Sounds like you are speaking from both sides of your mouth. Which is it? Does sin cost you your salvation or not?
Much love!
James Was Not Talking about Faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation
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Much love!
Well, if we're boasting about that, I've been nonstop for 20 years online debating, not to mention in person teaching and discussion.
But what is that among friends?
Much love!
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
This is the key to what I am talking about.
The world lies in wickedness or sin (1 John 5:19).
This is why the world does not know Him (Jesus).
How can we have an assurance that we know Jesus?
See 1 John 2:3-4.
In other words, the promises in this passage only applies to the faithful believer and not the believer who justifies sin and evil.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Right, but you are still not dealing with the actual points I made with Scripture I brought up. You are still quietly ignoring them. So if this is how you debate, I would not really see it as you succeeding in that venture, my friend.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
I don't know what you are talking about. You need to clarify. I have already made my position of my view of salvation clear already here. I will repeat it again if you missed it.
#1. God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).
#2. Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life & A Belief of the Truth.
(The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
This is based on 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 (Which is call of the gospel; Note: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is not the gospel. It is simply the call of the gospel; For the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
13 “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation
through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,..”
through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,..”
Anyways, this secondary aspect of salvation is in two parts. It is a two part intertwined secondary aspect of salvation (Which joins the cord of Initial Salvation or Foundational Salvation in being saved by God’s grace; See note below at the end of this post). Anyways, this secondary aspect of salvation is in two parts. One does not exist without the other (Note: The following is mentioned in order according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and it is not stating that one cannot proceed the other or vise versa).
(a). Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).
(b) A Belief of the Truth is also another secondary synergistic intertwined aspect of salvation for the believer (in addition to Sanctification of the Holy Spirit). We need to study to show ourselves approved unto God according to 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJB). We need to hold to certain correct doctrines or teachings in God’s Word. One example: It is implied that denying bodily resurrection means one’s faith is overthrown (See: 2 Timothy 2:17-18). So we need to study God’s Word (the Holy Bible) and hold to it’s truths. Now, does that mean one is not saved if they don’t know of the bodily resurrection? I don’t believe so. I believe that is what God’s grace is for. But once a key core doctrine of God’s Word is revealed to a believer, they cannot reject it. So a belief of the truth is similar to Sanctification. A Christian must grow in the knowledge of God’s Word and accept it’s beautiful fundamental truths. Does holding to all truths in the Bible save? Well, I don’t think a belief in the Nephilim saves (although it is a truth taught in His Word). But I believe there are other foundational truths we must eventually learn and accept as Christians. The Spirit will guide a believer into all truth within God’s Word.
(b) A Belief of the Truth is also another secondary synergistic intertwined aspect of salvation for the believer (in addition to Sanctification of the Holy Spirit). We need to study to show ourselves approved unto God according to 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJB). We need to hold to certain correct doctrines or teachings in God’s Word. One example: It is implied that denying bodily resurrection means one’s faith is overthrown (See: 2 Timothy 2:17-18). So we need to study God’s Word (the Holy Bible) and hold to it’s truths. Now, does that mean one is not saved if they don’t know of the bodily resurrection? I don’t believe so. I believe that is what God’s grace is for. But once a key core doctrine of God’s Word is revealed to a believer, they cannot reject it. So a belief of the truth is similar to Sanctification. A Christian must grow in the knowledge of God’s Word and accept it’s beautiful fundamental truths. Does holding to all truths in the Bible save? Well, I don’t think a belief in the Nephilim saves (although it is a truth taught in His Word). But I believe there are other foundational truths we must eventually learn and accept as Christians. The Spirit will guide a believer into all truth within God’s Word.
Side Note:
(A) Initial Salvation is solely in being saved by God’s grace through faith without works.
(B) Continued Salvation (or the Secondary Aspect of Salvation) is sort of like a three corded rope (or a cord of three strands). This rope involves:
Cord #1. Initial Salvation continuing in our life as one strand of the rope in our ongoing trust in God’s grace as the foundation of our salvation. Without this grace, we would be without any hope and without salvation. For Jesus is our cornerstone or foundation upon which we are ultimately saved.
Cord #2. Sanctification of the Spirit (to live a holy life by God’s power according to His Word) (Living holy by the Spirit involves putting away sin, and doing good works, and in keeping oneself pure and not by justifying sin).
Cord #3. A Belief of the Truth (Which is a continual study and belief of God’s Holy Word known as the Holy Bible).
Cord #2. Sanctification of the Spirit (to live a holy life by God’s power according to His Word) (Living holy by the Spirit involves putting away sin, and doing good works, and in keeping oneself pure and not by justifying sin).
Cord #3. A Belief of the Truth (Which is a continual study and belief of God’s Holy Word known as the Holy Bible).
For Ecclesiastes 4:12 (GNT) says,
“A rope made of three cords is hard to break.”
Anyways, I hope this helps, and may God bless you all greatly today.
To me, the real heart of this matter is here:
1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
This is what we want. We want to live righteous, holy, pure, fruitful lives, is that not so?
And here is a very plain statement. Everyone who has this hope purifies himself. This hope, a particular hope.
"Hope" in the Bible is the expected outcome of our faith. We believe Jesus, and Jesus promises us resurrection, so we expect to be resurrected. This is having the hope of the resurrection.
Here, our "hope" is that when we see Him, we will be like Him. It's the same promise made here:
Philippians 3:20-21 LITV
20) For our citizenship is in Heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21) who will transform our body of humiliation, for it to be conformed to His body of glory, according to the working of Him to be able even to subject all things under Himself.
Everyone who has "this hope" purifies himself.
So what about when someone doesn't have that hope, the expected outcome of their faith? What happens when they are told, Well, not so fast! You may not end up being good enough! What then?
Romans 8:15-17 LITV
15) For you did not receive a spirit of slavery again to fear, but you received a Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba! Father!
16) The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God.
17) And if children, also heirs; truly heirs of God, and joint-heirs of Christ, if indeed we suffer together, that we may also be glorified together.
Do you know that testimony? Is resurrection and glorification what you expect? Or is your hope more like our modern use, just another word for wishful thinking?
Much love!
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
This would be an insult to my knowledge of the New Testament, friend. But it's okay. I realize you think you must think I don't know these verses when nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, I have been aware of the Romans 8 arguments by OSAS many times. It's an old discussion for me and not a new one. Again, I would encourage you to not rip out of your Bible verses Romans 8:1 in the King James Bible and Romans 8:13, and Romans 8:28. Those verses destroy your view of a sin and still be saved version of salvation here. Romans 8:28 needs to be read with John 14:15.
Anyways, I gotta run for work. Maybe be back later if I have time.
Blessings to you in the Lord.
Give it a rest, bro. I'm not ignoring anything, and if you spent the time writing on topic instead of about me, it would be a much shorter thread.
But if there's some particular passage burning in your mind, post it. Not a wall, post one, and explain how it says what you assert. I really don't see that you will be able.
Now, I'll go pick one.
1 Timothy 6:1-9 LITV
1) Let as many as are slaves under a yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name and teaching of God may not be blasphemed.
2) And those having believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brothers, but rather let them serve as slaves, because they are believing and beloved ones, those receiving of the good service in return. Teach and exhort these things.
3) If anyone teaches differently, and does not consent to sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching according to godliness,
4) he has been puffed up, understanding nothing, but is sick concerning doubts and arguments, out of which comes envy, strife, evil-speakings, evil suspicions,
5) meddling, of men whose mind has been corrupted and deprived of the truth, supposing gain to be godliness. Withdraw from such persons.
6) But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7) For we have brought nothing into the world, and it is plain that neither can we carry anything out.
8) But having food and clothing, we will be satisfied with these.
9) But those purposing to be rich fall into temptation, and a snare, and many foolish and hurtful lusts, which plunge men into ruin and destruction.
Paul isn't making any comment here about some born again person dying again.
Only that if someone teach contrary to sound words, it doesn't speak well of that person, in the ways he spoke. But there is no comment at all about whether sin costs us salvation.
This is going to be a common refrain for most of your verses, I think.
If you disagree with me, please show from the passage how this is not so.
Much love!
Once again, not a response.
If you disagree, don't just tell me how much you know, and don't just say, "you're doing it wrong", rather, show from the passage how what I've said is not so.
Much love!
2 Thessalonians 2:11-17 LITV
11) And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie,
12) that all may be judged, those not believing the truth, but who have delighted in unrighteousness.
13) But we ought to thank God always concerning you, brothers, beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth,
14) to which He called you through our gospel, to obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15) So, then, brothers, stand firm and strongly hold the teachings you were taught, whether by word or by our letter.
16) But may our Lord Himself, Jesus Christ, and our God and Father, the One having loved us and having given everlasting comfort and good hope by grace,
17) encourage your hearts, and may He establish you in every good word and work.
Where in this passage do we learn that sin will undo your being reborn?
There is a strong encouragement here in the words "eternal consolation", and "good hope", these refer to the outcome, and how we can be encouraged in our trust in Him to establish us in every good word and work.
Much love!
Romans 8:6-17 LITV
6) For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;
7) because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards God; for it is not being subjected to the Law of God, for neither can it be.
8) And those being in the flesh are not able to please God.
9) But you are not in flesh, but in Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, this one is not His.
10) But if Christ is in you, the body indeed is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11) But if the Spirit of the One having raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One having raised the Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies live through the indwelling of His Spirit in you.
12) So, then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to flesh,
13) for if you live according to flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.
14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15) For you did not receive a spirit of slavery again to fear, but you received a Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba! Father!
16) The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God.
17) And if children, also heirs; truly heirs of God, and joint-heirs of Christ, if indeed we suffer together, that we may also be glorified together.
Is it your view that you might put to death by the spirit the practices of the body, and live, but then the practices of the body come back to life, and you die again?
Or is this speaking of being crucified in Christ, and being reborn in Him? Once again, what does the surrounding context say?
10) But if Christ is in you, the body indeed is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11) But if the Spirit of the One having raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One having raised the Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies live through the indwelling of His Spirit in you.
This promise is that if Christ is in you, the body is dead to sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness. That if the Spirit of the One having raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, He will also make your mortal body live through the indwelling of His Spirit in you.
The condition is "if He live in you", and the outcome is "will may your mortal body live". Not, if He live in you, AND you continue in good behavior . . .
If you live according to the flesh you will die, but if you by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body you will live. You can treat that a something you do and is done, or something you have to continue to do, lest you still die.
Romans 6:5-7 LITV
5) For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the resurrection,
6) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.
7) For the one that died has been justified from sin.
Much love!
All these little jabs and such . . . where do you get these ideas that this is OK conversation? That this has any meaning, any relation to reality? Any usefulness in communication? Don't you just write that way to be self-affirming?
Much love!
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Just simply stating, this is who the epistle is addressed to. If you wish to believe that the epistle is addressed to you, I don’t have a problem with that.
Maybe you can simplify from 3 pages down to a sentence or two.
Maybe I've been misunderstanding you, only, I've had the understanding that you've been saying a born again person may yet die again if there remains sin in their life. Have I misunderstood?
Much love!
Would you mind defining your terms here?
Who justifies evil???
Just the same, can you know (NOW) that you will be like Him when you see Him (THEN)? Do you realize the implication of this question?
You still have some life to go between NOW and THEN, and if you can know now, then your knowledge is nothing more than a bad joke if you may yet be lost.
You would add conditions to a passage that don't exist in the passage, but not even that removes the meaning from the text.
If you can know now what will happen in the future, either your knowledge is false, and the Bible false, or what you can know now will in fact happen in the future, and the Bible is true.
Much love!
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Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
This was also said concerning the world,
John 18:20 KJV
[20] Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.
Jesus references the world as non believing Jews.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
In regards to John 18:20:
While this was true for the time it happened, you have to realize Jesus is God (and can know the future), and the Scriptures that we have of Jesus speaking has gone out to the whole world today. So prophetically speaking, Jesus speaks openly to the world by the written Word (the Bible) for our world day.
Also, the epistle of John was written long after Acts 10 when Peter learned of the Gentiles inclusion into God’s program. So 1 John 5:19 is in reference to all the world and not for the Jews alone in 1 John 5:19 (if that is what you are implying).
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
The belief that you have espoused in post #406 does.
I said, “I’ve talked with OSAS folk who said to me in person and online that they can mow down a crowd with a submachine gun and be saved while doing so. Is this also what you believe? Do you believe George Sodini was saved?”
Your reply was bolding these words in Scripture.
“...seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.” (Hebrews 7:25).
“...Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.” (Romans 8:34).
You repeated the point, “who is he that condemns?”
This implies that a believer can do the aforementioned evil and be saved all while having a belief alone on Jesus for salvation. Thus your belief justifies evil.
In post #313, you said,
“Every passage I've seen presented to show that the spirit children of God may yet die condemned in sin, I've found none of them actually teach that.”
So yes. You have been espousing a belief that justifies evil, and you don't even know it.
Your belief violates basic morality and it's scary stuff.
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