James Was Not Talking about Faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation

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James 1:1 KJV
[1] James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James 2:1 says:
“My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.”

Also, this belief sounds like MAD. Mid Acts Dispensationalism (MAD) basically says that Paul wrote only to the Gentile believers, and Peter to only the Jews.

However, Peter says that his beloved brother Paul had also had written unto of whom Peter was writing to, as well.

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:15-16).

In addition, ...

What was Paul's opinion regarding the teachings or words of Jesus Christ?

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
(Colossians 2:8).

“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.”
(1 Timothy 6:3-5).

So Jesus and Paul taught the same gospel or teaching.

In fact, Mid Acts Dispensationalism is nothing new. Back in Paul's day, people were also wrongfully following Paul, too. For Paul said that there should not be divisions between Christ and what he taught (1 Corinthians 1:10-13); For Paul said, "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" (1 Corinthians 1:13).​

 

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Romans 8:29-39 KJV
29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Clearly stated, in context, let me ask you . . . who is it that will condemn you? Anyone? Who exactly? God Who justifies, Christ Who intercedes, who will lay a charge to God's elect?

Much love!

 

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You do know that James was referring to Abraham's faith in God to provide, right?

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

That is the faith James was referring to that requires works; as in leading by example; not faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works.

James was rebuking the church for sharing their faith in God to provide to the poor without meeting their immediate needs of those poor that were about to perish from the element and starvation from the bounty collected at church service. It is the church's faith in God to provide being issued to the poor that will not profit the poor nor save the poor, seeing the church's faith is dead without leading by example.

It is understandable for why many read James verses out of context thinking it applies also to the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, but no. When reading verse 14, one should do so in context.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

So the church nor man is not justified nor righteous when sharing faith in God to provide to the poor if the church nor that believer cares to lead by example to the poor by meeting the immediate needs of the poor with what God had provided for them.

It is the church's faith in God to provide that is dead in the eyes of the poor for why the church's faith in God to provide to the poor, will not profit the poor nor save the poor from the elements or starvation when the church does not care to lead by example.

James was never talking about the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation as if needing works, because James was rebuking the church for getting out of helping the poor by callously sharing their faith in God to provide to the poor without meeting the immediate needs of the poor that were perishing.

Paul testifies to faith in Jesus Christ in salvation which is without works for why believing in Jesus Christ for salvation is the Good News for man.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

If you were to skip back to the previous chapter, James is ALSO teaching obedience as a part of the salvation process (Note: What is not mentioned by James is that this obedience would only be possible AFTER we are first saved by God's grace).

James 1:12
“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.”

James 1:21
“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.”

In other words, you have to explain away these verses as well. It's not surprising really. Many have tried to undo the words of James because they hold to a Modern Day Popularity Christianity that says you can sin and still be saved on some level all because we have a belief alone on Jesus.

Luther called the book of James as an epistle of straw. Surely Luther knew what James was saying and he simply did not like what he wrote.

 

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For when I read these above verses by Paul, I don't get the impression of a sin and still be saved type belief or OSAS.

Am I correct in surmising that you see yourself as no longer sinning?

Much love!

 

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Romans 8:29-39 KJV
29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Clearly stated, in context, let me ask you . . . who is it that will condemn you? Anyone? Who exactly? God Who justifies, Christ Who intercedes, who will lay a charge to God's elect?

Much love!

Much love!

You left out the key verse that refutes your belief here. You started in verse 29, but you need to carefully read verse 28.

Romans 8:28
“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

All things work together for good to those who love God.
Jesus is God, yes?
How does Jesus define how we are to love Him (Who is God)?

John 14:15
“If ye love me, keep my commandments.”

Paul says,
“If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.”
(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Anathema means accursed.
So if we are not loving the Lord by obeying Him, we are accursed.
This makes sense because both Jesus and His followers warned against how willful sin (or justified sin) can destroy our souls and separate us from God.

 

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Am I correct in surmising that you see yourself as no longer sinning?

Much love!

It's not about me. It's about what the Scriptures say. If I told you I was a saint, you would not believe me. If I told you I have stumbled in the past, you would go... “Ah ha!” See... nobody can walk perfectly. The Bible is true regardless of any one person's life. My life is not the standard. The Bible is the standard. We have to accept what the Bible says regardless of any one person. Many Christians today falsely teach the false Dual Nature doctrine that says that a Christians sins in his flesh, but he does not sin in his spirit because Jesus forgave all his future sins in the spirit. However, 2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

 

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These are all a bunch of snippets removed from their contexts, and they don't say what you claim.

Much love!

Just your saying so does not prove that such is the case. You are making broad brush stroke statement that does not really explain what those verses really mean.

 

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What did you mean here?

Much love!

I am saying that Paul is telling the Colossian believers that they put off the old man's deeds (sin) in Colossians 3:9 as Paul said. Putting away sin was at one point in time what all the Colossian believers did. In Colossians 3:9: Paul must also be implying that some among the Colossian body of believers are lying and not all of them. Paul is implying for those in the body of this church to repent if such is the case. For Paul says we are to mortify (put to death) your members (those believers among you) who are into fornication, uncleanness, covetousness, etcetera because the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.

“Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:” (Colossians 3:5-6).​

Note: Paul is not saying to physically kill these church members but to kick them out like he suggested to do with the man who committed fornication in 1 Corinthians 5. For the man in 1 Corinthians 5 was to be banished from fellowship unless of course they sought forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and stopped their sinful ways.

 

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Just your saying so does not prove that such is the case. You are making broad brush stroke statement that is not really explain what those verses really mean.

Pick one.

You post a wall of snippets, I'm supposed to set each one in order for you? Restore the contexts, and really look at the verses. You'll see for yourself what they do and don't say, and don't stop there, but make sure you cover all the places which tell us the certainty of our salvation.

You can't take half the picture, and reduce it to some sound bites, and come to correct conclusions.

You have to reconcile how the fact that no Liar inherits the kingdom, while at the same time, all who are raised with Christ will appear with Him in glory, and that those who are raised with Christ are nonetheless instructed to mortify the body's members.

Colossians 3:1-6 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
5) Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6) For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Why would you need to be admonished this way?

Much love!

 

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Pick one.

You post a wall of snippets, I'm supposed to set each one in order for you? Restore the contexts, and really look at the verses. You'll see for yourself what they do and don't say, and don't stop there, but make sure you cover all the places which tell us the certainty of our salvation.

You can't take half the picture, and reduce it to some sound bites, and come to correct conclusions.

You have to reconcile how the fact that no Liar inherits the kingdom, while at the same time, all who are raised with Christ will appear with Him in glory, and that those who are raised with Christ are nonetheless instructed to mortify the body's members.

Colossians 3:1-6 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
5) Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6) For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Why would you need to be admonished this way?

Much love!

You failed to recognize the conditions of being raised with Christ according to Romans 6 that I gave you. Being raised with Christ is living a life that is characterized by walking in newness of life.

 

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Pick one.

You post a wall of snippets, I'm supposed to set each one in order for you?

You can take them one at a time. They are not going anywhere. If it takes you a month to explain then... so be it. Are you not here to help others see the truth? You can deal with each one as time permits. If you know the Bible, they should be a breeze to explain, right?

 

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So if we are not loving the Lord by obeying Him, we are accursed.

OK, so how does your assertion here relate to these passages?

Romans 8:33-39 KJV
33) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Are you one of God's elect?

Much love!

 

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You failed to recognize the conditions of being raised with Christ according to Romans 6 that I gave you. Being raised with Christ is living a life that is characterized by walking in newness of life.

You didn't pick one. And you didn't try to reconcile.

Oh well!

Much love!

 

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OK, so how does your assertion here relate to these passages?

Romans 8:33-39 KJV
33) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Are you one of God's elect?

Much love!

Again, this promise only applies to those who love God according to the context of verse 28.
Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
Jesus is God and so we are to love Jesus (God) by keeping His commandments.
In other words, in order for the promise you love to quote it only applies if you obey Jesus.

 

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You didn't pick one. And you didn't try to reconcile.

Oh well!

Much love!

I am not into playing games or playing to your own rules. I believe if a person truly knows the Bible, I believe they will take the time to explain the verses they know and not use excuses or rules to not do so. Take all the time you need to explain each one. Take a month to explain each one. I don't care how long it takes. Just do it. No excuses. But we both know the real reason why you will not deal with these verses. It's because in reality they don't really teach what you want them to say. That is why you are avoiding them. Take the first one to start and then move on to the next, and then the next, etcetera.

 

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OK, so how does your assertion here relate to these passages?

Romans 8:33-39 KJV
33) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Are you one of God's elect?

Much love!

There are two things on that list that is not mentioned.

#1. You, (and):
#2. Your sin.

 

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You can take them one at a time. They are not going anywhere. If it takes you a month to explain then... so be it. Are you not here to help others see the truth? You can deal with each one as time permits. If you know the Bible, they should be a breeze to explain, right?

I've done that sometimes.

This was one of the ways I've put myself to the test on this. I've spent literally several years searching out ever passage anyone uses to support the notion that those who have been born of God may yet spiritually die again, and I've never found a single on that actually says that. I've found a great many that say otherwise.

Many of those I've found from studying passages on people's lists of verses. Quite a few of them actually refute that view.

And it is kind of old hat for me, because I have in fact studied these, as I scan over your lists, yes, I'm pretty sure I've studied them all in this regard.

And there are so many plainly stated passages that say otherwise that were there truly a verse that teaches the born again can die again, then we'd really have a problem.

Meanwhile, I'll leave you with ONE passage, and one question.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Can we in fact KNOW that when we see Him, we will be like Him?

Much love!

 

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Being raised with Christ is living a life that is characterized by walking in newness of life.

Let's return to this. This to you means sinlessness, and therefore, the correct thing to understand is that you no longer commit sin, correct? Or is this all purely academic theory to you, but without any real application?

Much love!

 

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I've done that sometimes.

This was one of the ways I've put myself to the test on this. I've spent literally several years searching out ever passage anyone uses to support the notion that those who have been born of God may yet spiritually die again, and I've never found a single on that actually says that. I've found a great many that say otherwise.

I believe this is only the case because you want a sin and still be saved type belief to be true and not because that is what the Bible plainly states. Again, you have not given any sufficient rebuttals to what I said so far. You are still ignoring my biblical points.

And it is kind of old hat for me, because I have in fact studied these, as I scan over your lists, yes, I'm pretty sure I've studied them all in this regard.

For me, as well. However, I have not stopped debating this topic for approximately 10 years.

And there are so many plainly stated passages that say otherwise that were there truly a verse that teaches the born again can die again, then we'd really have a problem.

This is false thinking. Just look at real life. While a person cannot be unborn, they can die.
People can also die and come back to life, too. We see this happen in real life.
The Bible talks about this as well in James 5:19-20 and Luke 15:11-32.

Meanwhile, I'll leave you with ONE passage, and one question.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Can we in fact KNOW that when we see Him, we will be like Him?

Much love!

I have already explained this passage to you, but you did not get it. This promise only applies to those who are faithful to the Lord Jesus. I told you before that the world does not know Jesus. How do we know Jesus? Again, see 1 John 2:3-4. The whole world lies in wickedness (1 John 5:19).

 

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Let's return to this. This to you means sinlessness, and therefore, the correct thing to understand is that you no longer commit sin, correct? Or is this all purely academic theory to you, but without any real application?

Much love!

I believe in Progressive Sanctification by the Holy Spirit. Believers are to live holy but they cannot justify sin like the mindset in the OSAS and Sin and Still Be Saved (Free Will Baptist) Camps. Believers should not to set out with the mindset that they are fallen and they will sin again as if it is a 100% fact that they must do so. To do so is to justify sin and evil in God's name. God is good and He is not bad. He will not condone your sin. Believers must fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life (1 Timothy 6:12). We are to resist temptation and lay hold on the crown of life (James 1:12).