It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[David in NJ]

The Pretrib theory is dead. It is time to give it a decent burial. Anyone who observed the debate on the following thread will know how ludicrous and defunct the Pretrib position is.

The absurdity of Pretrib logic

Pretrib was well and truly put to death in that discussion. All Pretribbers had in response was ad hominem, belittling and avoidance (and in Dougg’s case distorted charts). There is nothing that they could do with clear and repeated Scripture, apart from dismiss it, twist it, or ignore it.

All of the arguments that were furnished in regard to the so-called Pretrib proof-texts were exposed and shown to teach the opposite of what they actually claimed. Many texts that Pretribbers presented made no reference to a rapture, a 7-years trib (or any trib) following a rapture. This was shown to be Left Behind fiction. None of the scriptural texts taught a 3rd coming of Christ. This was shown to be an extra-biblical Pretrib invention.

Now it is time to bury the corpse.

I want to highlight some of the extra-biblical Pretrib slants that were placed on the sacred text, and outline the biblical response, which Pretribulationalists had no response to. Whatever angle you look at the doctrine, it doesn't add up and Scripture does not teach it.

You will see as the thread develops how Pretribbers typically do their best to avoid the sacred text and simply denigrate the poster with their usual evasive and insulting responses. The old adage stands true: if you cannot attack the message, then attack the messenger.

Remember: we are going to look at all the main Pretrib "proof-texts." If Pretribbers are uncomfortable with these, and these do not prove the Pretrib theory (as they do not), then the theory is dead in the water.

I know it is hard to divorce a person's beliefs from the person. But this is not personal. I am not attacking Pretribbers, I am confronting what I believe to be false teaching here.

Daniel 9



Where in Daniel 9 does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming? It is simply not there! It has to be forced into the sacred text!

The 10 virgins

Jesus said in Matthew 25:1-13: “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried (the intra-Advent period), they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom; ‘go ye out’ [Gr. exerchomai] to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came [Gr. erchomai]; and they that were ready ‘went in’ [Gr. eiserchomai] with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”



Most end-time commentators correctly relate this passage to the coming of Christ. Whilst we cannot find any mention of phrases like “caught up” or “gathering together” in this text there is broad agreement that there is a definite reference to the catching away or rescue of the saints in the direction “go ye out” and the resulting action – they “went in.”

The command “go ye out” is simply one Greek word exerchomai meaning depart, escape, or get out, go. The phrase describing the response of the faithful “went in” is the single Greek word eiserchomai normally translated in the New Testament as to ‘come in’ or ‘to enter’. It can also be interpreted ‘to arise’. In keeping with many second coming passages there is an allusion to those who escape the judgment of God as being those who made themselves “ready.” This is a common theme found in regard to the catching away. It certainly correlates with the consistent portrayal of this impending climactic event. This passage is basically a call for preparedness for Christ’s coming.

The parable of the virgins actually agrees totally with the climactic nature of the coming of Christ. Men are either caught up or caught on. Being ready means rescue, being locked outside means destruction. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture would assist you here. As in Noah’s day, “the door was shut” – the day of opportunity was final closed – and those left outside were totally destroyed.

The solemn side of this parable is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry when it is too late: “Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is exactly what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: ‘welcome to a 7 year tribulation period’ or ‘welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance’. Sadly, they are damned and doomed for all eternity.

In this parable, Jesus rejects the unprepared virgins. In Pretrib theology it does not have Jesus finally shutting the door (as He taught), but, rather, leaving it ajar. It gives the foolish virgins a second chance to make it, despite them being unprepared and despite them having rejected numerous opportunities before He comes they miss the boat.

This passage is basically a call for preparedness for Christ’s coming. It is nothing to do with percentages. Many parables are like that. It is to do with believers and unbelievers. It is describing those that are ready and those that are not. The enlightened will get the thrust. Whether theologians want to apply this to the visible church or to all mankind makes little difference. That is not worth fighting over. It is the overall trust that Christ is pressing up - be prepared.

Obviously, those left behind are unbelievers! Whether they are religious unbelievers, false professors within the visible church, or out-and-out heathens, is secondary. They simply do not belong to Jesus. They are lost. They miss the boat! Their day of opportunity is gone. All they have now is destruction. They are damned and doomed to a lost eternity.

The Pretrib theory is dead. It is time to give it a decent burial.

i STRONGLY DISAGREE

It will be BURNED to ashes and those ashes will be thrown on the dung heap where it belongs.

If you give it a burial, it will surely rise again in the hearts of those who will call it "hidden revelation"..............

 

[Marty fox]

There are two raptures. The grain and the fruit. The barley and wheat together comprise the grain harvest. The barley harvest in the spring is when the Lord comes for the dead in Christ. When He returns for the alive that remain in the summer, He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. This is the wheat harvest.

After the Church is raptured the part of Israel will have its eyes opened. This is the seed of the woman Israel. What do the Jews say after the rapture of the Church?

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The seed of the woman will be raptured at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days. This is the fruit harvest. It will happen at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

Those that enter the secret chambers are those of Israel that flee to a place of protection.

Paul clearly explains that the rapture is only for the changing of our bodies so we can enter heaven and that it happens at the last trumpet. 1 Thessalonians 4 & 1 Corinthians 15

Revelation 11 tells us that the last trumpet is on the resurrection and judgment day

 

[David in NJ]

Ok. LOL. So, where are your proof texts?

I think the law and the prophets is a very good fit for the two witnesses, I think JtB may have represented the final culmination of them preparing the way for Jesus.

In Revelation 11:19 the ark is seen in heaven. The ark contained the Ten Commandments so that might fit with the law being raised up.

Nothing seems to fit good enough that I would try to debate it, so for now I just keep these things in mind.

Why not two actual prophets?

Just like God said.

 

[Marty fox]

Why not two actual prophets?

Just like God said.

See post #299

 

[David in NJ]

Daniel 9:25-26a says, “Know therefore and understand, that from (1) the going forth of the commandment to (2) restore and to build Jerusalem unto (3) the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.”

In the previous verse we have the total duration described as 70 weeks or 490 years. In verse 25 these 70 weeks are split into 3 parts, albeit the last week is still not yet specifically described:

7 = 49 yrs
62 = 434 yrs
1 = 7 yrs

Whilst, the last week is still not fully described we will look at the overall outline at this juncture for a blueprint.

(1) The first part (7 weeks) relates to the rebuilding of Jerusalem. The angel said of the first aspect relating to the rebuilding of Jerusalem, in the first seven weeks, “the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”
(2) The second part (62 weeks) takes up to the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.
(3) The third part (1 week) commences with the start of Christ’s earthly ministry and sees the crucifixion half way through it (3 ½ yrs). The other 3 ½ yrs saw the Church receive its baptism of fire at Pentecost and enter into the fulfilment of advancing the Gospel – the nations now being open to the Gospel, unlike before.

The question the futurists must answer is: is there any division in time between the 7th and 8th weeks?

The answer, of course, is a categorical NO!

Then, what scriptural warrant is there for, in unprecedented manner, decapitating this harmonious cohesive Messianic prophecy, aimlessly and indefinitely projecting the final week 2000 years+ into the unknown to a supposed end-time 7-year period, when it was perfectly fulfilled in the life and time of our Lord’s ministry, especially when there is absolutely NO corroborated in the New Testament for this 70th week gap-theory. As we have already stated, probably, the most distasteful aspect of this corrupt teaching is how they corruptly attribute it to anti-Christ at the end when it explicitly relates to Christ and His atonement 2000 years ago? To be honest, with this form of hermeneutics you could potentially corrupt any Old Testament passage and apply it to whatever time-period or matter one wishes.

The text does not in any way demand a gap; the Futurists unilaterally (without any scriptural warrant and for his own reason) chooses to insert one there in order to support his unsound theology. Those who do or condone such are unquestionably gap-theorists.

The text does demand – “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to (1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to (6) anoint the most Holy” (Daniel 9:24).

These 6 elements must therefore be fulfilled (1) in Messiah, and (2) must come mid-way through the final week. The desolation is not within the 70 weeks, it is the visible result of the fulfilment of numbers 1-6 in the midst of the week i.e. the rendering of the temple’s former use obsolete.

What is the greater abomination, rejecting the once all-sufficient sacrifice of Calvary, as the Jews evidently did (and are doing), or abolishing or rejecting any idolatrous animal sacrifices in an imaginary temple? The Pretrib scenario is fanciful anyway as the temple has been (and is being) built – Christ’s body.

The “overspreading of abominations” was the rebellious idolatrous continuing of the temple sacrifices by the Jews after they were abolished at Calvary (1/2 way through the final week). And despite God allowing them time to repent in the intervening 40-year period (AD 30-AD 70), they stubbornly rebelled. The blasphemous continuing of the old order – the abolished (imperfect) sacrifices – occasioned the destruction of the temple – 40 being a perfect probationary period. When the practicing of the temple sacrifices had reached their allotted time-span, God destroyed them and the temple.

Prophecy repeats it self until the END.

They will be given their empty temple with their chosen messiah who will stand over them.

The LORD prophesied this in His speaking to the uncircumcised Jews of the flesh.

 

[David in NJ]

See post #299

Thank you Marty for the update.

Going to bed now and will look tomorrow.

Good Night

 

[The Light]

Besides, it is written, if they say come look He ir there or in the desert or there, dont go. Stay in your secret place with Hime inside of yourself and comfort yourself with His words, when He said, I will come for you.

Let's look at the scripture.

Matthew 24
25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Jesus says............Behold I have told you before. He is saying that He told us there would be false Christs. The first beast is the 1st seal rider on the white horse. This is the beast of the earth.

Then comes the beast of the sea who was and is not and will come again. This is Nimrod. He is the King of Babylon and the Assyrian. When they say he.........the Messiah.........is in the desert, go not forth or behold, he is in the secret chambers believe it not.

In 2003 the tomb of Gilgamesh was found as the waters of the Euphrates River receded. One week later the United States sent troops to Iraq. You think they were looking for imaginary weapons of mass destruction or do you think they went directly to the tomb of Gilgamesh. According to reports they went straight to the tomb. They also took thousands and thousands of clay tablets with ancient writings. Nimrod will be brought back to life.........cloned. What do you think all these mummy movies are about? They have known for a long time that their god will return.

That's why Jesus gives the warning......Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

The thing that hath been is that which shall be and that which is done is that which shall be done. And there is no new thing under the sun.

 

[Douggg]

In 2003 the tomb of Gilgamesh was found as the waters of the Euphrates River receded. One week later the United States sent troops to Iraq. You think they were looking for imaginary weapons of mass destruction or do you think they went directly to the tomb of Gilgamesh. According to reports they went straight to the tomb. They also took thousands and thousands of clay tablets with ancient writings. Nimrod will be brought back to life.........cloned. What do you think all these mummy movies are about? They have known for a long time that their god will return.

To clone some ancient person, even if it were possible, for the clone to grow up and become of age, say in his 30's, 40's, 50's, to fulfill the bible prophecies concerning the Antichrist/beast king - there is not enough time for that to happen before the parable of the fig tree generation passes away.

 

[The Light]

Paul clearly explains that the rapture is only for the changing of our bodies so we can enter heaven and that it happens at the last trumpet. 1 Thessalonians 4 & 1 Corinthians 15

Revelation 11 tells us that the last trumpet is on the resurrection and judgment day

The book of Revelation was written when..............95 AD? When did Paul write his letters? Did Paul ever comment in a letter..........Hey quit asking me what the last trump is. You are going to have to wait 40 plus years for John to get a revelation. He will tell you what the last trump is.

No. There was never any question what the last trump is. It's blown on the Feast of Trumpets. All the Jews know this.

 

[The Light]

To clone some ancient person, even if it were possible, for the clone to grow up and become of age, say in his 30's, 40's, 50's, to fulfill the bible prophecies concerning the Antichrist/beast king - there is not enough time for that to happen before the parable of the fig tree generation passes away.

If He was cloned in 2003 he would be 21 years old. That enough time for a man of fierce countenance.

He was and is not and will come again.

Nimrod is claimed to be the sun. Every world ruler was claimed to be God on earth. Pharoh, Ceasar, Alexander, Nebuchadnezzar, etc.

And Hitler trying to take over the world used the Swastika, and ancient sun sign.

 

[The Light]

To clone some ancient person, even if it were possible, for the clone to grow up and become of age, say in his 30's, 40's, 50's, to fulfill the bible prophecies concerning the Antichrist/beast king - there is not enough time for that to happen before the parable of the fig tree generation passes away.

And when do you think that the parable of the fig tree generation passes away?

 

[The Light]

lol. here we go again.

Show me where I am in error. show me where the things I said and the verses i used are in error.

You seem to have forgot what the discussion is about. here let me help you

Can you prove this wrong?

Either you can or you can not. I think I have shown at least twice now that this is correct. Can you refute it?

He can tell you that you are avoiding answering, even if you have.

That's about all he can tell you.

 

[Douggg]

And when do you think that the parable of the fig tree generation passes away?

1967 + 70 = 2037 In 2037.

 

[rebuilder 454]

he is not post trib, he would be amill or preterist?? I am lost on what they all mean.. but he is not post trib which is a premil belief

He opposes pretrib rapture

 

[rwb]

Agree for the most part. And that means the fifth seal was opened at the crucifixtion of Christ.

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I agree! This coincides with the birth of Christ and a war that began in heaven with Satan and his angels being cast to the earth to bring much persecution and death to first Jews of faith, and then to faithful saints from every nation of the earth.

The woman, symbolized as "a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars" depicts Israel of Old. It was through Israel that Christ was born of the tribe of Judah. The woman being Israel of faith fled into the wilderness to escape the wrath of Satan and his angels who were cast out of heaven and to the earth. But Israel of faith overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of their testimony keeping the faith unto death.

Revelation 12:5-6 (KJV) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:10-11 (KJV) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

I believe this is depicting faithful Jews of Old, those souls under the altar who died waiting for the Messiah to come to redeem them. The time of the Messiah came when Christ was born. But the souls under the altar had to wait "a little season" for their "fellow servants" (Jews of faith) and their "brethren" (Christ Jesus our Lord) to also be martyred and Christ must become a man who would give His blood to make atonement for sin and resurrect from the dead to defeat death.

 

[The Light]

1967 + 70 = 2037 In 2037.

Why did you use 1967 instead of 1948? And why not +80

 

[David in NJ]

He opposes pretrib rapture

It is always of GOD and GOOD to Oppose a lie: pre-trib rapture.

Especially one that never came out of the Mouth of God and yet it lifts itself up in opposition to TRUTH, dividing the Body of Christ.

These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.

 

[rwb]

Yea, I think that’s right, the souls ask the question in what seems to be a group effort. The question could’ve been asked when Jesus was in the heart of the earth, just after being crucified or the question might have been asked by those in the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection.

Either way it seems to fit the timing of the cross.

I believe the timing coincides with the birth of Jesus. The "little season" depicting the time "a thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Rev 12:6) when the woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God (Church?). Btw I don't view the times written in the Revelation to be literal times, I believe all the times fall within the symbolic time "a thousand years".

 

[rwb]

I never thought of that but that is highly likely the OT saints asking Jesus how long.

I think the fellow servants to be killed would likely be people like John the Baptist.

Yes, John the Baptist would be among the "fellow servants" and "their brethren" Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It is always of GOD and GOOD to Oppose a lie: pre-trib rapture.

Especially one that never came out of the Mouth of God and yet it lifts itself up in opposition to TRUTH, dividing the Body of Christ.

These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.

Attack the messenger.
SMH
Get a Bible and debate.
That hurling of lies about me is pathetic

Wheponizing the Bible against someone you can not honestly debate.

Bring one verse to the table and show me your superior doctrine, or go muddy up someone else's post.