James Was Not Talking about Faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation

[Bible Highlighter]

Repeating what I already explained to you.



You already tried this argument.
I already told you it does not work, because babies are not obeying the gospel.
Babies do not have to believe, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Babies are not saved by faith alone.
Babies are saved without faith.
Babies are saved without obedience.
Therefore babies are saved without the gospel.
They are saved because they were never separated from God because of sin.
Adults need the gospel because we are sinners.
Our sins separate us from God, Isaiah 59:2.

So, your reasoning is wrong.
Babies have never been separated from God.
Babies are without sin.
Babies do not need saving. They are already saved.



It is irrelevant how other religions define works.
We only obey the law of Christ.
We let Jesus' gospel define works that are involved in salvation. Not jews!



As a already taught you, by the example of the thief on the cross,
No one is saved by Jesus without an obedient desire to serve Him.

Look at the story of the women caught in adultery,
John 8:1-11

Jesus knew her heart.
What did He say to her?
Go and sin no more.

Do you think Jesus would have forgave her if her heart was that she had no intention of changing her sinfull ways?

It is the same with all the stories of individuals Jesus forgave before His gospel was in force, Hebrews 9:16-17.

They all had to give their lives to Christ, obedience.
No one was saved by just believing Jesus but not repenting of sins.



Wrong! That's your imagination that he was saved without Godly sorrow without an obedient heart, for his sins against God.
You have zero scripture to support he was not obedient prior to becoming a thief. You just speculate/assume he was not baptized as all Jews were commanded, Mark 1:4-5.

I never said he was baptized!
I said he could have been baptized by John.
You speculate he was not.
I'm not guessing, you are.
I'm saying he could or could not have been baptized.
Your position cannot be backed up with book, chapter and verse.
Also, these examples you give for supposed faith only salvation are all conveniently BEFORE Jesus' gospel was in force!
No one will be saved the way the thief was saved. Not you, not anybody!
Bad argument.




Wrong, Jesus was very plain what the gospel is, Mark:16:15-16.
There is only one gospel says Paul, Ephesians 4:5.
Paul taught 1Corinthians 15:1-4
Paul taught about his own obedience to Jesus' gospel in chapter 9 of Acts. And Acts 22:16.
Paul taught, belief, repentance, confession and water immersion in the book of Romans.
Jesus taught the gospel includes immersion to be saved in Mark 16:15-16.

They way you cherry pick bible verses like 1Corinthians 15:1-4 shows you do not understand basic Bible study principles.

To cherry pick verses and say that's the gospel in its entirety like 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Is the cause for all the confusion on what saves us.

Faith alone advocates say 1Corinthians 15:1-4 is the gospel in its entirety.
That's cherry picking!

No one reads an instruction manual this way!
Just ignore this part but include this part.

Yet, this is exactly the way religious folks interpret the Bible.
Its nonsense.

You say Paul taught faith alone in 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Then he contradicts himself in Romans 10:9-10 , when he teaches confession with the mouth is made unto salvation.

Here is a rule you must learn to understand the scriptures.

Necessary inference.

If Paul teaches you must have faith to be saved, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Then it must be inferred that faith is included with other verses that do not directly mention faith,
Example, Paul commands everyone to repent, Acts 17:30-31.
To understand the Bible, it must be inferred that Faith is also a requirement to be saved.

If I interpret, the scriptures the way you do, then I can say,
"Paul says to repent in Acts 17:30, he dose not mention belief!"
Therefore I don't have to believe to be saved!

That is what you are doing with 1Corinthians 15:1-4!
Stop cherry picking out faith verses.
That is not how you understand an instruction manual.



Wrong, I already taught you, baptismos is NEVER USED in Jesus' gospel!
Every baptism done in the name of Jesus Christ, is baptizo. Not baptismos.
There is no more baptismos in Jesus'new covenant!



Wrong! Not one baptism done in the name of Jesus Christ was baptismos!
Acts 2:38 was the first baptism done under Jesus'new gospel.
It was Baptizo!

1Corinthians 1:17
I already taught you, that water immersion was always taught and practised by Paul, when he taught the gospel.

If water immersion was not in Paul's gospel then why did he baptize the Corinthian church?

Paul said he was sent to PREACH the gospel not to be the baptizer.
Paul's gospel includes water immersion to be saved.
Paul never taught Spirit baptism as you wrongly teach.

Paul teaches water immersion into Christ death, we are water baptized with Christ and raised from the watery grave of baptism to new life with Him, born again,
Romans 6:1-6.

Paul teaches in Romans 6 that water baptism is a re-enactment of Christ's death on the cross.
In baptism is where we are raised with in likeness of His ressurection.

1Corinthians 1:1-17.
The Corinthians were abusing baptism. Saying their baptism was not by the authority of Jesus Christ but by men like Paul or Apollos or Cephas, etc.
That is why Paul said,
Verse 14-15
I thank God I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius.

Lest anyone should say, that I had baptized in my own name.

I was merely responding to show others who may come across this forum looking for the truth will see the error of your thinking here, my friend. I did not reply actually thinking you would change your mind at this particular point in time. Only God can show you the truth on this matter if you are open to it and you actually sincerely pray about it. Most are either fine with Belief Alone-ism (Which is a justification of sin) or others are fine with the Belief that says: “No grace ever unless there is a work or works” (Which is Man-made Self Righteousness).

 

[bbyrd009]

Do you believe in Conditional Salvation or Unconditional Salvation?

i believe we currently have different definitions of “salvation”

Are you Free Will Baptist whereby a person can decide to not follow Jesus later on, and yet on the other hand sin does not separate a believer from God?

lol who would answer “yes” to that?

I just ask these questions to figure out what you believe and so as to direct our conversation if you are truly interested in engaging on this kind of discussion

i had considered “death, more abundantly” to be a valid description of most “Christian” believers’ walk, that succinctly described the desire for immortality and “afterlife;” in my ignorance, i even initially thought i had coined the term.

But i have seen that iron sharpens iron is also a manifestation of that belief, and wadr i am no longer able to hold up my end of a conversation of that nature; can one really “discuss” anything with a gnostic? Not to say that one cannot learn something from them, but really how much sharpening of one’s countenance can a thoughtful person abide?

And believe me, there are still a few here who might tell you that i was a pro at that, “telling the truth;” Only i came to realize that every time one tells the truth, they are also lying, in a weird way, and that this dynamic is also embedded in the Bible; one might have the insight of an angel, but if no one will hear it, what is the point

Which fwiw has prompted a quite interesting take on How can two walk together, unless they be agreed? that im still open to adjusting, but that is likely a discussion for a different day i guess.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Repeating what I already explained to you.



You already tried this argument.
I already told you it does not work, because babies are not obeying the gospel.
Babies do not have to believe, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Babies are not saved by faith alone.
Babies are saved without faith.
Babies are saved without obedience.
Therefore babies are saved without the gospel.
They are saved because they were never separated from God because of sin.
Adults need the gospel because we are sinners.
Our sins separate us from God, Isaiah 59:2.

So, your reasoning is wrong.
Babies have never been separated from God.
Babies are without sin.
Babies do not need saving. They are already saved.



It is irrelevant how other religions define works.
We only obey the law of Christ.
We let Jesus' gospel define works that are involved in salvation. Not jews!



As a already taught you, by the example of the thief on the cross,
No one is saved by Jesus without an obedient desire to serve Him.

Look at the story of the women caught in adultery,
John 8:1-11

Jesus knew her heart.
What did He say to her?
Go and sin no more.

Do you think Jesus would have forgave her if her heart was that she had no intention of changing her sinfull ways?

It is the same with all the stories of individuals Jesus forgave before His gospel was in force, Hebrews 9:16-17.

They all had to give their lives to Christ, obedience.
No one was saved by just believing Jesus but not repenting of sins.



Wrong! That's your imagination that he was saved without Godly sorrow without an obedient heart, for his sins against God.
You have zero scripture to support he was not obedient prior to becoming a thief. You just speculate/assume he was not baptized as all Jews were commanded, Mark 1:4-5.

I never said he was baptized!
I said he could have been baptized by John.
You speculate he was not.
I'm not guessing, you are.
I'm saying he could or could not have been baptized.
Your position cannot be backed up with book, chapter and verse.
Also, these examples you give for supposed faith only salvation are all conveniently BEFORE Jesus' gospel was in force!
No one will be saved the way the thief was saved. Not you, not anybody!
Bad argument.




Wrong, Jesus was very plain what the gospel is, Mark:16:15-16.
There is only one gospel says Paul, Ephesians 4:5.
Paul taught 1Corinthians 15:1-4
Paul taught about his own obedience to Jesus' gospel in chapter 9 of Acts. And Acts 22:16.
Paul taught, belief, repentance, confession and water immersion in the book of Romans.
Jesus taught the gospel includes immersion to be saved in Mark 16:15-16.

They way you cherry pick bible verses like 1Corinthians 15:1-4 shows you do not understand basic Bible study principles.

To cherry pick verses and say that's the gospel in its entirety like 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Is the cause for all the confusion on what saves us.

Faith alone advocates say 1Corinthians 15:1-4 is the gospel in its entirety.
That's cherry picking!

No one reads an instruction manual this way!
Just ignore this part but include this part.

Yet, this is exactly the way religious folks interpret the Bible.
Its nonsense.

You say Paul taught faith alone in 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Then he contradicts himself in Romans 10:9-10 , when he teaches confession with the mouth is made unto salvation.

Here is a rule you must learn to understand the scriptures.

Necessary inference.

If Paul teaches you must have faith to be saved, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Then it must be inferred that faith is included with other verses that do not directly mention faith,
Example, Paul commands everyone to repent, Acts 17:30-31.
To understand the Bible, it must be inferred that Faith is also a requirement to be saved.

If I interpret, the scriptures the way you do, then I can say,
"Paul says to repent in Acts 17:30, he dose not mention belief!"
Therefore I don't have to believe to be saved!

That is what you are doing with 1Corinthians 15:1-4!
Stop cherry picking out faith verses.
That is not how you understand an instruction manual.



Wrong, I already taught you, baptismos is NEVER USED in Jesus' gospel!
Every baptism done in the name of Jesus Christ, is baptizo. Not baptismos.
There is no more baptismos in Jesus'new covenant!



Wrong! Not one baptism done in the name of Jesus Christ was baptismos!
Acts 2:38 was the first baptism done under Jesus'new gospel.
It was Baptizo!

1Corinthians 1:17
I already taught you, that water immersion was always taught and practised by Paul, when he taught the gospel.

If water immersion was not in Paul's gospel then why did he baptize the Corinthian church?

Paul said he was sent to PREACH the gospel not to be the baptizer.
Paul's gospel includes water immersion to be saved.
Paul never taught Spirit baptism as you wrongly teach.

Paul teaches water immersion into Christ death, we are water baptized with Christ and raised from the watery grave of baptism to new life with Him, born again,
Romans 6:1-6.

Paul teaches in Romans 6 that water baptism is a re-enactment of Christ's death on the cross.
In baptism is where we are raised with in likeness of His ressurection.

1Corinthians 1:1-17.
The Corinthians were abusing baptism. Saying their baptism was not by the authority of Jesus Christ but by men like Paul or Apollos or Cephas, etc.
That is why Paul said,
Verse 14-15
I thank God I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius.

Lest anyone should say, that I had baptized in my own name.

No offense, but this passage below is what I believe your belief is doing when you try to make baptism (a work) as a part of your Initial Salvation, my friend.

Romans 9:31-32.
“But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;”

Again, I mean no offense. My attack is upon what I believe is the false belief and not you, brother.

Also, please carefully re-read very slowly Romans 4:9-12, and then read Romans 4:3 (and ask God for the understanding while you read these passages).

Abraham believed God and righteousness was imputed to him without circumcision (Which was a work).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

i believe we currently have different definitions of “salvation”

Conditional Salvation is the view that your salvation is based upon meeting certain conditions (like either just a belief alone in Jesus or a belief in Jesus and living holy, etcetera). Unconditional Salvation is the belief that once a person is saved, there is no way a person can be unsaved no matter what. They are forever forced in some way into the Kingdom of God based upon a one time decision made for Christ.

So again, do you believe in Conditional Salvation or Unconditional Salvation?

lol who would answer “yes” to that?

Well, I am not Free Will Baptist. But I have talked with Free Will Baptists who openly admitted to me that you can sin and still be saved. If you don’t believe that way, then you can simply say… “No, I am not a Free Will Baptist who believes they can sin and still be saved.”

Free Will Baptists are really clever. They deny OSAS and yet they justify a sin and still be saved type belief like OSAS folk do. Many OSAS believers try to tell me that they don’t justify sin, but then they later say that a believer can abide in sin and still be saved on some level.

i had considered “death, more abundantly” to be a valid description of most “Christian” believers’ walk, that succinctly described the desire for immortality and “afterlife;” in my ignorance, i even initially thought i had coined the term.

But i have seen that iron sharpens iron is also a manifestation of that belief, and wadr i am no longer able to hold up my end of a conversation of that nature; can one really “discuss” anything with a gnostic?

Which fwiw has prompted a quite interesting take on How can two walk together, unless they be agreed? but that is likely a discussion for a different day i guess

This sounds like you believe holy living after we are saved by God’s grace is a requirement as a part of God’s overall plan of salvation. Is this what you are implying?

 

[bbyrd009]

I would like to add that it is true that Romans 6:3-7 talks about how the Christian believers in Rome had been water baptized into Christ’s death (Whereby they were set free from sin). But this water baptism is merely symbolic of the real reality or action of what was taking place (Which is believing the gospel message

anyway, you make some good points imo, even if you might be contradicting yourself here

 

[bbyrd009]

So again, do you believe in Conditional Salvation or Unconditional Salvation?

again, we are surely currently operating with differing definitions of “salvation” which i am assuming yours implies a literal afterlife, or iow what we call immortality, right?

Well, I am not Free Will Baptist. But I have talked with Free Will Baptists who openly admitted to me that you can sin and still be saved. If you don’t believe that way, then you can simply say… “No, I am not a Free Will Baptist who believes they can sin and still be saved.”

”saved,” from what?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

anyway, you make some good points imo, even if you might be contradicting yourself here

Romans 6:3-7 is Paul talking about the Corinthian’s past belief in being water baptized. For water baptism was just something everyone did back then when a person first got saved as they were confessing their sins to Jesus and believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Water baptism was later phased out as God revealed to Paul the proper knowledge that water baptism was not ever a salvific requirement under the New Covenant (Hebrews 9:10) (Also see 1 Peter 3:21). God knows that not everyone would be open right away to outright denying John’s water baptism (Seeing it was done during Christ’s ministry). God can change things as he sees fit. 1 Corinthians 1:17 and Acts of the Apostles 19:1-5 are two key points in Scripture that illustrate a change. God baptizes in the Spirit automatically if a person accepts Christ by our preaching the gospel or good news of Jesus Christ.

 

[bbyrd009]

Free Will Baptists are really clever. They deny OSAS and yet they justify a sin and still be saved type belief like OSAS folk do. Many OSAS believers try to tell me that they don’t justify sin, but then they later say that a believer can abide in sin and still be saved on some level

man, are you ever bringing back memories…anyway, i am swimming in sin i guess, and have found that forgiveness is better than judgement :)

i love osas believers bc it gives me a clear sign who to steer clear of; which i would never say irl btw

Free Will Baptists are really clever. They deny OSAS and yet they justify a sin and still be saved type belief like OSAS folk do. Many OSAS believers try to tell me that they don’t justify sin, but then they later say that a believer can abide in sin and still be saved on some level

oh, i started out freewill—bout a million years ago lol—and while that likely describes a chunk of them i guess, there’s as many different opinions in that bunch as in any other?

Can i not miss the mark occasionally, yet still confess and be forgiven?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

again, we are surely currently operating with differing definitions of “salvation” which i am assuming yours implies a literal afterlife, or iow what we call immortality, right?

I believe the Bible teaches Dualistic Conditional Immortality.

To learn more, check out my write up here:

A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality

”saved,” from what?

Well, there are two ways to look at the word saved. One can look at it in the way you suggest and one can say the are saved in the sense that they are saved to live a life with God and to be in His Kingdom (Meaning we have eternal life to live with God). The other way is to say we are saved from destruction in the Lake of Fire. All evil and wicked people and beings will one day be destroyed or erased from existence. We will one day be saved from all forms of evil and be with God and His good Kingdom.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

man, are you ever bringing back memories…anyway, i am swimming in sin i guess, and have found that forgiveness is better than judgement :)

i love osas believers bc it gives me a clear sign who to steer clear of; which i would never say irl btw
oh, i started out freewill—bout a million years ago lol—and while that likely describes a chunk of them i guess, there’s as many different opinions in that bunch as in any other?

I believe OSAS and the Free Will Baptist belief is a justification of sin or evil (Which God cannot agree with because He is holy and good).
To give you an example: Check out this article on George Sodini.

O.S.A.S. – THE WATCHMAN'S CRY

Can i not miss the mark occasionally, yet still confess and be forgiven?

To confess and forsake sin is to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).
If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).
Confessing of sin is obviously only done towards the Lord Jesus Christ of course (1 John 2:1, 1 Timothy 2:5).

 

[bbyrd009]

This sounds like you believe holy living after we are saved by God’s grace is a requirement as a part of God’s overall plan of salvation. Is this what you are implying?

well, id have to say yes, and no, since “holy living” invokes certain images in my mind, that may not be quite what i believe; so my best reply right now is that i am aware that i dont go an hour without “sinning” unless i am asleep, probably, and while i no longer actively avoid people attempting “holy living,” it most often seems to manifest (to me anyway) as “cant confess,” which was also my result with the practice, if i am understanding your meaning of that

little kids miss the mark all the time; why do we give them a pass?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

well, id have to say yes, and no, since “holy living” invokes certain images in my mind, that may not be quite what i believe; so my best reply right now is that i am aware that i dont go an hour without “sinning” unless i am asleep, probably, and while i no longer actively avoid people attempting “holy living,” it most often seems to manifest (to me anyway) as “cant confess,” which was also my result with the practice

little kids miss the mark all the time; why do we give them a pass?

Things are not in the way that we prefer. One of the first lies in the garden of Eden by the serpent (the devil) was telling Eve that she would not die if she broke God’s command.

The serpent said to Eve:

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die.” (Genesis 3:4).

The devil is still pushing this lie today.
It’s the lie that a person can break God’s commands and sin and yet they will not die spiritually. For Adam and Eve did not physically die the day they ate of the tree but they died spiritually. God said that Adam would die in the day that he would eat of that tree (See: Genesis 2:17).

If you are still in sin… I encourage you to repent.
To repent means to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ over your sins with the intention that you will not do them ever again. This is followed by the fruits of repentance like studying His Word and doing good towards others according to the New Testament (or New Covenant).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

man, are you ever bringing back memories…anyway, i am swimming in sin i guess, and have found that forgiveness is better than judgement :)

i love osas believers bc it gives me a clear sign who to steer clear of; which i would never say irl btw
oh, i started out freewill—bout a million years ago lol—and while that likely describes a chunk of them i guess, there’s as many different opinions in that bunch as in any other?

Can i not miss the mark occasionally, yet still confess and be forgiven?

Please also carefully pray for the understanding as you read Hebrews 12:14, and 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

Blessings be unto you in the Lord.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

While this Christian film may not directly teach grace and Sanctification for salvation, it does emphasize the importance of both.

Trailer:

Short Synopsis of the Film:

Faced with an indifferent youth group, a new youth Pastor (actor: Brett Varvel) tries to motivate his students to read God's Word and get serious about their faith.​

I hope the film encourages folks to want to follow the Lord more involving His good ways.

May the Lord Jesus bless you all.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I would like to add that it is true that Romans 6:3-7 talks about how the Christian believers in Rome had been water baptized into Christ’s death (Whereby they were set free from sin). But this water baptism is merely symbolic of the real reality or action of what was taking place (Which is believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, calling upon the name of the Lord in seeking forgiveness with Him - Romans 10:13, Luke 18:9-14, Hebrews 4:16, and in receiving or inviting Christ into our life - John 1:12).

God back then was able to Spirit baptize a believer while they were being water baptized when first coming to the faith. Spirit baptism is the greater reality of water baptism because God is changing a person’s heart, too. But this water baptism was only until the time of reformation (Hebrews 9:10). Paul was making it clear that Christ sent him not to baptize (1 Corinthians 1:17). If this is the case, then it was not for salvation. For even Peter said baptism does not save us by the putting away of the filth of the flesh (sin), but it is done as an answer of having a good conscience towards God. It was the old way of what they did with John the baptist’s ministry. Jesus made it clear that things would change with believers being baptized into the Spirit instead. We see this happen with Cornelius and yet Peter did not understand this yet and so he just water baptized him and his family anyways (without having the full knowledge that Paul had when he wrote to the Corinthian believers).

2 Thessalonians 1:8
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

--the logical implication of this verse is one must obey if one does not want to be in flaming fire.
--before one can obey the gospel one must know what the gospel is.
--1 Corinthians 15:3-4 the gospel, as preached by Paul, is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
--since the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, then how does one obey these historical events?
--Romans 6:3-6 when one is WATER baptized, the old man of sin DIES, is "BURIED" in a watery grave from which which one is "RAISED UP" from. Hence only in water baptism is there the gospel, a death burial and resurrection. This death burial and resurrection does not take place with faith only or with a sinner's prayer or with any spirit baptism.
--so water baptism is not only symbolic of Christ's death burial and resurrection, water baptism is the only way one can obey the gospel having sins remitted and be saved from being in flaming fire.

By the time Paul penned his Ephesian epistle, there was "one baptism" (Ephesians 4:4-5). This one baptism being Christ's baptism of the great commission that had disciples (humans) administering water baptism. With this one baptism being the only way one obeys the gospel of Christ per 2 Thess 1:8. So there is no spirit baptism taking place today.

===============================

1 Corinthians 1:12-13
"Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

The implication of what Paul says here is that if I am to be "OF" someone then 2 things MUST be true of that someone. That someone must:
1) be crucified for me
2) I must be baptized in that someone's name

Since these 2 things are only true of Christ, then no one can be OF Paul or OF Apollos or OF other man.

Was Christ crucified for me? Yes, Christ tasted of death for every man, (Hebrews 2:9). Then why isn't every man saved? Because every mn has not been baptized in the name of Christ. Therefore BOTH 1 and 2 above must be true for anyone to be of Christ. Hence 1 Cor 1 is proof text for the necessity of water baptism whereby one can be of Christ.

When Paul said "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel" this is a not-but ellipsis, a figure of speech. The idea is Christ sent Paul not to merely baptize but to also preach the gospel. Paul put more emphasis on preaching over baptizing but not to the total exclusion of baptizing. Paul for a fact DID baptize (1 Corinthians 1:14,16) and did not transgress 1 Cor 1:17 by doing so. Paul, as all disciples, was under the great commission of Christ to go and baptize (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16). Christ does not contradict Himself by telling disciples to baptize then turn right around telling disciples not to baptize.
Note Paul used the verb 'baptize' not the noun 'baptism'....Paul did NOT say baptism is not part of the gospel.

===============================

1 Peter 3:21 Peter clearly says baptism saves:
Acts 2:38-------be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>> for remission of sins
1 Pet 3:21-------baptism >>>>>>>>>>>>>> saves

This water baptism that saves, which Peter commanded, is that one baptism of Ephesians 4:4-5, the baptism of Christ's great commission.

==============================

John did not promise anyone today any kind of spirit baptism. There is no spirit baptism that takes place today. There is ONE BAPTISM today per Ephesians 4:4-5 and not 2 or 3.

=============================

Acts 10, Peter was inspired by the Holy Spirit therefore Peter's command for Cornelius to be water baptized (Acts of the Apostles 10:47-48 was not a mistake, not a misunderstanding of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

First, the whole point of Romans 6 is not sinning while under grace (See: Romans 6:1-2, Romans 6:15). Meaning, Paul is not referring exclusively here to Initial Salvation in how you must do a work to be saved. In fact, he never uses those kinds of words in Romans 6. Paul never says, “When you first came to Christ, you did a work of righteousness by being water baptized so as to be saved.” No words of this sort exist in this chapter. Like your friends who believe in “No grace ever unless there is a work or works”, you are erroneously reading works into the word “obedience” and automatically equating it with works.

And "not sinning" REQUIRES obedience since sin is disobedience/transgression of the law. Therefore, one must obey in order to not be serving "sin unto death". Thereby making obedience and grace BOTH necessary to being saved.

Man has only one of 2 eternal destinies, one will either be saved or condemned. Paul put these 2 forward in Romans 6:16 when he said each of us is serving one of 2 masters. We each are serving:
1) sin unto death (condemnation)
2) obedience unto righteousness (salvation)

I serve obedience (which includes baptism) unto righteousness. Luther's "faith only" denies serving obedience unto righteousness. Which do ypu serve???

Babies who are aborted are saved purely by God’s grace without any works. So this disproves the notion that one must always have works in order to be saved.

No such thing as original sin. Babies are born innocent, without sin and if they die as infants, then they die in a safe state. Since infants have no sin then they have no sins to be repented of, have no sins to be remitted in baptism. Therefore infants do not need to obey nor are they able to obey.

Also, let me give you an example:

Bob tells Rick to seek forgiveness with his wife for something bad he said to her (that he did not really mean to say). Rick later seeks forgiveness with his wife, and Rick later talks with Bob. Bob asks Rick, “Did you take my advice?” Rick replied: “Yes, and I was blessed by God that she forgave me.” In other words, we can say that Rick obeyed Bob’s advice in seeking forgiveness with his wife. But can we say this is a physically laborious work on Rick’s part to seek forgiveness with his wife? No. Generally normally people do not think that this kind of thing is a work like work at a job.

Repentance is an obedient work. Jesus said those in Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). Jonah 3:10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Repentance was a work God saw, just as faith was a work Christ saw (Mark 2:3-5).

The Jews think pushing buttons in an elevator is work. Do you think that way?
In other words, my whole point is grace. Grace is the opposite of works when we think about those two words.

Second, I don’t believe Romans 6:17-18 supports your belief here, friend.

Romans 6:17-18 says,
“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”

My commentary below with brackets in blue:

Romans 6:17-18
“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you [you-all obeyed the doctrine of receiving and believing the gospel message that saves as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4]. Being then made free from sin [Being made free from sin by believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4], ye became the servants of righteousness [you-all became servants of righteousness by taking the next step in entering the Sanctification Process by the Holy Spirit by putting away sin, and idols, and by bringing forth the good works of God working through you - See: Romans 8:1, and Romans 8:13].”

This is what I believe the passage is saying. It’s not promoting the idea that you had to do a work in order to be initially saved.

You just rewrote the context to make it fit your beliefs. Remember in my last post where I post 2 Thessalonians 1:8 that MANDATES one obey the gospel as to not be in flaming fire? That water baptism is how one obeys the gospel, where in water baptism is a form of the death burial and resurrection of Christ. Those Romans had obeyed from the heart that FORM of doctrine..that had been water baptized, had sins remitted, freed from sin, justified.

Romans 6:7--------dead >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freed from sin
Romans 6:17-8---obey form of doctrine >>>>> freed from sin

One becomes "dead" when united with Christ in water baptism, Romans 6:3-4.

But you believe one has to perfectly obey a particular work in order to be saved by God’s grace which flies in the face of grace without works taught by Paul. Paul says if it is be of grace it is no more works and yet you say that there still is a work like baptism to be saved by grace. This is adding works into the grace equation and that is not taught when we are being saved by God’s grace. Paul makes it clear that Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel in 1 Corinthians 1:17. But you think water baptism is for salvation, right?

I NEVER said one must perfectly obey. I have said over and over man cannot be perfect, sinlessly flawless in his obedience to God therefore in need of grace. So there is a difference in obedience to God's will and works of merit in keeping God's law perfectly. sinlessly.

Here is 1 Corinthians 1:17 in how it reads normally in the King James Bible:

1 Corinthians 1:17 KJB (Correct Unaltered Version)
“For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”

Now, lets exchange the words baptize for save in 1 Corinthians 1:17 and see how that reads.

1 Corinthians 1:17 (Incorrect Altered Bible Translation)
“For Christ sent me not to save, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”

You think that baptism is the gospel which is silly. Why? Well, lets read how this verse would be understood if we exchanged the word baptize for preach the gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:17 (Incorrect Altered Bible Translation)
“For Christ sent me not to preach the gospel, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”

Do you now see how your belief here does not make any sense?

I dealt with 1 Corinthians in my last post showing from 1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Paul PROVES the necessity in being baptized in order to be "OF" Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

2 Thessalonians 1:8
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

--the logical implication of this verse is one must obey if one does not want to be in flaming fire.
--before one can obey the gospel one must know what the gospel is.
--1 Corinthians 15:3-4 the gospel, as preached by Paul, is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
--since the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, then how does one obey these historical events?

No. Obeying the gospel is simply obeying the instructions in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 tells you what to do (of which you are ignoring).

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”

Paul declares the gospel and defines it for us in this above passage. It is believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day according to the Scriptures. If a person believes this gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, they are obeying the gospel message.
There is no mention here of water baptism as a part of the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. This would need to be here if what you say is true, but it simply is not exist in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

--Romans 6:3-6 when one is WATER baptized, the old man of sin DIES, is "BURIED" in a watery grave from which which one is "RAISED UP" from. Hence only in water baptism is there the gospel, a death burial and resurrection. This death burial and resurrection does not take place with faith only or with a sinner's prayer or with any spirit baptism.

I used to at one time believe Romans 6:3-6 was an obedience part of the gospel while 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 was the believing part of the gospel but the problem with this is view is that it seeks to make a work or a Law the entrance gate, and foundation of one’s salvation.

However, if a work (i.e. Which is Works Alone Salvationism) is the basis for a person’s salvation, they are condemned. For if a person’s good deeds must outweigh their bad deeds, which is what Works Alone Salvationism is all about, then that does not wipe away their past sins. Only God’s grace and believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and throwing yourself down upon God’s mercy can a person’s past slate of sin be wiped out. But like the Jews, many who seek to make a work like water baptism to be initially saved is the same thing as those who tried to make circumcision (a work) the entrance gate and basis for their salvation.

“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:2).

Paul was merely repeating the same heresy that Jews were trying to push upon Gentile Christians at the Jerusalem council here:

Acts of the Apostles 15:1
“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

By your works approach in coming to God (water baptism for initial salvation), I believe that you are making a work the entrance gate to salvation of which Paul warned about with the Jew’s initial law based approach to God here:

Romans 10:1-4
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”

Pop quiz question: According to the passage below, did God impute righteousness before Abraham was circumcised? Yes, or no?

Romans 4:9-12
“Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

What was the thing that Abraham did before circumcision whereby God imputed righteousness to him?

“Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” (Romans 4:3).

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,” (Romans 4:5-6).

In verse 5 above in this verse, how do you worketh not? How does that relate to Abraham believing and being accounted righteous before he was being circumcised? According to verse 6: How exactly was David able to describe righteousness without works? David was under the Law by faith and so how was David able to say God imputes righteousness without works? This is a puzzle that you cannot resolve by your current belief system. So your belief is merely self imploding in light of what we read in Scripture here, my friend.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

2 Thessalonians 1:8
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

--the logical implication of this verse is one must obey if one does not want to be in flaming fire.
--before one can obey the gospel one must know what the gospel is.
--1 Corinthians 15:3-4 the gospel, as preached by Paul, is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
--since the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, then how does one obey these historical events?
--Romans 6:3-6 when one is WATER baptized, the old man of sin DIES, is "BURIED" in a watery grave from which which one is "RAISED UP" from. Hence only in water baptism is there the gospel, a death burial and resurrection. This death burial and resurrection does not take place with faith only or with a sinner's prayer or with any spirit baptism.
--so water baptism is not only symbolic of Christ's death burial and resurrection, water baptism is the only way one can obey the gospel having sins remitted and be saved from being in flaming fire.

By the time Paul penned his Ephesian epistle, there was "one baptism" (Ephesians 4:4-5). This one baptism being Christ's baptism of the great commission that had disciples (humans) administering water baptism. With this one baptism being the only way one obeys the gospel of Christ per 2 Thess 1:8. So there is no spirit baptism taking place today.

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1 Corinthians 1:12-13
"Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

The implication of what Paul says here is that if I am to be "OF" someone then 2 things MUST be true of that someone. That someone must:
1) be crucified for me
2) I must be baptized in that someone's name

Since these 2 things are only true of Christ, then no one can be OF Paul or OF Apollos or OF other man.

Was Christ crucified for me? Yes, Christ tasted of death for every man, (Hebrews 2:9). Then why isn't every man saved? Because every mn has not been baptized in the name of Christ. Therefore BOTH 1 and 2 above must be true for anyone to be of Christ. Hence 1 Cor 1 is proof text for the necessity of water baptism whereby one can be of Christ.

When Paul said "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel" this is a not-but ellipsis, a figure of speech. The idea is Christ sent Paul not to merely baptize but to also preach the gospel. Paul put more emphasis on preaching over baptizing but not to the total exclusion of baptizing. Paul for a fact DID baptize (1 Corinthians 1:14,16) and did not transgress 1 Cor 1:17 by doing so. Paul, as all disciples, was under the great commission of Christ to go and baptize (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16). Christ does not contradict Himself by telling disciples to baptize then turn right around telling disciples not to baptize.
Note Paul used the verb 'baptize' not the noun 'baptism'....Paul did NOT say baptism is not part of the gospel.

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1 Peter 3:21 Peter clearly says baptism saves:
Acts 2:38-------be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>> for remission of sins
1 Pet 3:21-------baptism >>>>>>>>>>>>>> saves

This water baptism that saves, which Peter commanded, is that one baptism of Ephesians 4:4-5, the baptism of Christ's great commission.

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John did not promise anyone today any kind of spirit baptism. There is no spirit baptism that takes place today. There is ONE BAPTISM today per Ephesians 4:4-5 and not 2 or 3.

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Acts 10, Peter was inspired by the Holy Spirit therefore Peter's command for Cornelius to be water baptized (Acts of the Apostles 10:47-48 was not a mistake, not a misunderstanding of the Holy Spirit.

Continuing on from my point in my last post:

Romans 10:8-17 says:

8 “The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”​

Below is my commentary to the text that are put forth in blue words within brackets:
Note: I believe the below passage is referring to Initial Salvation in being saved by God’s grace without the deeds of the law (Which ties in to the entrance gate of salvation that the Jews were not accepting - Romans 10:1-4). Accepting Initial Salvation (or the 1st aspect of salvation) does not mean we are not to enter the second aspect of salvation (the Sanctification of the Spirit of God to live a holy life) after we are saved by God’s grace.

Romans 10:8-17

8 “But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart [this would be the word(s) “Lord Jesus” as mentioned in the next verse]: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus [for it is by confession of the words “Lord Jesus” which is a part of when we call upon the name of the Lord Jesus by way of prayer according to the working of the Spirit], and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved [this is a part of the same thing we have to do in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in that the gospel is our believing that Christ was risen on the third day].
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness [imputed righteousness without works - see Romans 4:9-12]; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation [this is confession of our sins to the Lord Jesus by way of prayer which is a result of our belief in the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4].
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed [for the Jew is not to be ashamed to confess Jesus is Lord in seeking forgiveness with Him that would alienate his Jewish brethren].
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him [the Lord Jesus is rich in His mercy and forgiveness for those who call upon Him for salvation and or in seeking forgiveness with Him].
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved [for any person who calls upon Jesus seeking to be saved and or to be forgiven by way of prayer shall be saved].
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? [Meaning, how can we call upon the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness by way of prayer if we have not believed the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?] and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? [how can a person believe in Jesus for salvation if they have not heard the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?] and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! [1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is the gospel of peace that we preach and it is the glad tidings of good things because believing in this gospel message is easy for a person to be saved; There is no jumping through hoops of fire here to start off in being saved by God]
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? [for not all the Jews have obeyed the gospel. Why? Because they have not BELIEVED their report of the gospel message as declared by the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4]
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God [this is the hearing of the true faith: A faith that comes by hearing the word of God in that we believe the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and we are changed by believing in it].”​

So this explains the true obedience of the gospel. For if you noticed Paul says in verse 16 that they have not all obeyed the gospel and then Paul proceeds to ask the question, who has BELIEVED their report? So it’s a belief that they have to obey. This belief to be saved is the gospel message as found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. This is the obedience of the gospel.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And "not sinning" REQUIRES obedience since sin is disobedience/transgression of the law. Therefore, one must obey in order to not be serving "sin unto death". Thereby making obedience and grace BOTH necessary to being saved.

Man has only one of 2 eternal destinies, one will either be saved or condemned. Paul put these 2 forward in Romans 6:16 when he said each of us is serving one of 2 masters. We each are serving:
1) sin unto death (condemnation)
2) obedience unto righteousness (salvation)

I serve obedience (which includes baptism) unto righteousness. Luther's "faith only" denies serving obedience unto righteousness. Which do ypu serve???



No such thing as original sin. Babies are born innocent, without sin and if they die as infants, then they die in a safe state. Since infants have no sin then they have no sins to be repented of, have no sins to be remitted in baptism. Therefore infants do not need to obey nor are they able to obey.



Repentance is an obedient work. Jesus said those in Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). Jonah 3:10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Repentance was a work God saw, just as faith was a work Christ saw (Mark 2:3-5).




You just rewrote the context to make it fit your beliefs. Remember in my last post where I post 2 Thessalonians 1:8 that MANDATES one obey the gospel as to not be in flaming fire? That water baptism is how one obeys the gospel, where in water baptism is a form of the death burial and resurrection of Christ. Those Romans had obeyed from the heart that FORM of doctrine..that had been water baptized, had sins remitted, freed from sin, justified.

Romans 6:7--------dead >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freed from sin
Romans 6:17-8---obey form of doctrine >>>>> freed from sin

One becomes "dead" when united with Christ in water baptism, Romans 6:3-4.




I NEVER said one must perfectly obey. I have said over and over man cannot be perfect, sinlessly flawless in his obedience to God therefore in need of grace. So there is a difference in obedience to God's will and works of merit in keeping God's law perfectly. sinlessly.



I dealt with 1 Corinthians in my last post showing from 1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Paul PROVES the necessity in being baptized in order to be "OF" Christ.

In regards to Romans 6:3-7: Baptism is only in reference to a symbolic picture of being baptized into his death. Baptisms or washings (Baptismos - Greek) was only imposed upon believers until the time of reformation (Hebrews 9:10). The resurrection mentioned in Romans 6:3-4 is in reference to walking in newness of life. So the resurrection part is not tied to baptism here if you want it to perfectly line up with 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Nowhere does Romans 6:3-7 actually say this is called the “obedience of the gospel” which is unlike Romans 10:16 that actually compares the words “obeyed the gospel” with the word “believed” (Which is antithetical to your works first by way of baptism plan of salvation), my friend.

Paul only brought up the point on how water baptism as being a symbolic picture of Christ’s death because Paul was concerned enough involving the Christians at Rome to ask the question: “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.” (Romans 6:1-2). In Romans 6:3-7: Paul was not setting out to teach that this was the actual same gospel message as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 by any means. Nowhere does Paul say that Romans 6:3-7 is the obedience of the gospel. That’s your imagination working overtime. Sure it may appear at first glance to look like that, but it’s not because the resurrection is not tied to baptism in this passage. Walking in newness of life is tied to the resurrection. But again, that does not mean that walking in newness of life is the gospel. It is merely a symbolic picture or parallel of believing the gospel message that saves in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No such thing as original sin.

Sure there is. If not, then there would be a person who could have not sinned. The fact that men sin proves man is infected with a sin nature and if man is infected with a sin nature or fallen nature then sin abides upon their very being and existence.

If there was no Original Sin then Jesus did not have to be born by way of a virgin bypassing the male seed that imputes sin.
For Adam and Eve’s eyes were not opened to their nakedness until Adam ate of the wrong tree.

The door swings both ways. If sin cannot be imputed then righteousness cannot be imputed by Jesus Christ. Meaning, a person cannot believe that Christ died for their sins according to the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

For many people love the good news but when it comes to the bad news, they are not willing to own up to it.

Jesus reverses the curse. So Adam’s sin that condemns a baby to die, by Jesus Christ and His sacrifice, that baby can live and have life in God’s Kingdom.

For if Jesus did not go to the cross, we would all be doomed. For Jesus is the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the entire world. This would include the sin from Adam that is imputed to a baby. Jesus took this kind of curse away.

Babies are born innocent, without sin and if they die as infants, then they die in a safe state. Since infants have no sin then they have no sins to be repented of, have no sins to be remitted in baptism. Therefore infants do not need to obey nor are they able to obey.

If this was the case, then…. Jesus did not need to die on the cross for man’s sins and God could have just saved His people by aborting them instead. It’s why the Bible says in Adam all die…. In Christ all shall be made alive.