James Was Not Talking about Faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation

[Bible Highlighter]

The one baptism is Christ's baptism of the great commission which was commanded, to be taught, that saves, that was administered by humans (disciples), it was how disciples were made and lasts till the end of time. None of these things are ever said about any kind of "spirit" baptism. Note Acts 8, the Spirit sent Phillip to WATER baptize the eunuch for that is how one is saved not by some spirit baptism. If 'spirit' baptism is what saved why the need for Phillip to water baptize? The Spirit could have done that apart from Phillip.



John 3:5-------Spirit ++++++++++ water >>>>>>>>>> in the kingdom
1 Cor 12;13---Spirit ++++++++++baptized >>>>>>>> in one body
Tts 3:5-------Holy Spirit +++++++washing >>>>>>>>> saved

Clearly the Bible shows this is WATER baptism. We already saw that Paul water baptized some of the Corinthians himself 1 Cor 1:14,17.
Paul said "we all" showing the universalism of this baptism among ALL Christians. One cannot be a Christian yet unbaptized..no such thing as an unbaptized Christian. All men have been commanded to be water baptized, the baptism of Christ's great commission that makes one a disciple, that saves that is administered by humans. No human can administer 'spirit' baptism only the Lord administed baptism with the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:11).

This baptism of 1 Cor 12:13 is NECESSARY in order to be saved/be in the body for there is no salvation outside the body of Christ. Since water baptism has been commanded to all men and men can obey that command then if I have not been water baptized therefore not saved that is MY fault, MY culpability. Being baptized with the Holy Spirit is out of my control. Baptism with the HS has NEVER been commanded to anyone therefore cannot be obeyed. So those who are lost (outside the body) are lost due to God's fault and culpability in not having baptized them with the Holy Spirit. Baptism with the HS was never promised to anyone today, it was never commanded to anyone, it does not save, it is not how disciples are made, it does not last till the end of time and not administered by men. All of these things are only true of the water baptism of the great commission.



CONTEXT!!!! In Acts 1:1-5 Jesus was speaking to His Apostles promising only then baptism with the HS, not speaking to anyone today. And it was just the Apostles in Acts 2 that the HS fell upon on.


--Already showed from 1 Cor 1:12-13 one MUST be baptized to be "of" Christ,
--Paul DID water baptize and did not sin.
--1 Cor 1:17 is a not-but ellipsis where emphasis was put on preaching over baptizing but not to the total exclusion of baptizing.

Peter, in speaking about wives, used a not-but ellipsis: "Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price." Peter is saying wives should put more emphasis on the inward adorning over the outward adorning. Peter is NOT literally telling wives to not put on apparel no more than Paul was to not literally baptize (for he DID) but a placement of emphasis on one thing over another but NOT to the exclusion of either.

John 6:27 another not-but ellipsis:​

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life" Jesus is telling them to put more emphasis on the spiritual food over the physical food. Jesus is NOT literally telling them to not work for the physical food they eat for that violates 2 Thessalonians 3:10.

Nothing in the text says Apollos needed to lean about some 'spirit' baptism.

[Bible Highlighter]
#6. Acts of the Apostles 19:1-7 says, “And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve.”
In other words, the believers at Ephesus only knew of John’s baptism of water, and they were not aware of the Holy Ghost. So Paul baptized them into the Holy Ghost by laying his hands on them. So they received the baptism of the Spirit.​

It's water baptism that is the 'name of the Lord' Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47-48. Only God can baptize with the HS (Matt 3:11) no man can baptize with the HS.



Not of works of Eph 2:9 refers to works of merit. Water baptism, obedience to God, is never called a work of merit. If one could work to keep God's law perfectly sinless then that woild be something to boast about. But man's obedience will not be perfect so it is nothing to boast about.​

Sorry, you have water on the brain whenever you read the baptism in the Scriptures. The context determines how that word is used. You cannot enforce your church’s belief over what the Bible says. You have already altered the plain reading 1 Corinthians 1:17 and Romans 10:13. So not sure our discussion is going to get anywhere with this kind of handling of the Word of God. These verses either mean plainly what they say or they don’t. Romans 11:6 says if it is grace it is no more works and if it is works it is no more grace. Again, you cannot in good conscience believe this verse plainly in what it says because you believe you are saved initially by a work.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Again, holy living by faith is the second aspect of salvation and your drawing the wrong conclusion just as Perpetual Belief Alone Proponents do. You cannot in good conscience believe Romans 11:6 without twisting it.

this is kinda funny,

He is no more of a belief alone proponent than a pharisee was..

and PS. Holy living is a result of salvation. Not how one is saved. You can never be saved by how good you are. because you will never meet Gods demand.

 

[Daniel L.]

Hence obedience and works of merit

Eph 2:9, the OT law

So Paul is refering in to both condign and congruous?

Well, if salvation is not of condign works, then it perverts justice, because condign works are an obligation for justice, so you would have to do them first in order to be justified, or else you would be justified without justice, which is impossible with the God of Israel.
So, if not condign works, then it would have to be interpreted as: "not of congruous works" because these are not mandatory for justice, which eliminates your OT Law interpretation, because the OT Law is not congruous, but it is condign and absolutely required for salvation and justice.
Believe it or not, Paul is teaching faith alone without works in general, neither condign nor congruous, so no man can boast.

the Jew could not keep it perfectly, therefore the law could not justify

So, according to you, God gave a Law that is impossible to keep, and everyone who does not keep the "impossible to keep Law" is to be killed. Do you not see the err?

King Davi proving you wrong by keeping the Law perfectly:

Psalm 18:21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
22 For all his judgments were before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.
23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity.

Psalm 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

22 Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies.

55 I have remembered thy name, O Lord, in the night, and have kept thy law.
56 This I had, because I kept thy precepts.

63 I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.

66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments.
67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.

100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.

166 Lord, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.

168 I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.

173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.

condemnation is earned. But salvation is a free gift so it cannot be earned

So the reward of the wicked is merited but the reward of the righteous is not merited. Are you saying the ways of the LORD are not equal? Are not the ways of the wicked and the righteous unequal?

Ezekiel 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

Ezekiel 33:17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.

free gift

"Free gift" ?

Exodus 23:8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.

Proverbs 15:27 He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live.

Proverbs 17:23 A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.

Isaiah 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

this is kinda funny,

He is no more of a belief alone proponent than a pharisee was..

I am not saying T. Bass is a Belief Alone Proponent. From my understanding so far, I think T. Bass believes in Works Alone Salvationism because he holds to the Church of Christ's view of salvation in that water baptism is for Initial Salvation (or it's a part of the gospel) (Which is contradictory to 1 Corinthians 1:17 etc.). I am saying that he is making the same mistake that Belief Alone Proponents do in the fact that they are both misreading verses like Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-12, Romans 11:6, and Titus 3:5. Like Belief Alone Proponents, I believe T. Bass does not understand that Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-12, Romans 11:6, and Titus 3:5 is referring to being saved by God's grace without works only in INITIAL Salvation. Ephesians 2:1 says you have been quickened (made alive). How many times does that happen in a believer's life? Just one time, right? According to Ephesians 2:8: A person is saved by God's grace like a gift. How many times does a person receive a gift? Just one time, right? So grace verses by the apostle Paul that I mentioned above here are referring to Initial Salvation and they are not referring to any other secondary aspect of salvation that follows like Sanctification (See 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14) (Romans 8:13) (Philippians 2:12-13).

and PS. Holy living is a result of salvation. Not how one is saved. You can never be saved by how good you are. because you will never meet Gods demand.

Perpetual Belief Alone-ism is simply turning God's grace into a license for immorality or a safety net to sin under God's name (and their claim to holy living is simply a mirage or an illusion because they don't believe they can lose salvation and thus they can do evil many times with the thinking they are saved).

God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). In other words, things are not as we wish them to be in the Bible.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).​

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).​

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).​

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

(Continued in my next post):

 

[Bible Highlighter]

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).​

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).​

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am not saying T. Bass is a Belief Alone Proponent. I hold to the view that T. Bass believes in Works Alone Salvationism because he thinks water baptism is for Initial Salvation (or it's a part of the gospel). I am saying that he is making the same mistake that Belief Alone Proponents do in the fact that they are both misreading verses like Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-12, Romans 11:6, and Titus 3:5. Like Belief Alone Proponents, I believe T. Bass does not understand that Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-12, Romans 11:6, and Titus 3:5 is referring to being saved by God's grace without works only in INITIAL Salvation. Ephesians 2:1 says you have been quickened (made alive). How many times does that happen in a believer's life? Just one time, right? According to Ephesians 2:8: A person is saved by God's grace like a gift. How many times does a person receive a gift? Just one time, right? So grace verses by the apostle Paul that I mentioned above here are referring to Initial Salvation and they are not referring to any other secondary aspect of salvation that follows like Sanctification (See 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14) (Romans 8:13) (Philippians 2:12-13).

Actually T,Bass is really no different than you. You both espouse a works based salvation. I just have to laugh when to legalists attack each other. Its almost like watching a jew and a muslim fight, Both espouse that the ones in heaven will be the ones who do works, And not based on the grace that God has offered since adam.

Things are not as we wish them to be in the Bible.

I agree,

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

If this is true, we are not really saved.

In fact. this is called begining in the spirit and trying to perfect in the flesh. Paul called the ones who espouse this doctrine foolish

(Here are a List of Verses):

#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).​

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).​

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).​

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

(Continued in my next post):

James is speaking to those who CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH. but only have mere belief. He said they can test their own faith if is is alive or not by looking at their own works. If they claim to have faiht. but have no works (hearers only and not doers) can that claimed faith save them?

well of course. not

He also called it mere belief. which is not true faith.

Many people believe there is one god. And they do well.

But salvation is not based on whether we believe there is one god or not. It is based on if we have faith in his provision for salvation or not.

We also love because he first loved us. No one who has not been born again loves God no matter how much they claim they do. they have no capacity to love, It comes from God.

Thats why John said clearly. whoever sins has never seen God. how we overcome sin? Well according to Jesus it is by the law of love (love the lord your God and your neighbor) A person who has not experienced fully Gods love in new birth has no capacity to love, so all they can do is sin.

where as a person who HAS experienced Gods love in salvation can not continue to live in sin, because of that new birth and Gods love empowers them to change.

 

[farouk]

Actually T,Bass is really no different than you. You both espouse a works based salvation. I just have to laugh when to legalists attack each other. Its almost like watching a jew and a muslim fight, Both espouse that the ones in heaven will be the ones who do works, And not based on the grace that God has offered since adam.


I agree,

If this is true, we are not really saved.

In fact. this is called begining in the spirit and trying to perfect in the flesh. Paul called the ones who espouse this doctrine foolish


James is speaking to those who CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH. but only have mere belief. He said they can test their own faith if is is alive or not by looking at their own works. If they claim to have faiht. but have no works (hearers only and not doers) can that claimed faith save them?

well of course. not

He also called it mere belief. which is not true faith.

Many people believe there is one god. And they do well.

But salvation is not based on whether we believe there is one god or not. It is based on if we have faith in his provision for salvation or not.

We also love because he first loved us. No one who has not been born again loves God no matter how much they claim they do. they have no capacity to love, It comes from God.

Thats why John said clearly. whoever sins has never seen God. how we overcome sin? Well according to Jesus it is by the law of love (love the lord your God and your neighbor) A person who has not experienced fully Gods love in new birth has no capacity to love, so all they can do is sin.

where as a person who HAS experienced Gods love in salvation can not continue to live in sin, because of that new birth and Gods love empowers them to change.

@Eternally Grateful The flesh just does not like "not of works" (Ephesians 2.9).....

 

[robert derrick]

We are to maintain good works, but not that good works maintain our salvation. You are misusing this passage for something it does not say if you are asserting that our works "keep us saved".

Much love!

You are misusing this passage for something it does not say if you are asserting that our works "keep us saved".

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@Eternally Grateful The flesh just does not like "not of works" (Ephesians 2.9).....

Amen

But it means you have to admit you have nothing to offer. and are totally hopeless. spiritually bankrupt.

Thats why Jesus said we must be poor (bankrupt) in spirit to enter the kingdom.

 

[farouk]

Amen

But it means you have to admit you have nothing to offer. and are totally hopeless. spiritually bankrupt.

Thats why Jesus said we must be poor (bankrupt) in spirit to enter the kingdom.

The words of Isaac Watts come to mind:

1. When I survey the wondrous cross
   On which the Prince of glory died,
   My richest gain I count but loss,
   And pour contempt on all my pride.
2. Forbid it, Lord, that I should boast,
   Save in the death of Christ my God!
   All the vain things that charm me most,
   I sacrifice them to His blood.
3. See from His head, His hands, His feet,
   Sorrow and love flow mingled down!
   Did e’er such love and sorrow meet,
   Or thorns compose so rich a crown?
4. Were the whole realm of nature mine,
   That were a present far too small;
   Love so amazing, so divine,
   Demands my soul, my life, my all.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Actually T,Bass is really no different than you. You both espouse a works based salvation. I just have to laugh when to legalists attack each other. Its almost like watching a jew and a muslim fight, Both espouse that the ones in heaven will be the ones who do works, And not based on the grace that God has offered since adam.

Sorry, I don't hold to your labels, my friend. I am merely following what the Bible says. My belief is unlike T.Bass' belief because I actually believe we are INITIALLY and FOUNDATIONALLY saved by God's grace without works. No person can actually put the cart before the horse. T. Bass believes in being saved first by a work like water baptism similar to how the Jews were trying to deceive Christians at the Jerusalem council in that circumcision was necessary to be initially saved (Which is also a work). I believe a Christian is FIRST saved by God's grace without works. If a believer happens to on rare occasion stumble into sin, they can confess of their sins to Jesus to be forgiven of those sins (See 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9, Hebrews 4:16, Luke 18:9-14). This again is not of works. So a believer is INITIALLY and ULTIMATELY saved by God's grace. But as the Bible says, God's grace TEACHES us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12). Your version of grace simply does not teach that because it is a license to sin on some level. But Jude 1:4 warns against turning God's grace into a license for immorality or licentiousness.

Things are not as we wish them to be in the Bible.

I agree,

It's not surprising that you would say this. But we both cannot be right. The Bible is the final word on the matter and I don't believe it supports your belief here. I believe that Christians who hold to Perpetual Belief Alone-ism do not really believe in holy living according to the Bible even though they say they do.

How so? Well, take for example: Gotquestions article on the matter. They make the same contradictory statements that many in the Perpetual Belief Alone camp makes. They say a Christian will generally progress more towards being identified to living holy and yet they contradict themselves by saying that a believer who has backslidden into sin is saved.

Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org

So their consistency on holy living is just a sham. In other words, if a believer can backslide into sin and be saved then they can deceive themselves into thinking they can remain that way and be saved or they can justify sin every once in a while. In short, it's turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

If this is true, we are not really saved.

Think of it like this: If Bob saved Rick from drowning in a lake last year, then it is still true that Rick was saved last year even if Rick ends up later in life to be drowned in that same lake with nobody being around to save him. I say this because Jesus used parables or real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth. This is where Perpetual Belief Alone-ism crumbles. For it cannot be illustrated by way of real world example and align with basic morality.

In fact. this is called begining in the spirit and trying to perfect in the flesh. Paul called the ones who espouse this doctrine foolish

Here is the verse:

Galatians 3:3 says,
“Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

Okay, so what is Paul talking about here? Well, you have to understand that Paul was fighting against a heresy of which I call, "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised (a work) in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24) (Note: Please stop and read these three verses in the King James Bible).

Anyways, the point of Acts 15 is that Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

For if a person thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved (instead of being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ, the gospel, and His mercy), then they would be making a Work of the Law (the Torah or Old Law) the basis of their salvation instead of God's grace. The entrance gate and the foundation of salvation would be circumcision or a law, or work.

This is why Paul spoke in the way he did in Ephesians 2:8-9. He is not referring to all forms of works that were taught to us by the Lord Jesus Himself and His followers after we are saved by God’s grace.

For whenever Paul spoke of the words “law” and “works” in generic terms in a negative light, he was referring to the 613 Laws of Moses under the Old Covenant (or Old Testament) that does not apply as a contract or binding covenant anymore. Paul also is condemning Law ALONE Salvationism, or Works ALONE Salvationism, as well. If this was not the case, then he would be contradicting even himself (See: Titus 1:16, Romans 8:13).

Okay. So what is Paul talking about in Galatians 3:3? Well, lets get some context.

Galatians 3:2 says,
“Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”

So Paul here is referring to Initial Salvation because he asks the Galatian believers if they received the Spirit by the works of the Law or by the hearing of faith. This is about Circumcision for salvation.

For Paul says Galatians 2:3-4,
“But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:”

(Note: See again Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, and Galatians 5:2).

Galatians 3:16-17 NKJV says,
16 “Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.”

This passage says that the Law came 430 years after the Promise made to Abraham. What Law came 430 years afterwards? The 613 Laws of Moses given to Israel. Romans 6:14 says we are not under the Law. This would be the law of Moses and not the Laws of Christ.

So in context, in Galatians 3:3: Paul is referring to OT Law and or believer wrongfully thinking he had to be “Circumcised to be Saved” when he refers to being perfected in the flesh after having begun in the Spirit. Begun what in the Spirit? The Sanctification Process. See Romans 8:13.

For Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9:21,
“To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.” Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

Acts of the Apostles 13:39 says,
“... ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.”

Romans 8:2 says,
“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”

So keeping the NT Law of Christ makes us free from the OT Law of sin and death. The OT Law is called the Law of sin and death because you could be stoned for disobeying the OT Law. This is not the case with the Laws of Christ under the New Covenant.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The words of Isaac Watts come to mind:

1. When I survey the wondrous cross
   On which the Prince of glory died,
   My richest gain I count but loss,
   And pour contempt on all my pride.
2. Forbid it, Lord, that I should boast,
   Save in the death of Christ my God!
   All the vain things that charm me most,
   I sacrifice them to His blood.
3. See from His head, His hands, His feet,
   Sorrow and love flow mingled down!
   Did e’er such love and sorrow meet,
   Or thorns compose so rich a crown?
4. Were the whole realm of nature mine,
   That were a present far too small;
   Love so amazing, so divine,
   Demands my soul, my life, my all.

Not of works lest anyone should boast. Amen

 

[Bible Highlighter]

James is speaking to those who CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH. but only have mere belief. He said they can test their own faith if is is alive or not by looking at their own works. If they claim to have faiht. but have no works (hearers only and not doers) can that claimed faith save them?

well of course. not

He also called it mere belief. which is not true faith.

Many people believe there is one god. And they do well.

But salvation is not based on whether we believe there is one god or not. It is based on if we have faith in his provision for salvation or not.

When James says that the devil's believe there is one God he is alluding to the 1st greatest commandment that New Covenant believers are under.

Mark 12:29-30
“...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.”

James knows that if you claim to love God you will also love your neighbor.

For the apostle John says:
“If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?” (1 John 4:20).

This was the whole point James brought up such words found in James 2:17-19, and James 2:24. The point by James as shown in the beginning of the chapter was that the Christians he was writing to were showing favor to the rich brethren and not showing any favor to the poor brethren. In short, they were not loving their neighbor or brother. They were breaking the Royal Law of love (Which is to love God and others).

Anyways, your belief here is contradictory or self destructive because you basically said salvation does not include works and yet you say works is necessary to show that you are saved. So works is a necessary part of the salvation equation according to you because you say they need to be there to show you have been saved (past tense all the way unto eternity). You believe God forces a person to be a certain way after they make a one time decision for Jesus Christ.

While believers are changed by the new birth and God's love, they still need to work out their salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12) (Which is what you ignore).

We still have free will in regards to salvation. For...

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​

We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

So things are not as you say, my friend. We have to fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life (See: 1 Timothy 6:12). But in your view, we are not even in a fight. But James 1:12 talks about this fight.

James 1:12
“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.”

Ephesians 6:12
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

Jesus says:
“And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:26-27).

Great was the fall of that house.

Skip up to Matthew 7:21-23 to get the context of what happened to certain believers. They did not DO what Jesus said and that is why they were told by the Lord Jesus to depart from Him at the Judgment.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Not of works lest anyone should boast. Amen

Again, in verses like Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-12, Romans 11:6, and Titus 3:5: Paul was emphasizing how we are initially saved by God's grace without works because of the heresy of “Circumcision Salvationism” that was going around (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, and Galatians 5:2). “Circumcision Salvationism” was the false belief that said a Christian had to first be initially saved by circumcision (Which would mean that if a believer thought this way, they would be making circumcision (a work) the entrance gate and foundation of their salvation instead of God's grace. Hence, they would be saved by Works ALONE Salvationism without God's grace (i.e. without being initially saved by God's grace without works). Being saved by God's grace without works is the 1st aspect of salvation. But Paul does not disagree with the secondary aspect of salvation that follows, though. For Paul basically says a person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Paul says in Romans 8:13 that if you live after the flesh (sin) you will die, but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the power of the Spirit you will live (live eternally).

 

[farouk]

Not of works lest anyone should boast. Amen

Indeed; Ephesians 2.9.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Indeed; Ephesians 2.9.

Then you must believe Paul contradicts himself in Titus 1:16. For he teaches that there are vain deceivers who can deny God by being reprobate unto every good work. Can a person who denies God be saved? Surely not. So good works is needed as a part of the salvation equation. In Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul is referring to INITIAL Salvation because Ephesians 2:1 says we have been quickened (made alive). How many times is a believer quickened? Just one time they have been made alive or born again, right? Ephesians 2:8 says we are saved by God's grace like the receiving of a gift. How many times do people receive a gift? Just one time, right? Generally people do not re-wrap up the same gift to give it to them again. So Ephesians 2:8-9 is referring to Initial Salvation. Paul never says that you are forever saved by God's grace without works of any kind in your life. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

 

[farouk]

Then you must believe Paul contradicts himself in Titus 1:16. For he teaches that there are vain deceivers who can deny God by being reprobate unto every good work. Can a person who denies God be saved? Surely not. So good works is needed as a part of the salvation equation. In Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul is referring to INITIAL Salvation because Ephesians 2:1 says we have been quickened (made alive). How many times is a believer quickened? Just one time they have been made alive or born again, right? Ephesians 2:8 says we are saved by God's grace like the receiving of a gift. How many times do people receive a gift? Just one time, right? Generally people do not re-wrap up the same gift to give it to them again. So this is referring to Initial Salvation. Paul never says that you are forever saved by God's grace without works of any kind in your life. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

Saved then lost is simply unbiblical.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Saved then lost is simply unbiblical.

Not so.

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32): One can say the prodigal son was acting immature, but was the prodigal son saved while he was living it up with prostitutes? No. How do we know? Well, when the prodigal son came home to his father, his father said he was “dead” and “alive AGAIN” two times within the parable. His father also said that he was “lost” and now he is “found”, too. Generally when we speak of the lost in the Bible, it is referring to those who are not saved. So the prodigal son was dead spiritually while he was living it up with prostitutes, and he became alive AGAIN spiritually when he came back home to his father and sought forgiveness with him. This same truth is expressed in James 5:19-20, as well.

 

[farouk]

Not so.

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32): One can say the prodigal son was acting immature, but was the prodigal son saved while he was living it up with prostitutes? No. How do we know? Well, when the prodigal son came home to his father, his father said he was “dead” and “alive AGAIN” two times within the parable. His father also said that he was “lost” and now he is “found”, too. Generally when we speak of the lost in the Bible, it is referring to those who are not saved. So the prodigal son was dead spiritually while he was living it up with prostitutes, and he became alive AGAIN spiritually when he came back home to his father and sought forgiveness with him. This same truth is expressed in James 5:19-20, as well.

Saved then lost then saved then lost then saved then lost.....is foreign to Scripture.

 

[marks]

You are misusing this passage for something it does not say if you are asserting that our works "keep us saved".

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

I suggest you really examine this passage, for what it does, and does not say. Nothing in this verse teaches us that you must do good works to maintain your salvation. It tells us that the one who is born of God "keeps himself". 1 John 3 tells us one way that happens, as we have confidence in God's promise to us, that when we see Jesus, we will in fact be like Him.

No one knows the course of their own life, and what they will do in the years to come. No one has any real assurance that they are truly living without sin today. No one is a capable judge of themself. Paul shows this plainly in 1 Corinthians 3.

Our thoughts and behaviors arise from the flesh or from the spirit. The works of the spirit are the works of faith, the flesh does not do works in faith. The flesh is God's enemy, and that does not change.

So any thoughts entertained or behaviors that are from the flesh are not of faith, and therefore are sin. And how easily it slips in! How easily we can stop monitoring our thoughts, and start to go with some fleshy reasoning or fear or reaction or reply or whatever it is.

It's not just the "big 10", but a life lived in loving service to God and man, as we fully trust in Jesus' saving grace. Who maintains that at all times? May we all! But if we are doing works thinking that this is going to "keep us in good with God", then we've stopped doing works of faith in loving service to others, and we're doing works to buy our way into heaven.

The only works of faith are those we do out of our relationship with God, not to have that relationship, but because we do.

Much love!