It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[rwb]

The interesting thing about John the Baptist is that he seems to fit the description of the two witnesses fairly well, although not quite enough to draw a definitive conclusion. Maybe JtB was a type?

Here’s what I have on JtB and the two witnesses if you’re interested …

Matthew 11:14 JtB is called Elias but in John 1:21 JtB answers “no” when asked if he is Elias. In some kind of way JtB is a single person that represents 2 people, himself and Elijah.

Revelation 11:3 they are clothed in sackcloth. Mark 1:6 JtB was clothed with camel’s hair.

Revelation 11:7 when their testimony is finished the beast makes war, overcomes them, and kills them. Mathew 14:3 Herod puts JtB in prison (war), Matthew 11:2-3 JtB questions if Jesus is the Christ (overcome), and Matthew 14:10 JtB is beheaded (killed).

Revelation 11:9-10 their dead bodies are in the street for 3 ½ days and they that dwell on the earth rejoice, make merry, and send gifts. From Mark 6:29 it is possible that JtB’s body was in the street for 3 ½ days because it was only after JtB’s disciples heard of his beheading that they came and got his body; also JtB was beheaded during Herod’s birthday party which could be what making merry and sending gifts is referring to.

Revelation 11:11 after 3 ½ days the Spirit of life enters into them and they stand on their feet. In Matthew 27:52-53 after His resurrection (3 ½ days?) the graves are opened and the bodies of the saints arose. It is possible that JtB was one of the saints that arose at that time.

We know without a doubt who two of the four witnesses are because Revelation tells us who the "two candlesticks" represent. John the Baptist, a disciple of Christ would certainly be counted as one of the fellow servants among Jews of faith.

Revelation 1:20 (KJV) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Revelation 11:3-4 (KJV) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

I find it interesting that the two candlesticks prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days. That's the same amount of time given in Rev 12 when the woman (Israel of Old) after the birth of Christ and the war that took place in heaven fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God.

Revelation 12:5-6 (KJV) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

 

[WPM]

Attack the messenger.
SMH
Get a Bible and debate.
That hurling of lies about me is pathetic

Wheponizing the Bible against someone you can not honestly debate.

Bring one verse to the table and show me your superior doctrine, or go muddy up someone else's post.

How about actually addressing the Op that forbids your teaching? The bottom line is, Pretribs cannot refute it!

 

[David in NJ]

Attack the messenger.
SMH
Get a Bible and debate.
That hurling of lies about me is pathetic

Wheponizing the Bible against someone you can not honestly debate.

Bring one verse to the table and show me your superior doctrine, or go muddy up someone else's post.

Attack the messenger.

No attack whatsoever!
the LORD only has LOVE for you @rebuilder 454 and so do i = obviously not as GREAT as JESUS since HE alone can love you Perfectly.

Here is the LOVE of God for you from His Heart thru mine to you.
"Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus."

Have i not invited you to join me personally for fellowship in the Holy Spirit, with fresh brewed whole bean coffee and to go fishing with me!

You are NOT my enemy but my Brother in Christ Jesus our LORD.

Let us start with our LORD's direct Prophecy of Truth = Matthew chapter 24

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

[WPM]

1967 + 70 = 2037 In 2037.

And the Pretrib manipulation continues. Every time their theory is exposed and destroyed they move the goal posts. It was a 40 years generation from 1948, which came to 1988. That came and went. They then changed it to 1967. It was a 40 years generation from 1967, which came to 2007. That came and went. They then changed it to 70 years from 1948 - which came to 2018. That came and went. Now you have changed it to 70 years from 1967, which comes to 2037.

Talk about gerrymandering Scripture!

 

[rwb]

I need more than that.

I’m not saying you’re wrong but how do the law and the prophets lay dead in the street for three and half days.

Also if the two witnesses are the law and the prophets then why were they taken to heaven.

Again I’m not disagreeing with you because the two witnesses are the two olive trees and the two candlestick which are most definitely pointing to the law and the prophets.

Also thanks to you and @grafted branch for bringing sanity to this thread! This is how Christian debate should be… iron sharpening iron.

I partially agree with Marty. Only I believe the two olive trees represent the Law & Prophets of Old because the Law was given to point Israel of Old to the coming Messiah. And the Prophets of Old foretell of the Messiah who would come. As I've already shown the two candlesticks represent two of the seven churches that are sent out unto all the earth with the message about Christ, the Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit. So the witnesses all represent the Church as She existed from Old and as She exists from the New.

 

[David in NJ]

And the Pretrib manipulation continues. Every time their theory is exposed and destroyed they move the goal posts. It was a 40 years generation from 1948, which came to 1988. That came and went. They then changed it to 1967. It was a 40 years generation from 1967, which came to 2007. That came and went. They then changed it to 70 years from 1948 - which came to 2018. That came and went. Now you have changed it to 70 years from 1967, which comes to 2037.

Talk about gerrymandering Scripture?

Every time their theory is exposed and destroyed they move the goal posts.

the man-made doctrine of pre-trib must continually "change times and laws" for it is the only way it can survive

 

[rwb]

The two witnesses are symbolic of the Law and the Prophets which point and witness to Jesus.

They also mirror Jesus' life and are killed in the great city where Jesus was killed left for three days and then rise and go to heaven.

I believe the witnesses being killed, symbolizes the very end of time given this earth after the thousand years have expired and Satan is set free for his little season. That's when the saints of Christ are still alive on the earth before being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The two witnesses being killed represent the silencing of the Word of God throughout the whole earth as Gog and Magog surround the saints of God one last time, extinguishing the last vestiges of Light that still remains on the earth through the few saints still alive then.

 

[WPM]

the man-made doctrine of pre-trib must continually "change times and laws" for it is the only way it can survive

Exactly. It is a cop-out!

 

[GISMYS_7]

Those that fight against the rapture get to be left behind and try to live under anti-Christ rule and God's wrath!!!!Your choice!!

 

[IndianaRob]

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I agree! This coincides with the birth of Christ and a war that began in heaven with Satan and his angels being cast to the earth to bring much persecution and death to first Jews of faith, and then to faithful saints from every nation of the earth.

The woman, symbolized as "a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars" depicts Israel of Old. It was through Israel that Christ was born of the tribe of Judah. The woman being Israel of faith fled into the wilderness to escape the wrath of Satan and his angels who were cast out of heaven and to the earth. But Israel of faith overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of their testimony keeping the faith unto death.

Revelation 12:5-6 (KJV) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:10-11 (KJV) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

I believe this is depicting faithful Jews of Old, those souls under the altar who died waiting for the Messiah to come to redeem them. The time of the Messiah came when Christ was born. But the souls under the altar had to wait "a little season" for their "fellow servants" (Jews of faith) and their "brethren" (Christ Jesus our Lord) to also be martyred and Christ must become a man who would give His blood to make atonement for sin and resurrect from the dead to defeat death.

I agree with every bit of that. Nice post!

 

[MA2444]

Why did you use 1967 instead of 1948? And why not +80

I seen that too, lol.

But I think it all depeds who you talk to. How long is a generation, 80 years? 90? 70? I even heard someone say once that it's 20 or 30, when your kids have children so to speak I guess.

So it's something like that, lol

May 14th 1948?

Matthew 24:31-33
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors..../KJV

Does anyone remember when Jews al over the world started returning to their homeland back in the day? I was a kid but I remember hearing about it. The Lord's elect (His people) started returning to Israel after there not being an Israel for a couple thousand years! And you know what happened? Israel sprouted leaves as a nation.

So when you see all these happening in the world, you know the time is getting close. That generation which was alive in 1948 has not passed away, it's just later in the summer now for them, and us.

That's how I learned it.

 

[MA2444]

Those that fight against the rapture get to be left behind and try to live under anti-Christ rule and God's wrath!!!!Your choice!!

Yep. Yikes indeed.

 

[The Light]

Those that fight against the rapture get to be left behind and try to live under anti-Christ rule and God's wrath!!!!Your choice!!

There has to be foolish virgins. It's in the scripture.

How anyone could possibly think that the rapture is after the wrath of God is beyond my level of comprehension.

 

[IndianaRob]

I seen that too, lol.

But I think it all depeds who you talk to. How long is a generation, 80 years? 90? 70? I even heard someone say once that it's 20 or 30, when your kids have children so to speak I guess.

So it's something like that, lol

May 14th 1948?

Matthew 24:31-33
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors..../KJV

Does anyone remember when Jews al over the world started returning to their homeland back in the day? I was a kid but I remember hearing about it. The Lord's elect (His people) started returning to Israel after there not being an Israel for a couple thousand years! And you know what happened? Israel sprouted leaves as a nation.

So when you see all these happening in the world, you know the time is getting close. That generation which was alive in 1948 has not passed away, it's just later in the summer now for them, and us.

That's how I learned it.

Just a reminder that God was finished with the people of Israel at the cross.

Amo 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.

Amo 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

When Jesus said “summer is nigh” he was warning the Jews that their END was nigh.

I have no idea how “summer is nigh” got twisted into the rebirth of a nation but I have an idea the enemies of the gospel were behind it.

 

[David in NJ]

Those that fight against the rapture get to be left behind and try to live under anti-Christ rule and God's wrath!!!!Your choice!!

Who is fighting against the Rapture???

The Coming Rapture is 100% HOLY SCRIPTURE of TRUTH.

Read & SEE 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[IndianaRob]

Who is fighting against the Rapture???

The Coming Rapture is 100% HOLY SCRIPTURE of TRUTH.

Read & SEE 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The coming rapture is 100% pure fiction designed by Satan to cover the fact that ALL BELIEVERS shall not sleep but will changed and taken straight to heaven when it’s time for the believer to leave this world.

 

[Marty fox]

The book of Revelation was written when..............95 AD? When did Paul write his letters? Did Paul ever comment in a letter..........Hey quit asking me what the last trump is. You are going to have to wait 40 plus years for John to get a revelation. He will tell you what the last trump is.

No. There was never any question what the last trump is. It's blown on the Feast of Trumpets. All the Jews know this.

I believe that revelation was written during the 60’s of the first century

 

[The Light]

I believe that revelation was written during the 60’s of the first century

Still after Paul wrote his letters.

 

[David in NJ]

The coming rapture is 100% pure fiction designed by Satan to cover the fact that ALL BELIEVERS shall not sleep but will changed and taken straight to heaven when it’s time for the believer to leave this world.

ONLY pre-trib rapture is the "pure fiction"

Genesis, Matthew chapter 24, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians chapter 15 PROCLAIM the TRUE Resurrection/Rapture

 

[David in NJ]

Just a reminder that God was finished with the people of Israel at the cross.

Amo 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.

Amo 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

When Jesus said “summer is nigh” he was warning the Jews that their END was nigh.

I have no idea how “summer is nigh” got twisted into the rebirth of a nation but I have an idea the enemies of the gospel were behind it.

#1 - The OT Prophets said HE will Return to SAVE them

#2 - JESUS said HE will Return and SAVE them

#3 - the Apostle Paul said HE will Return and SAVE them