James Was Not Talking about Faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation

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Repentance is an obedient work. Jesus said those in Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). Jonah 3:10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Repentance was a work God saw, just as faith was a work Christ saw (Mark 2:3-5).

Here is…

A Biblical Case For Repentance:

At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches that "Repentance" means, "Asking God for forgiveness" (Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

"Asking God for forgiveness of sin" can either refer to: The "Sinner's Prayer" (Initial Salvation) (Romans 10:13), and or the seasoned believer "Confessing one's sin" (Continued Salvation) (See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1).

Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin.”

#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).​

#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

(Continued in my next post).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.


Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I dealt with 1 Corinthians in my last post showing from 1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Paul PROVES the necessity in being baptized in order to be "OF" Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:12-13 is a part of John’s water baptism in identifying with Christ. This was only imposed on believers until the time of reformation (The same Greek word “baptismos” is used for the English word “washings” in Hebrews 9:10 as it is used for the English word “baptisms.” In other words, baptism was only imposed upon believers until the time of reformation; Meaning, it was temporary).

With your belief on water baptism for salvation: 1 Corinthians 1:17 still does not make any sense with a normal reading unless you twist it somehow. As I stated before, exchanging out the word “baptize” with “save” or to “preach the gospel” renders the verse as absolute nonsense. For you equate water baptism with salvation and or the gospel.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I dealt with 1 Corinthians in my last post showing from 1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Paul PROVES the necessity in being baptized in order to be "OF" Christ.

Here is my biblical case that...

Spirit Baptism is the one and only baptism in effect today.

Scriptural Support:

#1. Ephesians 4:5 says that there is “one baptism.”

#2. 1 Corinthians 12:13 says, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

#3. The prophecy and fulfilment of the new baptism:

Jesus stated:
“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.” (Acts of the Apostles 1:5). ......... .

Note: This baptism of the Holy Ghost took place at Pentecost for the Jewish believers (See: Acts of the Apostles 2), and it happened for the Gentiles with Cornelius and his family in Acts 10 (Also see: Acts 11 about Peter’s recollection of this event; For Peter recalls the words of Jesus in Acts of the Apostles 1:5 when Cornelius and his family experienced the baptism of the Spirit after the gospel was preached to them) (Note: In Acts 10-11: Peter was just first learning of the baptism of the Spirit and he did not know yet that water baptism had ended at this point in his life).

#4. 1 Corinthians 1:17 says, “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.” If water baptism is what places us into Christ, then why is Paul teaching against it here? This must mean that the true baptism is Spirit baptism and that the baptism that Paul was not sent by Christ to put forth was water baptism. For the apostles were commissioned to baptize in Matthew 28:19, and yet, Paul was an apostle.

#5. Acts of the Apostles 18:24-26 says, And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.” In short, Aquila and Priscilla (who were taught by Paul) expounded the Word of God more perfectly unto Apollos because he only knew of John’s baptism of water. Apollos needed to learn of Spirit baptism (Which is the true New Covenant way of being baptized).

#6. Acts of the Apostles 19:1-7 says, “And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve.”
In other words, the believers at Ephesus only knew of John’s baptism of water, and they were not aware of the Holy Ghost. So Paul baptized them into the Holy Ghost by laying his hands on them. So they received the baptism of the Spirit.

#7. Mark 16:16 says: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
If one believes Ephesians 2:8-9, and they also believe that water baptism is for salvation: Well, this is a problem if they are claiming that believers are initially and foundationally saved by God’s grace and not of works according to Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, and Titus 3:5. For if baptism is a work we must do to be saved by God’s grace or as a part of the gospel, then it nullifies the first aspect in the salvation process in being saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ without the deeds of the Law. Thus, when Jesus refers to baptism here to be saved he is referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Which takes place every time a person accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior). The Holy Spirit is a part of our salvation (See: Romans 8:9, Romans 8:11, and Romans 8:13; Ephesians 1:13-14).

(Continued in my next post):​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I dealt with 1 Corinthians in my last post showing from 1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Paul PROVES the necessity in being baptized in order to be "OF" Christ.

(Continued from my last post):

#8. The Holy Spirit is compared to water;

Water baptism (an OT ritual) is a picture that points ahead to the true baptism (i.e. Spirit baptism). Jesus told the woman at the well, “Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.” (John 4:13-14).

So what is this living water that Jesus talks about that is like a well of water springing up into everlasting life? John 7 gives us the answer. “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given ; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)“ (John 7:38-39). In other words, the Holy Spirit is the living waters that can live in a person that Jesus was talking about with the woman at the well.

#9. Hebrews 9:10 says, “Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” The word “washings” is the Greek word “baptismos” (βαπτισμός) (Check out here for the Strong’s definition). In other words, Hebrews 9:10 is saying that diverse baptisms (washings) were imposed on believers until the time of reformation. Meaning, water baptism will give way or pass away until the time of reformation (Which means that Spirit baptism is now the one and only true baptism for today).

#10. 1 Corinthians 6:11 says, “And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.” This shows that when we accept Jesus as our Savior, our hearts our WASHED (like with water) and sanctified by the Spirit of God (i.e. the Holy Spirit). We are born again, and we have a new heart with new desires. We have become baptized by the Spirit.

#11. Ezekiel 36:25-27 says,

[25] Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. [26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.” This clean water that is sprinkled upon them so that they would be clean is referring to the immersion (baptism) of the Holy Spirit when and when we receive a new heart with new desires (become born again). This water is not water baptism but Spirit baptism that transforms a person’s life.

#12. Ephesians 1:13 says,
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,” This lets us know that by hearing the gospel, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. This is being immersed into the Spirit for the first time sort of like with Cornelius and his household (Note: This does not mean we will speak in tongues, but we will have a change of the heart and a peace like never. before).

#13. Certain baptist groups believe that the word “baptize” in 1 Corinthians 12:13 refers to water baptism and not Spirit baptism. This suggests that they are building the church. However, in Matthew 16:18, we learn that Jesus Christ said, "I WILL build my church." The future tense of the verb suggests that the construction of the church had not yet started when Christ said these words. Our Lord did not say, "I have built my church." He also did not say, "I am building my church." No, the construction of the church had not yet started and thus the church was yet future. At the time Jesus spoke the words of Matthew 16:18 the church had not yet begun. This suggests that Spirit baptism (done by Christ) is the new form of baptism for the New Covenant.
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#14. Jesus did not water baptize anyone. Some Christian groups teach that water baptism is for salvation. Yet, if this is the case, then they would be saying that Jesus did not save anyone because He did not water baptize. However, we know that Jesus does baptize, but it is Spirit baptism and not water baptism. For John the Baptist said, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:” (Matthew 3:11). ​

Side Note:

Please keep in mind that water baptism (Although required during John the Baptist's time) never really saved in regards to putting away the filth of the flesh (sin) but it saved as a part of answering the call in having a good conscience towards God (See 1 Peter 3:21). What was salvific was the confessing one's sins to the Lord when a person was being water baptized. The water aspect in baptism does not save. Granted, today, I would not stop a believer if they felt convicted by God to be water baptized as long as they believed with all their heart on the matter (But it should never be done for salvation). Water baptism is merely the picture or symbol of the greater reality of Spirit baptism which takes place for every believer who genuinely is sorry over their sins with a godly sorrow (Whereby they intend to forsake those sins) and they seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ over their past life of sin, and then God transforms their heart and gives them a love, joy, and peace like they have never known before. If you were not changed and neither did you receive any new found love, joy, and peace unlike ever before when you were water baptized for salvation,… now is the time to truly and simply just seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 for your initial and foundational salvation.

 

[bbyrd009]

All evil and wicked people and beings will one day be destroyed or erased from existence

more or less what happens right now eh

We will one day be saved from all forms of evil and be with God and His good Kingdom

no reason i can see that that cant be today though :)

 

[marks]

Salvation produces works, but salvation is not maintained by works, salvation is always and only in Christ, by trusting Him to save.

This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Not maintaining is not Scripture, and is not good for salvation.

We are to maintain good works, but not that good works maintain our salvation. You are misusing this passage for something it does not say if you are asserting that our works "keep us saved".

Much love!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No. Obeying the gospel is simply obeying the instructions in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 tells you what to do (of which you are ignoring).

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”

Paul declares the gospel and defines it for us in this above passage. It is believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day according to the Scriptures. If a person believes this gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, they are obeying the gospel message.
There is no mention here of water baptism as a part of the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. This would need to be here if what you say is true, but it simply is not exist in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Paul clearly made obeying the gospel a requirement to not be in flaming fire, 2 Thessalonians 1:8. Hence there is no salvation apart from obedience. I showed the relationship between the death, burial and resurrection of Christ to the death burial and resurrection that takes place in water baptism. There is no death burial and resurrection in belief alone for Paul never taught belief alone. Paul shows repentance, confession and baptism (Rom 2:3-5; Romans 10:9-10; Rom 6) are all necessary to being saved and not until one is water baptized has one obeyed the gospel of Christ......

Peter preached the gospel (death, burial, resurrection of Christ) to those Jews in Acts 2 and v41 says "they that gladly received his word were baptized". The logical conclusion is being baptized is receiving the gospel word, rejecting baptism is rejecting the gospel message. Those these people believed (pricked in hearts) in v37, but it was not until they were water baptized that they obeyed the gospel and received the gospel.

I used to at one time believe Romans 6:3-6 was an obedience part of the gospel while 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 was the believing part of the gospel but the problem with this is view is that it seeks to make a work or a Law the entrance gate, and foundation of one’s salvation.

Paul, the Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself preaching belief only in one passage and obedience in another. In 1 Cor 15 Paul is writing to those who were ALREADY Christian, those who ALREADY OBEYED the gospel. He was not teaching to lost sinners on how to become saved. 1 Cor 15:1-4 shows they had already accepted the gospel having been baptized, Paul had baptized some of them (1 Corinthians 1:14; 1 Corinthian 6:11). These ALREADY baptized Christians and some were denying the bodily resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:12-13). And this is what Paul is addressing in the context. Paul points out there contradiction in their belief of the bodily of Christ but not in their own bodily resurrection. Again, in 1 Cor 15 Paul is NOT teaching lost sinners how to become saved, but giving instruction in correcting false belief some of those Corinthians had about the bodily resurrection.

However, if a work (i.e. Which is Works Alone Salvationism) is the basis for a person’s salvation, they are condemned. For if a person’s good deeds must outweigh their bad deeds, which is what Works Alone Salvationism is all about, then that does not wipe away their past sins. Only God’s grace and believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and throwing yourself down upon God’s mercy can a person’s past slate of sin be wiped out. But like the Jews, many who seek to make a work like water baptism to be initially saved is the same thing as those who tried to make circumcision (a work) the entrance gate and basis for their salvation.

“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:2).

Paul was merely repeating the same heresy that Jews were trying to push upon Gentile Christians at the Jerusalem council here:

Acts of the Apostles 15:1
“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

I do not find where the Bible teaches "works alone" salvation. It does teach that salvation is by God's grace and man's faithful obedience.

In Galatians, there were false teachers that led some away from the gospel back to the OT and Paul was showing them that the OT law cannot justify them for it requires the work of perfect, flawless law keeping. Hence obeying the OT law in being circumcised does not justify, while obeying the NT gospel does justify. Paul condemned them for having quit obeying the truth (NT) Galatians 5:7. So there is no comparison that can be made between trying to be justified by the law of Moses that cannot justify and obeying the NT gospel that does justify.

By your works approach in coming to God (water baptism for initial salvation), I believe that you are making a work the entrance gate to salvation of which Paul warned about with the Jew’s initial law based approach to God here:

Romans 10:1-4
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”

Submitting to water baptism is obedience, not a work of merit. No one will ever be saved by disobeying God's commands. I quote Romans 10:3 many times myself for it shows 2 different works in that verse:
1) establishing their own righteousness
2) obeying/submitting to God's righteousness

Those Jews were lost for they were following their own traditions rather than obey God's righteous commands. So we can see from this one verse all works are not alike, some works save others do not and the one work that saves that those Jews would not do is submit to Gos' commands, they would not obey by believing, repenting, confessing, being baptized, they have not obeyed the gospel (Romans 10:16) hence they were lost.

Pop quiz question: According to the passage below, did God impute righteousness before Abraham was circumcised? Yes, or no?

Romans 4:9-12
“Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

What was the thing that Abraham did before circumcision whereby God imputed righteousness to him?

“Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” (Romans 4:3).

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,” (Romans 4:5-6).

In verse 5 above in this verse, how do you worketh not? How does that relate to Abraham believing and being accounted righteous before he was being circumcised? According to verse 6: How exactly was David able to describe righteousness without works? David was under the Law by faith and so how was David able to say God imputes righteousness without works? This is a puzzle that you cannot resolve by your current belief system. So your belief is merely self imploding in light of what we read in Scripture here, my friend.

In Romans 4, Paul showed Abraham was justified apart from circumcision, which means he was justified APART from the law of Moses. Paul thereby proved to the Jews justification comes APART from the law of Moses hence the Jews were wrong in saying the Gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved (Acts 15:1-2). Paul's point in Rom 4 is proving justification does not come by the law of Moses but by a faithful obedience as Abrham had (Hebrews 11:8; Hebrews 11:17). Paul NEVER EVER said justification come apart from a faithful obedience for in Romans 6 Paul put obeying from the heart first, then one is freed from sin/justified.

Hence the 'worketh not" in Rom 4:5 refers to the work of flawless law keeping. Abraham was NOT justified by the work of flawless law keeping but by and obedient faith as James points out in James 2. Again, Abraham DID do works, he OBEYED God (Hebrews 11:8,17) therefore "worketh not' cannot logically eliminate those obedient works Abraham DID do but it eliminates the flawless works required by the law of Moses.

 

[marks]

Well, I am not Free Will Baptist. But I have talked with Free Will Baptists who openly admitted to me that you can sin and still be saved. If you don’t believe that way, then you can simply say… “No, I am not a Free Will Baptist who believes they can sin and still be saved.”

Yet you yourself have acknowledge a process of growth in the Christian, not that they cease from all works of the flesh - sin - when they are born again, but that they decrease in their sin, is that not so?

And if that is so, how does that reflect on how you present yourself here? I don't see consistency.

Much love!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

In regards to Romans 6:3-7: Baptism is only in reference to a symbolic picture of being baptized into his death. Baptisms or washings (Baptismos - Greek) was only imposed upon believers until the time of reformation (Hebrews 9:10). The resurrection mentioned in Romans 6:3-4 is in reference to walking in newness of life. So the resurrection part is not tied to baptism here if you want it to perfectly line up with 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Nowhere does Romans 6:3-7 actually say this is called the “obedience of the gospel” which is unlike Romans 10:16 that actually compares the words “obeyed the gospel” with the word “believed” (Which is antithetical to your works first by way of baptism plan of salvation), my friend.

Paul only brought up the point on how water baptism as being a symbolic picture of Christ’s death because Paul was concerned enough involving the Christians at Rome to ask the question: “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.” (Romans 6:1-2). In Romans 6:3-7: Paul was not setting out to teach that this was the actual same gospel message as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 by any means. Nowhere does Paul say that Romans 6:3-7 is the obedience of the gospel. That’s your imagination working overtime. Sure it may appear at first glance to look like that, but it’s not because the resurrection is not tied to baptism in this passage. Walking in newness of life is tied to the resurrection. But again, that does not mean that walking in newness of life is the gospel. It is merely a symbolic picture or parallel of believing the gospel message that saves in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Romans 6:3-5 Paul connected baptizo (meaning a literal immersion) where one is buried in a watery grave the raised up from that watery grave to walk in newness of life. Without that literal immersion there is no walking in newness of life for the man of sin has not dies, not been buried nor resurrected. It is not until one is baptized, the old man of sin dies, is buried and resurrected.

Romans 6:7 without baptism the old man of sin has not died therefore not justified. And one is not "dead" until he has been united with Christ in baptism...are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Paul's point is ALL who are Christians were baptized into Christ's death. If baptism were not necessary, then Paul's point here is mute, pointless.

"we are buried with him by baptism into death, that like as Christ was raised up from the dead" Paul makes the connection between Christ's death and resurrection and the death and resurrection that takes place when one is water baptized. Therefore one the old man of sin has not died, one cannot walk in newness of life and one has not obeyed the gospel until one has LIKE CHRIST, died and been resurrected.

There is no death burial resurrection that takes place with "belief only" for Paul here clearly makes that death burial resurrection connection to water baptism. Again, that connection is never made to belief only or to saying a sinners' prayer or to any kind of 'spirit' baptism. That connection in the Bible is only made to water baptism.

Again, your 1 Cor 15 argument fails for Paul is not addressing lost sinners on how to be saved but is addressing those who were ALREADY water baptized, who ALREADY made that connection to Christ's death burial and resurrection by being water baptized. Some of them did not believe in the bodily resurrection. Therefore Paul used Christ's death burial and resurrection which they did believe in to refute their denial of their own bodily resurrection. You are reading things into the passage that are not there.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Sure there is. If not, then there would be a person who could have not sinned. The fact that men sin proves man is infected with a sin nature and if man is infected with a sin nature or fallen nature then sin abides upon their very being and existence.

If there was no Original Sin then Jesus did not have to be born by way of a virgin bypassing the male seed that imputes sin.
For Adam and Eve’s eyes were not opened to their nakedness until Adam ate of the wrong tree.

The door swings both ways. If sin cannot be imputed then righteousness cannot be imputed by Jesus Christ. Meaning, a person cannot believe that Christ died for their sins according to the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

For many people love the good news but when it comes to the bad news, they are not willing to own up to it.

Jesus reverses the curse. So Adam’s sin that condemns a baby to die, by Jesus Christ and His sacrifice, that baby can live and have life in God’s Kingdom.

For if Jesus did not go to the cross, we would all be doomed. For Jesus is the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the entire world. This would include the sin from Adam that is imputed to a baby. Jesus took this kind of curse away.



If this was the case, then…. Jesus did not need to die on the cross for man’s sins and God could have just saved His people by aborting them instead. It’s why the Bible says in Adam all die…. In Christ all shall be made alive.

If you believe what the Bible teaches and agree with the Bible on how the Bible defines sin, then you cannot believe in original sin. The Bible says:
--if there were no law then there would be no transgression Romans 4:15.
--sin is transgression of the law 1 John 3:4.
--only accountable people can transgress God's law, Romans 7:8-9.

These 3 passages make the man made idea of original sin impossible. According to the Bible, just being born does not make one a sinner. There must be a law, that law must be transgressed by an accountable person THEN a person is a sinner.

So there does not have to be OS for men to be sinners. Men sin by following in the steps of Adam. Adam was not created a sinner, but Adam was given a law to not eat of a particular tree. Adam being accountable to God knowing what was right and wrong, transgressed God's law when he ate of that tree THEN he became a sinner. We today are not created sinners at birth, but as men are taught right from wrong (Isaiah 7:15-16) men are accountable God and when and only when men transgress God's law do they become sinners. No such thing in the Bible of one being a sinner BEFORE one sins or one being righteous BEFORE one does righteousness. OS sin is not needed for men to be sinners, all that is needed is law, man choosing to transgress that law THEN man becomes a sinner.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

more or less what happens right now eh

Uh no. We are talking about the TOTAL eradication of evil in view here and not evil people dying just as faithful Christians can die. There will be no more death, pain, or sorrow in the New Earth (Christ’s eternal Kingdom).

We will one day be saved from all forms of evil and be with God and His good Kingdom

no reason i can see that that cant be today though :)

That makes absolutely no sense. How so?

Is the Bible your final Word of authority for all matters of faith and practice?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We are to maintain good works, but not that good works maintain our salvation. You are misusing this passage for something it does not say if you are asserting that our works "keep us saved".

Much love!

Not I… but the Bible says so.

While we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ, the Bible also teaches that works of faith also play a part in the salvation process. For both Jesus and Paul taught and or implied that works play a part in eternal life.

#1. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you can deny God by one's works.

For Jesus said,
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:23).

Jesus said,
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

Paul said,
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).​

#2. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you need to drink of (walk in) the Spirit as a part of everlasting life.

Jesus said,
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." (John 4:14).

Jesus said,
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38).

John said this of Jesus's words,
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:39).

Paul said,
“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Paul said,
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

Paul said,
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).​

#3. Both Jesus and Paul say that the judgment involves those being condemned or punished in the afterlife for doing evil vs. doing good leading to glory or life as a part of God's kingdom.

Jesus said,
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Paul said,
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Paul said,
19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).​

#4. Both Jesus and Paul taught that we have to continue to abide in the good works of the Lord or we will be cut off and or burned in the fire.

Jesus said,
4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:4-6).

Paul said,
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).​

#5. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say that the fear of the Lord is a part of salvation.

Jesus said,
"Fear not them who can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him (The Lord, i.e. Jesus) who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:28‬).

Paul said,
"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).​

#6. Both Jesus and Paul taught that laboring for the right kind of food relates to everlasting life.

Jesus says,
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you..." (John 6:29).

Jesus says,
"My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34).

Paul said,
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).​

#7. Both Jesus and Paul spoke of a time in the last days of where false prophets shall arise who are faithless and who do not love (i.e. they will have a form of godliness).

Jesus said,
"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8).

Jesus said,
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." (Matthew 24:12).

Jesus said,
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many" (Matthew 24:11).

Paul said,
1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."
(2 Timothy 3:1-9).

​

Side Note:

Please take note that James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). So the faithless that Jesus talks about are those who are fruitless or those who do not have any truly good works. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is also a revealing passage, as well. Basically it is saying what you are not supposed to be like. For this passage describes those who have a form of godliness and they are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. This means that Perpetual Belief Alone-ism (that leads to one not being concerned about sin or not treating it as seriously) is simply not true. For the moment I tell someone that all they need to do to be saved is to believe in Jesus and nothing else, they are going to not be concerned with living holy (because they do not think it is necessary to enter God's Kingdom).​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Romans 6:3-5 Paul connected baptizo (meaning a literal immersion) where one is buried in a watery grave the raised up from that watery grave to walk in newness of life. Without that literal immersion there is no walking in newness of life for the man of sin has not dies, not been buried nor resurrected. It is not until one is baptized, the old man of sin dies, is buried and resurrected.

Romans 6:7 without baptism the old man of sin has not died therefore not justified. And one is not "dead" until he has been united with Christ in baptism...are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Paul's point is ALL who are Christians were baptized into Christ's death. If baptism were not necessary, then Paul's point here is mute, pointless.

"we are buried with him by baptism into death, that like as Christ was raised up from the dead" Paul makes the connection between Christ's death and resurrection and the death and resurrection that takes place when one is water baptized. Therefore one the old man of sin has not died, one cannot walk in newness of life and one has not obeyed the gospel until one has LIKE CHRIST, died and been resurrected.

There is no death burial resurrection that takes place with "belief only" for Paul here clearly makes that death burial resurrection connection to water baptism. Again, that connection is never made to belief only or to saying a sinners' prayer or to any kind of 'spirit' baptism. That connection in the Bible is only made to water baptism.

Again, your 1 Cor 15 argument fails for Paul is not addressing lost sinners on how to be saved but is addressing those who were ALREADY water baptized, who ALREADY made that connection to Christ's death burial and resurrection by being water baptized. Some of them did not believe in the bodily resurrection. Therefore Paul used Christ's death burial and resurrection which they did believe in to refute their denial of their own bodily resurrection. You are reading things into the passage that are not there.

The real baptism in being baptism is not the water but it is Spirit baptism. It is God’s Spirit that crucifies the old man and not being dunked in water. Again, baptisms or washings (baptismos) was imposed on believers until the time of reformation (See Hebrews 9:10). Water baptism itself never did anything alone. It was a person confessing their sins to the Lord Jesus and then the Spirit changing their heart (being baptized and or changed spiritually by the Spirit).

Remember the scenario with Simon the sorcerer? The Spirit did not come upon him and the other people he was with initially. They were water baptized and yet, Simon the sorcerer’s heart was still not right with God. Why? Because he did not receive the baptism of the Spirit.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you believe what the Bible teaches and agree with the Bible on how the Bible defines sin, then you cannot believe in original sin. The Bible says:
--if there were no law then there would be no transgression Romans 4:15.
--sin is transgression of the law 1 John 3:4.
--only accountable people can transgress God's law, Romans 7:8-9.

These 3 passages make the man made idea of original sin impossible. According to the Bible, just being born does not make one a sinner. There must be a law, that law must be transgressed by an accountable person THEN a person is a sinner.

So there does not have to be OS for men to be sinners. Men sin by following in the steps of Adam. Adam was not created a sinner, but Adam was given a law to not eat of a particular tree. Adam being accountable to God knowing what was right and wrong, transgressed God's law when he ate of that tree THEN he became a sinner. We today are not created sinners at birth, but as men are taught right from wrong (Isaiah 7:15-16) men are accountable God and when and only when men transgress God's law do they become sinners. No such thing in the Bible of one being a sinner BEFORE one sins or one being righteous BEFORE one does righteousness. OS sin is not needed for men to be sinners, all that is needed is law, man choosing to transgress that law THEN man becomes a sinner.

Galatians 3:22
“But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.”

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Here is…

A Biblical Case For Repentance:

At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches that "Repentance" means, "Asking God for forgiveness" (Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

"Asking God for forgiveness of sin" can either refer to: The "Sinner's Prayer" (Initial Salvation) (Romans 10:13), and or the seasoned believer "Confessing one's sin" (Continued Salvation) (See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1).

Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin.”

#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).​

#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

(Continued in my next post).

--Nowhere does the NT gospel teach salvation by saying a sinner's prayer, that idea is an invention of man.

--God does not forgive until a person FIRST repents so repentance is not asking God for forgivenss but repentance is making changes that God requires BEFORE God forgives. If one were living in a state of adultery, learns about God's word desiring to become a Christian, then he must FIRST repent by getting out of that state of adultery THEN God forgives. As long as one remains in that state of adultery, one is being IMPENITENT and God does not forgive the impenitent (Romans 2:4-5).

Acts 26:20
"that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance"
2 Chron 7:14
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."
Jonah 3:10
"And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Repentance therefore requires obedience in turning from sin/wickedness and turning to doing obedient works, doing godliness THEN God forgives. God does not UNconditionally forgive apart from repentance and repentance requires obedience in turning.

 

[bbyrd009]

hmm, im not recalling the woman at the well repenting?

Uh no. We are talking about the TOTAL eradication of evil in view here and not evil people dying just as faithful Christians can die. There will be no more death, pain, or sorrow in the New Earth (Christ’s eternal Kingdom).

well, that might obtain someday, the literal corporate thing? That draws one into divining the future? But i suggest that there is a better way to understand that fwiw

That makes absolutely no sense. How so?

The kingdom of heaven is within you

Is the Bible your final Word of authority for all matters of faith and practice?

well, imo Bible is not Word, but pretty much, ya…even though Paul almost surely meant “All writings are beneficial…” i still rely on the Bible mostly from familiarity and force of habit now i guess

 

[Bible Highlighter]

--Nowhere does the NT gospel teach salvation by saying a sinner's prayer, that idea is an invention of man.

--God does not forgive until a person FIRST repents so repentance is not asking God for forgivenss but repentance is making changes that God requires BEFORE God forgives. If one were living in a state of adultery, learns about God's word desiring to become a Christian, then he must FIRST get out of that state of adultery THEN God forgives. As long as one remains in that state of adultery, one is being IMPENITENT and God does not forgive the impenitent (Romans 2:4-5).

Acts 26:20
"that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance"
2 Chron 7:14
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."
Jonah 3:10
"And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Repentance therefore requires obedience in turning from sin/wickedness and turning to doing obedient works, doing godliness THEN God forgives.

This sounds like you are just hitting the disagree button without carefully looking at the points I made with Scripture.

The word “repent” can have a wide variety of meanings based on the context even. Here is an illustrative example:

In other words, the context determines the meaning of what that word means.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

well, that might obtain someday, the literal corporate thing? That draws one into divining the future? But i suggest that there is a better way to understand that fwiw

The kingdom of heaven is within you

well, imo Bible is not Word, but pretty much, ya…even though Paul almost surely meant “All writings are beneficial…” i still rely on the Bible mostly from familiarity and force of habit now i guess

Sorry. No offense, but if the Bible is not your final word of authority for all matters of faith and practice…. We are done talking because there is no standard that we can agree upon.

 

[bbyrd009]

Sorry. No offense, but if the Bible is not your final word of authority for all matters of faith and practice…. We are done talking because there is no standard that we can agree upon.

well i did not say that of course, but i am noticing that even by that standard you dont seem to be having much agreement eh?