James Was Not Talking about Faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation

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Sounds like you are speaking from both sides of your mouth. Which is it? Does sin cost you your salvation or not?

Much love!

Believers have to confess and forsake sin in order to have mercy (See: Proverbs 28:13). For if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7). Paul says in 2 Corinthians 7:1, let us cleanse us ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. In your view of sin and salvation there is no perfecting holiness in the fear of God because you think a believer can sin and still be saved. There is no work out your salvation with fear and trembling in your belief according to Philippians 2:12. There is no 1 Timothy 6:12 in your belief system that commands of us: “Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,..” For in your belief there is no need to fight the good fight of faith so as to lay hold on final salvation because you can sin and still be saved according to your belief. Your belief promotes that one can live like the devil or act like him and yet they can be saved. But Jesus says this:

“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.” (John 8:44-47).

Paul does not agree with your belief that the teachings of Jesus do not apply today.
For Paul says:

“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Your doctrine is not in agreement with godliness because it teaches that a believer can abide in sins like murder, etcetera, and yet, they are still magically saved.

This is the same lie that the devil was pushing in the garden of Eden.

“Ye shall not surely die” (Genesis 3:4).

For basically the serpent told Eve that she would not die if she were to break God's command.
This is the same lie you are pushing. It's the same ole lie from the serpent or the devil.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To me, the real heart of this matter is here:

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

This is what we want. We want to live righteous, holy, pure, fruitful lives, is that not so?

No.... this is not possible for you to purify yourself according to 1 John 3:3 because you have tied your legs before you can even run the race because you say you can sin and still be saved. Oh, and yes. We are in a race. It's the kind of race that you have no idea that we are in.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 says:
“Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”

Paul says he can be a castaway if he does not keep his body under subjection. Paul runs to obtain the incorruptible crown. James speaks of the same thing here:

“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

James is saying that by our resisting temptation of sin in this life, we will receive the crown of life (i.e. salvation). Your belief says you can sin and still be saved or to follow the serpent's belief that says: “Ye shall not surely die” (Genesis 3:4).

"Hope" in the Bible is the expected outcome of our faith. We believe Jesus, and Jesus promises us resurrection, so we expect to be resurrected. This is having the hope of the resurrection.

Isolating verses at the expense of others is the problem here. Yes, I believe we are saved by God's grace by believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (Which is believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen the third day - for our salvation). No person can save themselves by works when they first come to the Lord Jesus. We all need to first be saved by God's grace without works when we come to the Lord and make that our foundation. But after we are saved by God's grace, we need to live righteously as part of God's plan of salvation. For God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). Your version of grace cannot do that because it does not deny ungodliness because you believe that a believer can continue in sin so that grace may abound.

While you may agree with the gospel message that we must believe in for salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), you fail to recognize or accept the CALL OF THE GOSPEL in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. Granted, this is not the gospel, but it is it is the CALL of the gospel. This call is... God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth.

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: : Whereunto he called you by our gospel,...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

Sanctification of the Spirit in this passage is referring to living holy according to looking at the context (i.e. looking at the verse before it and the ones after).

 

[robert derrick]

James 2, James was writing to those who were ALREADY Christians ("my brethren") and admonishing them, giving them a warning/heeding about losing their salvation by a false TYPE of faith...

James 2:14
"What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?"

The present tense of the verse shows a man who continues to say he has faith but continues to not have works can that faith save him? Obviously no.

James knows faith can save but in this verse James is speaking about "THAT faith" a particular TYPE of faith that does not save. The NLT renders it 'Can that kind of faith save anyone?'

That kind or type of faith in this verse that cannot save is a faith that is continually void of obedience to God's will. That TYPE of faith cannot save anyone, it cannot save the sinner alienated from God nor can it keep saved the one who already is a Christian. James is warning those Christians to keep from having that KIND or TYPE of faith. The TYPE or KIND of faith that does save is a faith that includes obedience to God's will. James echos Christ's words...

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21
"What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?" James 2:14

There is a polar opposite difference between "saying" and "doing" and the TYPE of faith that just "says" yet void of "DOING" cannot save. James 2:14 therefore being saved or not depends totally on one having both an ongoing, sustained faith AND obedient works in doing God's will.

James knows faith can save but in this verse James is speaking about "THAT faith" a particular TYPE of faith that does not save. The NLT renders it 'Can that kind of faith save anyone?'

Well put. There are two kinds of faith spoken of in James, beginning with the faith that hears only but do not, and hearers that do.

Scripture is rebuking the kind of faith that only agrees with the gospel, but does not obey the gospel.

These are hearers that do not openly reject the gospel and call Jesus cursed, but neither are they believers that obey Him as Lord, Lord.

God is not seeking them that only hear and agree with Him, but them that hear and obey Him:

And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

The OP has a cherished doctrine of his own, that is crafty, but not true.

He pushed this teaching against justification by works, until the time came when he plainly said that Paul was speaking of faith that saves, and James did not speak of faith that saves:

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

That would be speaking of faith that saves or not.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Philippians 3:20-21 LITV
20) For our citizenship is in Heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21) who will transform our body of humiliation, for it to be conformed to His body of glory, according to the working of Him to be able even to subject all things under Himself.

This promise only applies to those who are walking in newness of life (i.e. honoring the resurrection of Jesus Christ). Paul speaks about in verse 10 (Philippians 3:10) that he may know the power of his resurrection in being made conformable unto his death. To walk that perfect walk as Christ has done (1 John 2:6). Paul says this so that he might attain unto the resurrection of the dead (verse 11).

10 “That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.” (Philippians 3:10-11).

Romans 6 talks more about walking in the newness of life (mirroring the resurrection by our holy walk).

“Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Romans 6:4-7).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

James knows faith can save but in this verse James is speaking about "THAT faith" a particular TYPE of faith that does not save. The NLT renders it 'Can that kind of faith save anyone?'

Well put. There are two kinds of faith spoken of in James, beginning with the faith that hears only but does not: it is the kind of faith that only agrees with the gospel, but does not obey the gospel.

These are hearers that do not openly reject the gospel and call Jesus cursed, but neither are they believers that obey Him as Lord, Lord.

The OP has a cherished doctrine of his/her own, that is crafty, but not true.

I believe there are...

Two Sides of the Coin of Faith:

The 1st Side of the Coin of Faith:

Faith starts off as a belief or trust in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (John 3:16). We are first (initially) saved by God's grace through faith without the deeds of the law or works ALONE (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved initially and foundationally by God's grace and mercy like the receiving of a gift (Which is a process of salvation that does not involve works). We believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We call upon the name of the Lord seeking forgiveness with Him (Romans 10:13, Luke 18:9-14). We receive or invite Christ into our life (John 1:12, Revelation 3:20). If a believer stumbles into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to redeem that sin; But they go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus Christ in order to be forgiven of it (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, Hebrews 4:16). This is all a part of how we are saved by God's grace through faith. No man can save themselves by Works Alone without God's grace. Many people who believe in God, and yet they have not accepted Jesus as their Savior think that God will outweigh their good deeds over their bad deeds. Salvation does not work like that. For they do not realize that their bad deeds will condemn them. They need to have their past slate of sins wiped out. This is where God's grace through faith in Jesus comes in.

But faith does not end with being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The journey of faith continues with...​

The 2nd Side of the Coin of Faith:

#1. Faith manifests itself with the “work of faith” mentioned by the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Protestants seem to separate works from faith in a way that goes beyond how James describes them. Yet, the apostle Paul mentions that there is a “work of faith.” The Bible talks about the “work of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 15:58) (1 Corinthians 16:10), and I imagine if I asked a Protestant Christian if the “work” within the “work of the Lord” is separate from “the Lord,” they most likely would say they are not separated. But when it comes to the “work of faith,” they will say that works and faith are separate things (Which in my view is not being consistent or honest with oneself).


#2. The word “faithful” is also mentioned 54 times in the New Testament King James Bible. The dictionary defines faithful as:

Faithful:
(adjective):

1. true to one's word, promises, vows, etc.
2. steady in allegiance or affection; loyal; constant: faithful friends.
3. reliable, trusted, or believed.
4. strict or thorough in the performance of duty: a faithful worker.
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Source:

Definition of faithful | Dictionary.com

This definition is supported by the context in many verses in the Bible. It does not take a detective to figure out that the word “faithful” derives from the word “faith.” They are related and connected to each other. A person is loyal (or faithful) to their master based on their faith in him in what he says. For example: 2 Thessalonians 3:3 says, “But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.” So the Lord is said to be faithful in this verse. How is the Lord faithful? Is it by a belief alone? No. The Lord is faithful to strengthening us (or in establishing us) to keep us from evil. The Lord does something when He is faithful. Revelation 2:10 says to a particular church, “be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” Many Protestants have tried to come up with tricky ways to not apply this verse to their own life. I believe they do not accept what this verse plainly says because it contradicts their “Faith Alone” teaching that was handed down to them from Martin Luther (the founder of Protestantism).

#3. Romans 10:17. It says,

“So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.”
(Romans 10:17).
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How do we get our faith? According to Romans 10:17, we get our faith by hearing the Word of God. I believe that the “Word of God” can refer to either Jesus, and or the Bible (depending on the context) (Note: See this thread here to see the connection in Scripture between the Living Word and the Bible). Anyways, in this particular instance in Romans 10:17: I believe the “Word of God” refers to the words of Jesus (which are found in the Holy Bible). We must receive the words of Jesus because if we do not, His words will judge us on the last day (See: John 12:48). This would also include the words of His apostles, as well. For Jesus says, “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” (Matthew 10:40). So faith is basically everything in my New Testament because it gives us an account of the words of Jesus and His followers. We get our faith by believing and obeying what Jesus and His apostles said. Faith is everything in your New Testament, and faith is not just a belief alone in Jesus.


#4. Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 11 gives us an account of what faith does. “By faith Noah, ... prepared an ark to the saving of his house;...” (Hebrews 11:7). “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:” (Hebrews 11:17). “By faith Moses, ... refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;” (Hebrews 11:24-25). So by faith, the great men of God obeyed God and or put forth holy actions (or the “work of faith”). So in Hebrews 11, the word “faith” is used to represent something a believer does. This faith also rejects sin in one's life, for Moses suffered with the affliction of God's people rather than enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season.

#5. Peter failed to continue to walk on the water (Which is a work of God).
What was the reason why Peter later failed to continue to walk on the water? Jesus said, “O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?” (Matthew 14:31). This again proves that the work of God that can operate in our life is tied to our faith. For in Ephesians 2:9 it refers to Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism (without God's grace) because it is the kind of work that a man would boast in himself by doing it. But Ephesians 2:10 talks about an entirely different kind of work. It is the work of God done through the believer. These are the works that we are created unto Christ Jesus to do. They are the works of God done through us. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). For it is God who works in us to do of His good will and pleasure (Philippians 2:13). So any good we do, all praise, glory, thanks, and honor is given to our Lord Jesus Christ and or to the glorious Trinity (or Godhead).

#6. Paul also mentions that there is an “obedience to the faith" (or obedience of faith) at the beginning and end of the book of Romans (See: Romans 1:5, Romans 16:26). Romans 6 says,

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Romans 6:16).
​

So we have to have obedience unto righteousness. For Romans 6 also says, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22). So our obedience unto righteousness is being servants of God and having fruit unto holiness with having the end of everlasting life. This is all a part of the obedience to the faith. There is no such thing as the disobedience of the faith. For Ephesians 5 says, “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:3-6).
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(Continued in next post):

 

[Bible Highlighter]

#7. John 3:36 (The Greek word “apeitheō” used in John 3:36 for the English words: “believeth not” (KJB) is translated as “obey not” or “disobedient” in other English bible verses. For example: 1 Peter 3:1, and 1 Peter 3:20 translates apeitheō as “obey not” or “disobedient” and it is used context to being disobedient in regards to one’s righteous conduct (Whereas John 3:36 is translated as believeth not” in the King James Bible). Some translations render the KJB’s John 3:36 “believeth not" as “obey not” in other Translations (NLT, ESV, BLB, NASB, ASV, EXB, GNT). In other words, sometimes the words “believeth not” is synonymous with “obey not” (depending on the context). In fact, you can check this Greek word for yourself and it's usage here at BlueLetterBible.

G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
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#8. Works makes a person’s faith perfect (James 2:22).

This connects in with 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Doctrine and instruction in righteousness is profitable so that the man of God may be perfect unto all good works. Anyways, the point here is that your faith is perfected by works. Thus, this shows us that there is a symbiotic relationship between faith and works that cannot be separated.

#9. 2 Corinthians 5:7 says: “We walk by faith.” So faith is not something whereby you do nothing but believe. We are to walk by faith. Walking is an action.

#10. Examine whether you be in the faith - 2 Corinthians 13:5. How do we do this? Well, this is by proving Christ is in you. How can we show that we know the Lord? By keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). However, the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commands is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). So keeping His commands is tied to knowing the Lord, and knowing the Lord is in us is a part of our examination of whether we are in the faith or not (2 Corinthians 13:5).

#11. Galatians 5:6 says, “faith which worketh by love.”
Paul says in context within Galatians:

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Galatians 5:13-14).
​

So faith works by love. It works in love by loving one another. Faith is not just a belief alone.


#12. Philippians 2:17 talks about “the service of your faith.” Service is a form of work. So our faith will have service or work attached. So there is no faith that is alone or remains as a belief alone. True faith will have it's service.

#13. 2 Thessalonians 3:2 says, “And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.” This is suggesting that faith is not a belief alone whereby we can live wickedly. For it says that we may be delivered from wicked men for (because) all men have not faith. So the opposite of wickedness is holiness. So this verse is implying indirectly that our good and moral conduct is tied to the faith.

#14. 1 Timothy 5:8 says, “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” An infidel is an unbeliever. If faith is exclusively a belief alone then how can a person deny the faith by their misconduct?

#15. 1 Timothy 6:12 says, “Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,” We have to FIGHT the good fight of faith in order to lay hold on eternal life. So faith is something we have to fight for and it is not a belief alone.

#16. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 describes those who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. They are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. These types are said to be reprobate concerning the faith (See: 2 Timothy 3:8). So faith is not a belief alone in Jesus whereby one’s conduct is not in line with true godliness.

#17. James 2:1 says, “My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.” This means faith is not a belief alone in Jesus, but it also includes one’s actions in not neglecting to love the poor brethren while one shows favor to the rich brethren.

#18. Jude says:

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 1:3-4).
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Verse 3 says that we are to contend for the faith and verse 4 says there are certain ungodly men who turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness. Meaning, they are teaching that a person can sin and still be saved by God’s grace. But we are told to contend for the faith.


#19. Revelation 13:10 says,

“Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison.
Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword.
This means that God’s holy people must endure
persecution patiently and remain faithful.”
(Revelation 13:10) (NLT).

“He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:
he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.”
(Revelation 13:10 (KJB).
​

In other words, this is saying that believers can sometimes go to prison and or be killed as a part of the faith (or in being faithful, i.e. the faith).


#20. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Can a dead faith save anyone?

#21. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). The same word “justified" is used for both faith and works. Most Christians will not argue against how we are justified by faith in regards to salvation. But this same word “justified" is used in reference for works, too.

#22. James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18).
For James says,

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith,
and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works,
and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”
(James 2:18).
​

James appears to criticize the person who has faith without works by saying show me your faith without works, and I will show my faith by my works. This means faith and works are tied together because works is how one shows their faith.


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So in conclusion:

Faith is like a coin that has two sides to it. The first side of the coin of faith is trusting or believing in God's grace and seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and believing the gospel, and the second side (or other side) of the coin of faith is the “work of faith.” (that is a part of the Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit that helps us to live a holy life).

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" (Hebrews 12:14).

“And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16).

 

[robert derrick]

You do know that James was referring to Abraham's faith in God to provide, right?

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

That is the faith James was referring to that requires works; as in leading by example; not faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works.

James was rebuking the church for sharing their faith in God to provide to the poor without meeting their immediate needs of those poor that were about to perish from the element and starvation from the bounty collected at church service. It is the church's faith in God to provide being issued to the poor that will not profit the poor nor save the poor, seeing the church's faith is dead without leading by example.

It is understandable for why many read James verses out of context thinking it applies also to the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, but no. When reading verse 14, one should do so in context.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

So the church nor man is not justified nor righteous when sharing faith in God to provide to the poor if the church nor that believer cares to lead by example to the poor by meeting the immediate needs of the poor with what God had provided for them.

It is the church's faith in God to provide that is dead in the eyes of the poor for why the church's faith in God to provide to the poor, will not profit the poor nor save the poor from the elements or starvation when the church does not care to lead by example.

James was never talking about the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation as if needing works, because James was rebuking the church for getting out of helping the poor by callously sharing their faith in God to provide to the poor without meeting the immediate needs of the poor that were perishing.

Paul testifies to faith in Jesus Christ in salvation which is without works for why believing in Jesus Christ for salvation is the Good News for man.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

You do know that James was referring to Abraham's faith in God to provide, right?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Believers in Scripture know James was referring to Abraham having offered up Isaac.

Context is key.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Wow, how about that. That is like the very middle verse of the entire chapter. Talk about context.

God has foreseen every lie of the devil given to man to corrupt His Word, and so has Scripture written in such a perfect way so as to plainly rebuke the lie, for anyone who is willing to believe what is plainly written by Scripture, rather than their own special little false doctrine.

The faith of our Lord Jesus Christ is the faith that saves and and justifies them that obey Him: that is the teaching of Scripture in James that began with not being hearers only, but doers of the word of faith.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe there are two aspects of salvation.

#1. God's grace through faith without works (When we are first saved).
#2. Living holy by God's power by the Spirit of God (Which is the next step After we are saved by God's grace).​

In other words, I see the gospel as only 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (Which is a part of the 1st aspect of salvation in being saved by God's grace). Note: Yes, I am aware of the other verses that talk about the gospel but I believe it is saying the same thing as 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (the gospel) is about being INITIALLY SAVED and FOUNDATIONALLY SAVED by God's grace without works by faith. If a person believes this... they are obeying the gospel. But that's not our only instructions as a part of God's plan of salvation. Salvation continues in the Sanctification Process in living holy by the power of God (Which is the second side of the coin of faith).

For many do not understand that there is a CALL of the Gospel. It's not the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), but it is the CALL of the gospel.

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel,...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

It's the same truth expressed in Titus 2:11-12.

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

Meaning... God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously. But this is AFTER we are first saved by God's grace (Which is a process of salvation that is without works). We are FIRST SAVED by God's grace without works, and then.... we live holy by God's Spirit.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

When I first accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior, and sought forgiveness of my past life of sin with Him, and believed in the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, I was being initially saved by God's grace. I was saved. But salvation does not stop there. Salvation continues with the Sanctification Process by the power of God working within a believer. If a believer justifies sin in this life, they are not going to make it. But if a believer rejects God's grace and makes it all about works and no grace ever, that is also equally problematic. The Church of Christ makes it all about works for salvation. There is no grace. This is what Paul was arguing against. A person needs to initially saved by God's grace and mercy without works. This is the first aspect of salvation. However, the church of Christ tries to get a person saved by being water baptized to be initially saved. But this is basing one's salvation on works, and not on God's grace. Yes, we do need to live holy and do good works as a part of God's plan of salvation, but this is only AFTER we are saved by God's grace and not before. We cannot put the cart before the horse.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

James knows faith can save but in this verse James is speaking about "THAT faith" a particular TYPE of faith that does not save. The NLT renders it 'Can that kind of faith save anyone?'

Well put. There are two kinds of faith spoken of in James, beginning with the faith that hears only but do not, and hearers that do.

Scripture is rebuking the kind of faith that only agrees with the gospel, but does not obey the gospel.

These are hearers that do not openly reject the gospel and call Jesus cursed, but neither are they believers that obey Him as Lord, Lord.

God is not seeking them that only hear and agree with Him, but them that hear and obey Him:

And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

The OP has a cherished doctrine of his own, that is crafty, but not true.

He pushed this teaching against justification by works, until the time came when he plainly said that Paul was speaking of faith that saves, and James did not speak of faith that saves:

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

That would be speaking of faith that saves or not.

Matt 7
"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"

"And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand"

 

[marks]

So yes. You have been espousing a belief that justifies evil, and you don't even know it.
Your belief violates basic morality and it's scary stuff.

I guess this is why I had you on ignore before. Such nonsense!

Much love!

 

[marks]

No.... this is not possible for you to purify yourself according to 1 John 3:3 because you have tied your legs before you can even run the race because you say you can sin and still be saved.

If you want to presume that I have this "Happy go lucky" attitude about sin, and then spew that onto the forum, that's your business, and for God to deal with you about. I expect you will reject my words, just the same, I urge you to consider.

You've expressed the exact same thing that I have, that sins don't disqualify you from eternal life, and you support that in yourself, and condemn it in me. What is that called? There is a word for it. The only difference between us is not that "you can sin and still be saved", no, it's when I say, sins will not remove your eternal life in Christ, and you say, well, maybe enough of them will. That's the actual difference.

But for some reason you have to make it into something else, something . . . . well, I'll leave you to come up with that word.

Much love!

 

[marks]

#1. God's grace through faith without works (When we are first saved).
#2. Living holy by God's power by the Spirit of God (Which is the next step After we are saved by God's grace).

If you have one, you will have the other in increasing degree throughout the remainder of your terrestrial life. By grace you are saved through faith, now being recreated by Christ to walk in His works.

Salvation produces works, but salvation is not maintained by works, salvation is always and only in Christ, by trusting Him to save.

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you have one, you will have the other in increasing degree throughout the remainder of your terrestrial life. By grace you are saved through faith, now being recreated by Christ to walk in His works.

Salvation produces works, but salvation is not maintained by works, salvation is always and only in Christ, by trusting Him to save.

Much love!

James disagrees with you.

The same thing is said in the King James Bible using other words.

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24) (KJB).

 

[bbyrd009]

“I came that you might have death, more abundantly?”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you don't then believe the Bible, because I'm just telling you what it says.

If you want to presume that I have this "Happy go lucky" attitude about sin, and then spew that onto the forum, that's your business, and for God to deal with you about. I expect you will reject my words, just the same, I urge you to consider.

You've expressed the exact same thing that I have, that sins don't disqualify you from eternal life, and you support that in yourself, and condemn it in me. What is that called? There is a word for it. The only difference between us is not that "you can sin and still be saved", no, it's when I say, sins will not remove your eternal life in Christ, and you say, well, maybe enough of them will. That's the actual difference.

But for some reason you have to make it into something else, something . . . . well, I'll leave you to come up with that word.

Much love!

Again, you made statements as shown by the post numbers I provided that points to what you said as saying a believer can abide sin and still be saved by having a belief on Jesus. If this is not what you are saying, then you need to clarify what you meant. But I don’t think that this is a misunderstanding here. You believe that a Christian can abide in sin and be saved on some level because according to your belief a Christian does not lose their salvation when they sin. But this is exactly what we see in the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32) when the father said to his son who came home and sought forgiveness with him that he was “dead” and “alive AGAIN.” James 5:19-20 confirms this same truth.

I believe Christians need to confess sin in order to be forgiven and they do so with the intention of never sinning again. Believers are to strive to live holy lives and not justify sin while under God’s grace.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

“I came that you might have death, more abundantly?”

Not at all. We can have life more abundantly if we abide in Christ. This starts with trusting in His grace without works by faith, and then it continues by faith in the next step in God’s plan of salvation by entering the Sanctification Process (Which includes living holy, works, putting away sin, etcetera). Eternal life is a person and not a super power. Eternal life (Jesus) is for a believer if they continue to abide in Jesus (Who is eternal life). For Jesus is the way the truth and the LIFE (John 14:6). You cannot have salvation without Jesus. The way we can have an assurance that we know the Lord if we keep His commandments (1 John 2:3). The person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). What truth is not in them? Jesus. For Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6).

 

[bbyrd009]

Not at all. We can have life more abundantly if we abide in Christ. This starts with trusting in His grace without works by faith, and then it continues by faith in the next step in God’s plan of salvation by entering the Sanctification Process (Which includes living holy, works, putting away sin, etcetera). Eternal life is a person and not a super power. Eternal life (Jesus) is for a believer if they continue to abide in Jesus (Who is eternal life). For Jesus is the way the truth and the LIFE (John 14:6). You cannot have salvation without Jesus. The way we can have an assurance that we know the Lord if we keep His commandments (1 John 2:3). The person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). What truth is not in them? Jesus. For Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6).

i meant to speak to the “eternal life” bit :)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The Church of Christ makes it all about works for salvation. There is no grace.

This simply is not true.

If anyone has read any of my posts, they have seen over and over again where I have shown from the Bible that salvation is based upon God's grace and man's obedience:

Noah built an ark (man's obedience) in order to be receive God's grace (salvation from the flood).
Naaman dipped 7 times in the Jordan (mans' obedience) in order to receive God's grace (healing of his disease).
The blind man washed his eyes in the pool (man's obedience) in order to receive God's grace (sight).

Man's obedience and God's grace are not mutually exclusive. In the 3 examples I gave above, obedience and grace can and do co-exist. God has joined the two together which no man can ever separate with his own ideas (Proverbs 14:12).

God's grace is not unconditional else all men will be saved unconditionally (Titus 2:11) but all men will not be saved (Matthew 7:13). As seen in each of the 3 examples, reception of God's grace was CONDITIONAL upon man's obedience and man's obedience did not earn/merit God's grace. Man's obedience is simply meeting a necessary prerequisite God has placed upon receiving His grace.

Paul refutes the idea that salvation is by grace alone in Romans 6. Even though the Christian is saved by grace that does not give the Christian license to sin for Christians are those who are dead to sin. For those who continue to sin are serving "sin unto death" (Romans 6:16). Since sin is transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4) then the only solution to sin is OBEDIENCE to God's law in order to keep from serving sin unto death.

Therefore salvation takes man's obedience to keep from serving sin unto death AND it takes God's grace because man's obedience will not be perfectly sinless. In the 3 examples above, man's obedience put man in a position to receive God's grace...Noah built an ark thereby putting him in a position to receive God's grace (salvation from the flood). Had he disobeyed and not built the ark he would have drowned because he failed to put himself in a position to receive God's gift of salvation from the flood.

Therefore salvation is a combination, a synergy that requires BOTH man's obedience and God's grace thereby God and man BOTH have a role in man's salvation. Obedient works is man's role in salvation therefore obviously obedience to God's will is a great truth taught among the church of Christ because there is no salvation apart from obedience. God will not save those who continue in disobedience/unrighteousness...he that continues to not do righteousness continues to not be of God (1 John 3:10)....God accepts those who work righteousness (Acts of the Apostles 10:35).[/QUOTE]

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you don't then believe the Bible, because I'm just telling you what it says.

If you want to presume that I have this "Happy go lucky" attitude about sin, and then spew that onto the forum, that's your business, and for God to deal with you about. I expect you will reject my words, just the same, I urge you to consider.

You've expressed the exact same thing that I have, that sins don't disqualify you from eternal life, and you support that in yourself, and condemn it in me. What is that called? There is a word for it. The only difference between us is not that "you can sin and still be saved", no, it's when I say, sins will not remove your eternal life in Christ, and you say, well, maybe enough of them will. That's the actual difference.

But for some reason you have to make it into something else, something . . . . well, I'll leave you to come up with that word.

Much love!

That’s an ad hominem. I believe the Bible just fine. I believe you are the one who is not taking all the words of the Bible into account in what it says plainly here. For you have not provided any satisfactory answers to the verses I put forth to you that refutes your belief.

For example: You believe Jesus taught salvation by the Law by faith and this is why you disregard verses like Matthew 5:28-30 applying to the life of the believer today. But show me where the apostle Paul and or others taught this kind of warning on sin has changed? In fact, Paul says that those who do not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness is proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). This is important to understand because James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.