The absurdity of Pretrib logic

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rebuilder 454

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What exactly will the gathering up all believers look/feel like if not great tribulation before being caught up to meet the Lord in the air?
Exactly
7 years of great tribulation.
The AC rounds up believers and the rapture happens in those compounds.( pretrib model)
No mid trib
No postrib/ prewrath
No post wrath
No postrib.
Only pretrib fits.
Nothing else does.

....and when in those compounds postribbers will be in their misplaced glory, vehement and spewing " ha ha where is your ridiculous pretrib rapture ???? Ha ha you will be like us superior believers running from cave to cave"

Remember...you heard it here first.
True Christians will lose heart by being rounded up and seemingly abandoned by God and with postribbers whispering I'm their ears to give up hope of a rapture
 

rebuilder 454

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I agree. Jesus clearly said this happens at his coming in Matt 25.



Jesus comes to gather ALL who have believed the Gospel testimony and glorify us then. Paul includes himself in this event in the text and also in 2tim 4.

8 In the future there is reserved for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and longed for and welcomed His appearing.

2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire,

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day , and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

Chapter and verse please.

Jesus said he comes after the tribulation..,

27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming [in glory] of the Son of Man [everyone will see Him clearly]. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will flock together.
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not provide its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And at that time the sign of the Son of Man [coming in His glory] will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth [and especially Israel] will mourn [regretting their rebellion and rejection of the Messiah], and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliance and splendor]. 31 And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet and they will gather together His elect (God’s chosen ones) from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Please show us where Jesus makes a distinction about him speaking of 2 different comings. Chapter and verses.
Nope
No LOF at the white horses.
Impossible
 

Taken

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Hi.
He comes to receive us as promised.
He ascended to the Father, he comes in like manner so that where he is we may be also.

Jn 14
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places. If it were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and I will take you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also. 4 And [to the place] where I am going, you know the way.” 5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going; so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the [only] Way [to God] and the [real] Truth and the [real] Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

This would have to be the promise that 2Peter 3 is referring to. We look forward to a NHNE where righteous dwells.


13 But in accordance with His promise we expectantly await new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
14 So, beloved, since you are looking forward to these things, be diligent and make every effort to be found by Him [at His return] spotless and blameless, in peace [that is, inwardly calm with a sense of spiritual well-being and confidence, having lived a life of obedience to Him]. 15 And consider the patience of our Lord [His delay in judging and avenging wrongs] as salvation [that is, allowing time for more to be saved]; just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given to him [by God], 16 speaking about these things as he does in all of his letters.


What he is preparing for us is the NJ, and it is there the Father will dwell with us forever and we shall see his face.


See above

You're welcome.
May God bless you also.

Thank you…was looking for more specific…

When the Son of Man was on Earth. He was surrounded with those that Believed AND were “committed” unto Him …
His Apoostles and two witness arrayed in white robes…

Acts 1:
[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
[10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
[11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Point being…They continued LOOKING UP as Jesus disappeared from their Living Body’s natural SIGHT…

Since that day…those Apostles have bodily Died….And others as well WHO believed and committed to Him

Jesus “coming” FROM Heaven, IS FIRST TO the CLOUDS….UNSEEN by human eyesight who are ON the Earth…

When Jesus has DESCENDED to the Clouds…we are notified….”WHO” is “caught up” (English term Raptured) UP to MEET Him, in the Clouds..(air)….Unseen by men ON Earth…

1 Thes. 4:
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Those …….. “WHO ARE” IN Christ…His “CHURCH”believing AND Committed…(not all believers and not any doubters or deniers).

This IS they “WHO” are prepared….Like the parallel to a Jewish Wedding….When the Bride IS Prepared for any moment for her “grooms” servant to go just before the groom to call out the Bride from her father’s house….vailed….to meet her groom at his fathers’ house (clouds, lower heaven)….that they be together…

WHEN is paramount…Jesus has Descended….Process begun of His “RETURNING” BUT NOT YET returned to Earth…

The whole world will NOT SEE JESUS….until ….
The Seven Seals….have been opened…
That tribulation and wrath of the Lamb
….
The Seven Trumps….have been sounded…
That tribulation and wrath of the Devil
….
Rev 14:
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Son of Man…significance…IS WHO men ON Earth CAN SEE with their human EYES..

He first came HUMBLED, to Serve.
He has returned…WITH POWER, (which IS Christ) to Separate the Divided….(Non committed believers still living….and Non Believers still living).

WHO is always WITH the Lord, WHERE HE IS?

1 Thes 4:17….the SAME “IN” Christ who were called up to MEET the Lord IN THE CLOUDS.
They have been RISEN WHOLE….body, soul, spirit….which NO natural man ON Earth can see with their Human eyes…

He also has thousands of His holy Angel servants WITH HIM…

AND AT THIS POINT….He still HAS NOT stepped One Foot ON the Earth.

Bit by bit step by step important to reveal the whole truth.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

CadyandZoe

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Please do not go there. There are multiple detailed biblical posts above that you have avoided that expose your teaching. The reader can observe that if they wish.
That is always true.
Just in case you missed them, I'll ask you again.

1. What IS the Tribulation in your view? (Note there is more than one answer, even in this thread.)
2. The end of what? (Your response to Taken: "Then cometh the end.")

These aren't "gotcha" questions. They seek information and clarity.
 

Taken

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[
They didn't answer my simple questions.

They reveal they do not know HOW to hear, read, search, study…

They disagree…demonize an others beliefs….find a scripture that does not apply and attempt to use it as a weapon.

That gaslighting method is nothing new, old and boring.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

WPM

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Jesus “coming” FROM Heaven, IS FIRST TO the CLOUDS….UNSEEN by human eyesight who are ON the Earth…

When Jesus has DESCENDED to the Clouds…we are notified….”WHO” is “caught up” (English term Raptured) UP to MEET Him, in the Clouds..(air)….Unseen by men ON Earth…

Not so!

The narrative says, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

He was received up in a cloud into heaven. He will return on a cloud from heaven. This text therefore obliterates a secret rapture. It shows us that Christ will come in the same literal, visible, and physical manner that He departed.

How did He go?
  • Physically: “This same Jesus….”
  • Visibly: “As ye have seen Him go…”
  • Literally: “In like manner:
 
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IndianaRob

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Not so!

The narrative says, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

He was received up in a cloud into heaven. He will return on a cloud from heaven. This text therefore obliterates a secret rapture. It shows us that Christ will come in the same literal, visible, and physical manner that He departed.

How did He go?
  • Physically: “This same Jesus….”
  • Visibly: “As ye have seen Him go…”
  • Literally: “In like manner:
The point of that verse is that Jesus comes and goes the same way. In Jude he comes with ten thousands of his saints which means he left with the Old Testament saints.
 
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WPM

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That is always true.
Just in case you missed them, I'll ask you again.

1. What IS the Tribulation in your view? (Note there is more than one answer, even in this thread.)
2. The end of what? (Your response to Taken: "Then cometh the end.")

These aren't "gotcha" questions. They seek information and clarity.
I do not look on these as gotcha questions. Why would I?

1. Tribulation = thlipsis

From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

2. The end of this corrupted arrangement and system. This is when the kingdom is handed up to the Father. This is when the wicked are put down for ever.
 
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Taken

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Not so!

The narrative says, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

He was received up in a cloud into heaven. He will return on a cloud from heaven. This text therefore obliterates a secret rapture. It shows us that Christ will come in the same literal, visible, and physical manner that He departed.

How did He go?
  • Physically: “This same Jesus….”
  • Visibly: “As ye have seen Him go…”
  • Literally: “In like manner:

Matters not to me…you skip step by step truth revealed in scriptural knowledge…
Your “skipping” does not alter the truth!

Jesus Descends to the Clouds…”CHRISTS CHURCH” is summonsed UP to meet the Lord…..Before the Wrath of the Lamb….Before the Wrath of the devil…long before the whole world sees Him sitting on a white cloud…AND Before the Wrath of God.

No issue for you. I suspect you will still be ON the Earth as you preach applies to you.
 
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WPM

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1 Thes. 4:
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Those …….. “WHO ARE” IN Christ…His “CHURCH”believing AND Committed…(not all believers and not any doubters or deniers).

This IS they “WHO” are prepared….Like the parallel to a Jewish Wedding….When the Bride IS Prepared for any moment for her “grooms” servant to go just before the groom to call out the Bride from her father’s house….vailed….to meet her groom at his fathers’ house (clouds, lower heaven)….that they be together…

WHEN is paramount…Jesus has Descended….Process begun of His “RETURNING” BUT NOT YET returned to Earth…

The whole world will NOT SEE JESUS….until ….
The Seven Seals….have been opened…
That tribulation and wrath of the Lamb
….
The Seven Trumps….have been sounded…
That tribulation and wrath of the Devil
….
Rev 14:
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Son of Man…significance…IS WHO men ON Earth CAN SEE with their human EYES..

He first came HUMBLED, to Serve.
He has returned…WITH POWER, (which IS Christ) to Separate the Divided….(Non committed believers still living….and Non Believers still living).

WHO is always WITH the Lord, WHERE HE IS?

1 Thes 4:17….the SAME “IN” Christ who were called up to MEET the Lord IN THE CLOUDS.
They have been RISEN WHOLE….body, soul, spirit….which NO natural man ON Earth can see with their Human eyes…

He also has thousands of His holy Angel servants WITH HIM…

AND AT THIS POINT….He still HAS NOT stepped One Foot ON the Earth.

Bit by bit step by step important to reveal the whole truth.

Glory to God,
Taken
Where is your 7-year tribulation 1 Thessalonians 4 and where is your 7-year tribulation in Revelation 14? Where is your 3rd coming?
 

MA2444

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More projection.

I refuse to give credence to all your pettiness, name calling and insults. You have no rebuttal to Posttrib. This is all you have, along with avoidance.

Wilma, you almost sound scripted sometimes, you know that? I knew you wouldnt watch the video because getting to the truth is not your agenda here!
So I actually posted it for others! Lol! Gotcha'!

You can deny deny deny all you want to and it doesnt change the truth one whit.
 
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WPM

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Matters not to me…you skip step by step truth revealed in scriptural knowledge…
Your “skipping” does not alter the truth!

Jesus Descends to the Clouds…”CHRISTS CHURCH” is summonsed UP to meet the Lord…..Before the Wrath of the Lamb….Before the Wrath of the devil…long before the whole world sees Him sitting on a white cloud…AND Before the Wrath of God.

No issue for you. I suspect you will still be ON the Earth as you preach applies to you.
Once again, you do not address the evidence. You do not address the text. You do not address my rebuttal. That is the only way your error survives.
 

WPM

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Wilma, you almost sound scripted sometimes, you know that? I knew you wouldnt watch the video because getting to the truth is not your agenda here!
So I actually posted it for others! Lol! Gotcha'!

You can deny deny deny all you want to and it doesnt change the truth one whit.
This is as old a tactic as the ark: if you cannot attack the message, attack the messenger.

The battle has already been won. It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial.
 

WPM

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Matters not to me…you skip step by step truth revealed in scriptural knowledge…
Your “skipping” does not alter the truth!

Jesus Descends to the Clouds…”CHRISTS CHURCH” is summonsed UP to meet the Lord…..Before the Wrath of the Lamb….Before the Wrath of the devil…long before the whole world sees Him sitting on a white cloud…AND Before the Wrath of God.

No issue for you. I suspect you will still be ON the Earth as you preach applies to you.
More avoidance. That is who are and this is what you do.
 
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Taken

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Once again, you do not address the evidence. You do not address the text. You do not address my rebuttal. That is the only way your error survives.

What you do NOT GET….is Scripture you APPLY to yourself, is true “for you”….NOT everyone else. It does NOT make that which applies to others “wrong or erroneous”.

Some ARE “Christ’s Church” some are … believers, doubters, deniers….AND NOT Christ’s Church.

Christ’s Church…has NO “business”…ON Earth during the trib and wrath sent down from heaven during the Trib…
The CHURCH…is not teaching, preaching, ministering, spreading Gods World….NO appointment to SUFFER the wrath sent upon the Whole World…
ONLY 144,002 …. Men of the Tribes Are ON the Earth Under Gods Protective seal and power…Teaching, Preaching, Ministering the Word of God.

Odd how NOT ONCE have you revealed Christ’s Church being ON the Earth during the Trib & wrath sent down from heaven….what they are DOING…verified with Scripture…. WHY NOT?
 
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WPM

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Christ’s Church…has NO “business”…ON Earth during the trib and wrath sent down from heaven during the Trib…
The CHURCH…is not teaching, preaching, ministering, spreading Gods World….NO appointment to SUFFER the wrath sent upon the Whole World…
ONLY 144,002 …. Men of the Tribes Are ON the Earth Under Gods Protective seal and power…Teaching, Preaching, Ministering the Word of God.

Odd how NOT ONCE have you revealed Christ’s Church being ON the Earth during the Trib & wrath sent down from heaven….what they are DOING…verified with Scripture…. WHY NOT?
See what Revelation actually teaches, instead of what you have been mistakenly taught.

The Church is described as the “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

The New Testament uses the term “saint” some 59 times, repeatedly describing Christians who walk in newness of life. The objective Bible student can quickly discern that this name consistently pertains to true believers in the New Testament.

The Church is described in Revelation as the “redeemed” in Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4.

The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christians alone are “redeemed” through the blood of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:68, 24:21, Gal 3:13, 4:5. Titus 2:14 and 1 Peter 1:18). The unregenerate have not partook in this life-changing experience.

The Church is also known in Revelation, like elsewhere in Scriptures, as the “brethren” Such references are found in Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9.

The Church is referred to in Revelation 17:14 as the “chosen (or elect), and faithful.”

The word rendered “chosen” in the King James Version is the Greek word eklektos, and is the same word used in Matthew and Mark to describe the elect that are gathered unto Christ at His coming after the tribulation. It is the same word that is used 23 times in the New Testament to denote the redeemed, blood-bought, members of Christ’s Church!

The Church is described as “servants” in Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6.

The Church is described as those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14.

The Church is described as “kings and priests” in Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.

God’s people are described as “souls” twice in Revelation, both in a heavenly context, both thus relating to the disembodied saints, in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4.

The disembodied saints are also known as “fellowservants” in Revelation 6:11.

The Church is also described as a “woman” in Revelation 12:1,4, 6,13,15,16 and 17.

The Church is also described as “the temple” in Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2. Notwithstanding, there are other passages in Revelation that could link the temple to the Church.

The Church in heaven is described in Revelation 14:13 as “the dead which die in the Lord.”

The Church is described in Revelation 15:2 as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark.”

The Church is also known in Revelation as “he/him that overcometh” (speaking in generic terms) – Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7.

The saints are described in Revelation 16:15 as “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments.”

The Church is also expressed in Revelation 18:4 as “my people,” in Revelation 21:3 as “his people” and Revelation 19:1 as “much people in heaven.”

Revelation 7:9 describes God’s people in heaven as “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.” Revelation 5:9 says: “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

The Church is also described as “the bride” of Christ in Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17, and similarly as “the Lamb's wife” in Revelation 19:7 and 21:9.

Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14 describes the Church as “they that do/keep God’s commandments.”

The Church is also described as “the armies which were in heaven” in Revelation 19:14.

Revelation 21:24 describes the Church as “them which are saved.”

Revelation 21:27 describes the Church as “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Most of the above are familiar terms used to describe the universal Church of Jesus Christ are found elsewhere in the Bible (Old and New Testament) describing God’s people the Church. These are general terms that are commonly used and perfectly understood by all sensible Christians as describing God’s chosen people throughout the centuries and throughout the nations.

There are many different references throughout the whole book of Revelation to the existence, testimony and endurance of Christians during the tribulation period. These saints are described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

A passage that ably supports this supposition and locates the Christian in the tribulation period is Revelation 14:12-13, which says, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

The “patience of the saints” here in Revelation 14:12 must surely be linked to the “patience of Jesus” in Revelation 1:9.

The means by which these saints overcome the devil, the world and the flesh during great tribulation is the exact same as that employed by Christians throughout history. Those Christians that carry “the testimony of Jesus” in the tribulation are seen to conquer Satan by “the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11), again, confirming their sure unitary position within the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.
 
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CadyandZoe

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I do not look on these as gotcha questions. Why would I?

1. Tribulation = thlipsis

From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
I wasn't looking for a definition of the word, which defines tribulation in a general way. The debate whether Jesus comes before or after the Tribulation (pre- or posttrib) assumes one of two distinct views of the Tribulation period: 1) chronic persecution of Christians and Jews lasting for centuries or 2) intense persecution of Christians and Jews over a short period.

In a discussion about the logic of a pretribulation rapture, it's important to define the term "tribulation" because there are at least two definitions, and possibly more, that exist. Logically speaking, it's possible that the rapture could occur after the first definition but before the second.

This may explain why Christians in this thread are talking past each other.

2. The end of this corrupted arrangement and system. This is when the kingdom is handed up to the Father. This is when the wicked are put down for ever.
In your view does "the end" include the process of abolishing all rule and authority? If so, how long does that process take?
 

WPM

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I wasn't looking for a definition of the word, which defines tribulation in a general way. The debate whether Jesus comes before or after the Tribulation (pre- or posttrib) assumes one of two distinct views of the Tribulation period: 1) chronic persecution of Christians and Jews lasting for centuries or 2) intense persecution of Christians and Jews over a short period.

In a discussion about the logic of a pretribulation rapture, it's important to define the term "tribulation" because there are at least two definitions, and possibly more, that exist. Logically speaking, it's possible that the rapture could occur after the first definition but before the second.

This may explain why Christians in this thread are talking past each other.


In your view does "the end" include the process of abolishing all rule and authority? If so, how long does that process take?
The end is not a process, but the conclusion of time and corruption. It is an event.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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This is as old a tactic as the ark: if you cannot attack the message, attack the messenger.

The battle has already been won. It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial.
Pretrib was already buried in this thread many pages back. After all this discussion, there's still no exegesis of any scripture to be found from any of them.
 
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