It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[The Light]

You see what we see in the most popular passage quoted by Pretribs: there is no tribulation following the rapture. It ushers in the end and the sudden destruction of all the wicked.

That not what I see. I see the Church raptured to heaven. The great tribulation happens. Immediately after the tribulation of those days the Jesus returns for the second harvest, which are of the 12 tribes as they sing the song of Moses and then the wrath of God begins.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

 

[WPM]

That not what I see. I see the Church raptured to heaven. The great tribulation happens. Immediately after the tribulation of those days the Jesus returns for the second harvest, which are of the 12 tribes as they sing the song of Moses and then the wrath of God begins.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You are twisting Scripture to support your false teaching. There is only one final future coming of Christ. It is climactic. It is the end!

We should recognize: the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. Scripture carefully knits together to show a climactic Coming of Christ at the end. Interesting all these references show us that His return is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet.

Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” His appearing sees “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 describes a ‘last trump’ saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

There is only one last trumpet, it means final trumpet - it sounds at Christ's climactic return. The word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

 

[WPM]

That not what I see. I see the Church raptured to heaven. The great tribulation happens. Immediately after the tribulation of those days the Jesus returns for the second harvest, which are of the 12 tribes as they sing the song of Moses and then the wrath of God begins.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Revelation has several parallels (or recapitulations) covering the period preceding the return of Christ. Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period. They look at different aspects of the great spiritual battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness, righteousness and evil, truth and deceit, and light and darkness. It shows Christ (and His Church) victor over every expression of the demonic realm - over Satan, the beast, the false prophet and the demons. Each parallel winds down with the release of the kingdom of darkness from the abyss restraint before the second coming. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, the false prophet in Revelation 13:11 and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released from their spiritual restraint before the second coming for a little season.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also refers to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

We must first of all recognize, this is the second of seven similar symbolic parallels relating to intra-advent period, each of which take us up to the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern of repeating the record of the same event from different angles is common throughout Scripture on most themes, none more that the glorious Coming of Christ.

The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

The respective chronological views dismiss the correct translation “there should be time no longer” and replace it by ‘there should be no more delay’. However, those who do such are still faced with insurmountable mountains, some of which we have already highlighted. Moreover, this is an undoubted forced interpretation, which must be opposed on several fronts.

Firstly, this is undoubtedly the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ – the end – it has absolutely nothing to do with delaying the days.

Secondly, the King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: “chronos ouketi estai”

‘Time - no longer – there shall be’!!!

Thirdly, the above interpretation of the Greek in this passage is in perfect and harmonious agreement with their consistent usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so in an attempt to justify the Pre-mil theory, and the myriads of goats that their paradigm produces during their millennium.

Also, the interpretation of these Greek words in this passage, in the AV, is in clear and absolute agreement with their consistent usage throughout the rest of Scripture. Those therefore who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming or to support the inconsistent Pre-mil theory. The word chronos in this reading, which is rendered “time” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of “time” or “times” in Scripture.

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

One cannot help but note the finality attached to the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This is particularly striking when you then compare this to the trumpet passages that connect to the second coming of the Lord. The link is unquestionable.

Whichever way you look at it, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with Second Coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.

 

[The Light]

You are twisting Scripture to support your false teaching. There is one final future coming of Christ. It is climactic. It is the end!

Are you forgetting that He comes for the dead in Christ? The barley harvest.
Are you forgetting that He returns for the alive that remained, before the tribulation? The wheat harvest.
Are you forgetting that He comes for the 144,000 first fruits?

Revelation 14
nd I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Are you forgetting that He comes immediately after the tribulation of those days, at the 6th seal? The fruit harvest.

I think you've got the coming of Jesus at the 6th trumpet, vial.....................maybe.

We should recognize: the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture.

Why would we recognize this? When I hear these kinds of statements it is no wonder you don't understand.

Scripture carefully knits together to show a climactic Coming of Christ at the end. Interesting all these references show us that His return is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet.

Yes it does. He comes at the 6th seal and remains in the clouds. He comes at the last trump blown on the feast of trumpets.

Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”

Tribulation is not wrath. The tribulation of those ends and Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest. Then the wrath of God begins.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” His appearing sees “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

The day of the Lord begins when the 7th seal is opened. The wrath of God lasts 1 year. When the (6th trumpet, 6th vial) happens Jesus comes as a thief.

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 describes a ‘last trump’ saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

There is only one last trumpet, it means final trumpet - it sounds at Christ's climactic return. The word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast. Revelation was not written for decades after Paul wrote about the last trump.

 

[The Light]

Revelation has several parallels (or recapitulations) covering the period preceding the return of Christ. Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period.

Exactly. And yet you do not understand what these parallels are. The seal are in order..........1 thru 7. The 7th seal is the day of the Lord. The trumpets and vials both happen in the 7th seal. At the final trumpet or vial the mystery of God is finished.

When you are reading Rev 13 and 14 these events take place in the 1st 6 seals. And as I said, when you are reading Rev 15 and 16 you are back in the 7th seal

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

Agreed. But why do you think the trumpets are prophetic. They are not.

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also refers to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

There is no dilemma. After the 7th trumpet there is a judgement. The millennial kingdom begins when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

We must first of all recognize, this is the second of seven similar symbolic parallels relating to intra-advent period, each of which take us up to the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern of repeating the record of the same event from different angles is common throughout Scripture on most themes, none more that the glorious Coming of Christ.

I read the Word exactly as written and I do not see 7 similar symbolic parallels. Revelation fits perfectly if you just read what is says and do not draw incorrect conclusions.

The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

These parallels are something that has to be taught. You cannot read the scriptures and come to these conclusions.

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

He reigns for ever and ever. However, the millennial kingdom is obviously 1000 year. At the end of the 1000 years Satan is let out to deceive the nations. Just what the Word says.

The respective chronological views dismiss the correct translation “there should be time no longer” and replace it by ‘there should be no more delay’. However, those who do such are still faced with insurmountable mountains, some of which we have already highlighted. Moreover, this is an undoubted forced interpretation, which must be opposed on several fronts.

Firstly, this is undoubtedly the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ – the end – it has absolutely nothing to do with delaying the days.

Secondly, the King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: “chronos ouketi estai”

‘Time - no longer – there shall be’!!!

Thirdly, the above interpretation of the Greek in this passage is in perfect and harmonious agreement with their consistent usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so in an attempt to justify the Pre-mil theory, and the myriads of goats that their paradigm produces during their millennium.

Also, the interpretation of these Greek words in this passage, in the AV, is in clear and absolute agreement with their consistent usage throughout the rest of Scripture. Those therefore who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming or to support the inconsistent Pre-mil theory. The word chronos in this reading, which is rendered “time” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of “time” or “times” in Scripture.

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

One cannot help but note the finality attached to the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This is particularly striking when you then compare this to the trumpet passages that connect to the second coming of the Lord. The link is unquestionable.

Whichever way you look at it, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with Second Coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.

There is a 7th trumpet blown by an angel when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

That has nothing to do with the Lord coming for His Church at the trump of God or voice of God. And it has nothing to do with the Lord sending His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth at the last trump blown on the feast of trumpets.

 

[WPM]

Are you forgetting that He comes for the dead in Christ? The barley harvest.
Are you forgetting that He returns for the alive that remained, before the tribulation? The wheat harvest.
Are you forgetting that He comes for the 144,000 first fruits?

Revelation 14
nd I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Are you forgetting that He comes immediately after the tribulation of those days, at the 6th seal? The fruit harvest.

I think you've got the coming of Jesus at the 6th trumpet, vial.....................maybe.




Why would we recognize this? When I hear these kinds of statements it is no wonder you don't understand.



Yes it does. He comes at the 6th seal and remains in the clouds. He comes at the last trump blown on the feast of trumpets.


Tribulation is not wrath. The tribulation of those ends and Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest. Then the wrath of God begins.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


The day of the Lord begins when the 7th seal is opened. The wrath of God lasts 1 year. When the (6th trumpet, 6th vial) happens Jesus comes as a thief.

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast. Revelation was not written for decades after Paul wrote about the last trump.

I notice that you habitually explain away every single clear and climactic passage because they interfere with your Pretrib teaching. You cannot take any of these texts literally. You explain them away. You then invent terms that are not in the text.

Where is "the barley harvest" mentioned in the NT? Nowhere! Where is "the wheat harvest" mentioned in the NT? Nowhere! You invent these terms and make them different events, you then conveniently insert an imaginary tribulation period between them, and bingo, you have Pretrib. You then build all your arguments upon these invented fallacies. This is the foundation of your argument: an erroneous extra-biblical theory, not biblical facts.

You invent terms that are unknown to the text and insert them into the text to support your error. That sums up your doctrine. It is extra-biblical.

Pretrib is such a manipulated concoction. Your teachers have misled you. It has to be taught to you. You would never find it with an open mind and the aid of the Holy Spirit.

 

[WPM]

Exactly. And yet you do not understand what these parallels are. The seal are in order..........1 thru 7. The 7th seal is the day of the Lord. The trumpets and vials both happen in the 7th seal. At the final trumpet or vial the mystery of God is finished.

When you are reading Rev 13 and 14 these events take place in the 1st 6 seals. And as I said, when you are reading Rev 15 and 16 you are back in the 7th seal

Agreed. But why do you think the trumpets are prophetic. They are not.


There is no dilemma. After the 7th trumpet there is a judgement. The millennial kingdom begins when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


I read the Word exactly as written and I do not see 7 similar symbolic parallels. Revelation fits perfectly if you just read what is says and do not draw incorrect conclusions.


These parallels are something that has to be taught. You cannot read the scriptures and come to these conclusions.

He reigns for ever and ever. However, the millennial kingdom is obviously 1000 year. At the end of the 1000 years Satan is let out to deceive the nations. Just what the Word says.


There is a 7th trumpet blown by an angel when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

That has nothing to do with the Lord coming for His Church at the trump of God or voice of God. And it has nothing to do with the Lord sending His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth at the last trump blown on the feast of trumpets.

I thought your millennium happens after Rev 19?
How can there be time when time shall be no more at the last trumpet? That is ridiculous.

 

[WPM]

Are you forgetting that He comes for the dead in Christ? The barley harvest.
Are you forgetting that He returns for the alive that remained, before the tribulation? The wheat harvest.
Are you forgetting that He comes for the 144,000 first fruits?

Revelation 14
nd I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Are you forgetting that He comes immediately after the tribulation of those days, at the 6th seal? The fruit harvest.

I think you've got the coming of Jesus at the 6th trumpet, vial.....................maybe.




Why would we recognize this? When I hear these kinds of statements it is no wonder you don't understand.



Yes it does. He comes at the 6th seal and remains in the clouds. He comes at the last trump blown on the feast of trumpets.


Tribulation is not wrath. The tribulation of those ends and Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest. Then the wrath of God begins.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


The day of the Lord begins when the 7th seal is opened. The wrath of God lasts 1 year. When the (6th trumpet, 6th vial) happens Jesus comes as a thief.

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast. Revelation was not written for decades after Paul wrote about the last trump.

These are all second coming passages that show the coming of Christ to be the end. All this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" is not in the NT text or are they in any rapture passage. That is what you have been wrongly taught. You are now left holding the baby. You add it unto Scripture to support your false teaching. That is the only way your argument is sustained. It is built upon sand.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Good Morning Brother




Every pre and post-tribber who picks a date is not speaking Truth

Every pre-tribber who said and says "anyday now" is not speaking Truth

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand.

26“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The Coming of the Son of Man​

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Prewrath postrib can figure it to within a month or so.
Postwrath can do the same.
Both are obviously false doctrine on several fronts.
At this late hour, with recent revelation of the significance of Rev 14, and Jesus actually placing his pretrib coming in mat 24, it is strange that anyone would place their faith in the teachers, telling all Christianity that they can sit out the rapture, and just take the easy road to staying carnal as no gathering by Jesus is remotely possible.
This easy road for them, as no preparation is needed towards filling their lamps, no cry of the Spirit as seen in the last words of the Bible for Jesus to come,( as we see it is totally missing in their posts, it is nowhere in their hearts and minds), but the SPIRIT AND THE BRIDE call out to heaven MARANATHA, COME LORD JESUS!!!!!!!.
( The last words of the Bible.)
The parting words of the Bible is in fact the pretrib rapture.
It would even be disingenuous for them to get in the Spirit of the bride and groom

They have chucked even the marriage and the supper into a made up location and time!!
Against the very words of Jesus!!!!!

I just sit here SMH, at their ludicrous beliefs based in hatred and despising of the notion of a pretrib rapture.
I can debunk everything about it with ease.
And yet they ignorantly will not consider facts that make their deal impossibly
All false doctrine has a companion

I call it "the impossibility"
The impossibility is part of the guarantee by the Spirit of God , against false doctrine.
Once that is brought to the table, false doctrine must yield.

But it gets worse.
By not considering the verses I bring to the table, actually should hold postribbers accountable, instead they persist in WILFUL IGNORANCE.

REV 14:14 NUKES POSTRIB RAPTURE DOCTRINE.
MATTHEW 24 38 destroys their hopes.
The 10 virgins causes great revamping of God's Holy Word.
Acts 1 does not phase that Spirit of error
The AC killing all believers is just skipped.
All non believers required to take the mark is another nothing burger to them.
The hidden dynamic of the martyrs under the altar vs the innumerable number( millions beheaded the the postrib adherents are blinded to) VS those martyrs in the general population, IN HEAVEN DURING THE TRIB..All that dynamic goes COMPLETELY over their heads.
The white horses " impossibility " also goes completely over their heads.
Oh and here is the real clincher. Every postrib rapture adherent that I have ever engaged ,has never one time brought up the times of the Gentiles being completed.
That ties directly in to the fact that the tribulation from the white horse rider on down ,is Jacob's trouble.
We see in Romans 9,10 and 11, that God is not finished with his Jewish Covenant people.
The Gentile church, as vividly described in Ruth, is the bride of Christ.
it is so vividly portrayed, that it's impossible to miss...impossibe.
the Jew is the Wayward wife. The Jew is the wife gone whoring. This is another dynamic that just completely escapes them ,and it ties in perfectly with what we can see vividly as the purposes of God.
The whole tribulation Is to plow up the Jew, to get the Jew's heart ready.
To get them in an attitude of humility for Revelation 14, which is the Gathering of the Jews.
Which, by the way, causes them to not even begin to understand the first fruits, which are the 144,000.
It is just a simple fact that they are Jewish Messianic believers AND they are ethnic Jews .
it says so right there in the Bible that they are ethnic Jews, but can postribs have that?
Oh no, they cannot put up with that. And they do every single bit of this with no red flags.

I can quite handily prove postrib rapture CAN NOT happen.
It is literally impossible

 

[David in NJ]

Prewrath postrib can figure it to within a month or so.
Postwrath can do the same.
Both are obviously false doctrine on several fronts.
At this late hour, with recent revelation of the significance of Rev 14, and Jesus actually placing his pretrib coming in mat 24, it is strange that anyone would place their faith in the teachers, telling all Christianity that they can sit out the rapture, and just take the easy road to staying carnal as no gathering by Jesus is remotely possible.
This easy road for them, as no preparation is needed towards filling their lamps, no cry of the Spirit as seen in the last words of the Bible for Jesus to come,( as we see it is totally missing in their posts, it is nowhere in their hearts and minds), but the SPIRIT AND THE BRIDE call out to heaven MARANATHA, COME LORD JESUS!!!!!!!.
( The last words of the Bible.)
The parting words of the Bible is in fact the pretrib rapture.
It would even be disingenuous for them to get in the Spirit of the bride and groom

They have chucked even the marriage and the supper into a made up location and time!!
Against the very words of Jesus!!!!!

I just sit here SMH, at their ludicrous beliefs based in hatred and despising of the notion of a pretrib rapture.
I can debunk everything about it with ease.
And yet they ignorantly will not consider facts that make their deal impossibly
All false doctrine has a companion

I call it "the impossibility"
The impossibility is part of the guarantee by the Spirit of God , against false doctrine.
Once that is brought to the table, false doctrine must yield.

But it gets worse.
By not considering the verses I bring to the table, actually should hold postribbers accountable, instead they persist in WILFUL IGNORANCE.

REV 14:14 NUKES POSTRIB RAPTURE DOCTRINE.
MATTHEW 24 38 destroys their hopes.
The 10 virgins causes great revamping of God's Holy Word.
Acts 1 does not phase that Spirit of error
The AC killing all believers is just skipped.
All non believers required to take the mark is another nothing burger to them.
The hidden dynamic of the martyrs under the altar vs the innumerable number( millions beheaded the the pretrib adherents are blinded to) VS those martyrs in the general population IN HEAVEN DURING THE TRIB..All that dynamic goes COMPLETELY over their heads.
The white horses " impossibility " also goes completely over their heads.
Oh and here is the real clincher. Every postrib rapture adherent that I have ever engaged ,has never one time brought up the times of the Gentiles being completed.
That ties directly in to the fact that the tribulation from the white horse rider on down ,is Jacob's trouble.
We see in Romans 9,10 and 11, that God is not finished with his Jewish Covenant people.
The Gentile church, as vividly described in Ruth, is the bride of Christ.
it is so vividly portrayed, that it's impossible to miss...impossibe.
the Jew is the Wayward wife. The Jew is the wife gone whoring. This is another dynamic that just completely escapes them ,and it ties in perfectly with what we can see vividly as the purposes of God.
The whole tribulation Is to plow up the Jew, to get the Jew's heart ready.
To get them in an attitude of humility for Revelation 14, which is the Gathering of the Jews.
Which by the way causes them to not even begin to understand the first fruits which are the 144,000.
It is just a simple fact that they are Jewish Messianic believers AND they are ethnic Jews .
it says so right there in the Bible that they are ethnic Jews but can postribs have that?
Oh no they cannot put up with that. And they do every single bit of this with no red flags.

I can quite handily prove postrib rapture CAN NOT happen.
It is literally impossible

Good Morning,
Coffee was GREAT this morning! Going to brew another pot for seconds!

Prewrath postrib can figure it to within a month or so.
Postwrath can do the same.
Both are obviously false doctrine on several fronts.

Do you believe that JESUS spoke false doctrine???

Are these words of His Post-Trib Prophecy a "false doctrine"?

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Make absolutely certain you answer the question.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You're not addressing what I said. Are you afraid to do so? No unbelievers survived the flood. No unbelievers survived in Sodom. Jesus said it will be just like that when He comes. And you ignore that. You don't want to address that.


I don't need those things to happen, scripture says they will happen. Have you never read Matthew 25:31-46? That places the judgment at His second coming. Have you never read 2 Peter 3:10-12? How can anyone survive that? But, passages like those are apparently missing from your Bible.

In amil land there are no commas or periods.
The entire end times is a blur.
The entire deal is a FF button,fast tracking EVERY EVENT to the GWT Judgment.
It all happens at once.
Nobody is going to fall for ANY of that friend.
That is the emptiest eschatology wagon ever to hit the trail.

You guys stand on the edge of the grand canyon and ask others to take that ridiculous leap with you.
I will never, ever get on that bizarre page with anyone.
It is silly and ridiculous.
SMH

 

[rebuilder 454]

Good Morning,
Coffee was GREAT this morning! Going to brew another pot for seconds!


Do you believe that JESUS spoke false doctrine???

Are these words of His Post-Trib Prophecy a "false doctrine"?

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Make absolutely certain you answer the question.

You just quoted Jesus as saying after the tribulation that angels will gather the elect from heaven. That is not Jesus Gathering believers from Earth. So do you believe the words of Jesus that after the tribulation the church already in heaven is gathered to get onto the White Horses by the Angels.?
( ahem which is actually what is going on with postribber "only verse" of mat 24 "after the trib")
. Angels gather the saints in heaven to go to the staging area of millions of white horses. Ties in directly to Rev 19, which is the church already in heaven, and is your banner verse also of mat 24 " after the trib"

Do you believe the words of Jesus in verse 38 where he changes the setting to Before the Flood which would be the pre-tribulation rapture,? Do you believe those words of the Bible in Revelation 14, that there is a gathering of the Jews during the tribulation. Not after but during the tribulation? Do you believe what it says in Revelation that every man woman and child take the mark from the Antichrist? Do you believe that everyone refusing that Mark is martyred as we see in two separate places in the Book of Revelation? Are you beginning to see where your deal is completely impossible?

 

[rebuilder 454]

I am responding to your scriptural content - zero. There is nothing to refute. Now, will you address the Op?

Again...no verses as usual

 

[rebuilder 454]

Not so. There are no chapters in the original.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 confirms: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”

Where is your prolonged trib here?

In the amil shreader along with half the bible

 

[WPM]

In the amil shreader along with half the bible

LOL. You cannot answer simple questions because they expose your error.

 

[WPM]

In the amil shreader along with half the bible

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 confirms: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”

Where is your prolonged trib here?

 

[The Light]

I notice that you habitually explain away every single clear and climactic passage because they interfere with your Pretrib teaching. You cannot take any of these texts literally. You explain them away. You then invent terms that are not in the text.

No. You habitually misunderstand many scriptures, such as Daniel 12:1-2.

I'm amazed that you say I don't take texts literally, when Amil is built on spiritualizing the text to make it say what you want it to say.

Where is "the barley harvest" mentioned in the NT? Nowhere! Where is "the wheat harvest" mentioned in the NT? Nowhere! You invent these terms and make them different events,

Did I invent the feasts of God that Israel was told to keep.

You CANNOT understand end times without understanding the feasts of God.

you then conveniently insert an imaginary tribulation period between them, and bingo, you have Pretrib.

No. Nothing imaginary about this verse that you attempted to change because it disproves Amil.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

And BINGO you have a rapture before the tribulation.

You then build all your arguments upon these invented fallacies. This is the foundation of your argument: an erroneous extra-biblical theory, not biblical facts.

You invent terms that are unknown to the text and insert them into the text to support your error. That sums up your doctrine. It is extra-biblical.

The fact that you don't understand the feasts of God is one of the reasons that you do not understand end times.

Pretrib is such a manipulated concoction. Your teachers have misled you. It has to be taught to you. You would never find it with an open mind and the aid of the Holy Spirit.

You never will name these teachers that understand there are two raptures. I went from prewrath to two raptures. Who teaches that?

You are the one that has to be taught. You were taught those imaginary 7 cycles.

 

[David in NJ]

You just quoted Jesus as saying after the tribulation that angels will gather the elect from heaven. That is not Jesus Gathering believers from Earth. So do you believe the words of Jesus that after the tribulation the church already in heaven is gathered to get onto the White Horses by the Angels.?
( ahem which is actually what is going on with postribber "only verse" of mat 24 "after the trib")
. Angels gather the saints in heaven to go to the staging area of millions of white horses. Ties in directly to Rev 19, which is the church already in heaven, and is your banner verse also of mat 24 " after the trib"

Do you believe the words of Jesus in verse 38 where he changes the setting to Before the Flood which would be the pre-tribulation rapture,? Do you believe those words of the Bible in Revelation 14, that there is a gathering of the Jews during the tribulation. Not after but during the tribulation? Do you believe what it says in Revelation that every man woman and child take the mark from the Antichrist? Do you believe that everyone refusing that Mark is martyred as we see in two separate places in the Book of Revelation? Are you beginning to see where your deal is completely impossible?

When the Bible says: "JESUS will gather..." it is CONGRUENT that the Holy angels SERVE the LIVING God

And again:

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
And of the angels He says:

“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”

Are they not all ministering spirits, being sent forth for service for the sake of those being about to inherit salvation?

 

[David in NJ]

You just quoted Jesus as saying after the tribulation that angels will gather the elect from heaven. That is not Jesus Gathering believers from Earth. So do you believe the words of Jesus that after the tribulation the church already in heaven is gathered to get onto the White Horses by the Angels.?
( ahem which is actually what is going on with postribber "only verse" of mat 24 "after the trib")
. Angels gather the saints in heaven to go to the staging area of millions of white horses. Ties in directly to Rev 19, which is the church already in heaven, and is your banner verse also of mat 24 " after the trib"

Do you believe the words of Jesus in verse 38 where he changes the setting to Before the Flood which would be the pre-tribulation rapture,? Do you believe those words of the Bible in Revelation 14, that there is a gathering of the Jews during the tribulation. Not after but during the tribulation? Do you believe what it says in Revelation that every man woman and child take the mark from the Antichrist? Do you believe that everyone refusing that Mark is martyred as we see in two separate places in the Book of Revelation? Are you beginning to see where your deal is completely impossible?

Do you believe the words of Jesus in verse 38 where he changes the setting to Before the Flood which would be the pre-tribulation rapture,?

lol = "Before the Flood which would be the pre-tribulation rapture"

 

[David in NJ]

You just quoted Jesus as saying after the tribulation that angels will gather the elect from heaven. That is not Jesus Gathering believers from Earth. So do you believe the words of Jesus that after the tribulation the church already in heaven is gathered to get onto the White Horses by the Angels.?
( ahem which is actually what is going on with postribber "only verse" of mat 24 "after the trib")
. Angels gather the saints in heaven to go to the staging area of millions of white horses. Ties in directly to Rev 19, which is the church already in heaven, and is your banner verse also of mat 24 " after the trib"

Do you believe the words of Jesus in verse 38 where he changes the setting to Before the Flood which would be the pre-tribulation rapture,? Do you believe those words of the Bible in Revelation 14, that there is a gathering of the Jews during the tribulation. Not after but during the tribulation? Do you believe what it says in Revelation that every man woman and child take the mark from the Antichrist? Do you believe that everyone refusing that Mark is martyred as we see in two separate places in the Book of Revelation? Are you beginning to see where your deal is completely impossible?

What exactly was the 'FLOOD'?

a.) God's WRATH poured out to destroy every living thing that walked the earth
b.) tribulation for Noah
c.) Log Flume at Great Adventure Action Park