James Was Not Talking about Faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation

[Bible Highlighter]

I've never met George, I know nothing about George, and I'm not interested in George, or other anecdotal stories. I'm interested in discussing the Bible, and what God tells us in it. I'm not into philosophical arguments, or hypothetical speculations, or that sort of thing.

Much love!

George Sodini is a real person who turned OSAS into a license to sin. You seemed to before agree with his belief by posting verses that would support his viewpoint. It seems like you want to distance yourself from him or his belief now?

 

[Waiting on him]

You do know that James was referring to Abraham's faith in God to provide, right?

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

That is the faith James was referring to that requires works; as in leading by example; not faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works.

James was rebuking the church for sharing their faith in God to provide to the poor without meeting their immediate needs of those poor that were about to perish from the element and starvation from the bounty collected at church service. It is the church's faith in God to provide being issued to the poor that will not profit the poor nor save the poor, seeing the church's faith is dead without leading by example.

It is understandable for why many read James verses out of context thinking it applies also to the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, but no. When reading verse 14, one should do so in context.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

So the church nor man is not justified nor righteous when sharing faith in God to provide to the poor if the church nor that believer cares to lead by example to the poor by meeting the immediate needs of the poor with what God had provided for them.

It is the church's faith in God to provide that is dead in the eyes of the poor for why the church's faith in God to provide to the poor, will not profit the poor nor save the poor from the elements or starvation when the church does not care to lead by example.

James was never talking about the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation as if needing works, because James was rebuking the church for getting out of helping the poor by callously sharing their faith in God to provide to the poor without meeting the immediate needs of the poor that were perishing.

Paul testifies to faith in Jesus Christ in salvation which is without works for why believing in Jesus Christ for salvation is the Good News for man.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

James 1:1 KJV
[1] James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

 

[marks]

Matthew 5:28-30 KJV
28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29) And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30) And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Do you see a difference between Isreal under the Sinai covenant of Law, and New Covenant Christians? If so, how would you characterize that difference?

You are asking how I nullify this passage, essentially, because you see it in governance over Christians today, this is correct?

Simple answers are terrific!

:)

I, for instance, do see a difference, that difference being under the OT Law, salvation is through keeping the law in faith that God is real, and honest, and gives a judicial justification. In the present time, salvation is though that same judicial justification when we believe in Jesus, receiving Him, but He also gives us material justification through death and resurrection, rendering us not only judicially righteous, but righteous by nature as well. Recreated.

Much love!

 

[marks]

George Sodini is a real person who turned OSAS into a license to sin. You seemed to before agree with his belief by posting verses that would support his viewpoint. It seems like you want to distance yourself from him or his belief now?

I have nothing to do with him, or what you perceive about, or your opinions of, his beliefs. Do you even actually know for a fact the man was reborn? How can you even know that?

You want to derail a Biblical converstation to focus on some guy you read about in the news or whatever. Not interested.

And something else. Sin is sin is sin. All sin is unrighteousness. All sin is the work of the flesh. You want to point to a mass murderer, but where is the difference between him and you or I? Who is it that does not commit any sin? You? Not me! I wouldn't dream of saying I don't sin, even with a completely clean conscience, because we simply are not fit judges.

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Only Jesus is the fit judge of us.

Romans 8:31-34 KJV
31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

"Who ever lives to make intercession for us."

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you see a difference between Isreal under the Sinai covenant of Law, and New Covenant Christians? If so, how would you characterize that difference?

You are asking how I nullify this passage, essentially, because you see it in governance over Christians today, this is correct?

Simple answers are terrific!

:)

I, for instance, do see a difference, that difference being under the OT Law, salvation is through keeping the law in faith that God is real, and honest, and gives a judicial justification. In the present time, salvation is though that same judicial justification when we believe in Jesus, receiving Him, but He also gives us material justification through death and resurrection, rendering us not only judicially righteous, but righteous by nature as well. Recreated.

Much love!

I will have to give you a reply on this at a later time when time allows so as not leave any stone unturned. The thing you may not be aware of is that there are real testimonies of people falling into sin because of the OSAS belief.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony
Out Of Darkness NO Eternal Security Christian Testimony

Suicide, Mass Murder, and OSAS:
(George Sodini):
GEORGE SODINI
​

Also, to tell a crowd that they are saved by Jesus and nothing else CAN lead a person to think the wrong thing if you say nothing else after that (Whether you want that to happen or not). How so? Think. Does not "sin" fall under the "nothing else”?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have nothing to do with him, or what you perceive about, or your opinions of, his beliefs. Do you even actually know for a fact the man was reborn? How can you even know that?

You want to derail a Biblical converstation to focus on some guy you read about in the news or whatever. Not interested.

And something else. Sin is sin is sin. All sin is unrighteousness. All sin is the work of the flesh. You want to point to a mass murderer, but where is the difference between him and you or I? Who is it that does not commit any sin? You? Not me! I wouldn't dream of saying I don't sin, even with a completely clean conscience, because we simply are not fit judges.

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Only Jesus is the fit judge of us.

Romans 8:31-34 KJV
31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

"Who ever lives to make intercession for us."

Much love!

But you appeared to agree with his belief by the verses you gave me before defending that a believer is not condemned.

 

[marks]

I will have to give you a reply on this at a later time when time allows so as not leave any stone unturned. The thing you may not be aware of is that there are real testimonies of people falling into sin because of the OSAS belief.

If you want to get back to Scripture, let me know.

People misuse all sorts of things, wrongly blame all sorts of things, we can start fishing around for all sorts of . . . anecdotal stories.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

According to . . . the Bible . . . the certain hope of our salvation is the very thing that . . . the Bible . . . cites towards our purifying ourselves, even as Jesus is pure.

So while you want to trot out stories to prove this is not so, it happens to be the direct teaching of . . . the Bible . . . so you can guess which I'm going with.

The certain expectation . . . security in your salvation . . . he who has this hope purifies himself, even as He is pure.

So if in fact someone falls into sin, it's NOT because of a certain hope of salvation. Maybe according to some people, but not according to God, which makes it just an excuse, and a poor one at that!

Much love!

 

[marks]

But you appeared to agree with his belief by the verses you gave me before defending that a believer is not condemned.

Romans 8:31-34 KJV
31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

So if you don't like what this passage is saying, that's between you and God, not me. And if you think it means something other than what it says, what would that be? And why wouldn't we accept exactly what it does say?

Who will condemn the elect of God? Who? According to the Bible. Not me. The Bible.

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, NO problem at all = Will God:

Allow THESE salvation/entrance into His kingdom?:

Luk 7:29 "And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
Luk 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."?

I believe Luke 7:29-30 is 100% true, but the issue again is dealing with time. If I lived during John's time, I would have been water baptized according to John’s baptism (Side Note: I have been watered baptized in a church). Anyways, according to the Bible: Water baptism appeared with John the baptist, and this was changed and slowly phased out by the apostle Paul with the baptism for the great commission being Spirit baptism (and not water baptism). Here is my biblical case that...

Spirit Baptism is the one and only baptism in effect today.

Scriptural Support:

#1. Ephesians 4:5 says that there is “one baptism.”

#2. 1 Corinthians 12:13 says, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

#3. The prophecy and fulfilment of the new baptism:

Jesus stated:
“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.” (Acts of the Apostles 1:5). ......... .​

Note: This baptism of the Holy Ghost took place at Pentecost for the Jewish believers (See: Acts of the Apostles 2), and it happened for the Gentiles with Cornelius and his family in Acts 10 (Also see: Acts 11 about Peter’s recollection of this event; For Peter recalls the words of Jesus in Acts of the Apostles 1:5 when Cornelius and his family experienced the baptism of the Spirit after the gospel was preached to them) (Note: In Acts 10-11: Peter was just first learning of the baptism of the Spirit and he did not know yet that water baptism had ended at this point in his life).

#4. 1 Corinthians 1:17 says, “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.” If water baptism is what places us into Christ, then why is Paul teaching against it here? This must mean that the true baptism is Spirit baptism and that the baptism that Paul was not sent by Christ to put forth was water baptism. For the apostles were commissioned to baptize in Matthew 28:19, and yet, Paul was an apostle.

#5. Acts of the Apostles 18:24-26 says, And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.” In short, Aquila and Priscilla (who were taught by Paul) expounded the Word of God more perfectly unto Apollos because he only knew of John’s baptism of water. Apollos needed to learn of Spirit baptism (Which is the true New Covenant way of being baptized).

#6. Acts of the Apostles 19:1-7 says, “And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve.”
In other words, the believers at Ephesus only knew of John’s baptism of water, and they were not aware of the Holy Ghost. So Paul baptized them into the Holy Ghost by laying his hands on them. So they received the baptism of the Spirit.

#7. Mark 16:16 says: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
If one believes Ephesians 2:8-9, and they also believe that water baptism is for salvation: Well, this is a problem if they are claiming that believers are initially and foundationally saved by God’s grace and not of works according to Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, and Titus 3:5. For if baptism is a work we must do to be saved by God’s grace or as a part of the gospel, then it nullifies the first aspect in the salvation process in being saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ without the deeds of the Law. Thus, when Jesus refers to baptism here to be saved he is referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Which takes place every time a person accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior). The Holy Spirit is a part of our salvation (See: Romans 8:9, Romans 8:11, and Romans 8:13; Ephesians 1:13-14).
​

(Continued in my next post):

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, NO problem at all = Will God:

Allow THESE salvation/entrance into His kingdom?:

Luk 7:29 "And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
Luk 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."?

(Continued from my last post):

#8. The Holy Spirit is compared to water;

Water baptism (an OT ritual) is a picture that points ahead to the true baptism (i.e. Spirit baptism). Jesus told the woman at the well, “Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.” (John 4:13-14).

So what is this living water that Jesus talks about that is like a well of water springing up into everlasting life? John 7 gives us the answer. “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given ; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)“ (John 7:38-39). In other words, the Holy Spirit is the living waters that can live in a person that Jesus was talking about with the woman at the well.

#9. Hebrews 9:10 says, “Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” The word “washings” is the Greek word “baptismos” (βαπτισμός) (Check out here for the Strong’s definition). In other words, Hebrews 9:10 is saying that diverse baptisms (washings) were imposed on believers until the time of reformation. Meaning, water baptism will give way or pass away until the time of reformation (Which means that Spirit baptism is now the one and only true baptism for today).

#10. 1 Corinthians 6:11 says, “And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.” This shows that when we accept Jesus as our Savior, our hearts our WASHED (like with water) and sanctified by the Spirit of God (i.e. the Holy Spirit). We are born again, and we have a new heart with new desires. We have become baptized by the Spirit.

#11. Ezekiel 36:25-27 says,

[25] Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. [26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.” This clean water that is sprinkled upon them so that they would be clean is referring to the immersion (baptism) of the Holy Spirit when and when we receive a new heart with new desires (become born again). This water is not water baptism but Spirit baptism that transforms a person’s life.

#12. Ephesians 1:13 says,
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,” This lets us know that by hearing the gospel, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. This is being immersed into the Spirit for the first time sort of like with Cornelius and his household (Note: This does not mean we will speak in tongues, but we will have a change of the heart and a peace like never. before).

#13. Certain baptist groups believe that the word “baptize” in 1 Corinthians 12:13 refers to water baptism and not Spirit baptism. This suggests that they are building the church. However, in Matthew 16:18, we learn that Jesus Christ said, "I WILL build my church." The future tense of the verb suggests that the construction of the church had not yet started when Christ said these words. Our Lord did not say, "I have built my church." He also did not say, "I am building my church." No, the construction of the church had not yet started and thus the church was yet future. At the time Jesus spoke the words of Matthew 16:18 the church had not yet begun. This suggests that Spirit baptism (done by Christ) is the new form of baptism for the New Covenant.
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#14. Jesus did not water baptize anyone. Some Christian groups teach that water baptism is for salvation. Yet, if this is the case, then they would be saying that Jesus did not save anyone because He did not water baptize. However, we know that Jesus does baptize, but it is Spirit baptism and not water baptism. For John the Baptist said, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:” (Matthew 3:11). ​

Side Note:

Please keep in mind that water baptism (Although required during John the Baptist's time) never really saved in regards to putting away the filth of the flesh (sin) but it saved as a part of answering the call in having a good conscience towards God (See 1 Peter 3:21). What was salvific was the confessing one's sins to the Lord when a person was being water baptized. The water aspect in baptism does not save. Granted, today, I would not stop a believer if they felt convicted by God to be water baptized as long as they believed with all their heart on the matter. But water baptism is merely the picture or symbol of the greater reality of Spirit baptism which takes place for every believer who genuinely is sorry over their sins with a godly sorrow (Whereby they intend to forsake those sins) and they seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ over their past life of sin, and then God transforms their heart and gives them a love, joy, and peace like they have never known before. Most today are out to justify sin and or think that Jesus' is a free ticket to Heaven whereby they can live however they like (Because they are Once Saved Always Saved). But things don't work like that. We are told to follow after holiness without which no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

For there hasn't been a verse (that supposedly proves Eternal Security) that I was not able to refute using Scripture.

Interestingly, I've had the exact opposite experience.

Sorry, no offense, but I don't believe your experience was the same as mine. I believe a person has to distort the plain reading of the Scriptures in order to make a “sin and still be saved” type belief work. Note: For you said a believer is saved if they still sin (Which is confirmed in your very next statement) and thus means you are not in agreement with truly living holy according to the Bible.

Every passage I've seen presented to show that the spirit children of God may yet die condemned in sin, I've found none of them actually teach that.

How about actually showing how Matthew 5:28-30 has changed in the New Testament. I can show you how water baptism by John the Baptist has changed according to Scripture (See post #429, and post #430). Yet, you cannot do that with Matthew 5:28-30.

Paul did not teach Perpetual Belief Alone-ism for Salvation:

Many Christians today falsely believe that Paul taught believers to perpetually believe in Jesus alone over one's whole life despite whether they live in sin, and yet they are forever saved.

But this is not true. For Paul also says...

1. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4). (Note: James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble).
2. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel,...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).
3. “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
4. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).
5. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
6. “But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
7. “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16). (Note: To know God is a part of salvation (See: John 17:3, and 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 5:12).
   
8. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
9. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).
10. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
11. “...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).
12. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).
13. “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).
14. “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4).
15. “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.” (Ephesians 5:3-7).
16. “Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). This plays in nicely with this verse: And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2 Timothy 2:19).
    
17. “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:14).
18. “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:11-12).

Side Note:

Yes, Paul taught that we must believe in Jesus and His grace, and in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (without works), but this is Temporal Belief Alone-ism in being saved Initially by God (Compare Ephesians 2:8-9 with Ephesians 2:1). For Paul did not teach “Perpetual Belief Alone-ism with the exclusion of living holy.” A believer is first saved by God's grace without works and then they enter the 2nd aspect of salvation (Which is the Sanctification of the Spirit to live a holy life that would later include good works, putting away sin, etcetera). Grace and mercy becomes a believer's foundation because if a believer messes up, they confess of their sins to Jesus Christ by way of prayer to have that sin forgiven or redeemed (See: 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9, Hebrews 4:16). Grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV

1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

And then you have one's like this, above, that if the born again actually were to die again, then this passage would cease to be true. And that won't happen.

Colossians is not really a book in the Bible that truly challenges your belief here. For it is obvious that the book of Colossians is used by believers who want to defend how they can sin and still be saved on some level. For Colossians is usually a book that is used by Eternal Security proponents because it is a short 4 chapter book that focuses more on God's grace. Eternal Security Proponents would bring up verses like Colossians 3:1-4 because they know that Bible believing Conditional Salvationists like myself might reply in return by quoting Colossians 3:5-7, and then the OSAS Proponent would return with an “Ah ha, Gotcha you!” type moment by quoting Colossians 3:8 (Which appears to sound like Paul is saying they have more sins to deal with and yet he claims they are saved in Colossians 3:1-4 - when this is not the case). As I already pointed out before within my previous post (to you), Paul is clearly against teaching you can “sin and still be saved.” So this kind of interpretive reading is bogus for Colossians 3:8. In fact, keep reading and it says in Colossians 3:9 the following words:

Colossians 3:9

“...seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;”

Paul is commending the Colossian believers that they have also now put off all the following things in Colossians 3:8. Yet, there appears to be some in the church at Colosse who may be lying (verse 9). Paul is encouraging some of them to not lie to one another (Colossians 3:9) seeing that they all have previously put off the old man and his deeds at a different point in time in the past.

This has to be the interpretative view because Paul says elsewhere:

#1.“Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.” (Romans 6:1-2).

#2. “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

#3. “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

#4. “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).​

Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?

So Colossians 3:9 is referring to how some in the church at Colosse need to put off lying to one another. Why? Because Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. Paul is writing to those who are faithful and not unfaithful.

For in the beginning of the book to the Colossians, we read:

“To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse:” (Colossians 1:2).

One is not being faithful to God or the Lord if they are lying.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV

1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.


And then you have one's like this, above, that if the born again actually were to die again, then this passage would cease to be true. And that won't happen.

Also, notice the IF word in verse 1 within this passage. It is saying that… “IF ye (you-all) then be risen with Christ”… and then it continues to go into the instructions and the promises that your life is hid with Christ in God (verse 3) and our meeting the Lord in person when He appears and we shall be with Him in glory (verse 4).

How do we know if a believer has been risen with Christ according to the Bible?

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Romans 6:3-7).​

This passage is saying that if we are planted in the likeness of his death (Galatians 5:24) (Matthew 16:24) (Matthew 16:26) we should also be in the likeness of his resurrection. Meaning, we should walk in newness of life. In other words, we should be living holy and not justifying sin. This is the type of believer whose life is hid in Christ with God and who will be in glory with Christ when He appears.

So the believer who walks in newness of life is the kind of believer who is truly risen with Christ (Colossians 3:1) and has the promises found in Colossians 3:3, and Colossians 3:4. The condition is not belief alone in Jesus as you falsely presume. The condition is being risen with Christ and such a condition is described for us in Romans 6:3-7.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And this one,

1 John 3:1-3 KJV

1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

But if we are to believe what these passages tell us, then where is the place for the eternal death of God's redeemed? When would they die, if this is true:

Well, I explained Colossians 3:1-4 in my previous post and it does not say you can continue in sin so that grace may abound. “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

But what about 1 John 3:1-3? Does it teach you can “sin and still be saved”? Is that what it is saying? No, most certainly not. Verse 1 says the world does not know him (Jesus).

1 John 2:3-5 KJV

[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.​

So this is the difference between us and the world.

1 John 5:19

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness”​

What about our being called sons of God in 1 John 3:1-2? Does that automatically mean we are forever saved without any chance of losing salvation? Again, no.

Matthew 8:12 says: “But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”​

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:53 says,

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."​

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" (John 1:12).

The phrase "sons of God" is a reference to angels in the Old Testament. While the New Testament primarily uses the phrase "sons of God" in reference to believers. In this case in John 1:12, it is talking about angels. For the Lord gave us power to become angels (by the power of His resurrection in the Rapture) to those who believe on his name. Angels are immortal.

"Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." (Luke 20:36).​

So immortality is not exclusive to just our final state in the flesh and blood bodily resurrection. We will first have new immortal spirit bodies like that of angels in the Rapture (or catching up). Angels are spiritual beings. Angels have spirit bodies. For Paul says there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body (See 1 Corinthians 15:44).

So what’s my point on this? Well, my point is that if we shall be like the angels someday in the Rapture or Catching up, then we must realize that the sons of God (angels) were not immune to falling away. For Lucifer himself is an angel (son of God) who fell away from God’s kingdom. So just because we are called “sons of God” does not mean we are forever forced into God’s Kingdom no matter what we believe or do after we are saved by God’s grace.

 

[marks]

This has to be the interpretative view because Paul says elsewhere:

That sounds like your way of saying, Don't believe the actual statements made by Paul, I'm telling you, don't! Because the way I understand this other passage contradicts that. So since I'm right about what I say this all means, don't believe what Paul says there in Colossians . . .

Do you see how that works, and why I'm going to accept Paul over you?

Much love!

 

[marks]

So what’s my point on this? Well, my point is that if we shall be like the angels someday in the Rapture or Catching up, then we must realize that the sons of God (angels) were not immune to falling away. For Lucifer himself is an angel (son of God) who fell away from God’s kingdom. So just because we are called “sons of God” does not mean we are forever forced into God’s Kingdom no matter what we believe or do after we are saved by God’s grace.

It sounds to me that you don't understand very well about our unity with God, in Christ Jesus, by the Holy Spirit. And that for some reason you do not receive the promises of Scripture.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So the believer who walks in newness of life is the kind of believer who is truly risen with Christ (Colossians 3:1) and has the promises found in Colossians 3:3, and Colossians 3:4. The condition is not belief alone in Jesus as you falsely presume. The condition is being risen with Christ and such a condition is described for us in Romans 6:3-7.

And if you cannot refrain from misrepresenting things I'm quite clear about, there's no more discussion to be had.

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That sounds like your way of saying, Don't believe the actual statements made by Paul, I'm telling you, don't! Because the way I understand this other passage contradicts that. So since I'm right about what I say this all means, don't believe what Paul says there in Colossians . . .

Do you see how that works, and why I'm going to accept Paul over you?

Much love!

This really is not a refutation of anything I said with Scripture. I believe what Paul states is 100% true. But I don't believe that is the case for you. For you did not really address or explain my verse points below by the apostle Paul that refutes your sin and still be saved belief.

For Paul says...

1. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4). (Note: James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble).
2. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel,...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).
3. “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
4. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).
5. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
6. “But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
7. “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16). (Note: To know God is a part of salvation (See: John 17:3, and 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 5:12).
   
8. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
9. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).
10. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
11. “...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).
12. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).
13. “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).
14. “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4).
15. “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.” (Ephesians 5:3-7).
16. “Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). This plays in nicely with this verse: And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2 Timothy 2:19).
    
17. “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:14).
18. “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:11-12).

These things in Scripture by the apostle Paul would not exist if things are as you say. For when I read these above verses by Paul, I don't get the impression of a sin and still be saved type belief or OSAS. So the ball is in your court to explain things here.

 

[marks]

I believe what Paul states is 100% true.

I guess we're going to circle around this.

Paul is encouraging some of them to not lie to one another (Colossians 3:9) seeing that they all have previously put off the old man and his deeds at a different point in time in the past.

This has to be the interpretative view because Paul says elsewhere:

What did you mean here?

Much love!

 

[marks]

1. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4). (Note: James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble).
2. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel,...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).
3. “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
4. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).
5. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
6. “But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
7. “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16). (Note: To know God is a part of salvation (See: John 17:3, and 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 5:12).
   
8. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
9. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).
10. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
11. “...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).
12. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).
13. “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).
14. “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4).
15. “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.” (Ephesians 5:3-7).
16. “Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). This plays in nicely with this verse: And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2 Timothy 2:19).
    
17. “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:14).
18. “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:11-12).

These things in Scripture by the apostle Paul would not exist if things are as you say. For when I read these above verses by Paul, I don't get the impression of a sin and still be saved type belief or OSAS. So the ball is in your court to explain things here.

These are all a bunch of snippets removed from their contexts, and they don't say what you claim.

Much love!