate a believer from God? I just ask these questions to figure out what you believe and so as to direct our conversation if you are truly interested in engaging on this kind of discussion.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Again, holy living by faith is the second aspect of salvation and your drawing the wrong conclusion just as Perpetual Belief Alone Proponents do. You cannot in good conscience believe Romans 11:6 without twisting it.

Paul required obedience in order to be saved, Romans 6:16 "obedience UNTO righteousness" and Paul put obedience BEFORE being freed from sin in Romans 6:17-18. Paul required obedience in believing, repenting, confession and baptism in order to be saved, (Romans 2:4-5; Romans 10:9-10; Romans 6:3-6). Paul opened and closed his Roman epistle with obedience to the faith (Romans 1:5; Romans 16:26). Therefore Paul does not contradict himself in Romans 11:6 by eliminating obedience after he already require obedience.

Context, Romans 9 Paul prove God was just/righteous in casting off elect people, Jews. Romans 10 Paul proved the Jews were lost because they would not obey, they would not submit themselves to God's righteousness (Romans 10:3). The Jews would not obey God (Romans 10) and in Romans 11:1-6 Paul shows that God's people have always been those who OBEY Him. Back in OT times those who were God's people were those who obeyed God by not bowing to Baal (v4). And in this present time, God's people are those who obey the NT gospel (election of grace, v5) as that remnant obeyed in Acts 2 by obeying God in repenting and being baptized.

Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works:" Paul just showed those who obey God (remnant that obeyed by not bowing to Baal in OT and those who obeyed Acts 2:38 in NT) are God's people. Hence Paul is NOT contrasting obedience from grace but is contrasting perfect, sinless works of merit versus grace.
If one could obey God's law perfectly, flawlessly then one would have no sin, thereby have no need of forgiveness/grace. But if salvation is by grace then salvation cannot be by works of perfect, flawless law keeping. Since man cannot be perfectly sinless in his obedience, then there is no amount of work man can do to merit grace. This means forgiveness is a matter of God's grace and it is those who obey God that receive grace. And Paul made obedience (not flawless, perfect law keeping) in believing, repentance, confession and baptism necessary prerequisites in order to receive forgiveness/salvation/grace. And it has always been those who obey God, in OT times and NT times, who received grace and were God's people.

Paul makes a clear contrast between obedience and flawless works of merit. To try and lump obedience in with works of merit is a fatal flaw for obedience is never called a work of merit in the Bible. Because no one's obedience will be perfectly sinless to merit God's free gift. And one will never correctly understand Biblical salvation until one learns the distinction between works of merit and obedience.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You should realize, you have drawn the wrong conclusion with your, faith alone salvation doctrine but saved by faith and works salvation doctrine.
It cannot be both, for they contradict themselves.

It's not a contradiction because time separates the two events (or two aspects of salvation). Just as a baby in a crib within a hospital cannot do any work that an adult does. Or just like when a person is hired based on a resume or video interview, vs. doing the actual work at the job, time separates the two things.

Yet, you believe in the contradiction that babies who die in the womb are saved by God's grace without doing any works. Contradiction. Your belief is not consistent according to your own rulebook, my friend.

Every example we have that were saved had to Do something to be saved.

Doing certain things in life does not equate with physically laborious work.
For example: If a person tells their wife they are sorry, that is not a work. Yes. They are doing something. But that's not really work at a physical laborious job like say framing a house, or lifting heavy packages in a delivery company, or doing farm work, etcetera. To think otherwise is to fall into the ridiculousness of having a Jewish law based mindset. For example:

Jewish law, or halacha, forbids the use of electrical items on the Sabbath. But for decades rabbis have allowed special elevators that automatically stop at every floor without the riders pushing any buttons, permitting Orthodox Jews to ride them and live in high-rise buildings.​

Source:
Rabbinical ruling causes havoc on elevators

This to me is not work. Pushing a button on an elevator is not work. It's pushing a button. Nobody sweats or groans or breaks their back pushing a button an elevator. Nor do they have to be careful if they push the wrong button at the wrong time whereby it can hurt somebody like saying operating construction vehicles. Walking is actually more laborious. It's the idea of working at a job and doing manual labor is what is in view..

They all had to obey Jesus' gospel.

Men were forgiven of their sins when they were healed by Jesus (before the cross), and so I disagree. Yes, some were baptized but it was not the water that was saving them but it was the confession of their sins part. The water was just a picture of symbol pointing ahead to the greater reality at Pentecost and beyond (Which is Spirit baptism). But of course I know you strongly disagree with that. You erroneously read water into verses like 1 Corinthians 12:13 when it clearly is not talking about that. You also do not seem to somehow understand 1 Corinthians 1:17.

Death bed arguments does not change Jesus' gospel.

Again, the thief on the cross. Yet, you suggest that the thief could have potentially theorize that the thief could have been water baptized prior. Yet, the Bible does not say and so you are arguing simply from silence. The testimony of Scripture leads us to believe that he was saved by God's grace without works (Which is what you dislike).

This is an argument to find a loop hole in the gospel.

Your version of the gospel is not the same gospel as plainly told to us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
Therein lies the problem with your belief. You made assumptions about what the gospel is when the Bible does not really conform to your definition of the gospel. For no other place gives us the clear definition of the gospel like 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Jesus' word cannot be changed due to circumstances.
I believe what Jesus said, Mark 16:15-16. That is faith and obedience in order to be saved.

Matthew 28:19-20
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

Mark 16:15-16
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

Hebrews 9:10 says,
“Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.”

Again, the word “washings” is the Greek word “baptismos” (βαπτισμός) (Check out here for the Strong’s definition). In other words, Hebrews 9:10 is saying that diverse baptisms (washings) were imposed on believers until the time of reformation. Meaning, water baptism will give way or pass away until the time of reformation (Which means that Spirit baptism is now the one and only true baptism for today).

I see the great commission given by Jesus as God allowing the Messianic Jews to continue in John’s water baptism until the time of reformation (Until God made it more clear that it would be no more). Meaning, God allowed for them to catch up with His understanding on what He really desired of them. Like Messianic prophecies, the great commission has a double meaning. God allowed for them to water baptize (the symbol) that pointed to the greater reality (Spirit baptism). Today in our time: I see the baptizing part as referring to the Holy Spirit baptism. Paul makes it clear that Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel and yet you contradict yourself and think baptism is the gospel when that thought is not expressed in 1 Corinthians 1:17.

 

[robert derrick]

If you have one, you will have the other in increasing degree throughout the remainder of your terrestrial life. By grace you are saved through faith, now being recreated by Christ to walk in His works.

Salvation produces works, but salvation is not maintained by works, salvation is always and only in Christ, by trusting Him to save.

Much love!

Salvation produces works, but salvation is not maintained by works, salvation is always and only in Christ, by trusting Him to save.

This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Not maintaining is not Scripture, and is not good for salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul required obedience in order to be saved, Romans 6:16 "obedience UNTO righteousness" and Paul put obedience BEFORE being freed from sin in Romans 6:17-18. Paul required obedience in believing, repenting, confession and baptism in order to be saved, (Romans 2:4-5; Romans 10:9-10; Romans 6:3-6). Paul opened and closed his Roman epistle with obedience to the faith (Romans 1:5; Romans 16:26). Therefore Paul does not contradict himself in Romans 11:6 by eliminating obedience after he already require obedience.

First, the whole point of Romans 6 is not sinning while under grace (See: Romans 6:1-2, Romans 6:15). Meaning, Paul is not referring exclusively here to Initial Salvation in how you must do a work to be saved. In fact, he never uses those kinds of words in Romans 6. Paul never says, “When you first came to Christ, you did a work of righteousness by being water baptized so as to be saved.” No words of this sort exist in this chapter. Like your friends who believe in “No grace ever unless there is a work or works”, you are erroneously reading works into the word “obedience” and automatically equating it with works.

Babies who are aborted are saved purely by God’s grace without any works. So this disproves the notion that one must always have works in order to be saved.

Also, let me give you an example:

Bob tells Rick to seek forgiveness with his wife for something bad he said to her (that he did not really mean to say). Rick later seeks forgiveness with his wife, and Rick later talks with Bob. Bob asks Rick, “Did you take my advice?” Rick replied: “Yes, and I was blessed by God that she forgave me.” In other words, we can say that Rick obeyed Bob’s advice in seeking forgiveness with his wife. But can we say this is a physically laborious work on Rick’s part to seek forgiveness with his wife? No. Generally normally people do not think that this kind of thing is a work like work at a job.

The Jews think pushing buttons in an elevator is work. Do you think that way?
In other words, my whole point is grace. Grace is the opposite of works when we think about those two words.

Second, I don’t believe Romans 6:17-18 supports your belief here, friend.

Romans 6:17-18 says,
“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”

My commentary below with brackets in blue:

Romans 6:17-18
“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you [you-all obeyed the doctrine of receiving and believing the gospel message that saves as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4]. Being then made free from sin [Being made free from sin by believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4], ye became the servants of righteousness [you-all became servants of righteousness by taking the next step in entering the Sanctification Process by the Holy Spirit by putting away sin, and idols, and by bringing forth the good works of God working through you - See: Romans 8:1, and Romans 8:13].”

This is what I believe the passage is saying. It’s not promoting the idea that you had to do a work in order to be initially saved.

Context, Romans 9 Paul prove God was just/righteous in casting off elect people, Jews. Romans 10 Paul proved the Jews were lost because they would not obey, they would not submit themselves to God's righteousness (Romans 10:3). The Jews would not obey God (Romans 10) and in Romans 11:1-6 Paul shows that God's people have always been those who OBEY Him. Back in OT times those who were God's people were those who obeyed God by not bowing to Baal (v4). And in this present time, God's people are those who obey the NT gospel (election of grace, v5) as that remnant obeyed in Acts 2 by obeying God in repenting and being baptized.

Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works:" Paul just showed those who obey God (remnant that obeyed by not bowing to Baal in OT and those who obeyed Acts 2:38 in NT) are God's people. Hence Paul is NOT contrasting obedience from grace but is contrasting perfect, sinless works of merit versus grace.
If one could obey God's law perfectly, flawlessly then one would have no sin, thereby have no need of forgiveness/grace. But if salvation is by grace then salvation cannot be by works of perfect, flawless law keeping. Since man cannot be perfectly sinless in his obedience, then there is no amount of work man can do to merit grace. This means forgiveness is a matter of God's grace and it is those who obey God that receive grace. And Paul made obedience (not flawless, perfect law keeping) in believing, repentance, confession and baptism necessary prerequisites in order to receive forgiveness/salvation/grace. And it has always been those who obey God, in OT times and NT times, who received grace and were God's people.

Paul makes a clear contrast between obedience and flawless works of merit. To try and lump obedience in with works of merit is a fatal flaw for obedience is never called a work of merit in the Bible. Because no one's obedience will be perfectly sinless to merit God's free gift. And one will never correctly understand Biblical salvation until one learns the distinction between works of merit and obedience.

But you believe one has to perfectly obey a particular work in order to be saved by God’s grace which flies in the face of grace without works taught by Paul. Paul says if it is be of grace it is no more works and yet you say that there still is a work like baptism to be saved by grace. This is adding works into the grace equation and that is not taught when we are being saved by God’s grace. Paul makes it clear that Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel in 1 Corinthians 1:17. But you think water baptism is for salvation, right?

Here is 1 Corinthians 1:17 in how it reads normally in the King James Bible:

1 Corinthians 1:17 KJB (Correct Unaltered Version)
“For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”

Now, lets exchange the words baptize for save in 1 Corinthians 1:17 and see how that reads.

1 Corinthians 1:17 (Incorrect Altered Bible Translation)
“For Christ sent me not to save, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”

You think that baptism is the gospel which is silly. Why? Well, lets read how this verse would be understood if we exchanged the word baptize for preach the gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:17 (Incorrect Altered Bible Translation)
“For Christ sent me not to preach the gospel, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”

Do you now see how your belief here does not make any sense?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul required obedience in order to be saved, Romans 6:16 "obedience UNTO righteousness" and Paul put obedience BEFORE being freed from sin in Romans 6:17-18. Paul required obedience in believing, repenting, confession and baptism in order to be saved, (Romans 2:4-5; Romans 10:9-10; Romans 6:3-6). Paul opened and closed his Roman epistle with obedience to the faith (Romans 1:5; Romans 16:26). Therefore Paul does not contradict himself in Romans 11:6 by eliminating obedience after he already require obedience.

Context, Romans 9 Paul prove God was just/righteous in casting off elect people, Jews. Romans 10 Paul proved the Jews were lost because they would not obey, they would not submit themselves to God's righteousness (Romans 10:3). The Jews would not obey God (Romans 10) and in Romans 11:1-6 Paul shows that God's people have always been those who OBEY Him. Back in OT times those who were God's people were those who obeyed God by not bowing to Baal (v4). And in this present time, God's people are those who obey the NT gospel (election of grace, v5) as that remnant obeyed in Acts 2 by obeying God in repenting and being baptized.

Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works:" Paul just showed those who obey God (remnant that obeyed by not bowing to Baal in OT and those who obeyed Acts 2:38 in NT) are God's people. Hence Paul is NOT contrasting obedience from grace but is contrasting perfect, sinless works of merit versus grace.
If one could obey God's law perfectly, flawlessly then one would have no sin, thereby have no need of forgiveness/grace. But if salvation is by grace then salvation cannot be by works of perfect, flawless law keeping. Since man cannot be perfectly sinless in his obedience, then there is no amount of work man can do to merit grace. This means forgiveness is a matter of God's grace and it is those who obey God that receive grace. And Paul made obedience (not flawless, perfect law keeping) in believing, repentance, confession and baptism necessary prerequisites in order to receive forgiveness/salvation/grace. And it has always been those who obey God, in OT times and NT times, who received grace and were God's people.

Paul makes a clear contrast between obedience and flawless works of merit. To try and lump obedience in with works of merit is a fatal flaw for obedience is never called a work of merit in the Bible. Because no one's obedience will be perfectly sinless to merit God's free gift. And one will never correctly understand Biblical salvation until one learns the distinction between works of merit and obedience.

I would like to add that it is true that Romans 6:3-7 talks about how the Christian believers in Rome had been water baptized into Christ’s death (Whereby they were set free from sin). But this water baptism is merely symbolic of the real reality or action of what was taking place (Which is believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, calling upon the name of the Lord in seeking forgiveness with Him - Romans 10:13, Luke 18:9-14, Hebrews 4:16, and in receiving or inviting Christ into our life - John 1:12).

God back then was able to Spirit baptize a believer while they were being water baptized when first coming to the faith. Spirit baptism is the greater reality of water baptism because God is changing a person’s heart, too. But this water baptism was only until the time of reformation (Hebrews 9:10). Paul was making it clear that Christ sent him not to baptize (1 Corinthians 1:17). If this is the case, then it was not for salvation. For even Peter said baptism does not save us by the putting away of the filth of the flesh (sin), but it is done as an answer of having a good conscience towards God. It was the old way of what they did with John the baptist’s ministry. Jesus made it clear that things would change with believers being baptized into the Spirit instead. We see this happen with Cornelius and yet Peter did not understand this yet and so he just water baptized him and his family anyways (without having the full knowledge that Paul had when he wrote to the Corinthian believers).

 

[Titus]

Repeating what I already explained to you.

Yet, you believe in the contradiction that babies who die in the womb are saved by God's grace without doing any works. Contradiction. Your belief is not consistent according to your own rulebook, my friend.

You already tried this argument.
I already told you it does not work, because babies are not obeying the gospel.
Babies do not have to believe, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Babies are not saved by faith alone.
Babies are saved without faith.
Babies are saved without obedience.
Therefore babies are saved without the gospel.
They are saved because they were never separated from God because of sin.
Adults need the gospel because we are sinners.
Our sins separate us from God, Isaiah 59:2.

So, your reasoning is wrong.
Babies have never been separated from God.
Babies are without sin.
Babies do not need saving. They are already saved.

Jewish law, or halacha, forbids the use of electrical items on the Sabbath. But for decades rabbis have allowed special elevators that automatically stop at every floor without the riders pushing any buttons, permitting Orthodox Jews to ride them and live in high-rise buildings.

It is irrelevant how other religions define works.
We only obey the law of Christ.
We let Jesus' gospel define works that are involved in salvation. Not jews!

Men were forgiven of their sins when they were healed by Jesus (before the cross), and so I disagree

As a already taught you, by the example of the thief on the cross,
No one is saved by Jesus without an obedient desire to serve Him.

Look at the story of the women caught in adultery,
John 8:1-11

Jesus knew her heart.
What did He say to her?
Go and sin no more.

Do you think Jesus would have forgave her if her heart was that she had no intention of changing her sinfull ways?

It is the same with all the stories of individuals Jesus forgave before His gospel was in force, Hebrews 9:16-17.

They all had to give their lives to Christ, obedience.
No one was saved by just believing Jesus but not repenting of sins.

Again, the thief on the cross. Yet, you suggest that the thief could have potentially theorize that the thief could have been water baptized prior. Yet, the Bible does not say and so you are arguing simply from silence. The testimony of Scripture leads us to believe that he was saved by God's grace without works (Which is what you dislike)

Wrong! That's your imagination that he was saved without Godly sorrow without an obedient heart, for his sins against God.
You have zero scripture to support he was not obedient prior to becoming a thief. You just speculate/assume he was not baptized as all Jews were commanded, Mark 1:4-5.

I never said he was baptized!
I said he could have been baptized by John.
You speculate he was not.
I'm not guessing, you are.
I'm saying he could or could not have been baptized.
Your position cannot be backed up with book, chapter and verse.
Also, these examples you give for supposed faith only salvation are all conveniently BEFORE Jesus' gospel was in force!
No one will be saved the way the thief was saved. Not you, not anybody!
Bad argument.

Your version of the gospel is not the same gospel as plainly told to us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
Therein lies the problem with your belief. You made assumptions about what the gospel is when the Bible does not really conform to your definition of the gospel. For no other place gives us the clear definition of the gospel like 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Wrong, Jesus was very plain what the gospel is, Mark:16:15-16.
There is only one gospel says Paul, Ephesians 4:5.
Paul taught 1Corinthians 15:1-4
Paul taught about his own obedience to Jesus' gospel in chapter 9 of Acts. And Acts 22:16.
Paul taught, belief, repentance, confession and water immersion in the book of Romans.
Jesus taught the gospel includes immersion to be saved in Mark 16:15-16.

They way you cherry pick bible verses like 1Corinthians 15:1-4 shows you do not understand basic Bible study principles.

To cherry pick verses and say that's the gospel in its entirety like 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Is the cause for all the confusion on what saves us.

Faith alone advocates say 1Corinthians 15:1-4 is the gospel in its entirety.
That's cherry picking!

No one reads an instruction manual this way!
Just ignore this part but include this part.

Yet, this is exactly the way religious folks interpret the Bible.
Its nonsense.

You say Paul taught faith alone in 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Then he contradicts himself in Romans 10:9-10 , when he teaches confession with the mouth is made unto salvation.

Here is a rule you must learn to understand the scriptures.

Necessary inference.

If Paul teaches you must have faith to be saved, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Then it must be inferred that faith is included with other verses that do not directly mention faith,
Example, Paul commands everyone to repent, Acts 17:30-31.
To understand the Bible, it must be inferred that Faith is also a requirement to be saved.

If I interpret, the scriptures the way you do, then I can say,
"Paul says to repent in Acts 17:30, he dose not mention belief!"
Therefore I don't have to believe to be saved!

That is what you are doing with 1Corinthians 15:1-4!
Stop cherry picking out faith verses.
That is not how you understand an instruction manual.

Again, the word “washings” is the Greek word “baptismos” (βαπτισμός) (Check out here for the Strong’s definition). In other words, Hebrews 9:10 is saying that diverse baptisms (washings) were imposed on believers until the time of reformation. Meaning, water baptism will give way or pass away until the time of reformation (Which means that Spirit baptism is now the one and only true baptism for today).

Wrong, I already taught you, baptismos is NEVER USED in Jesus' gospel!
Every baptism done in the name of Jesus Christ, is baptizo. Not baptismos.
There is no more baptismos in Jesus'new covenant!

I see the great commission given by Jesus as God allowing the Messianic Jews to continue in John’s water baptism until the time of reformation (Until God made it more clear that it would be no more). Meaning, God allowed for them to catch up with His understanding on what He really desired of them. Like Messianic prophecies, the great commission has a double meaning. God allowed for them to water baptize (the symbol) that pointed to the greater reality (Spirit baptism). Today in our time: I see the baptizing part as referring to the Holy Spirit baptism. Paul makes it clear that Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel and yet you contradict yourself and think baptism is the gospel when that thought is not expressed in 1 Corinthians 1:17.

Wrong! Not one baptism done in the name of Jesus Christ was baptismos!
Acts 2:38 was the first baptism done under Jesus'new gospel.
It was Baptizo!

1Corinthians 1:17
I already taught you, that water immersion was always taught and practised by Paul, when he taught the gospel.

If water immersion was not in Paul's gospel then why did he baptize the Corinthian church?

Paul said he was sent to PREACH the gospel not to be the baptizer.
Paul's gospel includes water immersion to be saved.
Paul never taught Spirit baptism as you wrongly teach.

Paul teaches water immersion into Christ death, we are water baptized with Christ and raised from the watery grave of baptism to new life with Him, born again,
Romans 6:1-6.

Paul teaches in Romans 6 that water baptism is a re-enactment of Christ's death on the cross.
In baptism is where we are raised with in likeness of His ressurection.

1Corinthians 1:1-17.
The Corinthians were abusing baptism. Saying their baptism was not by the authority of Jesus Christ but by men like Paul or Apollos or Cephas, etc.
That is why Paul said,
Verse 14-15
I thank God I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius.

Lest anyone should say, that I had baptized in my own name.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

​

Perhaps I can help you to be more clear in understanding how having faith and doing works cannot be apart from one another with God, even as having love and loving God cannot be separated from one another: there is not one without the other.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

1 John 3:18 is not talking about Initial Salvation but it is talking to believers who have already been saved by God’s grace. So this verse cannot be used to prove your point here, my friend. You need clear 100% proof that believers are saved by doing a laborous action or work in being initially saved. Do you believe water baptism is salvific? If so… that really does not match up with many verses; Especially 1 Corinthians 1:17. See the end half of my post #517 on my explanation for this verse.

There are two kinds of faith: faith that agrees, which is dead between the ears, and faith that obeys, which is alive in the heart.

The former is faith only first 'and then' works, but the latter is faith with obedience only.

Like your friends who believe in “No grace ever unless there is a work or works”, you are erroneously reading works into the word “obedience” and automatically equating it with works. Romans 10:16 equates “obeyed the gospel” with “believed.”

Babies who are aborted are saved purely by God’s grace without any works. So this disproves the notion that one must always have works in order to be saved.

Also, let me give you an example:

Bob tells Rick to seek forgiveness with his wife for something bad he said to her (that he did not really mean to say). Rick later seeks forgiveness with his wife, and Rick later talks with Bob. Bob asks Rick, “Did you take my advice?” Rick replied: “Yes, and I was blessed by God that she forgave me.” In other words, we can say that Rick obeyed Bob’s advice in seeking forgiveness with his wife. But can we say this is a physically laborious work on Rick’s part to seek forgiveness with his wife? No. Generally normally people do not think that this kind of thing is a work like work at a job.

The Jews think pushing buttons in an elevator is work. Do you think that way?
In other words, my whole point is grace. Grace is the opposite of works when we think about those two words.
Romans 11:6 makes it clear that if it be of grace then it is no more works and if it be of works it is no more grace.
Of course Paul would be teaching Belief Alone-ism if we are to take the OSAS viewpoint on this but we both agree that holy living is necessary as a part of God’s Plan of salvation. Where we strongly disagree is on being saved by God’s grace (Which you don’t seem to understand what that word means). Grace vs. works are two different things. Really just look into a dictionary on these two words and think of the distinctive of what each of these words mean and how they are different.

The clarity in Romans 11:6 is a time related issue. It’s referring to Initial Salvation and or Foundational Salvation and not the secondary aspect of Salvation which is the Sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Faith starts off as a belief or trust in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (John 3:16). We are first (initially) saved by God's grace through faith without the deeds of the law or works ALONE (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved initially and foundationally by God's grace and mercy like the receiving of a gift (Which is a process of salvation that does not involve works).

This is no 'initial' salvation by faith only.

Yes there is.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is one of the most famous passages that says we are saved by God’s grace through faith without works.

If you were to read the context, Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about “Initial Salvation.”
Ephesians 2:1 says we have been quickened (i.e. made alive).
How many times did that happen? Just one time.
Ephesians 2:8 says this grace is like a gift. How many times do you receive a gift?
Just one time, right? So this is talking about a one time event of having been saved (i.e. past tense).
This is talking about when we first came to the Lord and his salvation, and it is not referring to Continued Salvation. You have to rightly divide the difference between….

#1. “Initial Salvation by God’s grace” verses, and
#2. “Continued Salvation by the Sanctification of the Spirit” verses.
​

Romans 4:9-12 says,
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

The context:

“Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” (Romans 4:3).

Clearly we see in the above red bolded words in Romans 4:11 that Abraham was to be the father of them who would later believe. Abraham’s example was that righteousness was imputed to Abraham despite him not being circumcised (Which is a work). Verse 12 (Romans 4:12) confirms that Abraham who is the father of circumcision set an example that other believers today are to walk in the same way as Abraham by believing in the same way that Abraham did even when he was not yet circumcised (Meaning: when Abraham did not do a work initially but he believed God and it was accounted to Abraham as righteousness before circumcision which is a work). So clearly this is referring to Initial Salvation here. For we read elsewhere of how Paul and Silas simply tell the Philippian jailor to believe in Jesus to be saved (Acts of the Apostles 16:31) instead of telling him to successfully jump through a bunch of hoops of fire backwards while poodles permanently latch their mouths down upon his hands.

Titus 3:5-7 says:
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

Again, there is no way to read this passage from your viewpoint. Even if you wanted this passage to refer exclusively to Law of Moses it still really does not sound like that at all. It can be read as referring to works of righteousness of any kind here. It is referring to how we are saved by His mercy and not by works of righteousness that we have done. This passage is referring to Initial Salvation because it says how by his mercy he saved us (past tense) and it refers to how we are saved also by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost (Which is in reference the born again experience when we receive a new heart with new desires when we first seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ).

FI there were, then there would continue to be a salvation by faith only.

No. This is an oversimplification of salvation at the expense of truth. The Bible teaches two aspects of salvation but not everyone knows how to rightly divide. Most just are fine in blindly following their church or they prefer to either want to justify sin with Belief Alone-ism or they prefer Legalism with the belief that says: ““No grace ever unless there is a work or works.”