It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial
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Lol. I know. If you were having to defend Pretrib would you not be reluctant to engage?
None of them can address and rebut anything in the Op. They are all ducking around it.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Oh, so you want to claim that those seven trumpets of wrath are NOT part of the seventh seal?
Paul is talking about the day of the Lord, the day of His wrath.
Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Exactly. But which return? You claim only one. Well, this has to be it, because it says that he comes as a thief here. That means that the 1st 5 vials have already happened. And you understand that the trumpets and vials happen in the same timeframe.
Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
These two verses PROVE that your doctrine is in error. You claim a one and only coming of Jesus and then you want to claim that you don't have the Church on earth during the wrath of God. Here is the sudden destruction that will be given when He comes as a thief and the 1st 5 vials of wrath have already happened.
2 Thes 1
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Your problem is that we have seen that He comes as a thief at the 6th vail which occurs during the 7th seal. You can claim that the 7th seal is silence in heaven.............but those trumpets inside the 7th seal prove you wrong.
You want to make the day of the Lord 24 hours. However, the Day of the Lord is the 1 year wrath of God.
Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
The day of the Lord is the 7th seal. The Day of the Lord is one-year long. The day of the Lord contains both the trumpets and vials of Gods wrath. The Lord comes after the 6th trumpet is sounded and the 6th vial is poured on the earth. That is when He will come as a thief and sudden destruction happens.
The 6th trumpet and 6th vial occurs towards the end of wrath. When the 7th trumpet sounds and the 7th vial is poured out that is the end of wrath.
Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Here is what the Church can escape...............ALL THESE THINGS................and stand before the Son of Man.
Luke 21
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Actually the context is escaping both the Great Tribulation AND the wrath of God. It is the Church that can escape both. It is the seed of the woman the 12 tribes across the earth that will escape wrath at the coming of the Lord at the 6th seal.
Again. The wrath of God is the seventh seal. The wrath of God lasts 1 year.......it is the day of the Lord. It is not a 24 hour day.
The Light
Well-Known Member
There you are rolling 1 Thes 4 into 1 Thes 5 without identify that fact. You try to make it all one chapter talking about the same thing.
Paul has no need to write to them about the TIMES AND SEASONS of His coming. You want to change the scripture to says TIME AND SEASON.
Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Paul said times and seasons for a reason.
You are Prewrath then?
Take, for instance, the following, which is clearly something that occurs during His wrath.
Revelation 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Since you apparently have the 2nd coming preceding the beginning of His wrath, do you then think repenting is still an option after the 2nd coming has taken place? Even though they don't repent, that is beside the point. The point is, the fact they don't repent at least tells us that repenting is still an option at this point, except they refuse to do it.
Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
And what about this verse? Why is that verse between the 6th and 7th vial if the idea is that the 2nd coming precedes the wrath of God? Clearly, every single vial from vial 1 through vial 7 are the wrath of God. It even plainly says so in Revelation 16:1. According to Matthew 24 the wrath of God is immediately after the trib of those days and prior to the 2nd coming.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
IMO, there is a gap between this--the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken--and this-- and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And in that gap is where the 7 vials of wrath fit, and that this is involving the day of the Lord except Christ hasn't bodily returned yet, and that the 4th vial, for one, proves it since it shows that repenting is still an option. Therefore, the day of the Lord, when it begins, couldn't possibly be something that is fulfilled the same day it begins, the fact the 7 vials of wrath can't possibly fit a 24 hour period or less. Keeping in mind that the day of the Lord involves His wrath, therefore, the 7 vials of wrath take place during the day of the Lord, yet, His second coming doesn't take place until the time of the 7th vial.
Though, I agree post trib is the correct view, I do not also agree prewrath is the correct view. You clearly said the rapture is 'indeed' before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, except you are indeed clearly wrong about that since post trib is the correct view, not prewrath.
And Pretrib clearly isn't the correct view since the tribulation does not involve the day of the Lord, the wrath of God, to begin with. The day of the Lord, the wrath of God, is after the trib of those days, unless one wants to propose Christ was wrong when He placed that era of time after the trib of those days, not during it, that according to Matthew 24:29.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Total nonsense. That verse is not referring to the length of the day of the Lord as you falsely imagine. It just refers to the fact that no one knows the day or hour of His return (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13). There's no particular times and seasons he could point to that would indicate the day or hour when Jesus was coming, so there was no reason for him to write to them about that because He is coming unexpectedly as a thief in the night, which Paul went on to describe in verses 2 and 3.
Paul wrote about the day of the Lord here as well:
2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
The only difference between this passage and 1 Thess 4:14-5:9 is that in this passage he first talks about what will happen to unbelievers on the day Jesus returns and then talks about what will happen to believers. In the 1 Thess passage he first talks about what will happen to believers on the day Jesus returns and then talks about what will happen to unbelievers on that day. If not for doctrinal bias, I don't believe anyone would try to say that 2 Thess 1:10 is not a reference to something that will occur when the rapture occurs. When else would He "come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" except for when He comes and gathers His people to Himself who are then forever with the Lord?
In this passage, Paul also indicates that both the rapture and second coming are the same event:
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Pretribs try to separate "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together unto him" as two completely separate events, but Paul repeatedly talked about them as the same event.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Are you just pretending to not know what he believes? Surely, you know what he believes by now after talking to him about this topic for many years? He's obviously saying, as we amils always say, that the rapture will occur, and then Jesus will proceed to destroy all of His enemies just as passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and Revelation 14:14-20 indicate.
His wrath comes down when He comes, as scripture repeatedly teaches (Matt 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:11-21). Obviously, He will not have come yet as of the time of Revelation 16:15 which is found within the description of the sixth vial. So, why do you have Him as having come already as of the time of the fourth vial being poured out?
You are not differentiating between the wrath of the Lamb (Jesus) and the wrath of God the Father. Yes, Jesus is God, but when it comes to Jesus's wrath in particular, scripture repeatedly describes it as coming down on the day He returns. Why do you not take that into account?
2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Do you agree that this passage describes Christ's wrath on the day of His return? If so, where does scripture ever teach that His wrath comes down any time before that?
Whatever the first 6 vials are referring to exactly, it's not the wrath of the Lamb that occurs on the day He returns. The wrath of the Lamb is said to be at hand already as of the sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-17). Do you really think all the trumpets and vials follow the seventh seal? They don't. The seals, trumpets and vials are each parallel to each other. So, the wrath of the Lamb comes down as of the seventh seal, trumpet and vial. When we amils say we believe the rapture occurs before wrath, that is what we're talking about (before Christ's wrath on the day He returns) and we're not saying it occurs before any of the vials of God's wrath are poured out.
No, the day of the Lord is the actual day that He comes and not any time sooner than that.
2 Thessalonains 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Does this look to you like Paul was describing the day of the Lord as beginning even before "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" as you are trying to claim? It sure doesn't to me. Instead, Paul equated "the day of the Lord" with "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him".
Can you tell me how what you're saying fits with what is described in these passages:
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
You need to do a better job of defining terms. Amils do NOT claim that Jesus returns before the first 6 vials of God's wrath. We say that the rapture occurs on the same day as the wrath of the Lamb (Christ) occurs with His wrath coming down immediately following the rapture.
Are you claiming that you think all seven vials of God's wrath are poured out on the day Jesus comes? If not, then I don't know what you're talking about here. All he is saying is that the rapture occurs and then His wrath will come down right after that. Which is obviously true. He made no reference to the vials of God's wrath and did not claim they are all poured out when Jesus comes, so why don't you get clarification from him on what he meant instead of just making false accusations like this? He only referred to the wrath that is poured out when Jesus comes and that's all, so he is not wrong that the rapture will occur before His wrath is then poured out on unbelievers when He comes.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Definitely.
That's quite obvious. If your posts are too long for them to read then how do they read the Bible? Do they just read one or two verses at a time and then lose focus and move on to doing something else? I just don't get it. I think they are just trying to find an excuse for why they can't refute anything we're saying.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, no, no. No! You are taking Luke 21:36 COMPLETELY out of context! What is described in verses 20-24a already happened in Jerusalem and Judea in 70 AD, so we know He was not referring to escaping those things. We know that wars and rumors of wars and earthquakes and such have happened since then, so He was not talking about escaping those things. No, Jesus was only talking about His wrath that comes down on the entire earth. The context of Luke 21:36 is found within verses 33 to 36.
Why did you stop at verse 27? Look at the verse following that.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Jesus indicated that we would still be here when the things He previously described were coming to pass! How did you miss that? So, He couldn't possibly have been referring to those things as being what we should pray to be worthy to escape. No, He was talking only about escaping heaven and earth passing away (verse 33) and His wrath coming down "on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (verse 35). That is the context of "all these things" we should pray to be worthy to escape.
Again, when it comes to the other things He talked about, He said when we see those "things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.". Why would we pray to be worthy to escape things that Jesus said His people would see come to pass and that would indicate that His coming and our redemption is coming soon?
Wrong. Scripture never teaches this. It teaches that the heavens, the earth and the elements will be burned up on the day of the Lord and that will not take a whole year to occur (2 Peter 3:10-12).
I don't even know where to begin in order to straighten this pretzel out. You are not clearly understanding some of the things I am proposing nor am I clearly understanding some of the things, Amils, such as you and @WPM are proposing. Therefore, all there is to go by are the texts themselves, which I feel I'm doing, and you do as well, feel it's what you are doing, yet we are not even remotely on the same page about some of these things.
For one, if you are correct that the vials and trumpets parallel, that would mean that Jesus was wrong in Matthew 24:29 when He placed the wrath of God after the trib, therefore, meaning Jesus was wrong, the wrath of God takes place during the trib after all. Clearly, some of the 7 trumpets have to be involving eras of time prior to when Matthew 24:29 is meaning. Which would mean that the DOTL happens during the trib since the vials of wrath could not possibly not involve the DOTL. And by making the vials and trumpets parallel is to place the DOTL during the trib, being the point.
The Light
Well-Known Member
I think what you mean is that you are imagining that I have said anything about this verse having anything to do with the length of the Day of the Lord.
1 Thes 4 has to do with the rapture of the Church. Then Paul says there is no need that he write about the TIMES AND SEASONS and then his writing talks about the day of the Lord.
If he was talking about 1 Thes 4 being the day of the Lord he would have said.........but of the TIME AND SEASON.
Again. If 1 Thes 4 was talking about the day of the Lord Paul would have said TIME AND SEASON.
There is a coming of the Lord and a gathering together before the day of the Lord.............seen here.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.........seen here.
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Also seen here.
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
And as we can see, the righteous are gathered to the clouds with Jesus and unrighteous remain on the earth for the wrath of God.
The coming of our Lord, the second coming, and our gathering together unto Him, is the same coming. It occurs at the 6th seal prior to the Day of the Lord.
Revelation 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Also seen here.
Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
And who is raptured?
Revelation 14
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
It is the 12 tribes across the earth...........the seed of the woman that is raptured at the 6th seal. They are singing the song of Moses. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes. The is a rapture of the 12 tribes.
The Church is already in heaven..........Rev 5:9-10.
The woman, Israel, that has fled to a place of protection is in the place of protection.
Revelation 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
There isn't two comings in that passage. You have to force it into it. Once again, you did not answer my question. Where is your tribulation period in that passage?
The Light
Well-Known Member
I told you I day trade and work contract. I don't have time to deal with your massive OP, because if I did you will run and hide and not comment other than to say the next day that everyone is avoiding you. You are never able to address the scripture.
Told you...........put your best point up and I will disprove it. Then put your next point up and I will disprove it.
The Light
Well-Known Member
My understanding is, there is no way in a million years that any of the vials of wrath can be taking place outside of the day of the Lord. And since the 4th vial, for one, proves the 2nd coming hasn't happened yet, though you misrepresented what I said about that, it then makes me wonder at times if you actually understand what you are reading? After all, I did say that the 2nd coming doesn't happen until the time of the 7th vial, yet you insisted that I am insisting the 2nd coming already took place before the 4th vial, therefore, clearly misrepresenting what I said, therefore, contradicting what I said. Purposesly or not, I guess only you and God knows the answer to that.
The DOTL is after tribulation. The 7 vials of wrath involve the DOTL. The 2nd coming doesn't happen until sometime during the 7th vial. Therefore, I couldn't possibly be saying all 7 vials are poured out after He has returned first. What I am saying is, the DOTL is involving an era of time that also involves the 2nd coming, but not at the beginning of it, but at the ending of it since the 7th vial would be at the ending of it. Which might mean passages involving the DOTL are compressed, therefore, giving the impression that the moment the DOTL takes place is the moment Christ returns, when that doesn't appear to be the case when comparing to the the 7 vials of wrath. How can anyone possibly convincingly argue that some of the vials of wrath are not involving the DOTL, then expected to be taken serious?
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Where is your tribulation mentioned here?
1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. T herefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."
This is one final event. This climactic day will catch the wicked unexpected and unprepared but the righteous waiting and ready. We are caught up before the wicked are destroyed with "sudden destruction" and 'none escape'.
There are no mortal wicked left to inhabit your imaginary trib after the rapture.
Why do you not take Scripture literally?
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The Light
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Nothing new there. You have always had trouble being clear.
Nothing new there, either.
And, nothing new here. Do you suppose this will ever change when you consider that you have been debating us about this for probably at least 20 years? I don't think it ever will. We just don't think alike. Yo take a different approach to interpreting scripture than we do, so we'll never be on the same page as long as that is the case.
You need to start defining your terms. Jesus was never wrong. We agree on that. You might be wrong. I might be wrong. Jesus was not. We can agree on that. You do not differentiate between the wrath that comes down on the day Jesus returns and any wrath that might occur before that. Why is that? Or, do you believe all seven vials of God's wrath occur on the day He returns? Please clarify that.
Of course. Who said otherwise? Have you forgotten that we say that Satan is loosed at the fifth trumpet because of our understanding that Abaddon/Apollyon is Satan? And that happens before Matthew 24:29.
What is the basis for you saying this? I showed how 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Thess 2:1-3 indicate that the day of the Lord is a reference to actual day Christ comes and we're gathered to Him. Do you disagree with that? If so, why? If not, then do you believe all seven vials of wrath occur on the day He comes? You need to clarify what exactly you believe about the timing of the vials of wrath in relation to Christ's second coming. In my view, only the seventh vial is poured out on the day He comes.
Obviously, you are correct that none of that is involving tribulation, it is involving the DOTL which isn't meaning during tribulation, but is meaning after tribulation. Which then presents a problem with even your view if, in reality, all 7 vials of wrath take place during the DOTL. You have the beginning of the DOTL involving the 2nd coming though it is not until the time of the 7th vial that the 2nd coming then takes place.
It would look like this. The beginning of the DOTL followed by the 7 vials of wrath, where during the 7th vial being when the 2nd coming takes place. Except you have the 2nd coming taking place at the beginning of the DOTL. That couldn't possibly be correct unless you can convincingly show/prove that any of the vials of wrath, that they are not taking place during the DOTL but are taking place prior to the beginning of the DOTL. How does it make sense that the vials of wrath, 6 of them take place prior to the DOTL, only one of them takes place during the DOTL? Since when does the DOTL not involve God's wrath? Since when do the 7 vials of wrath not involve God's wrath? Therefore, the 7 vials of wrath equal the DOTL, and not this instead, only one vial of wrath equals the DOTL, the other 6 don't.
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